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Brian Lehrer: It's The Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. Forgive some technical difficulties at the top of the show here. We will try to get them straightened out, but we are here. Hello. Happy Monday. Obviously, as you've been hearing on the BBC, this is a day in the Middle East where the remaining living Israeli hostages have been released. Many Palestinian prisoners are being released from Israel.

The Israeli military has been pulling back from Gaza. There's more openness for humanitarian aid to get in. There have been speeches this morning, and we will cover this later in the show. You've been hearing it all morning if you've been listening to the news. The last segment on the BBC right now was about that. We're going to come back to it after we do some of our local stuff that's also going on on this local show here on WNYC, New York Public Radio.

Our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series continues to start the show today. Issue 16: School culture wars as an issue in the New Jersey governor's race. This includes things like opt-out provisions for LGBTQ or other curriculum material that parents don't want their kids exposed to, parental notification when a student changes their gender identity at school. Should informing the parents be mandatory about that? Should it be forbidden, with the child's privacy being paramount, or depend on the circumstances?

That's an "always, sometimes, never" question. A New Jersey controversy over book-banning legislation is part of this, so is the trans girls and girls school sports question, so is the state's guidance for public schools on generally treating trans students with what the state calls a supportive environment, understanding, and respect, so are curriculum and documentation requirements for parents who homeschool their kids. Should they have to show that they have a minimum standards plan for educating their kids at home?

There's also the overarching proposal for a parents' bill of rights that encompasses many of these things, and even more in this general area that we probably won't have time to get to. You hear, this is a lot. There's today's holiday, how to teach Columbus Day, Indigenous Peoples' Day, or even whether to recognize both, is an issue in the mix, but we can say this. Republican Jack Ciattarelli and Democrat Mikie Sherrill do take different positions on a number of these school culture war issues, so we will compare and contrast now so you know where each candidate stands on these things and who matches up with your own values and opinions.

We'll also have some debate on the issues themselves from two members of the state legislature who join me now. They are, and let's see if I describe their districts right, Democratic State Senator Andrew Zwicker of District 16. His district office is in Hillsborough, which is west of New Brunswick, north of Princeton. Part of Princeton is in the district, which spans parts of Mercer, Middlesex, and Somerset counties, and Republican Assemblywoman Dawn Fantasia, who represents District 24 with her offices in Sparta and Chester, north and south of Interstate 80 in the Lake Hopatcong region, if you know that place. The district covers the whole northwest corner of the state, really, all of Sussex and parts of Morrison, Warren counties. Senator Zwicker, Assemblywoman Fantasia, thanks for joining us for this. Welcome to WNYC.

Senator Andrew Zwicker: Thanks for having us on, Brian.

Assemblywoman Dawn Fantasia: Good morning. Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Any corrections on my perusal of the maps, either of you?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Perfect. Perfectly done.

Senator Zwicker: Sounded good.

Brian Lehrer: Let's start with the question of transgender or non-binary students' confidentiality rights versus a parent's right to know if their kid is using new pronouns, or otherwise identifying their gender differently from before in school. Current state guidance for school districts includes a provision for what it calls confidentiality and privacy. It says, "School personnel may not disclose information that may reveal a student's transgender status, except as allowed by law." I guess we'll talk about what the law is. Here's a clip of Ciattarelli on this, responding to the current policy. This is part of the state guidance regarding transgender students, generally known as Policy 5756. Here's Jack Ciattarelli on that.

Jack Ciattarelli: As if Policy 5756 wasn't bad enough, this is the policy that says that school districts keep secrets from parents. I've said throughout the course of this campaign, I will continue to do so over the next 68 days, right up until Election Day. That policy is immoral. It's indecent, it's wrong, and it's dangerous. Our students are best served when school district and parents work in partnership, not in secret.

Brian Lehrer: All right. Listeners, bear with me. I think we're going to get this going in better quality here in just a second. Let's see. Okay, control room, can you tell me if we are up here? I think we are, right? Okay, so I think this is a little better, folks. Sorry for the rough start there. Assemblywoman Fantasia, as the Republican here today, you agree with Mr. Ciattarelli. Before you argue further for your position, is the guidance we're talking about currently mandatory for all school districts, or is it just guidance and the districts can make their own policies?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Well, funny you should ask that question, because it is mere guidance. However, the attorney general thought it was within his purview to try to take it a step further and mandate school districts to do such. He was dealt quite a blow when it was reaffirmed that this was guidance and was not approved at all by the legislature or codified into law.

Now, my stance does align with Jack Ciattarelli. Parents have a fundamental liberty interest that's recognized by the US Supreme Court to make decisions concerning care, custody, and control of their children. When a school district withholds information about a child's gender identity, it interferes with those parental rights, particularly the right to consent to psychological or medical treatment, the right to provide moral and emotional guidance.

Parental notification isn't about politics. It's about constitutional due process. I firmly believe, and Jack agrees, that parents have a right to know, a right to guide, and a right to protect their children. For some reason, schools in the state of New Jersey and the Department of Education has somehow villainized parents and are going at the approach that parents are somehow the enemy to be shielded from their own children. It's baffling.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker, as the Democrat and Mikie Sherrill supporter here, how would you further describe the confidentiality and privacy provision in the state guidelines if we haven't done it enough justice in your opinion? I couldn't find an explicit Mikie Sherrill statement on it, so do you know her position?

Senator Zwicker: Congresswoman Sherrill supports all students. One of the things we have to look at here is what exactly is going on, and why are we talking about parental rights in this day and age, when the key thing here is are we protecting students and all students? The reality is, in the vast majority of the small number of cases that we're even talking about, there's close, close communication with the families.

I'm a parent myself. I talk to my children all the time. They're grown now, but the reality is that it is in a very rare number of cases where a school administrator has to decide whether or not a student is safe and make a decision there. We have very strong laws against discrimination overall, and this is a very, very small number of cases that we're talking about.

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Brian--

Brian Lehrer: Your position, Senator, is what, if you want to engage in this debate? It should not be mandatory for the state to notify parents if their kids start changing their pronouns or other gender identity markers in school. If not, why not?

Senator Zwicker: Yes, it's currently not mandatory to do this, and it's worked quite well. Schools have this option. They can repeal this rule that you referred to. When that happens, then there's been court proceedings because of our law against discrimination. The New Jersey appellate court has affirmed preliminary injunctions blocking districts from enforcing this amended notification policies. This is in the courts right now. Parents already have a right to know. This is a very small number of cases. Yes, these rules should stay in place to give administrators, guidance counselors, social workers the ability to look at a case-by-case basis.

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Senator, let's be clear that the guidance actually prohibited notification of parents. Let's call it for what it is. I myself have a bit of experience in this arena as a former middle-school principal, and now a district-level administrator in a New Jersey public charter school. I understand you're speaking from a very political, 10,000-feet level. I live it, and I believe it should be a case-by-case basis. Parents should not automatically be villainized, and guidance that masquerades as if it is the law serves nobody.

Senator Zwicker: I would just--

Brian Lehrer: That means, Assemblywoman, that you also believe in a case-by-case basis that it shouldn't be mandatory for the schools to inform the parents?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: I think the only case that schools should not notify the parents if there is documented history of physical abuse towards that student. There are rare cases of abusive home settings, and yet the school does need to protect the students in that setting. What's troubling is this attorney general and the Democrat majority tend to lean towards that being the rule and not the exception. Only in the rare case of abuse in the home should that ever be withheld from a parent.

Brian Lehrer: Is that Mr. Ciattarelli's position as you understand it, or would he go for a full mandate under any circumstances?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: No, not under any circumstances. I have heard Jack Ciattarelli speak about this frequently. Again, only in the rare case of an abusive home setting would any information ever be kept from a parent.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker, why shouldn't that be the standard?

Senator Zwicker: The answer is that, that is already the standard. I disagree with the assemblywoman when she says that we're vilifying parents. The standard is right now that our social workers and guidance counselors and principals, as she said, as a former one, will work closely with parents and family members today, unless there is deep concern. It seems to me that for the most part, while we're using different language, that we tend to agree here.

Assemblywoman Fantasia: We definitely do agree, which is why Policy 5756 prohibiting the notification appearance is entirely unnecessary.

Senator Zwicker: As I said--

Brian Lehrer: Maybe there's no issue.

Senator Zwicker: I'm sorry.

Brian Lehrer: Are you agreeing that there's actually no issue here and no disagreement between the two of you as a Democratic and Republican legislator, and, therefore, maybe no difference between Mikie Sherrill and Jack Ciattarelli?

Senator Zwicker: No, I think the difference is that I see no reason to repeal this rule, and the assemblywoman, as she just said, says it should be repealed.

Assemblywoman Fantasia: It should be repealed because, as Senator Zwicker is not acknowledging, Policy 5756 explicitly prohibits school staff from notifying a parent. That's ludicrous.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's go on to another parental rights issue as the Ciattarelli campaign frames it. Parental rights or inclusive education policy, as LGBTQ advocates call this one. The question is whether parents should be able to opt their kids out of lessons that include education about LGBTQ individuals and families. Before we play a clip of Mikie Sherrill, can you describe the policy as you see it, Senator?

Senator Zwicker: Parents, and I am a parent as I mentioned, already have the right in New Jersey to opt out of curriculum for any reason in any topic, whether or not that's LGBTQ history or mathematics. The question at hand is, why has this become an issue, and why is there a focus on LGBTQ issues? What are people afraid of here? What is the difference between teaching civil rights, women's rights, or LGBTQ rights in history?

Brian Lehrer: All right, and we'll get your response after the clip, Assemblywoman. Here's Ms. Sherrill. This is from a Democratic primary debate in May on NJ Spotlight.

Congresswoman Mikie Sherrill: Look, I believe that parents have the right to oversee their children's education. I would push an LGBTQ education into our schools. Parents have a right to opt out of a lot of things, but this is not an area where they should be opting out, because this is an area of understanding the background of people throughout our nation. Right now, we see, for example, at the Naval Academy, an erasure of history.

Brian Lehrer: Mikie Sherrill there. Assemblywoman Fantasia, you do not support that position, I gather. What do you want parents to be able to do in this context?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Well, New Jersey law already recognizes that parents have the right to excuse their child from certain instruction, as the senator said, when it comes to the sexual health curriculum. However, under NJSA 18A:35-4.7, parents can only opt their child out of sex education and family life portions by written request with no penalty.

As far as the 2019 law that requires instruction about the political, economic, social contributions of LGBTQ individuals, and they coupled that with people with disabilities, which I was surprised that they put those two together, currently, there's no opt-out provision for that component because it's embedded within our history standards, our civic standards. However, parental transparency and communication are essential. Parents should always know when and how this content is being taught.

It should never be dismissed as intolerant for wanting clarity and involvement. You have parents who have religious objections. Parents have a right to guide their children's moral and educational development. It's not extremism. It's not bigoted. That's the freedom of being a parent and being able to morally guide your child. I am not passing a value judgment either way. What I am saying is that the choice should be left up to parents. Certainly, not the congresswoman.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker?

Senator Zwicker: Congresswoman is not suggesting in any way, shape, or form that she's passing a moral judgment either. If someone wishes to remove their child from sexual health curriculum, they already can. I think the question at hand is, again, parents have the right to talk to their teachers, talk to their administrators. Nothing has changed here.

What the Congressman is alluding to is the fact that there is a movement ahead to try to erase pieces of our history, including an LGBTQ part of our history, whether that is the fight for equal rights or whether that is what is going on today when it comes to this movement to try to negate parts of our history. Parents have this option already. It seems to me that, again, we are villainizing a group of individuals at this moment in our history.

Brian Lehrer: I don't think this is about teaching LGBTQ history only. Assemblywoman Fantasia, tell me what you think it's actually about that you want parents to be able to opt out of. Is it about teaching the basics of what is it to be gay? There are some gay individuals in our midst, perhaps. There are some gay parents, perhaps in our family community. Here is what it means, or to be bi or trans. What is it exactly that the parents who want to opt out, in your opinion, are trying to not expose their children to?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Well, I cannot speak for all parents, all moral or religious parts of the spectrum, but what I can say with certainty is that when we are talking about any of these issues, it has to be age-appropriate. That seems to be the red flag that's going up now. Another troubling piece is that Senator alludes to the fact that we're trying to erase history. No one is trying to erase history. It's as if the progressive left feels that Republicans don't have members of this community in their own families, in their own circle, as co-workers, as colleagues, as loved ones. That is not it at all. What it is, is parents, not the government, retain the right to choose what their children are exposed to. It's plain and simple.

Senator Zwicker: Assemblywoman, parents already have that right in New Jersey. The question is, why a focus, all of a sudden, on LGBTQ issues?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: I think the reason for that, I think you know the answer, is that the progressive Democrats are consistently pushing the envelope further and further in younger and younger grades. Senator, you're a physicist and a very good one. No doubt in my mind. You would then know that for an action, there's an equal and opposite reaction. The reaction is parent outrage when things are pushed on their children when they are too young.

Brian Lehrer: Is this just about age appropriateness?

Senator Zwicker: Thank you for the compliment.

Brian Lehrer: Let me ask a follow-up question here. Assemblywoman, is this just about age appropriateness? In your opinion, is this what Mr. Ciattarelli is arguing for? Maybe there's going to be common ground on, "Okay, you can introduce LGBTQ material in middle school, but not in elementary school," or is it more like there are some parents who religiously believe that being gay or lesbian or bi or trans is morally wrong, and they don't want that kind of inclusive education to make it seem like they're just other people?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Again, I can't speak for all parties. I do know that some may hold a religious belief that would preclude their children being exposed to anything along those lines while the child is a minor. What I have heard Jack Ciattarelli say clearly is his number one focus is on the age appropriateness of what is being introduced to children in the public schools.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker, more common ground than one may think or not?

Senator Zwicker: Yes and no. I think what the assemblywoman is not saying is, okay, well, we have a state curriculum. We have a group of experts, we call them "teachers," that are working with educational experts and child psychologists to put together an age-appropriate curriculum for all topics. The question at hand is, all of a sudden, it seems that the LGBTQ community is being singled out. Curriculum here is being singled out is somehow not age-appropriate.

I trust the educational experts. I trust teachers. I trust those who devote their lives to this. As we've said from the beginning, if an individual parent disagrees, they already have the ability to take their child out of that lesson. The issue at hand here is, what about every other parent? Let's be inclusive for all. For those who, for whatever their reason, I'm not passing a moral judgment either, take their child out, that's fine. For everybody else, we're going to do this because it is part of who we are as a culture, and it's important for our education.

Brian Lehrer: Senator, Sherrill said in the clip that this is part of an erasure of history that's taking place even at the Naval Academy, where she went to school. In that context, I'm curious, is today's holiday an issue between the two of you, as you see it, Columbus Day and/or Indigenous Peoples' Day, Senator Zwicker, for you as the Democrat and Mikie Sherrill supporter here?

Senator Zwicker: Sure. I think that the issue, of course, is the controversy over the treatment of the Indigenous people from Christopher Columbus, but we've seen this in lots of places. The goal here is not to erase our history. It's to teach our children the history of our country and where we are to this day. Some of that includes things that are not the most wonderful parts of our history, including racism and violence, et cetera. From my position, it is we need to teach the entire history of Christopher Columbus and not just a portion of it. We may be in agreement. I don't know. That's up to the assemblywoman.

Brian Lehrer: Assemblywoman?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Well, what I can speak on that is many don't even understand the history of Columbus Day. On March 14th of 1891, 11 Italians were lynched in New Orleans, and it was the largest mass lynching of the American South. Columbus Day was born out of President Harrison, knowing that Italians were facing bigotry, institutionalized discrimination.

He knew they faced mob violence throughout the country, and he tried to make things right. He decided to use the office of the president to acknowledge the contributions of Italians and Italian Americans to the United States. That's how Columbus Day was born. Now, we can discuss the contributions or the transgressions of Christopher Columbus, but oftentimes, we lose sight of that. I think that's what really stoked the ire of Italian Americans, and I happen to be one.

Brian Lehrer: That's your position. On Ciattarelli, I couldn't find this clip, the audio, but the New Jersey Globe has an article from last month about a Black ministers group objecting to something Ciattarelli said at a campaign meeting with Black clergy last month in response to a question. He called Columbus Day the nation's "first civil rights holiday." The group strongly objected to that, saying, "To invoke Columbus, a man who initiated the transatlantic slave trade, who captured and sold Indigenous people into bondage, and whose voyages laid the foundation for centuries of racial terror as a symbol of civil rights, is not just historically inaccurate. It is morally bankrupt."

During that same conversation, they go on, "Jack stated that he would roll back the scope of the Amistad mandate to teach Black history in schools. His comments are a slap in the face to every ancestor who died for freedom," from that Black minister's group. Assemblywoman, do you argue that people shouldn't be offended by calling Columbus Day the first civil rights holiday, given his full history after landing here?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Well, first, what I could say is that I was not privy to the conversation that happened at that meeting, so I'm not comfortable commenting on it, but what I can say is what I just shared is that in the late 1800s, it was the largest mass lynching due to bigoted views against Italian Americans. The President at the time sought to write that transgression against a marginalized group who had immigrated to this country. That, in my mind, takes absolutely nothing away from the horrific history of Black Americans, of African Americans, who were brought here against their will and suffered terrible, terrible transgressions against them. I do not believe that the two cannot coexist.

Brian Lehrer: If it's taught as Columbus Day/Indigenous Peoples' Day in the schools, because that's the context of this conversation, is what the policy in the schools and the practice and the curriculum in the schools should be, if it's taught both ways, that's okay with you, Assemblywoman. You presume that would be okay with Governor Ciattarelli if he's elected?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Again, I cannot speak for Jack Ciattarelli, but what I can say is one thing I agree with Senator Zwicker on is that we cannot gloss over history from any topic whatsoever. We should not erase any of it because it makes us uncomfortable. We should share facts, the good, the bad, the ugly, all at the same time. Again, it is somewhat troubling to Italian Americans that the holiday is pushed aside under the banner of people pointing out their feelings about Christopher Columbus and not acknowledging the fact of why the holiday was established to begin with.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker, common ground on this?

Senator Zwicker: I think so. I think we agree that it is important to teach all of our history, whether that is about what Columbus did and his various actions, or whether that's our LGBT history or whether it is Black history and Latino history. Back to the congresswoman's comments, as we have seen at the federal level, an attempt to start to literally erase, remove from--

Brian Lehrer: This is to Congresswoman Sherrill's comments you're referring, right?

Senator Zwicker: Yes, exactly. I'm sorry. Congresswoman Sherrill. To literally erase pieces of history for political purposes. Sure, I agree with the assemblywoman that it is critically important that we teach all of our history.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, call in and make your case. We'll have time for a few phone calls or some texts to read, if you want to, on any of these New Jersey school culture war issues that we're discussing as Issue 16 in our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series, opt-out provisions for LGBTQ lessons or other curriculum material parents don't want their kids exposed to, parental notification when a student changes their identity at school and under what circumstances.

These are things Jack Ciattarelli is explicitly running on. There's also the freedom to read. No book-banning legislation that Governor Murphy signed last year and how to teach today's holiday. After a break, we'll go on-- Oh, if I'm inviting you to call and text, I should give you the number, which is 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. After a break, we'll go on to the Freedom to Read Act, as it's called, that our Democratic guest sponsored and our Republican guest opposed. Stay with us.

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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. We're discussing New Jersey school culture war issues, often described as parental rights issues, Issue 16 in our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. One of the issues is the bill passed by the legislature and signed into law last year by Governor Murphy called the Freedom to Read Act. You'll hear the governor place this in the context of parental rights as he sees them in this from the signing ceremony.

Governor Phil Murphy: This law will strengthen, not diminish, the rights of parents to choose what reading materials their children should or should not have access to by ensuring that every family can make their own determination about what books are appropriate for a child. That is why this legislation mandates that books cannot be removed from our libraries solely based on the origin, background, or views contained within the text, or because an individual finds it offensive. At the same time, it also empowers local communities to engage in a transparent and thoughtful discussion on the books that should or should not remain in our libraries.

Brian Lehrer: Governor Murphy there. I don't remember the keyboardist playing, accompany him in the original announcement, but that's the version we have. Senator Zwicker, this was your bill. Want to say more about it?

Senator Zwicker: Yes, thank you. I was there when the governor played that clip when the clip was there. I wrote this bill and worked closely with Senate Majority Leader Teresa Ruiz and Assemblywoman Mitchelle Drulis to pass it through both houses of legislature after listening to a librarian who's now retired, Martha Hickson, who's really been an advocate on this, talk about the just enormous amount of online abuse and verbal abuse to her face and her car being keyed because she refused to take a book off the shelf.

The Freedom to Read bill was inspired by that. As the governor alludes to, its basic premise is that each parent continues to have the freedom to choose what they want their child to read. Parents have the freedom to choose always, but no one gets to decide for you. That's the key piece here. It standardizes how a book can be challenged. It doesn't stop it in any way, shape, or form. Parents are put onto the committee. That's why it's a parent's rights bill as well.

It does things like, say, you have to live in the community where you want to challenge the book. Be in the town, for instance, because there's a Washington Post article a few years ago that said that, roughly, a dozen people were responsible for the vast majority of challenges around the country. This is a basic bill that allows freedom for people to read. It keeps books on the shelves unless they are deemed to be inappropriate. It was bipartisan in both houses. The assemblywoman came and testified against it, but it seems to be a very common-sense bill, a simple bill.

Brian Lehrer: Assemblywoman Fantasia, I read that you booed at the signing ceremony. Is that accurate? If so, why was that?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: I wasn't at the signing ceremony because I would not attend such nonsense. What I can say is if you can't read it aloud on public radio, it doesn't belong in a middle school. I call it the so-called Freedom to Read Act because it protects the adults who make bad decisions, not children who are exposed to those bad decisions. I could not read aloud on this very program or even on the floor. I would not disrespect the floor of any of the legislative houses.

Some of the passages that appear in these allegedly banned book displays, that's how far we've drifted. To give you a little bit of color on it, some of the books that are most often challenged, the left tends to equate it to bigotry, and we don't want LGBTQ exposure. I was an English teacher before I was a school administrator. Let me tell you, this isn't where we're talking about The Picture of Dorian Gray, which has some homosexual undertones, where, in the past, that would be deemed a "banned book" if it had been removed.

This is Fifty Shades of Gray level. We have books about using sex toys, using sexual aids, how to take the best naked selfie, advising children to research their favorite adult film stars. There's graphic drawings of toys and performing oral acts on such toys. This is all masquerading under freedom. We put them in our school libraries and say, "Parents, you have a right to say your child can't do that."

Well, you know what we don't do? We don't put pornographic magazines in libraries. We don't offer cigarettes and alcohol because those are illegal. In my opinion, when I went to testify in front of Senator Zwicker, who was actually leading that committee in the absence of Senator Vin Gopal at the time, his exact words, and I quote, were, "Although some of these materials are sexually explicit, none have been deemed obscene."

To me, apples and oranges, no. Apples to apples. To children, sexually explicit and obscenity are the same. We're not talking about adults. We're talking about children. These types of materials cannot be hidden behind, "Oh, but if you don't agree with it, you must be bigoted. It must be an LGBTQ issue." It is not. It does not matter what type of sex, heterosexual sex, homosexual sex, or anything on the spectrum. It's beyond inappropriate to expose our children to such, should not be in our public school libraries.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker, do you accept the idea that this is not about bigotry against LGBTQ kids or others, and that this is just about protecting kids of too young age from sexually explicit material of any kind?

Senator Zwicker: Let's start with a few statistics. Roughly 10,000 book-ban attempts since 2021. Of those, about 36% involve LGBTQ+ characters or themes. About 37% involve characters of color, themes of race and racism. That's first thing. Second, the assemblywoman may be uncomfortable with certain things in certain books, but no book that she's talking about that is being challenged around the country, though now in New Jersey, we've now passed this law to stop this from happening, for these political reasons have been deemed obscene.

Obscenity is defined in our laws. Quite frankly, it is, as she alluded to, illegal for a librarian, let's say, to give an obscene piece of material to a minor. Yet, no librarian has been arrested, of course not, because these books are not obscene. These books are award-winning books. These books that are being challenged include books from Toni Morrison, one of the greatest authors in all of our history. The issue here again is, are we going to erase important stories from our students' access to them?

The reality is that parents already again have the ability to go to a librarian and say, "I don't want my child to have access to blank." That's fine. Those librarians will honor that. They will honor that before the Freedom to Read law was passed. They honor it after. People don't get to say these books need to be taken from these shelves. These books have been chosen by experts in child psychology, education, librarians. I couldn't disagree with the assemblywoman more on this particular fact.

Brian Lehrer: Here's a two-part question for you, Assemblywoman, from a listener and a text message. Listener writes on this particular issue you were just discussing, "Please ask the assemblywoman if we should also ban the Bible from schools since we also cannot read parts of it on the radio airwaves." They also ask, "Please ask the assemblywoman, why not change Columbus Day to Italian American Day since Columbus is a real villain?"

Assemblywoman Fantasia: All right. Well, to answer that question, I don't make those laws. A state legislator does not make a law as to what we name a federal holiday. Secondarily, I would like to circle back to the--

Brian Lehrer: You could advocate.

Assemblywoman Fantasia: I'm sorry, sir?

Brian Lehrer: You could advocate if you chose, right?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Okay. If I so chose, I would like to circle back to Senator Zwicker. Again, I fail. I fail. I think this is an 80/20 issue. I fail to see the educational value of teaching children how to use sexual aids with lubrication or paying for pornography when that is illegal. That is 100% within these books. He knows it. Martha Hickson knows it. The progressive left knows it. For some reason, they stand behind this false moral flag. It's absolutely inappropriate for children, for minors to be exposed to such. It's complete nonsense.

Brian Lehrer: Senator, one more time on that.

Senator Zwicker: I'm not sure which book specifically she's referring to, but these books are not in elementary schools. They're not in middle schools. They are in high schools. They win awards. She's picking a page out of a book, which is a story about a young person's path in life. These are stories that individuals are looking right now at a time when they're trying to find out who they are in the world. To remove these books from the shelves for all is censorship. Plain and simple.

Brian Lehrer: Are you making a case that this is about removing, let's say, excellent pieces of literature? There may be a passage here and there that's sexually explicit and introduces concepts that a child of certain ages may not have been exposed to before and shouldn't be exposed to in this way, which is what the assemblywoman is arguing, or are you arguing that this is a backdoor way to marginalize LGBTQ people, especially?

Senator Zwicker: I'm actually arguing both. It's about censorship, and it is about not just LGBTQ marginalization, but people of color at the same time. When two-thirds of the books are either LGBTQ characters, themes, or involve themes of race and racism, you have to start questioning what's going on.

Brian Lehrer: What about that stat, Assemblywoman, where you're talking about things that might qualify as porn, and he's saying, "Well, look at the stats on what's actually being taken out of the libraries"? There's another agenda here.

Assemblywoman Fantasia: I would dare say that any book, and I'll reiterate this again, regardless of race, regardless of sexual orientation, if they involve minors committing sex acts on each other, sometimes even on adults, high-schoolers, freshmen are 14 years old. I don't believe the senator would have turned over his credit card to his 14-year-old child to purchase porn or research his favorite porn star, as some of these books instruct. We also don't show rated-R or NC-17 films in schools because of gratuitous sexual scenes. To say that it cannot be removed based upon that is ludicrous.

Brian Lehrer: If you were to get this law repealed under Governor Ciattarelli, would you place anything in there to help ensure that it's not used for the sake of bias, removing things that are examples of Black history or Black-oriented literature or LGBTQ, and only to the particular objection that you were raising about age appropriateness?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Well, what I'm saying is I find it incredibly troubling to assume that any books regarding LGBTQ or people of color have to contain gratuitous, sexually explicit materials exposing minors to such. Do you mean to tell me there are no pieces of literature, that this is the only standard bearer that we have to actually expose children to the rich history of the Black community? That's nonsense.

Brian Lehrer: That's not what they're saying. They're saying-- Well, Senator, you're on the other side of this. You respond.

Senator Zwicker: Well, I would say this. Under the law, under the New Jersey Freedom to Read law that is now in effect, the assemblywoman has the ability in her local community to challenge any book she wants right now. If she wants to do that, that's fine. Then there will be a process put into place to decide whether or not that book should be pulled off the shelf. She doesn't get to decide what people choose to read, what books are on the shelves. If she wants to challenge a book, go right ahead. Challenge a book. We've got this in place, and we'll go from there.

Brian Lehrer: Let me take two contrasting callers back to one of the earlier issues we discussed in the school culture wars as an issue in the New Jersey gubernatorial race discussion. Vivian in Jersey City, then Craig in Morganville, you're going to be second. I'm going to give you each one minute because we're running out of time. Vivian, thank you for calling in. You're on WNYC. Go for it.

Vivian: Yes, I have so much to say based off of what the assemblywoman said. She said hiding behind false moral flags on the left, but that's exactly what she is doing here. She is taking absolutely the most extreme and rare examples and holding them up as if they are the standard bearer in our schools.

Brian Lehrer: This is about the ability of parents to opt out from LGBTQ-oriented instruction, is that right, Vivian?

Vivian: Yes, I would like to say that as a preschool teacher, when children ask questions about what it means to have two mommies or two daddies or use they/them pronouns, we explain what that means. She is acting like we are giving instructions on how they have sex with one another. The right takes these tiny, very gentle lessons and exploits them and exaggerates them into something that they absolutely are not and never were and never will be. The same thing with literature. Everything that she is saying is so rare and so uncommon. Saying that there is porn or sexually explicit materials in middle schools and high schools is simply not true.

Brian Lehrer: I'm going to leave it there and take Craig in Morganville next. Craig, you're on WNYC.

Craig: Hey, how are you doing, guys? I think both of you are incorrect. Both of you are taking the ultimate ends of the spectrum. The gentleman there, instead of talking about how there are some books that are only age-appropriate. Fifty Shades of Gray, are you kidding me? The other woman there will take it to the extreme by, "There are people in this country who are trying to ban The Great Gatsby and Robinson Crusoe and other things like that."

There are some things that should only be age-appropriate, which is what the progressive gentleman there should be saying, and is using it as a bully pulpit for only free speech. Okay, we're not talking about The New York Public Library. We're talking about schools. Something should be age-appropriate. There is no way the woman there that there are sexual devices that are done to enhance literature. It doesn't work like that.

Brian Lehrer: Craig, thank you. The woman he refers to is Assemblywoman Dawn Fantasia, Republican assemblywoman. The man is Democratic State Senator Andrew Zwicker for just another few minutes. Last issue, homeschooling. We have a clip of Jack Ciattarelli on this from the rally by the group Moms for Liberty.

Jack Ciattarelli: We now have an assault on parental rights with regard to homeschooling. There are numerous bills in our state legislature to make it almost impossible to homeschool your child and implement a curriculum if the homeschooling is approved, which are the very reasons why the parents pull their children out of the public school system to begin with.

Brian Lehrer: Assemblywoman, you agree with Mr. Ciattarelli. What's the current state of regulation? I'm going to ask you to be brief on this. What's the current state of regulation with respect to homeschooling, and what is he getting at there to change?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Well, quite surprisingly, New Jersey does have presently solid laws protecting homeschooling. However, there are some Democrat proposals to challenge that. Again, parents have a fundamental liberty interest recognized in the Constitution and by the Supreme Court reaffirmed to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children. This situation was decided 100 years ago. There was a Supreme Court case, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, saying that, and I quote, "The child is not the mere creature of the state."

What that is, is that parents retain the right as to what they are teaching. There's actually a nefarious bill up that's requiring parents to align their homeschool curriculum to that of the New Jersey Department of Education. That is unconstitutional. It will not pass constitutional muster. They're also asking to insert themselves for well check visits, health mandates, et cetera. It is not the role of the state to make these decisions for all parents, so there needs to be protections in place.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker, I couldn't find a Mikie Sherrill position on this in writing or a clip. Do you know it?

Senator Zwicker: I don't know it specifically, but I can tell you that Jack Ciattarelli and the assemblywoman are both misleading the issue here. New Jersey is known as one of the least-regulated homeschooling states in the country. We don't have laws prohibiting homeschooling in any way, shape, or form. There are some proposals out there that the assemblywoman is alluding to that would say that things like, well, once a year, a homeschool parent needs to check in and talk to an administrator. There was a case, a horrific case of child abuse that has triggered a lot of headlines. Look, I get it. I've talked to homeschool parents. The vast, vast, vast 99% are just trying to do the right thing for their children. They can do that now, and they can absolutely do that in a Mikie Sherrill administration.

Brian Lehrer: One follow-up on this, Assemblywoman. I know people who've homeschooled their kids in New York. There is or was, at the time, a requirement to let the school system know that you are providing a basic education in the basic subjects and have your curriculum plan, more or less, approved. Would that be so bad, in your opinion, if New Jersey had that requirement?

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Curriculum does not need to be approved. Where it stands currently is parents just need to affirm in writing that they are making the decision to homeschool their children. Again, it is not the state's responsibility, nor is it constitutionally protected or affirmed by the Supreme Court that any type of work, portfolio, anything along those lines need to be shared. Now, please keep in mind that in New Jersey, homeschoolers accept zero financial support from the state. The school district retains the full per pupil cost for that student who's not attending. They are receiving nothing from the state. Their rights need to be respected.

Brian Lehrer: Senator Zwicker, you're arguing, I guess, that it's not just about abuse. It's about academic basics, and the state should have some oversight to make sure that homeschooled kids are really getting schooled?

Senator Zwicker: Look, this is about foundational skills, math, reading, science, civics, et cetera. I just don't see how a once-a-year check-in to talk about foundational skills is somehow infringing on a parent's right to homeschool a child. These are very common-sense, basic types of proposals.

Brian Lehrer: Well, thank you both very much for engaging in our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series, Issue 16, school culture wars as an issue in the New Jersey governor's race. There are so many of them. We got to a number of them, so I'm glad we got that far. Democratic State Senator Andrew Zwicker, Republican State Assemblywoman Dawn Fantasia, thank you very much for this time and for engaging with each other.

Senator Zwicker: Thank you, Brian.

Assemblywoman Fantasia: Thank you. Thank you, Brian.

 

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