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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Later in the program, we'll talk about the winner of this year's Nobel Peace Prize, announced this morning, and also about details and implementation so far of the ceasefire and prisoner and hostage exchange that has been agreed to, at least on paper, between the Israeli government and Hamas. That's coming up with Gideon Rose from the Council on Foreign Relations, who, among other things, wrote a book called How Wars End. Gideon Rose on all of that coming up.

But we start with today's edition of our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. It's issue 15: protecting New Yorkers from anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hate as an issue in the New York City mayoral race. As we come to the end of this week of the second anniversary of the October 7th attack in Israel and the beginning of the war in Gaza ever since, and even as a ceasefire and hostage and prisoner exchange may soon take place, expressions of hate, including hate-related crimes, hate-related violence as well, are a local issue in New York City as elsewhere in the United States.

This segment will focus not on the Middle East, but on safety and respect in New York City, per se, as we compare the candidates' approaches. Some facts as background, NYPD stats cited in the press say anti-Jewish hate crimes last year totaled more than all other hate crimes combined, 345 out of 641 reported hate crimes, or 54%. The stats also count 43 anti-Muslim hate crimes. Zohran Mamdani's website also notes that 65% of hate crimes targeted Jewish New Yorkers in 2023, but adds that there was a 73% increase in anti-Muslim crimes that year as well.

All three candidates, Democrats Zohran Mamdani, Republican Curtis Sliwa, and independent Andrew Cuomo, say they want to fight hate crimes, but they have different approaches and different emphases. Also, some areas of common ground and various things that they've either said or done raise controversies. Our first two guests are Daisy Khan, activist and author. Among other things, she is founder of the Women's Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality.

She describes herself on her website as a Uniter in Chief, "standing on stages where tensions run high and trust runs thin, from corporations to schools to community forums, proving that even the deepest divides, like Islamophobia, can't outlast the power of human connection." Her bio page also says with over two decades of grassroots work against anti-Muslim bias, she is a recognized thought leader on Muslim women's rights and Islam in America. Her publications include WISE Up: Knowledge Ends Extremism, Born with Wings, and her latest book, 30 Rights of Muslim Women.

We have Amy Spitalnick, CEO of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs, which calls itself the national convener of Jewish coalitions working across communities to build a just and inclusive American democracy. Among other things, her bio page says she serves as senior advisor on extremism to Human Rights first, that human rights group, and on the advisory board of the Polarization and Extremism Research and Innovation Lab at American University and has been communications director and senior policy advisor to to the New York Attorney General and a spokesperson and advisor to the New York City mayor. Amy and Daisy, I made you into one person. Thank you very much for coming on. Welcome back to WNYC.

Amy Spitalnick: Thanks so much for having us.

Daisy Khan: Thank you for having me again. It's nice to be back with you.

Brian Lehrer: Can I get each of your takes first on the state of affairs in New York City with respect to anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hate crimes and the threat to members of the two communities as you see it. You heard those stats from the NYPD. Amy, would you go first?

Amy Spitalnick: Absolutely. Look, it's important to understand that while these hate crimes certainly skyrocketed over the last two years since October 7th, they didn't start there. We've been looking at a decade of rising hate crimes, including antisemitic, Islamophobic, and other hate crimes. I remember back in 2016 when a swastika was painted on my local playground in Brooklyn. That, in many ways, was a harbinger of the broader hate crimes that have become so normalized, not just in our city but around the country. We're seeing this manifest in a few different ways in terms of antisemitism.

First, visibly, Jewish people, Orthodox Jews, being targeted on the street simply because of who they are and what they look like. We know that this has been the case long before October 7th, and it also certainly increased over the last two years. We're seeing Jewish institutions. I mentioned the swastika drawn on my local playground a decade ago. After October 7th, my own synagogue was targeted with graffiti as well. We're seeing Jewish institutions and organizations being targeted in a variety of different ways.

What's unique about antisemitism is that it also simply doesn't just target Jews because of who we are or what we look like or how we pray or don't pray. It also is this insidious, pernicious conspiracy theory rooted in tropes and lies around Jewish control and power. It also tends to manifest in ways that might be harder for people to understand in terms of these conspiracy theories and tropes targeting Jews or, frankly, a variety of different communities, and ultimately aimed at pitting the Jewish community against others and sowing distrust in our institutions and ultimately, our democracy.

We're seeing that happen in a number of different ways. Certainly, over the last decade, antisemitic conspiracy theories related to Jewish power and control, this idea of Jews will not replace us, as we saw in Charlottesville or in Pittsburgh, which was the deadliest attack on the Jewish community in US History, become so normalized. Those very same conspiracy theories have fueled hate and violence here in New York and around the country and the globe.

Post October 7, similar conspiracy theories related to Jewish or "Zionist control and power" leading to attacks, increasingly violent attacks on Jews and Jewish institutions here in New York and around the country as well. It's really feeling like it's coming from all directions for the Jewish community right now. It's targeting Jews who simply are visible on the street. It's targeting Jewish institutions, and it's using antisemitic conspiracy theories and tropes to pit the Jewish community against others. Distrust between communities and in our institutions and our government and ultimately lead to the polarization and tensions that make all of us unsafe.

Brian Lehrer: Daisy, same question. The state of things regarding Jewish and Muslim safety from hate crimes in the city, Amy focused primarily on the threat to Jews. Maybe you want to focus particularly on the threat to Muslims, and we will get the two of you to talk about the other communities as well.

Amy Spitalnick: Absolutely.

Daisy Khan: Yes. Thank you so much. I think that I'm not going to repeat what Amy said because she's always so eloquent. I would say that the hate crimes for both communities, it's ironic that both communities suffer the same. Every time there's rising antisemitism, there's also a spike in Islamophobia, and we've seen that throughout, not just the last few years, but even prior to that. To me, what is really troubling is that Islamophobia, besides just the tropes that are experienced by individuals, is experienced individually, societally, as well as institutionally.

We don't have the luxury of just as Muslims being targeted as individuals, because we've seen that already, whether you're a woman walking on the street with a hijab or you're being bullied or you're being harassed or you're being called a name. It's much more than that. If you try to even enter into politics or enter into a cultural space that is seen as a threat, then you are seen as a threat, and you're not allowed to even participate in that. That is what we're seeing about Mamdani.

Then, at the institutional level, there are policies that government makes that then strips Muslims of their civil rights. It's much deeper for the Muslim community. We're not just struggling with mosques being vandalized or individuals being this thing. It's so much deeper, and it's so troubling for us because we have to work on so many different fronts. For me, the alarming part is that these incidences, whether they're antisemitic attacks or Islamophobic attacks, are not isolated incidences.

It shows that there's an erosion of trust between neighbors, and it's usually stoked by somebody from outside. What's most dangerous is when people begin to feel unsafe within their own communities, which is what we've been experiencing. That's why leadership matters so much right now, Brian, because New York is a very diverse place, and diversity shouldn't be our threat. When one group gets targeted, everyone's safety is at risk, and we need to really work together on this.

Brian Lehrer: Amy, anything you want to add? Then Daisy could come back one more time if you do, before we go on to the candidate specific proposals.

Amy Spitalnick: Yes, look, I want to underscore what Daisy was saying, which is that it's really impossible to separate the rise in antisemitism from the rise in Islamophobia and broader hate and extremism right now, because ultimately, these all work together and are inextricably linked, used as tools, as Daisy said, oftentimes by extreme voices from the outsides to pit communities against one another. That's precisely what we've been seeing over the last two years, in which the crisis in the Middle East, first the horrific attacks of October 7th and then the war in Gaza, which has been going on for two years now, have been exploited by the most extreme voices in order to pit communities against one another.

Even though this conversation is not about Middle East policy, we know how extreme voices here at home have used it over and over again and how it's playing out not only in the mayoral race, but in the reality for Jewish, Muslim, and so many other communities around the country. As we talk about the actual policies that the candidates are putting forward to address antisemitism and Islamophobia, we have to understand that we can't address one without addressing the other. They go hand in hand. It's all part of the broader erosion of the norms of our society and our democracy, and the polarization that has become so pervasive that requires us to actually think about a whole-of-society approach.

Brian Lehrer: Daisy, I have a feeling you agree with all of that, but if you want to add anything briefly, go ahead.

Daisy Khan: Yes, I just want to add because Amy just made a really important point. She said that's usually somebody from outside or people with vested interests that stoke this fear of one another. I think for the Muslim community, it's much deeper, and that's why I'm saying the institution. Anybody can target somebody who is running for office, like Zohran running for office, and have absolutely no repercussions.

In the Jewish community, I don't think that would be accepted. The threats against Zohran to me are unacceptable, full stop. Like he's running, he's trying to serve. Why is his religion being dragged into. Why is he being called little Muhammad? Why is he being called an extremist, and yet there are no consequences to it? No one's being held responsible for it. This is what I wanted to make a point of: that that's what distinguishes Islamophobia from antisemitism.

Brian Lehrer: Now, let's talk about some Mamdani proposals and actions, then Cuomo proposals and actions. Then we will add a third guest on Curtis Sliwa. Mamdani is proposing to create a Department of Community Safety, which would include an office for the prevention of hate crimes' violence, Office for the Prevention of Hate Crimes Violence, he calls it. This is laid out in a two-page section of Mamdani's campaign website.

Just to tick through a few of the bullet points there, it says they would reinvigorate the Interagency Committee on Hate Crimes, rebuild the Community Advisory and Services Team, including the creation of restorative justice processes, strengthen the school bias response team, increase funding for and programming to the Office of Prevention of Hate Crimes, and the Path Forward Initiative. We're not going to bother to explain what that is. It's an existing thing.

Also, ensure that community mental health navigators and other mental health providers in the city are connected to and can recommend hate violence support services. My question, Daisy, is how different would any of that be from what the city does now? There are anti-hate crimes offices that exist. Most of that section references strengthening ones that already do exist and have existed under many mayors going back. How much of a change does any of that actually represent?

Daisy Khan: Yes. Brian, I'm speaking from experience. Since 9/11, you know I've been doing bridge-building work, and that's why you always bring me on your show, and because I'm always talking about this: how do we bring communities together? How do we solve the problems that we have at the local level? I can assure you that from my experience, the only thing that really works is educational awareness and especially through a community-based approach, building trust between groups.

This trust has really served us during these last two years. The trust that has been built between Jewish community leaders and Muslim community leaders over the years, since 9/11, has not eroded even during these excruciating times that we have experienced. Building trust between groups, supporting victims, and addressing the root cause of hate before they turn violent. I think that is what is important, and that's what excites me about Zohran's plan because he's putting safety, he's saying let's treat safety as something we build together.

It's not like you give a grant. I've been to many of those anti-hate conferences under Cuomo, and some people get grants and they do certain work, but you never bring communities together. I think that's what's exciting about him, is he's saying let's bring people through relationships, through education. I like his education because I'm doing a lot of work on Islamophobia in schools and in universities. I think that's where a lot of the work needs to be done, both on Islamophobia and antisemitism. I think that by rebuilding connections, that's what the moment in New York is calling for.

Brian Lehrer: Amy, same question: what's new there, if anything, really?

Amy Spitalnick: What's important is to look at fighting hate crimes from a whole-of-government and whole-of-society perspective. I think this plan begins to do that, which matters. I'll caveat this by saying I run a 501(c)(3). We're nonpartisan. Take this as me commenting on policy as opposed to endorsing any specific candidate or campaign. What's important is that we understand how the different threads of city government must work together to keep communities safe. Fighting heat isn't simply an issue of the NYPD and public safety.

It's also our education system. It's also the criminal justice system. It's also DYCD and youth engagement. It's also our public health system. It's truly a whole-of-government approach that's required because you need to be able to identify and counter the different entry points to hate and extremism wherever we see them. That's a great starting point. There's so much more that we also need to be doing right. We're thinking about tools like media and digital literacy.

The ways in which so many, particularly young, but frankly all people are being radicalized into hate in this moment of all different forms is so often through social media and online. How we're actually empowering, not just students in our schools, but frankly all of us, caregivers, coaches, youth, pastors, others, to actually teach media and digital literacy in a way that makes all of us smarter and more perceptive consumers of the news and social media is critical to actually inoculating us-- [inaudible 00:18:07] [crosstalk] There's a variety of other policies that I hope can also be built on here.

Brian Lehrer: You both agree that there needs to be this whole-of-government, as you called it, multi-track approach to fighting hate across either direction. Amy, people raise questions about Mamdani as a potential threat to Jewish New Yorkers by his refusal to condemn the phrase "globalize the intifada." He points out fairly enough that the word intifada does not mean violence. The criticism, as you know, is that many people, both Jews and non Jews, take it to refer to the violent parts of the intifadas in Israel in past decades.

Maybe extremists prone to violence take it as a call to them or permission to them in some way. His lack of clarity, as many people hear it in condemning the use of the phrase, is taken as perhaps a wink or at least not a strong enough denunciation. Does this put Jewish New Yorkers at risk, in your opinion, Amy?

Amy Spitalnick: Look, two things are true at the same time here. I think in so many ways, Mamdani's win in the primary became this sort of Rorschach test for people who were looking to validate their feelings. We are absolutely living in a moment where rhetoric is leading to real-world violence against Jews. In the last few months alone, we've seen the firebombing of a Jewish governor's home in Pennsylvania. We saw the shooting outside the Capitol Jewish Museum in DC. We saw the attack on Jews in Boulder, Colorado.

In many of these cases, we saw Jews here being targeted ostensibly for the actions of the Israeli government. We know that rhetoric leads to real-world violence against Jews here in New York and around the country. Words matter. Words from our leaders matter. The climate in the city matters. I think phrases like "globalize the intifada" do evoke very specific feelings in many New York Jews. Particularly, I think about me. My formative years in my relationship with Israel were the Second Intifada, which was a time of pizzeria bombings and bus bombings in Israel.

When I hear that phrase, that's what it evokes for me. I know Mamdani has, to his credit, engaged with a number of Jewish leaders over the past few months and has said that he now understands how that phrase does evoke that those very feelings for many Jewish New Yorkers, those feelings of the bus bombings and other attacks, and that he discourages its use. That matters for him to engage with the community and hear those fears.

I'll also say, as Daisy has pointed out, there are those who are exploiting legitimate Jewish fears to also go after Mamdani with Islamophobic and broader extremist attacks, which all of us have a responsibility to call out. I think it's important to recognize multiple things are true here and that our leaders have an obligation to use rhetoric and to understand the fears of all of the people that they represent, and that there are those who are exploiting those fears to further pit communities against one another.

Brian Lehrer: Now, let's talk about Andrew Cuomo's website and record. Cuomo's website and previous releases combined support proposals for "curriculum reforms" that "take seriously the issue of antisemitism and other forms of bias." So far, he's on at least one same page as Mamdani. Also, to seek adoption of what Cuomo calls an unmasking law. There he gets more controversial. Also, adopting the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism.

Mamdani opposes that definition we'll discuss. Also, Cuomo's website has an explicit section on fighting antisemitism. It's one of the categories, along with affordability and things like that, but no mention of Islamophobia that I can find. How do either of you see Cuomo's approach as being different from, or maybe similar to Mamdani's, but with different words? Daisy?

Daisy Khan: Yes, I think Governor Cuomo has certainly spoken out against Islamophobia in the past. I remember when he spoke out for projects like the Downtown Mosque; he showed real courage at that time. He was very supportive of Muslim community during the Muslim ban. When you look, like you said, at his current platform, it's striking that Islamophobia isn't even mentioned alongside antisemitism, and both communities are suffering from it.

I think in a city that's as diverse as ours, we have to fight one form of hate and not overlook the other. I mean, Mamdani is subject to Islamophobic rhetoric every time. He's the most visible Muslim right now in the United States. Brian, I don't know if you know this, but I'm overseas right now. Mamdani is not just news in New York and America. He's news all over the world, and everybody is watching to see what will happen. To me, true leadership means naming all the biases, antisemitism, Islamophobia, racism, because safety has to be shared. Otherwise, it's not safety at all.

Brian Lehrer: On Cuomo's record, he couldn't remember any appearance at a mosque as governor when we asked him about that in the primary debate. I will quote from Sheik Ibrahim Niass at a Cuomo appearance at his Bronx mosque last month saying, "We appreciate his years-long work in standing up against Islamophobia, particularly Trump’s Muslim ban, and his support for a mosque in downtown Manhattan at a time when few showed the same courage and support." Daisy, you were involved in that at the time, and you cited his support just now. The shake goes on. “In particular, his willingness to support our efforts for an Arabic charter school." Give me one more thought on Cuomo's actual record as governor.

Daisy Khan: A record of--? Sorry, I couldn't hear you.

Brian Lehrer: As governor.

Daisy Khan: As governor. I think the fact that he didn't go to a mosque and he finally went during this campaign is very telling. I think that I'm not sure-- I think he's trying to make amends right now, but it's a little too late. The fact that Islamophobia does not even appear on his website is a problem for all of us because we are experiencing Islamophobia daily. I think it's the unmasking law that he has talked about is a punishment of speech, basically. That's what it comes across to Muslims. New York should be a place where Muslims, Jews, and Christians, and anyone who runs for office be judged for who they are, not their identity, and that's a problem.

Brian Lehrer: Amy, anything you want to add or contradict?

Amy Spitalnick: No. Look, there's definitely pieces of his plan on antisemitism that are really important in terms of how we actually think about education as a tool. We so oftentimes focus in on Holocaust education as a central point to countering antisemitism, and that matters. Also, how we fight antisemitism through education is also teaching about who Jews are today, and so thinking about how we reform our curriculum in a way that actually addresses antisemitism. To Daisy's point, we can't counter any form of hate without countering all forms of hate. I would want to see any candidate actually put forward a plan to address hate comprehensively.

The last thing I'll also say is that so often times we're seeing issues like codifying definitions of antisemitism into law become these red herrings, and so that we're arguing over whether we should codify a definition into law as opposed to what the actual policies are that we should advance to keep Jews and all communities safe. It's so important that we not let these definitional and other fights that have become so pervasive in the debate right now distract from holding our leaders accountable to their responsibility to actually implement the policies that keep Jews in all communities safe.

Brian Lehrer: When we come back from a break, we will discuss the definition. All right. We were trying to get in there, Daisy. We can do this first, and then we're going to take a break and bring in a third guest, and maybe we'll get more into the debate over the definition. Go ahead and say anything you want to say.

Daisy Khan: Yes, I just wanted to add that you identified me as the Uniter in Chief, and, and I love uniting people. I really like Zohran's message when he says he cares about, not just about one community, but care about all of us. I think his proposal for community safety and not [inaudible 00:27:39] groups, I think they strengthened solidarity across all groups, and that's the direction New York needs to go.

Brian Lehrer: When we continue in a minute, we will get more into that debate over the definition and why it might matter. Is it more than a distraction from the actual implementation of policies, as Amy was just suggesting? We will bring on a third guest, Long Island talk show host Cindy Grosz, who's supporting Curtis Sliwa for mayor. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer on WNYC as we continue with our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series, issue 15, protecting New Yorkers from anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hate as an issue in the New York City mayoral race. We continue with Daisy Khan, activist and author, founder of the Women's Islamic Initiative in Spirituality and Equality and author of books, including her latest, 30 Rights of Muslim Women, and Amy Spatalnik, CEO of the Jewish Council for Public Affairs. Also joining us now is Cindy Grosz, who describes herself as a Jewish activist. She hosts the show Right for America on the Long Island radio station WGB and as a podcast on America First Warehouse. She has an article in the Times of Israel, a blog post on the Times of Israel site called Actions Speak Louder Than Words – Why Curtis for New York. Cindy, thanks very much for coming on. Welcome to WNYC.

Cindy Grosz: Thank you so much for having me and for allowing my voice and the voice of Republican conservatives and common sense to be part of this conversation.

Brian Lehrer: Mostly, you argue in your piece that Sliwa is a better alternative to Mamdani for those who want one than Cuomo is. Why is that?

Cindy Grosz: First of all, I must say it's not Islamophobia that we're discussing. It's really radical Islamic terrorism, and that's the difference. I just want to clear that up.

Brian Lehrer: Can't we be discussing both of those things?

Cindy Grosz: They are a little bit different because there are many people who are practicing Arabs who live in Israel happily and are supporting, actually, the current peace deal, so it is a little bit different. Radical Islamic terrorists is a little bit--

Brian Lehrer: Just to be clear, what we're discussing in this segment is how to protect both Jews and Muslims in New York City, per se. We did a separate segment on the Middle East and the mayoral candidates. Protecting people in both groups in New York City. Go ahead.

Cindy Grosz: I am going to get to that. First of all, I don't think that Cuomo can win an election even if he has gotten some of the attention based on the latest Quinnipiac poll that was out yesterday. He's getting the some of the Adams vote because he did lose the primary. He is not picking up enough of the vote. Even in the primary, he had lots of money, lots of powerful endorsements, and it did not help him. He is not exciting anybody outside really of those that left Adams. Also, when he actually left in disgrace as governor. Many people will never forget what happened during COVID, if they had a family member who passed away, so they just won't come out and vote for him.

Cuomo also, as governor in 2014, was the first visit to Israel when he already was thinking of reelection, and he was having a little bit of issues in the Jewish community. The Jewish community who is voting now, many of them don't remember that. They also don't remember they're now using-- Cuomo's people are using something against Curtis that he said in 2018 about antisemitism. It really wasn't direct antisemitism; it was about multiple communities. Actually, in 2006, as I point out in my article, and it's very funny, this week happens to be Sukkot, which is a holiday he was talking about, he said, "Those effing tree houses," and it was reported actually in the New York Times, although he did deny it.

Right now, what's going on is campaigning. What they say on their websites, they're all going this week to different sukkah parties. It doesn't matter. It's a history. I met Curtis decades ago standing outside of the United Nations, standing, protecting Jewish synagogues when there were times when we were worried about being able to pray safely. Curtis was there with the Guardian Angels during the Crown Heights incident, looking to protect Jews. He raises his own two younger sons as Jews. He doesn't have to do that. He chooses to do that. None of the other candidates can actually say they actually are practicing Jews within their immediate family.

Brian Lehrer: That was from his previous marriage to the woman who's now the Queens DA, Melinda Katz, who, of course, is Jewish, and they had two children together. Right?

Cindy Grosz: Right. He has a history with rabbis, with organizations, with standing. He stood right next to me in Times Square when I spoke at a rally with the Guardian Angels, making sure that we were protected. He walks in the Salute to Israel parade with lots of Guardian Angels way before he was a candidate. He has a huge record of this. As your previous guest said, they pointed out that the other two candidates don't really have that. He is somebody who should be considered-- It's not just Jews. It's really Judeo-Christian values. Because, yes, it's antisemitism, but the ultimate fight is Judeo-Christian values against-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: I want to cite for you an article on the Jewish Telegraphic Agency website just recently, a few weeks ago, saying Sliwa has a, "Mixed record with Jews." On the downside, it cites, for example, that 2018 speech that you referred to. It says in a 2018 speech, he described Orthodox Jews as a drag on the tax system and warns suburban residents that they are "trying to take over your community," quoting Sliwa in that Jewish Telegraph Agency JTA article. Your reaction to that?

Cindy Grosz: As I stated, he apologized for that immediately, and I didn't see anything on JTA regarding Cuomo's remarks. I know there have been about Mamdani's remarks October 7th with Bibi, but there was nothing about the record of Andrew Cuomo like this. Like I said, I remember when this happened. I remember the apology. I also remembered how Cuomo singled out the Orthodox Jewish communities that he's going and catering to now, begging for money, begging for votes, when he actually targeted them during COVID when we were practicing religious events and happenings and we were not allowed, and we were singled out when other religious groups weren't. That is something that is very key, especially in Queens and in Brooklyn that a lot of people remember. They also remember that Curtis was with them way before. Like I said, the Crown Heights things were decades ago. He stood with us then, and he's standing with us now.

Brian Lehrer: That treehouses quote that you cited, "effing tree houses," according to a New York Times report, way back around this 2006 event, Cuomo reportedly said, "These people and their effing tree houses," a reference, as you wrote, to the temporary shelters used for the fall festival of Sukkot. This year's observance was just this week, but his spokesperson denied the comment. That was not something that was caught on tape. Just to clarify for our listeners what that was.

Amy Spitalnick, Cuomo did feel obliged during this campaign just recently to apologize to Orthodox Jews for some of the things that Cindy was just mentioning that he did during COVID, particularly restrictions on gatherings that some Orthodox Jewish communities were considering more important than the separation requirements. Is that a strike against him if he had to come out and apologize during his campaign now?

Amy Spitalnick: Look, I think there are a few different pieces here. Actually, if I can quickly respond to something first, I think it's so important to make clear that the conflation of fighting Islamophobia here at home with radical Islam is incredibly dangerous. I'm really disheartened by the fact that someone could try to suggest that policies to keep the Muslim community safe here at home have anything to do with promotion of radical Islam. I think all of us who claim to care about fighting hate in any way, shape, or form should be clear eyed about that.

To your question on Cuomo specifically, look, in many ways, I think there are many in the Jewish and other communities who were frustrated that he apologized. While he certainly handled, I think, many of these pieces poorly as governor in terms of how he handled it with the community and in a variety of other ways, I also think that the implementation of public health measures was crucial during those moments and that even in cases where there were deeply held religious beliefs, public health needed to be prioritized at a moment of a global pandemic.

There are, I think, complicated feelings in different parts of the Jewish community. We're not a monolith on this. I know that there are many in the Jewish community who are also frustrated that he apologized because they were happy that he stood up for public health at the time. So it's complicated. I think at the end of the day, what it speaks to is how in this mayoral race, the Jewish community has in many ways really become a political football.

When we're talking about so many of these issues and using the Jewish community, using issues of Israel, using issues of antisemitism as political footballs, as opposed to, again, thinking about the very specific constructive policies that are within the realm of what a mayor can can do to keep the Jewish community and all communities safe, it's ultimately most dangerous for the Jewish community.

Brian Lehrer: Cindy, because your article and your remarks here so far are citing Sliwa's record and comparing it to Cuomo's record in the past, what would you cite, if anything, as particular programs or policies that Curtis Sliwa as mayor would enact that you think would be the most effective in fighting both anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim violence and those forms of hate?

Cindy Grosz: First of all, I must correct your last guest's comment. I'm talking about radical Islamic terrorism in New York, like September 11th. Under the governorship of Cuomo, where he was in charge of the state's education and part of the curriculum, he did not-- Facts versus prejudice and bias make a big difference. Islamophobia is all Islamic people and all Arabs. What I am saying to you, it's not. There's a specific group that wants to destroy, not only Jews, but Judeo-Christian values and people that follow it.

We've seen it around the country, even not just antisemitic incidents, but burning of churches. I wanted to clarify that. Number two, first of all, he has a record of safety. People don't feel safe walking the streets of the five boroughs, especially Manhattan. They don't feel safe in public transportation. They don't feel safe wearing a yarmulke. I myself have a close friend, Joey Borgen, who was a victim of an antisemitic attack.

Governor Cuomo was the first person or one of the first people who actually promoted bail reform and was bragging about letting criminals out and go back on the streets. We have seen what has happened under his record of governor. We see how many of these people go out and commit crimes again and again. Curtis is the man of safety. Making the streets safe is the first thing because that will encourage people to do business, to live here, to work together.

Also, Curtis really has a lot of support from every minority group, grassroots, who have known Curtis, who've gone out. You just see from the Guardian Angels, people from every background supporting and working with him. He has that. He also has the endorsement of Rudy Giuliani, who everybody considers America's mayor who really fixed the city at a time when New York was in crisis. With people like that guiding him and helping him, it will be a major support.

Brian Lehrer: I guess time will tell if these days the Giuliani endorsement works more for him or more against him. That just came recently. I want to come back in our last few minutes because I said we would, and you can all three chime in on this if you'd like. How candidates differ on the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, which Cuomo says he would adopt for the city as mayor, as Mayor Adams has also done. Mamdani opposes that.

The definition is controversial because of these lines that antisemitism includes "denying the Jewish people their right to self determination, for example, by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor," or to apply "double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation," or "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis." Cuomo wants to enshrine that as the official definition of antisemitism for New York City, which Adams recently did. Daisy, does that definition go too far for you in equating anti-Zionism with antisemitism equating political positions with bias against Jews?

Daisy Khan: Yes. Antisemitism is real and it is rising, and we have to take it seriously. We also have to make sure that in fighting hate, we don't silence legitimate voices for justice. That's the concern that many share about the IRHA definition, because it conflates criticism of Israeli government policy with antisemitism itself. Because in Practice, it can be used to label human rights work, including advocacy for Palestinians, as antisemitic. I think that's an affront to our democracy, and it's deeply troubling-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: Let me just [inaudible 00:44:10] and follow up. The advocates for that definition say no, it does not lock out criticism of Israeli government policy. It would equate anti-Zionism, that the existence of a State of Israel being described as a racist endeavor, for example, or "drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policies to that of the Nazis," in particular, which some people have done with respect to the policies in Gaza. That's different from any criticism of the Israeli government. Do those particular words in this definition limit free speech in your opinion, or pose any threat to New York City Muslims in your opinion?

Daisy Khan: Yes, it does, because, first of all, the definition keeps shifting, Brian. It's like we don't know what is going to be added to this definition. This was not the definition of IRHA before. In fact, I know the person who wrote the original definition, and at that time, that person actually said in the conference that criticism of Israeli policy or Israeli government is legitimate and it should not be conflated with antisemitism. The problem is not the specific words, it's the application of it and what's to come after that.

Brian Lehrer: Cindy Grosz, have you--

Daisy Khan: How are people going to be held responsible? Because the goalpost keeps shifting, and we just don't know what the real definition is anymore.

Amy Spitalnick: Can I add? I think we're also not asking the right question here-

Brian Lehrer: That's Amy Spitalnick. Go ahead.

Amy Spitalnick: -which is that the question is whether we should be codifying a definition into law. The IHRA definition, or frankly, any of the other definitions of antisemitism, the Nexus definition, for example, which was both IHRA and Nexus were cited in the Biden-Harris antisemitism strategy, which was widely applauded across the political spectrum. These are useful tools and resources that we should all be looking towards and understanding the different ways that antisemitism can manifest.

The question here is whether we should be codifying a definition of antisemitism or a definition of any other type of hate into law, which raises some of the very specific civil liberties questions that Daisy just mentioned and that other advocates have raised as well. For me, it's not a question of IHRA or not IHRA. It's a question of what are the various resources we have, and how do we actually use them and apply them in a way that both treats antisemitism with the seriousness and understanding it warrants and also protects the civil liberties and rights of all communities? It's more of a question of codification or not for me, and I think for many others.

Brian Lehrer: Cindy, the people who object to that definition would argue, for example, that Zohran Mamdani's position that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state, but rather as a pluralistic democracy for everybody, more like the United States, is antisemitic. He, of course, would argue it's not. A lot of people on college campuses would object to what they see as their political speech being defined as antisemitism by the city of New York as a step too far. Your position?

Cindy Grosz: My position is very simple. All anti-Zionism is antisemitism. It's just a cover for what you feel, and it comes out over and over again. As somebody who was attending the World Zionist Congress as a delegate from the next week in Israel, I can tell you, based on what came out as a result, a stronger Jewish base in America feels the same way. Anti-Zionism is antisemitism.

Brian Lehrer: To the particulars of the question, if somebody advocates for the DSA-- We had a guest from the Democratic Socialists of America on who said they're not for any ethnonationalist state, and that there should just be democracy for everybody there in that pluralistic country where there are a lot of Jews, a lot of Palestinians, a lot of Israelis, a lot of Palestinians, a lot of Jews, a lot of Muslims, some Christians, that just advocating for that shouldn't be deemed antisemitism. One more time from you on that, Cindy.

Cindy Grosz: I totally disagree. Why do they have to single at Israel as the only state like that? They could single at any place around the world. As I tell people all the time, every country should be able to pick and define. We live in a democracy, we vote for who we want, and we follow the rule of the law. That's in many countries, and it's the same thing in Israel. I happen to support Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu.

I think that we are going to see in the next couple of days, in the next few weeks, a big change in the Middle East. I don't care what social Democrats say or even moderate Democrats if they exist. The peace plan has come under a Republican president, a Republican House, and a Republican Senate. That's where I stand with it. Anti-Zionism is antisemitism.

Brian Lehrer: Daisy, I'll get one more response from you on this, and to the point that Amy was making, Amy Spitalnick, that we can get distracted by these debates over a definition from focusing on what really matters, which is the policies that any of these candidates as mayor would implement to fight anti-Jewish and anti-Muslim hate and the city. We shouldn't be debating the definition too much because it doesn't really affect how they would govern necessarily. Do you agree with that? Are there consequences from this, potentially, if it's adopted, or it has been adopted by Adams and Cuomo would continue it?

Daisy Khan: I would like to answer another question instead. First of all, Cindy is here and-- [crosstalk]

Brian Lehrer: This is going to be the end of the segment.

Daisy Khan: Yes, you brought very different people together, and it's really great because, and I want Cindy to know, Cindy, when you say radical Islamic terrorism, there are three stereotypes in one because it's inaccurate, unfair, and dangerous. If we're going to fight extremism, we cannot lump an entire religion in it by calling it radical Islam. That's what you're saying. We Muslims have unequivocally rejected this language because it demonizes our faith.

I want you to know Islamophobia is irrational fear of Muslims and Islam, and it is different from anti-Arab and Palestinian bias, which is a bias against a race and a nationality, which also include Christians. You also mentioned Judeo-Christian values. We should remember that Islam is part of that same lineage. Muslims trace their roots to Abraham too. If we're going to speak about shared values and you want peace in Israel, you want coexistence between Palestinians and Arabs and the whole Gulf, then let's truly be Abrahamic because we all belong to that same family.

This is why our government used the Abrahamic Accords. What is that all about? That's supposed to bring everybody together, Palestinians, Israelis, Jews, Muslims, Christians, and make sure that no one's freedom comes at another one's expense. Yes, I want all of this. I don't think we'll be having conversations about Zionism and antisemitism, Islamophobia if we just respect one another, honor one another, and take that big tent that Jewish people always speak about.

Brian Lehrer: We could keep going round and round on this for a long time, obviously, but we're going to leave it here after about 55 minutes. We thank all three of you, Daisy Kahn, Amy Spitalnick, Cindy Grosz, for engaging today in our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. Thank you all very much.

Amy Spitalnick: Thanks so much.

Daisy Khan: Thank you very much, Brian. Bye-bye.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We do turn the page. Much more to come.

 

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