Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. We begin the week by continuing our election series, 30 Issues in 30 Days. We're up to Issue 11, and as we approach the second anniversary of the October 7th Hamas attack in Israel and the beginning of the current Israeli offensive in Gaza, we will compare how Andrew Cuomo and Zohran Mamdani might try to affect the Middle East as mayor of New York. Issue 11. This isn't just about what they say or what they believe.

Both Cuomo and Mamdani tried to use their positions in state government to influence the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, per se. How would each or how should each try to use their power as mayor to do the same if elected? We will speak to a Cuomo supporter and a Mamdani supporter who have taken positions on this, but let's start with a few clips of the candidates as background. In 2016, Andrew Cuomo, as governor, issued an executive order to, as he put it, boycott, divest, and sanction any New York company participating in the Boycott, Divest, and Sanction, or BDS movement against Israel.

Here's part of that announcement before an audience of supporters in 2016.

Andrew Cuomo: Today, I'm going to sign an executive order that says very clearly we are against the BDS movement, and it's very simple. If you boycott against Israel, New York will boycott you.

[applause]

If you divert revenues from Israel, New York will divert revenues from you. If you sanction Israel, New York will sanction you. Period.

Brian Lehrer: Cuomo as governor in 2016. Now, in 2023, before the October 7th attack, Zohran Mamdani, as a state assemblyman from Queens, introduced what he called the Not on Our Dime! Act. Supporters described it as prohibiting New York-based organizations claiming nonprofit status from abusing this status to reinforce and further Israeli war crimes on the basis that settler activity in the West Bank was illegal under international law. Here's how Zohran Mamdani described what people would find in the bill when I asked him about it in a candidate interview on this show in August.

Zohran Mamdani: What they will find is that it is legislation that seeks to align ourselves with international law, international law that speaks about the necessity of opposing the Israeli settler enterprise, which is trampling upon those same tenets. What we've seen is that the Joe Biden administration, for example, put forward a number of sanctions of Israeli settler organizations and Israeli settlers, the same ones of which were being funded by nonprofits incorporated here in New York State.

New Yorkers deserve to have a system of governance that is embodying those values, those beliefs around the necessity of upholding a universal set of human rights.

Brian Lehrer: Zohran Mamdani here on August 7th. Those two clips establish that before October 7th, 2023, both Cuomo and Mamdani used their positions in state government to influence the Middle East directly. Cuomo by trying to weaken the BDS movement. Mamdani by trying to limit donations to Israeli settlement activity. Since October 7th, Cuomo signed on as a lawyer to defend Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu against a war crimes charge from the International Criminal Court.

Mamdani has said if elected mayor, he would have Netanyahu arrested under the terms of those charges. They have said more as well. We will talk to a Cuomo supporter, then a Mamdani supporter. With us first, Jim Walden. You may remember he was the fifth candidate in this general election mayoral campaign running as an independent. He dropped out and endorsed Cuomo largely to stop Mamdani, including on this issue of how, as mayor, Mamdani might try to affect the Middle East.

Jim Walden has been a federal prosecutor here in the New York area, what they call the Eastern District, and an attorney in private practice. Mr. Walden, thank you for coming on for this, and welcome back to WNYC.

Jim Walden: Thank you so much for having me on.

Brian Lehrer: Again, we'll talk to a Mamdani supporter. Second, we will hear from both camps. First, as a Cuomo supporter, acknowledging that he did use his position as governor to try to influence the Middle East with that anti-BDS executive order. Do you think that was a proper use of the power of the governor's office to cut off state business with companies because they held a certain view of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and were acting on it?

Jim Walden: Yes. So Cuomo was not the only governor that did this. This happened in Kansas, Arizona, and Arkansas as well, and it went up to the 8th Circuit, that was the highest court to consider this issue. The 8th Circuit said it was appropriate, and the Supreme Court denied cert, so they didn't review it. The action there was very much-- I don't see it so much as supporting foreign policy in the Middle East as opposed to protecting companies against discrimination.

The New York State and New York City human rights law prohibit the government from discriminating against businesses because of national origin or nationality. These actions, in terms of divesting from Israel, squarely target what's called collective punishment, which the left often decries when we're talking about Palestinians, but somehow it's permitted when it comes to Israeli companies. I do think that Cuomo's actions, as well as the actions by the other governors, was consistent with upholding human rights laws.

Brian Lehrer: A pro-BDS website that I'm going to quote from here says, "BDS upholds the simple principle that Palestinians are entitled to the same rights as the rest of humanity." It says, "Israel is occupying and colonizing Palestinian land, discriminating against Palestinian citizens of Israel, and denying Palestinian refugees the right to return to their homes. Inspired by the South African anti-apartheid movement, the BDS urges action to pressure Israel to comply with international law."

That's a BDS characterization of itself, but that sounds a lot different than discriminating against companies in New York.

Jim Walden: Yes, so I see it a little bit differently there, Brian. The whole idea on the pro-Palestine is not holding individual Palestinians accountable as collective punishment for the crimes of Hamas. Whatever your position of that is, the BDS movement intends to punish Israeli investors and unveil Israeli companies for what they see as the actions of the Israeli government. They're very much similar ideas, but the bottom line is the law doesn't permit the government to divest or sanction companies based on their national origin.

It's just that simple. It's a fundamental American principle. Mamdani's plan to BDS Israel as the mayor of the city of New York is going to go nowhere because it's going to be stopped in courts.

Brian Lehrer: Just on what you just said, my understanding is, because I looked it up, I looked for it, that Mamdani has not said that he would BDS, as you put it as a verb, companies that do business with Israel. I don't see that on his website. I haven't found any clips of it. I found at least one article responding to you, said specifically that he has not said he would BDS companies doing business in Israel or with Israel as New York City mayor. Do you have evidence to the contrary?

Jim Walden: I know that I was sitting in a mayoral forum where the question was asked, and he said that he would apply BDS as mayor, but it's a question for him. I didn't see the statement that you just referred to responding to me. That's the first time I'm hearing about it, but I think he's been very consistent since his college days, even before October 7th, that he believed that BDS was appropriate. I know that at the mayoral forum, he affirmed that.

I hope the media asks him this directly, because if he takes actions against companies because they're Israeli or they're doing business with Israeli companies, that's both unconstitutional and contrary to the law.

Brian Lehrer: Let me possibly correct one thing that I said. I'll try to find it while we're talking. I'm not sure if it was responding directly to you, which I said, which may be incorrect, as opposed to those who say that he would impose BDS. I know he's been saying he's running on what he's running now, not what he said in college or previously, but one other thing on Cuomo here, since you're representing him. We will certainly put the question you asked to our guest from the DSA who's coming on after you.

You can agree or disagree with the BDS movement, but why wouldn't the governor's action in 2016 be a violation in spirit, if not in law, of those companies' right to free speech? Would you want the governor of the state of New York to have a whole list of actions that businesses take as a moral stand, as they see it, that the state will base contracting or other decisions on, depending on the politics of who the governor is at the moment, and whether they think that's discriminatory?

Jim Walden: To the extent that the governor was trying to protect Israeli businesses, I don't believe that as a violation of free speech. Nor did the 8th Circuit when they considered this in the Arkansas case. At the end of the day, people want safety, they want affordability, they want reliable transportation, they want great schools. They really don't want city hall getting into international diplomacy. That's the job of the federal government. I see the BDS movement and the anti-BDS movement very differently.

One seeks to collectively punish companies for transgressions, alleged transgressions of their country of their national origin. The other protects businesses against actions that are discriminatory. Discrimination is defined by national origin and nationality. At the end of the day, this is going to be a seminal issue between the two sides, but Mamdani can clear this up very clearly by articulating with clarity the same clarity that he uses when he talks about freezing the rents, that he doesn't plan to act against Israeli businesses or individuals.

There's a lot at stake here, Brian. There's 5,560 Israeli startup companies in New York City. 27 of them are unicorns, meaning they're valued at over a billion dollars. There's more than 15,000 jobs. If Mamdani comes in and starts trying to take actions to chase Israeli businesses and wealthy individuals out of New York, it's going to have terrible economic consequences for us.

Brian Lehrer: I see you're making an announcement now that if Mamdani is elected mayor and he does try to enforce what you see as BDS standards on businesses, you would take some kind of action as a lawyer, am I getting this right?

Jim Walden: You are getting it 100% right. I will be in court with plaintiffs to get an injunction against any sort of policy as quickly as possible.

Brian Lehrer: Are there things that you, as a Cuomo supporter, now understand that Cuomo would do as mayor or that you would want him to do as mayor to influence the Israeli-Palestinian situation directly?

Jim Walden: The one thing that I know that Cuomo will do-- and just to clarify, I've endorsed him, but I'm not affiliated or aligned with his campaign, I would want him to use his voice to say very clearly to Hamas, "Return the hostages." That's the one thing that's been super frustrating, is for all of the time that Mamdani spends talking about the Palestinians and the plight of people in Gaza, he's not talking about urging Hamas to release the hostages. If he's going to use his voice, I wish he would use his voice to tell Hamas to lay down their arms, surrender, and return the hostages immediately.

From Cuomo's perspective, I hope that he continues the Eric Adams' Israeli Economic Council. That council has resulted in huge investments in New York City. The last time I looked at this, it was something like $26 billion of investment across the city and the state. I think it's been an extremely effective economic council that Mayor Adams created. It has created jobs in New York State. If Mamdani plans to go after anything, he's going to disband that council, and I think that that will be a travesty.

Brian Lehrer: On calling BDS a form of discrimination, listener asks in a text message, "How is BDS of Israel illegal when it was fine with respect to South Africa?"

Jim Walden: I was in college during the whole South Africa divestment movement, so I can't compare the two from a legal perspective. I don't know whether there were challenges. All I know is that when Cuomo signed the order in June of 2016, the ACLU did not file suit. As I said before, the highest court declared it to be legal. From my perspective, there's a huge difference between what was happening in South Africa and what is happening in Gaza. I don't know that you want to get into that, but from my perspective, those two issues are apples and oranges.

Brian Lehrer: My guest, if you're just joining us, is Jim Walden, the former independent candidate for mayor who has dropped out and endorsed Andrew Cuomo, largely because of Mr. Walden's desire to stop Zohran Mamdani from becoming mayor. We are talking about this in the context of our 30 Issues in 30 Days series, Issue 11, how Cuomo or Mamdani might try as mayor to influence the Middle East, per se. We will talk to Jeremy Cohan from New York City, Democratic Socialists of America, obviously supporting Zohran Mamdani with a second point of view next.

Continuing with Jim Walden, I want to play a couple of clips of Cuomo in a candidate interview here in July. I asked him if he thinks this is what the voters of New York want, a mayor who signed on to defend Prime Minister Netanyahu, as Cuomo did on the way he's waging war in Gaza after Netanyahu was charged with war crimes by the International Criminal Court. Listen.

Andrew Cuomo: Do I support Benjamin Netanyahu's strategy on everything he's doing? No, but I support Israel. I think that in court--

Brian Lehrer: Isn't that what defending him as a lawyer against war crimes would be doing, defending him against what other people consider the worst of what he's doing in Gaza?

Andrew Cuomo: As mayor, obviously, I wouldn't be in a position to be defending the prime minister. That's a complicated argument because this is about the ICC, the International Court, and do they have any jurisdiction over Bibi or not.

Brian Lehrer: That clip from the show in the summer, and he hung it on that technicality, as you heard there, of the court's jurisdiction, but presumably he wouldn't take the case if he didn't want to show solidarity with Netanyahu. My question to you is, does it bother you, and why shouldn't it bother voters, in your opinion, that Cuomo, less than a year ago, knowing he might run for mayor, signed on as a lawyer to defend Netanyahu on the way he's waging war in Gaza?

Jim Walden: I'm not here to speak to whether it should bother people or not. I think that I see what's happened in Gaza in a very different way. We had the DSA rallying against Israel and in support of Hamas on October 8th, the day after these atrocities. I agree with--

Brian Lehrer: Have since said, just to be factual, that they were not supporting Hamas's October 7th attack. They were saying that Israel was responsible in various ways for the conditions that may have led to it. They clarified that they denounced those at that same Times Square rally who were supporting the attack, per se, just to be factual.

Jim Walden: I take your point, and I give them credit that they did walk it back, but they did promote and endorse the rally before the rally took place. Be that as it may, I agree with the governor's distinction that signing up as a lawyer to defend him from the ICC is not the same as agreeing with every strategic decision that Netanyahu and his government has made. I'll say as often as I can, this was a war that Hamas started with one of the most brutal, atrocious campaigns against civilians.

Rape, pillaging, strangling kids with bare hands, killing families intentionally, and then taking hostages for almost two years. The way that Israel has conducted the war has resulted in one of the lowest civilian-to-combatant casualty rates in modern warfare. While it is tragic, it was started by Hamas. If someone had come to me and said, "Will you defend Benjamin Netanyahu from the ICC?" I would have looked at it very much the same way as the governor.

Brian Lehrer: I know people will argue that point that you just stated about civilian-to-combatant casualty ratios, but we're not going to get into it here. I would just point out that people will be very much in disagreement about that. As a matter of politics on how the war has been waged and judging Netanyahu, you've probably seen the recent polls. A New York Times/Siena College poll found Americans sympathizing with Israel over Palestinians in the conflict declined since the immediate aftermath of October 7th, from a 47 to 20% supporting Israel margin then to a 35 to 35 tie now.

With the majority of voters nationally now opposing more aid to Israel, what the Times calls a stunning reversal in their poll, and a brand new Washington Post poll, specifically of American Jews, finds 61% saying Israel has committed war crimes in Gaza and about 40% saying the country is guilty of genocide against the Palestinians. That's a survey of American Jews in the Washington Post. Why wouldn't it be right to conclude that Cuomo is at least out of step with voters on this issue?

That reluctance to follow American, including American Jewish opinion on what appeared to so many people to be war crimes, means he's supporting only a more radical Jewish faction as a candidate for mayor?

Jim Walden: Well, because I think that Cuomo, at the end of the day, wants peace like everyone else. The fact that he and I frankly see the conflict and the responsibility differently than in these polls isn't really the critical issue in terms of even the Palestinian-Israel situation with respect to the mayor's office. As mayor of the City of New York, he has very limited ability to affect these issues. It's mostly about A, using his voice, and B, economic policies that will spur growth. It's not about who's right and who's wrong and whether or not the polls accurately capture support for Palestine or Israel.

Brian Lehrer: Economic policies, if you're talking about, let's say, maybe a mayoral executive order like his gubernatorial executive order, barring, say, city contracting with businesses that support BDS, that's not just about economic growth in the city. That's about trying to weaken a movement that's trying to weaken Israel. Right?

Jim Walden: It is, but again, coming back to what I said before, that kind of order, protecting Israeli businesses and individuals and investors, is consistent with the human rights law. You can't pick and choose. I mean, on the one hand, it's hypocritical for someone to say there shouldn't be collective punishment against Palestinians for the crimes of Hamas, but at the same time say, "But we can use collective punishment to suppress Israeli companies and investors and chase them out of the city." That's just pure hypocrisy from my standpoint.

Brian Lehrer: All right, and we'll get another point of view on that from Jeremy Cohan from DSA when we talk in part two of this segment to a Mamdani supporter around this issue. One more Cuomo clip. Apparently, neither he nor Mamdani support a two-state solution at the moment. We know Mamdani doesn't believe there should be a Jewish state of Israel, per se. I asked Cuomo about this in that interview here in July, and here's how that went. Mr. Mamdani is taking heat for not supporting Israel as a Jewish state.

Do you support a two-state solution, which Mr. Netanyahu does not?

Andrew Cuomo: I support peace in the Middle East. I do not endorse anyone's strategy. That's for the Prime Minister of Israel. I don't endorse his strategy one way or the other. I just want peace on both sides. Anything I can do to facilitate that, I support the state of Israel. I support the state of Israel as a Jewish state, but that is it. It is very--

Brian Lehrer: You won't say you support a two-state solution?

Andrew Cuomo: I don't think it's my place to say what solution I would solicit or advocate or not.

Brian Lehrer: Cuomo here in July. Jim Netanyahu opposes a Palestinian state. He's been so vociferous about that, including recently. Cuomo there refuses to draw any contrast with Netanyahu. Are you arguing that makes him more morally qualified to run New York as it relates to the issue of a two-state peace than Mamdani?

Jim Walden: No. Frankly, I think that he should do what Bill Clinton did and what Mayor Dinkins did, which is support the two-state solution. Palestinians have a right to self-determination as well. This goes back to the original UN Declaration back in 1947 or '48, splitting the territories. Let's be candid about history here. Palestine could have had its own state several times and walked away for various reasons. There are plenty of big thinkers that believe that Hamas doesn't really want or care about having its own state.

The Palestinian people do. They deserve it. I think that the governor would be wise to support the two-state solution as the best path to peace.

Brian Lehrer: You differ with him on that. One more thing. According to Cuomo's campaign website, he would pass a law codifying the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, IHRA, definition of antisemitism into the city human rights law. Now, as you probably know, what makes that version of an antisemitism definition controversial is that it goes further than others in equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Should the voters of New York want a mayor trying to make it illegal, in effect, because he talked about in that post that I read from his website, codifying it into the city's human rights law?

Should the voters of New York want a mayor trying to make it illegal, in effect, to advocate for a single democratic nation in the Middle East? Agree or disagree with that position, but to pass a law codifying that it's antisemitic to believe that?

Jim Walden: I think the IHRA definition is a little bit more complicated. It clearly says that criticizing Israel is not per se antisemitism. What it does is to say that when you hold Israel to different standards than you do to other countries, that is an indication of antisemitism. So the IHRA definition has been adopted by 40 different countries. It is the operative definition of antisemitism in the European Union. I believe it is the appropriate definition of antisemitism. Oftentimes, listen, Brian, we have to just be honest about this.

There are ethnic cleansing, massacres, and campaigns occurring all across the globe. If you look at the top 20, what's happening in Gaza, even if you consider it ethnic cleansing, doesn't make the list. Many of these are ongoing, and yet we have people that always focus on Israel and Palestine, Israel and Palestine, and are completely silent when it comes to all the different genocides going on right now, even in Nigeria, with Christians being slaughtered in the tens of thousands.

When I hear these voices that are only focused on Israel and Palestine say nothing about travesties occurring in other parts of the globe, I think it's not unreasonable to think that they care more about Jews killing Muslims than Muslims being killed, or subjugated, or gang-raped in China.

Brian Lehrer: I will put that double standard question to our guest from the DSA next. Do you actually think that even if critics of Israel were equally denouncing all the other horrors that were going on in the world, that the IHRA definition of antisemitism would still not apply? Don't you read it as even if other horrors were to be denounced in proportion to what they are in the real world, that they would call anti-Zionism, per se, antisemitism?

Jim Walden: I'm not sure I understand the question, Brian, but from my perspective, it is antisemitic to be taking the position that Zohran Mamdani is taking, which is other countries can define themselves as Muslim states. They can define themselves as Christian states, but he won't accept the fact that there's one small country on the entire planet that defines itself as a Jewish state, and somehow, he won't recognize that state. That is an indication to me that Mr. Mamdani is antisemitic.

I think that it is really clear that if you're going to pick and choose how people can self-define themselves and only object when the Jewish state defines itself as Jewish, that to me is problematic.

Brian Lehrer: I think they would say that it's one thing for a country that is overwhelmingly majority, one religion to declare themselves of that religion, the Islamic State of something, that kind of thing. Maybe Iran, maybe Pakistan. Different than an ethnonational state is I think the way they would put it, where one ethnic group gets all the rights in a pluralistic society where they aren't even necessarily the clear majority.

Jim Walden: Again, you may know the demographics of Israel better than I do, but I believe it's overwhelmingly Jewish, and that requires a comparison of what percentage there are of Christian, or Druze, or other religions or ethnicities in other countries. I think the whole point of self-determination is that the country, by its political leadership, has the ability to define itself based on its values that include culture and religion. That happens in countries all over the world, but only when it's the Jewish state does Mr. Mamdani say that he doesn't--

He hasn't said this quite clearly, but he intimates that he doesn't support it being a Jewish state. To me, that's a huge problem.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Listeners, we have now talked to a Cuomo supporter there about what Cuomo might do as mayor to influence the Middle East, per se. Coming up, we will talk to a Mamdani supporter about what he might do. Jim Walden, former candidate in this race who dropped out and now is endorsing Andrew Cuomo, partly because of this specific issue, thank you very much for joining us.

Jim Walden: Thanks for having me on, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We continue with that second guest in a minute. Brian Lehrer on WNYC. It's our election series, 30 Issues in 30 Days, Issue 11, how Cuomo and Mamdani might use the position of mayor to influence the Israeli-Palestinian conflict over there. We just talked to a Cuomo supporter, now a Mamdani supporter, and it's Jeremy Cohan, a leader in the New York City Democratic Socialist of America. He is a member of the groups Jewish Voice for Peace and Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, and a sociologist in his day job.

Jeremy, thank you for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Jeremy Cohan: Hi, Brian, an honor and a pleasure. Thanks for having me again.

Brian Lehrer: Let me start here. Mamdani, in the state legislature, as we referenced in part one, introduced the bill he called Not on Our Dime! to punish New York nonprofits aiding the Israeli settlement movement in the West Bank. This was before the October 7th, 2023, attacks or the war in Gaza that followed. This was already a legislative priority for him in his very first few years as a lawmaker before the current post-October 7th period. It didn't pass. Do you think that's what New Yorkers want in their state legislators, in addition to the local issues?

Jeremy Cohan: Yes. I'm speaking on behalf of myself and NYC DSA, not on behalf of the campaign. I'll say, like, the values we fundamentally share is, I think Zohran Mamdani has made super clear that as mayor, he would be governing first and foremost for the interests and the needs of ordinary New Yorkers, with his key demands, freezing the rent, we can all repeat them, fast and free buses, free and universal childcare. He has also said that it's extremely important Americans, New Yorkers, this Jewish New Yorker, want people who stand for something, who stand consistently for universal human values and against war crimes.

The Not on Our Dime! Bill was designed to say, "Hey, if you're committing violations of international law, if you're funneling money to organizations that are committing violations of international law, that are aiming to dispossess people of their land illegally, that are complicit in war crimes, we are going to not subsidize that as New York State. New York State stands for something. We don't stand for war crimes." I do think that so much of the choice, or a decent part of the choice, facing New Yorkers is, do New Yorkers want a mayor who takes war crimes seriously, or do they want a mayor like Andrew Cuomo who defends war crimes and genocide?

I think they want a mayor who opposes war crimes and prioritizes their interests, which Zohran Mamdani will do.

Brian Lehrer: I want to ask you about something that the previous guest, Jim Walden, said just as the segment was ending, to the point you were making about having New York lawmakers who care about war crimes. I'm going to play a clip of Walden from when he was here this summer, when he was still in the race. Of course, as we said when he was on a few minutes ago, he dropped out. He's supporting Cuomo largely to stop Mamdani from being elected. He said in our segment that he will file a lawsuit if Mamdani is elected and tries to enforce BDS.

Here's a clip of Walden from when he was still a candidate on this show in July, saying what some of the impact of that might be on the city and why he opposes it.

Jim Walden: Israeli private equity has about $26 billion worth of investments in New York and New York City. There are a tremendous number of businesses and institutions that also have contracts with Israel. This is an antisemitic policy. Why do I say that? Because he's not asking us to BDS China. China had the most audacious, destructive, violent approach toward Muslims of any country. They've literally locked millions in essentially concentration camps, gang-raped Muslim women, forced them into marriages with non-Muslims.

Why is he asking for the divestment of Israel but not China and all of the other countries where there has been horrific violence against Muslim populations? I've asked that question multiple times. I've urged him to answer that question. I've heard silence. To me, that is an antisemitic policy, and it has no place in the city of New York.

Brian Lehrer: Jim Walden here in the summer, when he was still a candidate, he said something similar as a Cuomo supporter on the show a few minutes ago. How would you answer, first, the last part of that, where, with all these other horrors going on in the world, he singled out China for a little more detail there with respect to the way they're treating the Uyghurs, also a Muslim population? Is DSA your group, and Mamdani as a candidate and Mamdani as a lawmaker, so focused on the horrors that you see Israel committing?

Jeremy Cohan: Yes. I'll say for me, as a leftist, it is fundamental that my opposition to terrible violation of human rights across the world is consistent, is about the dignity and the importance of human beings. I think there is something pretty specious about Jim Walden's position, though, for a few reasons. One is the BDS movement in part originates out of protests against South Africa and apartheid, South African racism in the 1980s, and people of conscience in the US standing up and saying, "Hey, we don't want to countenance this."

It would seem to me quite absurd for people to say, "Why are you picking out South Africa out of all these other nations in the world that's doing terrible things?" A, activists were morally correct to go after something horrific, something terrible. B, I think what's common in the South African case and in the Israeli case in the present is there's active US complicity and support for these atrocities. The US, in the time in the '80s in South Africa, was giving active economic relationships to South Africa, refused to basically use any means of international pressure to force the end of apartheid.

Too, the US is funding Israeli arms to the tunes of billions every year while a genocide is happening against the Palestinian people. I think that gives us a special moral culpability or involvement in the question of South Africa, then Israel, Palestine now. I think just to bring it back to the issue at hand, for so many of us, we are seeing day by day, a genocide unfold in images on our phones. Over 2% of the population of Gaza has been killed in this war. Just I was looking up the numbers just to try and wrap my head around it.

In terms of equivalent population. Imagine almost 7 million Americans having been killed in a war, having been massacred, most of them, according to a leaked Israeli report, 85% civilians, 94 people this last weekend alone. It's just like the sheer level of horror and the complicity of our government repeatedly in the perpetration of this horror. Far from critiquing people saying, "But what about all the other horrors?" we should be admiring their moral courage for standing up and saying, "No more, not in our name."

Brian Lehrer: I'll acknowledge that people disagree whether the word "genocide" applies, but even with the standard that you set, that the US is helping arm the Israeli government, and they're not maybe as involved with other horrors. Back after the Tiananmen Square massacre, there was a big movement to not have most-favored-nation trading status with China, for example. The US still has a lot of trade with China, obviously. To again use the example that Mr. Walden brought up, the US has relations with countries that are also committing horrors.

The other side would argue that it is at least proportionately singling out Israel for criticism and divestment more than other countries, China, to use that example, that are also committing horrors that the United States might also have a relationship with.

Jeremy Cohan: Yes. I obviously support the right to protest and the right to pressure the government to use what means it has to bring to bear, peaceful means, to create human rights around the world, and to support, to stand against crimes being committed against the world. That's what I think in the international court, one of the main reasons we need to uphold international law is so important because everyone needs to be held to some key standards.

One of the things I think, besides the US direct involvement in what's happening in Gaza, the other thing is that so much of the fact that international law is so univocal about how wrong what is happening there is, the fact that American public opinion is also-- even Jewish public opinion is also, as you, I think, said earlier on the show, pretty onside on the idea that Netanyahu is committing war crimes and that what is going on there is horrific.

The fact that international law has been treated just as if it didn't matter, as if it's an empty paper, as if the standards we set to make sure things like the Nazi Holocaust never happened again don't matter when you have enough power to just ram your way through them and commit massacres. That, I think, has redounding effects for every oppressed people across the world. What Israel is doing now, showing the contempt for international institutions that it has been, is creating a situation where we're only likely to see more massacres.

In my view, the opposition to Israeli policy in Gaza is, in fact, exactly about creating the institutions that will prevent massacres in any country of any people for the rest of our human history.

Brian Lehrer: Listener writes in a text message, "Ask your guest if he thinks Hamas is doing horrible things and committing atrocities." I guess the implication of that question is, where's the two-sided approach that even though obviously so many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis were killed in what Mamdani says was a horrific war crime on October 7th, but where's the push for both sides to stop it?

Jeremy Cohan: I appreciate the question. I think I agree with what you just said, Brian, that Zohran Mamdani and I myself have been consistent from day one that what happened on October 7th was a terrible terrorist attack. It appallingly targeted civilians and is to be condemned and should have been brought to justice through the means of international law. What is not acceptable is the Israeli government using that as a pretext for a collective punishment. Increasingly, I recognize what you say, that there is controversy around the term "genocide," but international institution after international institution.

Just recently, the UN Bernie Sanders, in an editorial, along with myself, I'd say, another noble Jewish voice for peace in this country, all these are recognizing that what's happening is a genocide. The scale and the magnitude of what is being visited upon the Gazans absolutely has no proportionality to anything. Using a terrible tragedy and a crime as a pretext to massacre and murder children en masse is an abhorrent political behavior. That is exactly what international law exists to stop.

Brian Lehrer: Further to what Mamdani would do as mayor to influence the Middle East, which is the precise topic of this segment. Again, listeners, if you're just joining us, we talked with a Cuomo supporter about what he would do as mayor to influence the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Now we're talking to a Mamdani supporter about what he would do. When Mamdani was here for a candidate interview in August, I asked him if he would use the mayoralty if elected, not just to speak his mind on the Middle East, but to enact anything like the Not on Our Dime! Act that he introduced in the state legislature as city policy.

Here is some of that exchange. Of course, you would speak your mind as mayor, but my question was about whether you would try to do anything at the policy level as you tried in the assembly.

Zohran Mamdani: I've said that where Eric Adams has taken our city out of step with international law, that is something that I would rectify because I believe that this is a city that should embody those same values.

Brian Lehrer: How, for example?

Zohran Mamdani: This is a mayor who promised greater cooperation with Israeli settler leaders. That is not something that I think advances New York City's interests or the tenets of international law, which have been so trampled upon in so many recent months.

Brian Lehrer: Mamdani here on August 7th. That was essentially yes, Jeremy, he would rectify. He used that word, "Mayor Adams taking the city out of step with international law," as he put it, with respect to cooperation with Israeli settlers. If he's elected, that sounds like we can expect something like Not on Our Dime! New York City edition to penalize nonprofits that are judged to be helping the Israeli settlement movement, that might be New York-based. Do you think that's a fight the voters of New York want to have in addition to Mr. Mamdani's affordability agenda?

Jeremy Cohan: Again, I think the affordability agenda will be the center. It's going to be a lot of hard work. I think that's going to be the overwhelming attention of the administration. I think what you said is that Zohran Mamdani will use his bully pulpit as mayor to stand for the values he believes in. Also, I think that poll after poll show a majority of New Yorkers and Jewish New Yorkers as well agree with. I think a good example of this recently is when Netanyahu was here for the UN assembly, and there were masses of ministers from around the world walking out and not listening to his speech.

Eric Adams gave him a huge bear hug. As you mentioned, Andrew Cuomo stepped up and volunteered-- I still feel enough people don't know this. He volunteered to legally defend Netanyahu a year into this genocide. Zohran Mamdani, simply by not doing that, by standing up against war criminals, by saying, just like we wouldn't throw a ticker tape parade for Vladimir Putin if he came to New York City, saying, "If you're a war criminal, you're not welcomed into the bosom of New York City," which is a thing the majority of New Yorkers believe.

Brian Lehrer: We'll get to Mamdani and Netanyahu in a minute, but the question was about whether you think Mamdani will or whether the DSA thinks Mamdani should do something like Not on Our Dime! municipal edition, where local nonprofits that give money to help the Israeli settler movement should be punished by the city government.

Jeremy Cohan: As far as I know, the administration hasn't set any intention to do that. I think from what I understood, at least--

Brian Lehrer: The Mamdani campaign.

Jeremy Cohan: Yes, exactly. Sorry. [laughs] Wishful thinking there. As far as I know, the campaign hasn't said anything like that. He said rectify. Insofar as Eric Adams intends to intentionally outreach and welcome in settlers, I think the settler movement in Israel is an extremist, far-right movement. It is not an ordinary part of civil society. I recommend to your listeners to read Isaac Chotiner's interview back from a couple years ago with one of the lead settlers, where she very explicitly said, "I don't believe Palestinian children are worth as much as my children.

I want to create facts on the ground such that there can never be a Palestinian state, and I'm fine taking land from Palestinians." The settler movement is an extremist movement, and so standing up against that is decent and correct, and again, I think actually in line with a majority of New Yorkers. What that means in terms of policy specifics, again, I definitely don't think it'll be a priority. The affordability agenda, as he said in the campaign, is his priority. I don't see any big legislation as being what his near-term intentions are.

No, but it is not doing active outreach to extremist, violent racists the way that Eric Adams has been doing.

Brian Lehrer: Now I want to play a clip of Mamdani at a candidates forum before the primary at the Manhattan synagogue B'nai Jeshurun, in which Mamdani argues for his position that he would have Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu arrested if Netanyahu were to set foot in New York because of Netanyahu's war crimes indictment by the International Criminal Court. Here's Mamdani at that forum.

Zohran Mamdani: To the question around Benjamin Netanyahu, I was asked what I would do after he had just been issued an arrest warrant by the International Court of Justice. My answer is the same whether we are speaking about Vladimir Putin or Netanyahu. I think that this should be a city in compliance with international law. We have seen other countries across the world, who are signatories to the ICC, state that they would honor that same request, be it Canada or other countries in Europe.

Their honoring of it meant that Netanyahu did not travel there. I think it is important to show leadership in a time when it is sorely missing. There are some who may say that the United States is not a party to the International Criminal Court. Thank you, Whitney. I knew you were going there. To that I say that there are times when courage is required.

Brian Lehrer: Mamdani on June 9th. Do you think that's what New Yorkers want or should want in a mayor to insert himself into an international controversy to that degree? Send the NYPD, I guess it would be to arrest Benjamin Netanyahu if he were to try to come and speak at the UN, for example, as when the General Assembly was here last month.

Jeremy Cohan: I think New Yorkers definitely want a mayor who is the opposite of Donald Trump, someone who doesn't cozy up with dictators, doesn't cozy up with billionaire oligarchs. Insofar as he's saying dictators, war criminals, not welcome here in our city, our city's Statue of Liberty sits a right [chuckles] to welcome people into our city. We're supposed to be a haven, a refuge of the oppressed. That, I think, is completely in line with the values we hold as New Yorkers, with the core essence of New York City.

I think applying international law equally to war criminals and dictators across the world seems like a good way to start, a pretty simple way, too, of simply saying New York stands for something in the world. New York is a melting pot, a metropole, a place where people need to live equally and in harmony and in peace. We don't accept war criminals in our city. I think, to me, that actually seems to be quite in line. One of the things that's so beautiful about the Zohran Mamdani campaign generally is how much it's in line with the most hopeful, the most decent, the most beautiful traditions of New York City as embodied in the Statue of Liberty.

Brian Lehrer: Last thing, I asked Jim Walden in the previous segment, supporting Cuomo, about the definition of antisemitism that Cuomo says on his campaign website that he would adopt as mayor, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition, controversial because of the degree to which it equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Mamdani says he would repeal that definition, which Mayor Adams has already adopted for the city. Why is that definition, as it pertains to anti-Zionism, a fight worth having in New York?

Jeremy Cohan: That's a great question, I think, in part because it seems so technocratic. I think on the substance, the relationship between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is a complex one, and there is no simple correlation. There is a long and distinguished tradition of Jewish anti-Zionism, of which I count myself a part. There's also far-right Christian, extremely Zionist, antisemites, who, among other things, want all Jews to be returned to Israel because that's where they belong, and for them to be involved in a war that brings on the revelation.

The relationship between anti-Zionism and antisemitism is there's no direct correlation. That's on the substance. On the political significance, the IHRA definition is all too often basically being utilized to suppress protest, to tell people who have a form of peaceful political speech that you don't agree with or you don't like, especially one that is opposed to Israeli policy, Israeli genocidal policy, and opposed to apartheid, and maybe even more radical than that.

It's political speech that you don't agree with, claiming that it is illegitimate in the sphere of public debate, claiming that it's all right to bring increased hate crimes charges against protesters. It's an attempt in the Trumpian fashion to squelch dissent and to squelch legitimate criticism of the Israeli government. No other racism or prejudice has a strict definition in New York City policy. It's important that our opposition to antisemitism, our approach to antisemitism is about ending racism, ending forms of hate writ large. It's not about suppressing protest.

My opposition to antisemitism is personal, obviously, because I'm Jewish. Also, though I think it's right in line with Zohran Mamdani's, our opposition to antisemitism is based on the same principle as our opposition to the genocide in Gaza. It is about every single human being deserving dignity, deserving a good life.

Brian Lehrer: We will pick up on that topic more on our follow-up segment tomorrow when we talk more specifically about fighting anti-Jewish hate and anti-Muslim hate in New York City. This ends today's 30 Issues in 30 Days segment. Issue number 11 on how Cuomo or Mamdani might try to affect the Middle East, per se, if either is elected mayor. We spoke earlier to Jim Walden, the former independent candidate who dropped out and endorsed Cuomo in part because of this issue. We have been talking now with Jeremy Cohan, a leader of the Democratic Socialists of America, New York City chapter. Thank you very much.

Jeremy Cohan: Thanks so much, Brian.

 

Copyright © 2025 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.