Title: 30 Issues in 30 Days: Taxing the Wealthy in New York State

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Brian: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning and happy Monday, everybody. It happened, and you've probably heard it by now. Mayor Adams announced yesterday afternoon that he is dropping his bid for re-election. The plot thickens, with only two candidates now running against Democratic nominee, Zohran Mamdani. The presumption has been that Adams, along with Republican Curtis Sliwa and third-party candidate Andrew Cuomo, who lost the primary to Mamdani, were all splitting the voters Mamdani doesn't have.

Later this hour, we'll do a dedicated segment on Adams and the new politics of the mayoral race with the really, really, really good reporter Katie Honan from the news organization, THE CITY. We'll also get some reaction now from our first two guests, who are really here for something else. Democratic State Senator Jabari Brisport and Republican Assemblymember Alec Brook-Krasny are really here today for our installment today of our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. Today it's issue 6 on day 6: "Should New York raise corporate taxes and personal taxes, the personal taxes on incomes over $1 million?" They will debate that Zohran Mamdani proposal. We'll get their thoughts on Adams dropping out first in a little more detail.

Our guests are Democratic State Senator Jabari Brisport, whose district includes, hope I have the neighborhoods right, all or parts of Bedford-Stuyvesant, Clinton Hill, Fort Greene, Ocean Hill, Crown Heights, Prospect Heights, downtown Brooklyn, Bushwick, and Brownsville, and Republican Assemblyman Alec Brook-Krasny, whose district includes all or parts of Bay Ridge, Coney Island, Seagate, Bath Beach, Brighton Beach, Dyker Heights, and Gravesend. Assemblyman Brook-Krasny, Senator Brisport, I hope I got all the neighborhoods right. Correct me if I didn't, and thanks very much for engaging in our 30 Issues in 30 Days series. Welcome to WNYC today.

Senator Brisport: Thank you, Brian. That was pretty comprehensive.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Good morning, Brian. Good morning, Senator. Good morning, good people.

Brian: The mayoral race, Senator Brisport, first, I know you're a Mamdani supporter, but some of the neighborhoods in your district are places where Adams was running the strongest within his limited numbers, and always had the most support, parts of central Brooklyn, for example. Why do you think that was?

Senator Brisport: Eric Adams did a lot of strong retail politics in faith-based institutions, and also just had a really good, strong name recognition from his time as borough president. When I spoke with people, they saw him as a familiar face in 2021, as to why they were voting for him.

Brian: He was the Brooklyn borough president. Demographically, the recent New York Times/Siena poll found that, despite a high disapproval rate overall, Adams still had more approval than disapproval among black voters in the city, high 40s to low 40s, and that most of his remaining supporters would probably veer toward Cuomo. Why do you think that is, rather than favor Mamdani in that part of the electorate, with the new coalition that he assembled for the primary and so far in the polls for November?

Senator Brisport: Again, when you talk to these Adams supporters or Cuomo supporters, they really like these candidates for what they stand for. They may not even tell you what these candidates stand for. They will tell you that they know them, that they are familiar, and that they've seen them in office before.

Brian: Assemblyman Brook-Krasny, I know you're one of those former Democrats, now a Republican, who says you didn't leave the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party left you, and we'll let you get into that in some detail in the context of Mamdani as a socialist when we talk about taxes. Back during the mayoral campaign of '21, you were running for city council as a Democrat at that time, and I actually don't know the history. Did you support Eric Adams or Curtis Sliwa in that race four years ago?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: In that race, I believe I was supporting Eric Adams. He is the friend for many years. Running as a Democrat in 2021, I just realized that I don't belong to that party anymore. The party just left me to the left [laughs] so much that by the end of that campaign, right after I finished that campaign, I became a Republican. Yes?

Brian: No, go ahead.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: It's just that I think that Democratic Party just went to the left to the degree that I can't belong to that party anymore. It's a party of Democratic Socialists now.

Brian: Were you supporting Sliwa over Adams, even in this race? Did you consider Eric Adams as one of those veering to the left? Because I think you had already endorsed Sliwa, correct me if I'm wrong.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Yes, I already endorsed Sliwa. I believe that Sliwa is a common-sense candidate, and New York does not need socialism. New York demands public safety and quality of life, and that's what Curtis Sliwa is about. Curtis Sliwa actually never had a chance to have an elected office. I think it's time for him because he's done so much for the city as the head of a great organization, and I think he deserves--

Brian: Go ahead. You think he deserves a chance. That's what you're saying, right?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Absolutely. He deserves the chance because for 47 years, he was the head of Guardian Angels. Now it's 50 different countries. It's proven to be a wonderful organization, helping people. He helped me a lot in Coney Island area 20 years ago. I think he now deserve a chance to run the city.

Brian: Do you want Sliwa to consider dropping out next, even with your nice words about him, to make it even more possible to defeat Mamdani? If the polls are right, even after Adam's votes distribute, Mamdani probably still wins.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: I believe that Curtis Sliwa is the only one who's running a grassroots campaign versus Mr. Mamdani grassroots campaign. I think that Curtis Sliwa is the only candidate who can actually beat Mr. Mamdani because it is a door-to-door campaign. Now waiting for Mr. Cuomo, who's also a good friend, to drop out and endorse Mamdani because I don't think without endorsing Mamdani, he has any future in Democratic Socialist Party.

Brian: Interesting. Can I get both of your takes briefly on Adam's mayoralty? We know about the corruption allegations, but on policy, on running the city, Senator Brisport, how good or bad a mayor do you think he's been?

Senator Brisport: Really bad. I'm a former public school teacher, and watching the way he treated education, he never saw a cut to schools that he didn't like. Watching him attempt to defund our schools and every single budget process was so disheartening. That was one big attack against him for me. Also, the blatant pay-to-play with Turkey, his selling out to the devil with Trump, regarding letting ICE into our communities in exchange for a pardon. These are all reasons that I call for him to resign, and I hope that's his next announcement.

Brian: Assemblyman Brook-Krasny, same question. How good or bad has Eric Adams been as mayor, in your opinion, on policy?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Brian, can I ask you a quick question first?

Brian: Yes.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Is it possible on your show not to call the president of the United States the devil?

Brian: I don't understand. Did somebody call him the devil?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: [laughs] The senator just said that Eric Adams just didn't fight the devil in Washington or something like that. I don't know. Maybe I [crosstalk].

Brian: I don't know. Maybe I missed the word. Did you say that, Senator Brisport?

Senator Brisport: Yes, I said sell his soul to the devil.

Brian: Sell his soul to the devil.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Now I have my question again.

Brian: Go ahead.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: [laughs] Is it necessary to call the president of the United States a devil?

Brian: Senator?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: On your show.

Brian: You're asking me to censor--

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Is it necessary? [laughs]

Brian: It would take more for me to censor his language in the context of a debate, but you're questioning his use of the word.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: All right. Brian, I got it. I got it. Sorry, interrupting. Eric Adams is a good friend. I think he was a good mayor. I think he's a much better person than he's a manager. I think that was his problem, managing other people. Other than that, on many occasions, he was a common-sense mayor. In my view, he's been fighting socialism and socialists.

Brian: Since you brought up that reference, I think Senator Brisport wasn't necessarily calling Trump the devil, but saying Adam sold his soul to the devil, meaning he made that kind of abstract bargain to save his political skin, potentially by supporting Trump policies that he might not have otherwise supported. Did it look like, if not a deal with the devil, a deal, as opposed to just Eric Adams doing what was best for the city in his view?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Brian, I hope that's what Senator meant to say. Anyway, I think that, and I'm going to repeat that, Eric Adams was trying to work with Washington. He was trying to work with the people on the other side of the aisle, like I'm trying to do every day, because I think that on both sides of the aisle, we have a lot of common-sense people. Unfortunately, I cannot say it's about the socialists, but I'm trying to work with the people who still possess a common sense in Democratic Party.

Brian: I understand. One more question for you on this, Senator Brisport. Adams came into office at what was still very much the heart of the pandemic, January 2022. With the asylum-seeking immigration surge taking place, and inflation and unemployment and crime rates that people can attribute to whatever they attribute them to, largely pandemic-related, most Democrats would say, and he argues, he has been very successful at leading the city through those very big challenges. Would you dispute that?

Senator Brisport: I would dispute that, because again, COVID and inflation are not excuses to cut and defund our public schools. That is inexcusable. When it comes to public safety, Eric Adams focused on trying to get Albany to roll back the very successful bail reforms, as opposed to fighting for additional money by taxing the rich to invest into our working-class communities that need more resources.

Brian: All right. We will take a break, and then do what you really agreed to come on to do. Thank you for giving us a few minutes with your thoughts on the transition in the campaign with Adams dropping out now. What you really came on to do was have a debate on the Mamdani tax hike on million-dollar incomes and wealthy corporations, and we'll have it. Listeners, we'll talk more explicitly about Adams dropping out later in the hour with Katie Honan in your calls. Stay with us.

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Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. It's our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. Today it's day 6, issue 6: "Should New York raise corporate taxes and personal taxes, the personal taxes on incomes over $1 million?" My guests are Brooklyn Democratic State Senator Jabari Brisport and Brooklyn Republican Assemblyman Alec Brook-Krasny. We'll hear clips of Mamdani and Cuomo and Sliwa, all three on this topic.

Mamdani's premise is that it's a small tax hike on people and companies that won't feel the pinch, and the money will help pay to make life more affordable for the New Yorkers who need that relief with things like universal free child care beginning at six weeks of age for those families who want it and other initiatives. Here's Mamdani on MSNBC answering one of the central questions: "Why won't the million-dollar earners leave even faster than they've been leaving already, arguably hurting the tax base more than the tax hike would help?"

Zohran Mamdani: I don't think that these are concerns to be dismissed. These are ones that I have to engage with. Ultimately, as part of the other conversation of how do we win over voters who haven't yet joined this campaign and this coalition, I have to meet with New Yorkers who are concerned about any aspect of my campaign. I have to meet with them who oppose with this campaign because I'm not looking to lead a coalition of those that voted for me. I'm looking to lead an entire city of 8.5 million people. The reason that I believe that we need to increase taxes on the 1% of the most profitable corporations is because of the fact that those are taxes that would then pay for a better quality of life for all.

Catherine Rampell: Only if they stay.

Zohran Mamdani: The reason that I believe that they would stay, because I want them to stay, is that when the Fiscal Policy Institute did an analysis of the top 1% of New Yorkers, they found they leave at one-fourth the rate of other income brackets. When they do leave, they go to other states that are considered high tax: New Jersey or California.

Catherine Rampell: I've seen this study, and I have to say I'm a little dubious because we're talking about a major change in the tax system that would hasten departures that are already happening. Again, we've lost hundreds of thousands of wealthy New Yorkers already.

Zohran Mamdani: We now have more millionaires than we did in 2021 in this state. The reason that I'm confident is all I'm speaking about is a 2% increase in income taxes for New Yorkers to make $1 million or more a year. When it comes to corporations, it's matching our state's top corporate tax rate, 7.25%, to that of New Jersey, 11.5%. That's why I believe that this is both feasible and necessary, but I'm going to meet with business leaders about this. I've already started having those conversations because I do not want them to leave. I want them to stay. The reason I think that we can have them stay is we're going to use this money to create a better quality of life, even for themselves.

Brian: Zohran Mamdani with MSNBC's Catherine Rampell. Here's Curtis Sliwa on that notion of wealthier New Yorkers leaving because of taxes. This was on CNBC last month.

Curtis Sliwa: I was speaking with Governor Kemp from Georgia over the weekend about how Georgia is developing a lot of New Yorkers who are bringing their wealth and capital and business, along with North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Tennessee. What we have to do is slash the taxes here. We don't slash the taxes. Then obviously businesses are going to move because they don't need to be here. You don't need to have a shingle here. For instance, congestion pricing, which affects everybody that works in Wall Street. I'm the only candidate opposed to that. All the other candidates are for that. All that is is another tax to make up for people not paying their fare on the subways and buses.

Brian: Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa. We'll play an Andrew Cuomo clip shortly. Senator Brisport, why don't you take a minute or two to lay out in more detail than we heard in the clip the Mamdani tax proposals as you understand them and make your case that they would be good for the city and good for the state? Then, of course, we'll let Assemblyman Brook-Krasny make his case from the other side. Senator?

Senator Brisport: The Mamdani campaign rests on two main taxes changes. One is a personal income tax on wealthy individuals who are making over $1 million a year, an increase there, as well as a higher corporate tax rate for larger businesses. I would also add just one thing I'm fighting for, which is one of my bills in the state legislature, a dynasty tax, which fixes a lot of loopholes in the estate tax. The reason why these taxes are good is that they are broad-based.

They generate a lot of revenue that can be redirected into working-class needs, such as better infrastructure in the form of free buses, and also better public transit in general, as well as big, bold initiatives like universal childcare, which is desperately needed, which states like New Mexico have passed already, and which have an incredibly high return on investment. These are things that we can use to shore up our New York economy by investing in working-class people and the things they need, and help New York continue to grow and thrive.

Brian: Would you take on that question of people leaving who would suffer this additional tax, especially the individuals?

Senator Brisport: Yes. Sorry. Similar to what Mamdani said, we have seen the number of wealthy people in New York grow after passing taxes. The reason he brought up 2021 is because we did a tax hike on wealthy individuals in 2021 in the state legislature, raising around $4 to $5 billion new annually. The statistics shows that we have more millionaires and billionaires today than we did before.

Brian: Assemblyman, your turn. Take about the same amount of time as Senator Brisport had there, and make your case against.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: [chuckles] Sure. First of all, again, Senator said a few minutes ago, because billionaires will stay because he wants them to stay. Brian, please don't explain it to me. I know it's a long explanation. Anyway, all of a sudden, it's a deja vu for me. I don't know if you know, but I was born and spent first 30 years of my life in a country called Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, USSR. In that country, the life of the person was totally controlled by the government.

In that country, if you want to leave New York State for Florida, within the socialist agenda, you wouldn't have to, because government will tell you to stay. Brian, these socialist ideas, and when people are talking about it, those people reminding me of used car salesmen. They're selling the same used car that was broken 100 times already in 50 different countries. What they're doing, they're giving up new paint to this lemon, and they're selling this used car again, now in America.

This is absolutely, absolutely impossible to have a socialism in America. This is the country of individualism and capitalism. This is the country for these smart, energetic people. Of course, people who are disabled, who cannot work, they have to get a help from the government. These ideas to raise taxes on billionaires, this is just the beginning. The idea of raising taxes on income tax is just the beginning. Now, Mr. Mamdani is talking about raising property taxes. Do you know about that?

Brian: Go ahead.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Now, in a socialist country, the country is destroyed when socialists are running from other people's money. That's exactly what's going to be happening here if, God forbid, socialists will control the government. Lenin has started in 1917 saying, "No, no, no, we're only going to expropriate the means of production from the rich people." Needless to say, they did not have to use that means of production, so country was in ruins by 2022.

When they ran out of that money, they start taxing people with more than 10 grams of gold, and they confiscated that gold from the people. Then they ran out of that money, and when they ran out of that money, they start confiscating bags of potatoes from the agriculture workers. This is how socialism works. When they're running out of other people's money, they're running after other people's money, and when they ran out of all of those money, country is destroyed, like Soviet Union. By the way, you don't have to go that far.

52% of immigrants coming to New York are coming from Venezuela. What they're running away from? They're running away from a socialist government. What an irony is that? I think that instead of raising taxes, we have to help small businesses to thrive, we have to help big businesses to thrive, because what those socialists will do is not only billionaires one by one, but the whole Wall Street will leave New York City, and the Wall Street is bringing $60 billion to the state of New York, offers $60 billion. If Wall Street will leave, that's the end of every free program in New York City. This is 25% of New York state budget.

Brian: All right. Let me get a response. Senator Brisport, you want to engage?

Senator Brisport: Sure. Without getting into a lengthy debate about international politics and how US interventionism has fueled a lot of the issues seen in Latin American countries, I will say, just to address the concept of using other people's money, that is billionaires. If you reach a status where you have amassed $1 billion, and you have 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 times the wealth of an average person, that's not because you worked 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 times harder or because you're 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 times smarter or found 1,000, 2,000, 3,000 times as many hours in the day. It's because you've exploited a capitalist system in which you have been able to skim off the fruits of the labor of a lot of other people to amass your billion dollars.

The thing about taxes, especially taxes on the rich, it's a way we redistribute wealth back to the people that actually created it. In the case of some of these redistributive policies, bringing that wealth in the form of universal childcare, in the form of fast and free buses, and good public infrastructure, investing in our schools, that is the way we make New York thrive. Again, it's bringing back the wealth created by all New Yorkers that has been captured by the billionaire class, back to them in the form of social programs and public infrastructure.

Brian: Listeners, your thoughts and questions welcome on the Mamdani tax hike proposal for our guests, Democratic State Senator Jabari Brisport and Republican Assemblyman Alec Brook-Krasny, both of Brooklyn, 212-433-WNYC, calls and texts, which have started to come in, 212-433-9692. Let me go to a text right away. We're getting a few like this, Assemblyman Brook-Krasny. A short one says, "This guy comparing Mamdani to Soviet Russia is ridiculous. Ask him about Finland."

I guess when they reference Finland, supporters would say Mamdani's brand of American democratic socialism is nothing like Soviet totalitarian state-owned means of production economics and governance, more like European or Scandinavian social democrats, where the quality of life is generally rated higher than the United States within our capitalist systems. How would you respond to that?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Are you asking me, Brian?

Brian: Yes.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: First of all, it started in Russia exactly like it's happening in Finland, Sweden, England, France, and some other countries, but have you noticed that there are rallies now in France, in Sweden, in England? People are demanding more social programs. They're demanding more social programs because government just realized they don't have enough money for those programs. Yes, it started like in Finland, but then within two years, Finland has decided to break away from the Soviet Union, [chuckles] exactly for that reason.

Bringing the Soviet Union in picture is very important, I think, because we need to understand that the way it started in the Soviet Union, that's the way the socialists in America are talking about now. Senator just giving the sentence of the sentence from something that I learned, unfortunately, in my high school in the Soviet Union, exactly the same thing. Now, when we're talking about socialism and Soviet Union, we have to understand there were some other countries around Soviet Union, who rejected socialism right after they had a chance. Senator, do you know that there was a Berlin Wall in place once upon a time?

Senator Brisport: [unintelligible 00:27:15] about the Berlin Wall?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Now, Berlin Wall was a divider between the socialism and capitalism. Why would you think people would run from the east to the west, putting in jeopardy their lives? In fact, many of them lost their lives on the Berlin Wall, and none of the people would run from the west to the east. None of the people, except for three spies.

Brian: Assemblyman, I guess the follow-up question that a lot of our listeners are now texting is, why assume the slippery slope will be that steep, that by having the tax hike within our capitalist system that Mamdani is proposing, whether you support the tax hike or not, whether this is really leading us to something like the Soviet Union, as opposed to more of a social democracy?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: I just said, and I don't know if you missed that, but we're not only talking about taxing billionaires now, Mr. Mamdani is talking about raising property taxes. Raising property taxes, that's something that's going to really take a quality of money and the ability to pay for a lot of other taxes in New York City from the people who wouldn't call themselves billionaires. That's why I'm talking about the slippery slope. Once you run out of money from the billionaires and the property taxes and income tax, then socialists will find some other tax because they will run out of those money. That's the slippery slope that I'm talking about.

Talking about Hungary and Bulgaria and Romania and Czech Republics, you just go to them now and have your radio show about socialism there. You will have a different text messages from the people. They would tell you that the slippery slope is very, very possible, when you're talking about government that's controlling people and controlling money and trying to take more and more money from the people.

Brian: Senator Brisport, you want to respond one more time to that, and then we're going to go on to an Andrew Cuomo clip and ways that taxes went up in New York State under him. Go ahead.

Senator Brisport: I'll just start by saying it's pretty ridiculous and silly to hear the Assemblymember scaremonger around Zohran Mamdani, leading us to an authoritarian government, when the only administration attempting to bring authoritarianism is the Trump administration. If you look at what they're doing at the federal level, it's pretty sickening. Zohran Mamdani is proposing a corporate tax rate similar to that of New Jersey, right next door. Regarding the income tax on the wealthy, a bunch of them just got a tax cut from the Trump administration, so this would be having them pay back to similar what they already were paying.

Brian: On the tax hike for corporations to match New Jersey's rate from 7 point something that it is in New York right now to 11 point something that it is in New Jersey, Mamdani says it would just make New York the same as New Jersey, so we'd still be equally competitive with New Jersey in that respect. The pushback I've heard on that is that that doesn't take into account New York City taxes, which the cities of New Jersey don't have or don't have as much of as New York City has.

For companies who would be subject to that tax hike in the city, it would be more than New Jersey's tax rate. It would not just equalize it, it would push it higher than New Jersey's tax rate. Do you disagree with that as a fact, and why wouldn't that scare companies that could just move across the bridge, across the tunnel, over to New Jersey?

Senator Brisport: I don't disagree with the fact, but I will add with the corporate tax, it's not something you can move away from. It's not a tax on corporations that are based in New York. It's a tax on companies that do business in New York. It's a tax on the profits that are done there. You could relocate to Jersey if you wanted to, but if you continue to do business in New York, you would pay taxes on the profits there.

Brian: The state did raise taxes in 2021 on the highest personal incomes, I think, to more than 9% on people taking in more than $2.1 million and more than 10%, that's the New York state income tax, on people taking in more than $25 million per year. It increased the corporate income tax rate from 6.5 to 7.25. One stat I've heard from the Citizens Budget Commission think tank is that the top 1% already pay 40% or more of state taxes, so New York already has a very progressive tax. Senator, do you dispute those numbers?

Senator Brisport: I do not dispute the numbers, but I will say we have a lot of people struggling in New Yorkers, and that's why people went out for Zohran by such huge margins. People are struggling to get by, they can't afford their rent, they can't afford their child care, they can't afford their groceries. What this tax code change would do is bring relief to millions of New Yorkers, and for a small percentage of extremely wealthy New Yorkers, they would simply continue to get wealthier at a slightly slower rate.

Brian: Here's a clip of Andrew Cuomo now opposing this tax hike and denying one of Assemblyman Mamdani's campaign points that the only reason Cuomo signed that tax hike in 2021 was the influence of people like Mamdani in the legislature.

Andrew Cuomo: The assemblyman repeated something he said a number of times, that he had to fight me in 2021 to raise taxes on the rich. That is just a lie. I proposed a tax increase in 2021. I never even heard of Assemblyman Mamdani.

Brian: Assemblyman Brook-Krasny, you just heard Cuomo there saying he proposed the tax hike in 2021. How different for you is Andrew Cuomo from Mamdani on the progressive tax politician scale?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Brian, that was one of the reasons I left the Democratic Party, because I see a slippery slope. When Carl Heastie, the Speaker of the Assembly, endorsed Mr. Mamdani, he said when he was asked, "Gigantic social programs, how are you going to pay for it?" Talking about Mr. Mamdani's programs. Mr. Heastie said, word in word, "Plenty of revenue to be collected in New York state." This is scary. This is scary.

I don't know why not you, not Senator, are talking about increasing property taxes, because if Mr. Mamdani will talk about increasing property taxes, I think it will tremendously help my candidate in the campaign. I believe that Andrew Cuomo, who is again a good friend, good man, I don't think he will have a future in the Democratic Party without endorsing socialists. We'll see what happens.

Brian: I admit to being unfamiliar with the property tax proposal. Why don't you lay out how you understand it, and we'll allow Senator Brisport to respond to that since [crosstalk]?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: There was the Mr. Mamdani words few days ago, or maybe even a few hours ago. He said that, yes, some people will get a benefit from it, some other people will be hurt. That's Mr. Mamdani words without any numbers. Go ahead and respond to it.

Brian: Senator Brisport, you're familiar with that remark?

Senator Brisport: I am not familiar with the remark. I just will say that on the campaign trail and on the campaign website in this platform, Zohran Mamdani has been pretty laser focused on taxing the wealthiest New Yorkers in the form of a personal income tax and a corporate tax with the goal of raising billions of dollars to fund universal child care, fast and free buses and investing in new affordable housing construction.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Brian, I'm very sorry interrupting.

Brian: Go ahead, please.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Senator, you are wrong. You just have to Google it and get yourself familiar with your candidate's proposals. The property tax increase will decrease chances of him to be elected, and it would be wonderful.

Senator Brisport: I've never seen Zohran campaign on a property tax increase. I've not seen that or heard that.

Brian: Here's something from a Google search. It says Mamdani has proposed a reform of the city complex and widely criticized property tax system. His campaign seeks to address the inequities of the current system, which often overtaxes working-class homeowners and some rental buildings while undervaluing luxury properties. That is sourced to The New York Times. That could affect homeowners in your district, perhaps positively, I guess Mamdani would argue, Assemblyman, in South Brooklyn. What would you say to that description of a property tax reform?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: The description is wonderful, but like I said, painting the same used car with a different color wouldn't help that lemon. It's a slippery slope. Once socialists are taking taxes from the people, they will continue to take more and more and more. You have an examples in more than 40 countries already. I'm not talking about wonderful words. I'm talking about the possibility what's going to happen as a result of the words of socialists in this country and in this free market economy.

Brian: Given that many middle-class and working-class families have been reported to be leaving the state and leaving the state at a higher rate than wealthy people, from the reporting I've seen, from the stats I've seen, and that the cost of child care is one of the main burdens, as it piles on top of the cost of housing, what would your alternative proposal be, Assemblyman, to deal with the burden of child care on New York's middle and working class families, say, in your district?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Private daycare schools, private daycare centers, private, private, private, more efficient. That's my solution for that. Let me tell you something, Brian, you can sell the lemon only to uneducated consumer, and that's what socialists are looking for. Educated consumer would never be sold to the socialism in this country.

Brian: Senator Brisport, on the private solution to child care.

Senator Brisport: That's the exact model that is failing. Child care has been called a market failure, not just by me as a socialist, but also Janet Yellen. What we are seeing is that the numbers do not work up with the ratios of children that both sides are being squeezed. The workers themselves can't make enough money, and parents can't afford to pay any more. I think the reason why is that child care is education. Rather than reinventing the wheel, we should look at how we figured out universal education in our country over 100 years ago, which is have the government invested deeply and make it free for all.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Can I respond to that?

Brian: Please.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Next time, let's have a show in my district. I will show you great examples of privately owned daycares in my district. They're doing wonderful. You know why? Because every small business is a community service. If private business is not doing well for the community, they will have to close the doors, and it's including all businesses and daycare, especially, because it's not an easy business to run. When it's a nonprofit daycare, then you can't even compare the effectiveness to the privately owned daycare centers. If you need examples, please come to my district.

Brian: What about the people who-- Oh, go ahead, Senator. Go ahead.

Senator Brisport: I was just saying I would be happy to. As the chair of the Committee on Children and Families, I have toured the entire state, and I would love to hear the stories of the workers at your child care centers and learn how much they're being paid, if they are able to survive on that, because that is not the story anywhere in the state right now. The workers are not making enough for people to get by, they have high turnover, and the cost of the child care for the parents are extremely exorbitant. We've lost thousands of child care centers already because the numbers just don't work.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Senator, please, you're welcome at any day to those daycare centers. I know where you're going to. No, people are paid fine, people are happy, people who are working there. Please come over and take a look. Private ownership is always better than the collective ownership. It's been proven so many times in the world already, but I know we don't have time.

Brian: What about the people who can't afford the private tuition?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: First of all, these daycare centers, they do have sponsorship for the people who can't afford. You'll see some of the kids who will come from underprivileged areas, and they're served in those private daycares. It's not what you think, Senator. Please come over.

Senator Brisport: I'm happy to.

Brian: Senator, you're talking about raising the wages on a service that's already unaffordable for so many New Yorkers. How would that help make it affordable, or why wouldn't it work in the opposite direction?

Senator Brisport: By having the government pay for it. Just for the listeners to clarify, I would say, essentially, every child care center you go to is private. That's the system we have now, and it's failing. The solution is to have government invest in the same way we do public schools to invest to make sure that the workers are paid well, and also that it's free for parents because it actually does not work as a market-based system. Like you said, Brian, you cannot make it more affordable for parents without dropping the wages on the providers in a pure market system. You cannot raise the wages for the workers without raising the cost for the parents in a market-based system, so the solution is for government to fund it.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Brian, when we're saying government to fund it, if Senator understand that the money is coming from the people, then when Carl Heastie is saying that a lot of revenue and more revenue to be collected, he's talking about taxing people. There is only one way to increase revenue for the government: taxing more people.

Senator Brisport: The rich people, yes.

Brian: That's what we've been debating as the Mamdani tax hike proposal. One final question for you, Senator. It's a political analysis question. Critics of the Mamdani proposal have said that he'll never get the votes in the legislature to pass these things. Of course, you're both members of the legislature from different parties. He'll never get the votes in the legislature to pass these tax hikes because he would be taxing millionaires and wealthy corporations all over the state to help people in New York City. Why would a person or a company in Westchester or in Buffalo or wherever vote for that? Why would a representative from those places vote for that?

Senator Brisport: I'll say, essentially, every budget for the past several years, the legislature has voted on new taxes on the wealthy, both in the Assembly and the Senate, billions of dollars in new revenue by changes to the personal income tax and the corporate tax. The sticking point has been the governor, who refuses to anger her billionaire donors, who kills those tax proposals in the budget every year. In terms of the votes from the legislature, those are already there, as people have been doing. It's a matter of will the governor decide that working-class New Yorkers are more important than her billionaire donors?

Brian: Your analysis is it would pass the legislature, and it's going to be on Governor Hochul if Mamdani gets elected. I guess we will see. We thank Democratic State Senator Jabari Brisport and Republican Assemblyman Alec Brook-Krasny, both of Brooklyn. Thank you both for engaging.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Brian, not even one minute?

Brian: What?

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Not even one minute for me?

Brian: Do you want that last question, too? Go ahead.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Just last 30 seconds.

Brian: Please.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Even the boss of a Democratic Party in New York State did not endorse Mr. Mamdani. Why? It's not because he supports saying that because of his talent, they're afraid of him. No. The Democratic Party in New York State just afraid that those gigantic programs that he's proposing, he wouldn't be able to pay for it, especially knowing the, God forbid, future mayor relationship with the Washington. This city will lose so much money from Washington if Mr. Mamdani is the mayor, that those gigantic programs wouldn't be paid, and the government of the city of New York will have to go to that slippery slope and raise more and more taxes. This is the reason why the chair of Democratic Party didn't endorse Mr. Mamdani. Thank you very much.

Brian: Thank you very much. I'll let you both go back and forth on that one a little bit because that's a central issue to many people, that President Trump would be so inclined to punish New York City with a mayor, Mamdani, and that punishment comes in the form of withdrawing a lot of federal funding. Senator Brisport, why wouldn't that happen?

Senator Brisport: He's already doing that when Eric Adams is the mayor. We have already seen a federal budget which is going to cut Medicaid and throw people off of SNAP. That's already happening because that's who Donald Trump is. He is a man that wants to sell our country to the highest bidder at the expense of working-class people, irrespective of whether Eric Adams is mayor because he's doing it now or whether Mamdani is mayor.

Brian: There, we will leave it with two sides of that one. Alec Brook-Krasny, Jabari Brisport, thank you very much for joining us today. Once again, we really appreciate it.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Thank you, Brian.

Senator Brisport: Thank you so much.

Assemblyman Brook-Krasny: Thank you, Senator.

Brian: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Again tomorrow, day 7, issue 7 of 30 Issues in 30 Days, as we're doing some on the New Jersey governor's race, some on the New York mayoral race. We'll be on the New York side again tomorrow with another debate about involuntary hospitalization for people in certain stages of mental illness.

 

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