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Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Now, we continue our election series, 30 Issues in 30 Days. It's Day 19 and Issue 19. Abortion rights as an issue in the New Jersey governor's race. With me now to explain the positions of Republican Jack Ciattarelli and Democrat Mikie Sherrill and what could change if either is elected is Terrence McDonald, editor at the New Jersey Monitor. The Monitor published an article last week called Governor's Race Could Alter Abortion Landscape in New Jersey. Terrence, thanks for coming on with us. Welcome to WNYC today.

Terrence McDonald: Thanks for having me, Brian.

Brian Lehrer: Listeners, we'll be joined shortly by Dr. Kristyn Brandi, an OB-GYN who practices in New Jersey and who was the board chair of Physicians for Reproductive Health. Let's start with two clips from the recent televised debate on the ABC stations in New York and Philadelphia. Here's Sherrill using a horror story from Texas to spotlight a position that she says Ciattarelli holds for New Jersey.

Mikie Sherrill: We're hearing stories across the country about horrible outcomes like Portia, a woman in Texas who went to the emergency room as she was miscarrying two young children at home. As she was miscarrying, they gave her multiple transfusions. Because of abortion bans like the one my opponent is proposing, the doctors were afraid to give her a D&C or an abortion to take save her life, so she died in an emergency room. Purely preventable, could have been taken care of. When you put in place things like my opponent has suggested, people die. We also have the fact that when he was last in office, he voted to defund Planned Parenthood. These are not pro-choice positions.

Brian Lehrer: Mikie Sherrill there. Jack Ciattarelli responded this way in the debate, framing himself as pro-choice, as you'll hear. You'll also hear, it sounds like he basically doesn't want New Jersey to get involved in Texas's problems.

Jack Ciattarelli: I've always supported a woman's right to choose, and I said yes to that question back in 2021. What I don't support is celebrating abortion the way the current administration does. What I don't support is making New Jersey the abortion capital of the country, inviting other people, people from other states, to come to New Jersey and have their abortions performed. I don't support that, let alone use taxpayer dollars to do that.

Brian Lehrer: There are Sherrill and Ciattarelli. Terrence McDonald from New Jersey Monitor, when Ciattarelli says he doesn't want New Jersey inviting in people from other states, his words, what specifically is he referring to there? I think your article refers to Governor Murphy declaring New Jersey as a safe haven, so explain the issue there if you can.

Terrence McDonald: Right, that's exactly it. After right around the time that the Dobbs decision came out, which overturned Roe v. Wade, Governor Phil Murphy and a bunch of statewide Democrats said that they were going to make New Jersey a safe haven for people who are seeking abortions and are from states where it was going to be restricted or banned entirely and for abortion providers for a similar reason. They said they would protect New Jersey, would protect both of these folks from any states that were threatening to prosecute them for coming to New Jersey for these reasons.

Brian Lehrer: How would Ciattarelli's position change that? What would he have to do?

Terrence McDonald: That's a good question. Largely, he would have to issue, I believe, an executive order that would say that we're not going to protect people. Our laws are not going to protect abortion providers or people seeking abortions from other states.

Brian Lehrer: Your article says people on both sides of the issue think a Ciattarelli election could make the state's abortion landscape look vastly different. Here's another way that he brought up at the debate.

Jack Ciattarelli: I also support something that my opponent does not, parental notification. In the state of New Jersey, you can't get your ears pierced under the age of 18 without the permission of your parents, but we're not going to notify parents when a 16 or 17-year-old is having an abortion before him?

Brian Lehrer: Now, Sherrill didn't respond specifically to that in the debate. What's the current state of parental notification law on abortion in New Jersey?

Terrence McDonald: Well, that's fairly accurate, what Jack Ciattarelli says. I think his comments are an attempt by him to portray his position as the moderate, non-extremist position, and to portray Mikie Sherrill's as the more extremist one.

Brian Lehrer: Well, do teenagers actually need parental permission to get their ears pierced in New Jersey? Do you know if he was speaking accurate restriction on that?

Terrence McDonald: I don't have children, but judging by my niece, I do believe that, at some point, yes, parents have to go with them to sign a little waiver saying that they're allowed to pierce their child's ears.

Brian Lehrer: All right, let's bring in now Dr. Kristyn Brandi, an OB-GYN who has practiced in New Jersey and has been the board chair of Physicians for Reproductive Health. She is also in the process of opening an abortion clinic in New Jersey called Luminosas Wellness Collective, to be located in Hudson County. Dr. Brandi, thanks for giving us a few minutes. Welcome back to WNYC.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Thank you so much for having me back.

Brian Lehrer: Would you start by giving us the big picture as you see it on what has changed during the Governor Murphy years? You heard us refer to as safe haven policy, for example.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Sure. Since the Murphy administration, I think we've seen a lot of great changes for reproductive health care and health care in general in our state. I remember going back even farther in the Chris Christie administration. I was a resident at the time, training. I remember one day, we had contraception, birth control in our office, being able to give it to patients for free. The next day, we didn't. I remember those restrictions that happened during those years. It was really hard to navigate all of those restrictions for patients.

Then the Murphy administration came in. We had more strong protections from things like abortion access, making sure that insurances cover it, making sure that we work on other types of health care like gender-affirming care, HIV management, things that have historically been marginalized. As you've alluded to, things can change in this next election. I'm really worried about what happens if we are going backwards into a situation where there's going to be more bans on health care, including abortion care.

Brian Lehrer: Well, on the issue of parental notification that Mr. Ciattarelli raises, do you argue that a minor should be able to get an abortion without telling her parents? Ciattarelli seems to be advocating parental notification, not going all the way to parental consent. If you're 16 years old, 17 years old, 15 years old, you have to at least tell your parents.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I would argue that that's an unsafe thing, and we've seen that in other states. I trained in Boston, where we did have a parental notification rule. That often caused my minor patients to not get care or be very worried about getting care, and doing things like a judicial bypass, where they would have to go to a judge and explain to the judge why they needed this care.

We were lucky that we had navigators to help teenagers through that process. You can imagine being a 14 or 15-year-old having to go to a judge and justify why you need this. It's a really scary thing. I've been in situations taking care of patients that are teenagers that are victims of violence from their family members are really worried about them being kicked out of their house if their parents found out.

I don't want to endanger my patients by notifying their parents about things going on that, at times, patients that I can see and talk to, and talk to their options, they can make those decisions that are well-informed without their parents. I will say that most of the times when I see teenagers, they do come with their parents. They are talking to their parents about these decisions. It's a rare circumstance, but there's a reason why we make sure that that's not the case in New Jersey. I don't want us to have to add that additional barrier to people accessing this care.

Brian Lehrer: Now, Jack Ciattarelli has also called for another change, banning third-trimester abortions. Here he is when he was running for governor in 2021 on New Jersey public television.

Jack Ciattarelli: It's a law that would allow abortion in months seven, eight, and nine, right up to the day of delivery as performed by somebody other than an MD. If that's not extremism, I don't know what is.

Brian Lehrer: Terrence McDonald, first from New Jersey Monitor, that didn't come up at the debate the other week, but does Ciattarelli still hold that position?

Terrence McDonald: Yes, so Jack Ciattarelli has told us and has said publicly that he supports abortion up until 20 weeks, and then afterwards supports restrictions. He has said he would support a bill in the state House, which is not passed, that would do just that.

Brian Lehrer: Dr. Brandi, what's the state law now on that? To people who say, "Well, after 20 weeks, it's really pretty much a baby by then," what's your reaction? What's your argument?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Sure. Currently, in the state of New Jersey, we are one of nine states that does not have a restriction on abortion regarding how far someone is in their pregnancy. That's actually one of the reasons why I came to work here. I was born and raised in New Jersey, but I'm really proud to be able to provide care here because we don't have bans on care like this.

I am one of the providers in our state that provides care later in pregnancy, including after 20 weeks. I can tell you that I've had many patients that, for a lot of different reasons, have come to me at that time and had to make this decision, sometimes a really heartbreaking and difficult decision. They needed that care. I was really lucky to be able to provide that for them.

I've also had patients that I've heard from other places that got turned away because of how far along they were, not recognizing that maybe in their circumstance that there was a fetal anomaly, or that their pregnancy was dangerous to them or to their health. There are so many reasons why people seek abortion later in pregnancy. I'm really worried about not being able to take care of those folks or being scared to take care of those folks because of bans.

I'll also say that I'm worried that this is the start of what happens that we've seen in other states, where, for example, in Florida, they had passed a 15-week ban. Then a couple of years later, they passed a six-week ban. I think that this is potentially a shift that could lead to further changes in the future and impact a lot of people in New Jersey, and have people actually leaving New Jersey to get health care that is currently legal in the state right now.

Brian Lehrer: Well, Terrence, those horrible circumstances, late-discovered fetal abnormalities, needing an abortion for the health or life of the mother later in pregnancy, does Ciattarelli, when he says 20-week ban, lay out what, if any, exceptions he would propose?

Terrence McDonald: Yes, he has said in cases of rape, incest, and if the mother's life is in jeopardy.

Brian Lehrer: Why is that not enough, Dr. Brandi?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: I think when you say "life in jeopardy," I would argue that pregnancy is always a dangerous circumstance compared to not being pregnant. I've talked to doctors from other states that have these similar types of bans with exceptions. Honestly, those exceptions really don't work in reality, that when you read these laws, they're not written by medical professionals. They don't have very clear guidelines of what counts. How long do I have to wait for someone to be bleeding before I can intervene, or how infected do they need to be for me to then intervene?

These laws only serve to prevent people from accessing care they need, even in a dangerous circumstance. They also don't recognize the multitude of other reasons why people may need care. I've had many patients that we talked about, young people already, that didn't know that they were pregnant until they came in. They were 20 weeks and a day. We'd be just over that line and having to make the circumstance of figuring out what to do now, knowing that they couldn't get care in our state.

Brian Lehrer: What was the "performed by someone other than an MD" part of what Ciattarelli was objecting to? Is that, Dr. Brandi, part of the law now?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Currently, we have protections that allow other types of healthcare practitioners to be able to provide health care where, in the past, there were restrictions that doctors only could provide abortion. We have great data that suggests that other types of healthcare professionals, nurse practitioners, nurse midwives, physician assistants, people that have adequate training and is within the scope of their practice, can provide this care.

In fact, I'm opening up this clinic and partnering with the nurse practitioner, who's one of the first people that got trained in procedural abortion after this ban is restricted. I'm so proud to be able to work with her because I know that she has an adequate skill set. She can do a procedural abortion just as well as I can. I think it's great that that law was overturned. I'm worried of actually having more restrictions where we would go back and have restrictions on who could provide care, which will really ruin the safety net of providers we developed in our state over the past couple of years.

Brian Lehrer: By the way, why open a new clinic in Hudson County? New Jersey does have the reputation of being among the states that has the most access to abortion. Is Hudson County or northern New Jersey generally underserved, in your opinion?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Surprisingly, it is. We've actually had studies done by Rutgers University. We have found that Hudson County actually has no abortion providers and very few providers of other types of health care, like HIV treatment and gender-affirming care. That's actually why we are focused on Hudson County, because we know it's one of the most densely populated areas, and no provider, surprisingly.

You'd be surprised that New Jersey, even though we have protective laws, still has a lot of work to do and improving abortion access for people, particularly in Hudson County and in the south of our state, where there are currently no providers as well. There's still a lot of work to New Jersey. I'm hopeful that we'll be able to have a governor that will help expand and protect abortion care and not restrict it.

Brian Lehrer: In your opinion, if Ciattarelli is elected with the changes that he's proposing, if he gets to enact them, would that threaten your ability to open or run the Luminosas Wellness Collective in Hudson County, or being privately funded, which I presume that you would be? Is it irrelevant?

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: It's actually really worrisome, and I'm actually really scared about what happens in a month from now. We're a nonprofit, and so we are funded in part from different organizations. I'm worried about funding being pulled potentially, knowing that a person that would restrict abortion or restrict other health care would be coming into place. Maybe people would recognize that maybe this isn't the state that people should be putting money into to protect care.

In addition to that, again, I'm worried about bans on care, how are clinics will be more easily targeted. For example, there's laws that protect clinics from violence and from protesters, how those will be pulled back if this person is elected governor. There's a lot of things that are concerning about this election. I will say that Luminosas does mean light. One of our taglines is that we want to be a light in the darkness during this really challenging time for reproductive health care. We're going to do our best, and we're going to keep going, but we are really concerned about what this election means for us.

Brian Lehrer: Terrence McDonald from the New Jersey Monitor, last question for you. We've talked about these various changes to the law that Ciattarelli wants to make. Is Sherrill proposing anything new, or is she just defending the abortion rights that the state offers now?

Terrence McDonald: She's defending the current law, and she also told me that she would favor a constitutional amendment for New Jersey's constitution to enshrine abortion rights. That's something that would be a long process and would have to be approved by voters.

Brian Lehrer: There you have it, listeners. Whatever your position is on abortion rights, a lot could change under a Ciattarelli governorship, a lot more than under a Mikie Sherrill governorship, as it's being reported and as both guests here, the journalist and the advocate for abortion rights, are confirming. That's Issue 19 in our 30 Issues in 30 Days election series. Abortion rights as an issue in the New Jersey governor's race. We hope you found it informative. Tomorrow, Issue 20. It'll be a debate for and against Zohran Mamdani's proposal for free buses in New York City. For today, Terrence McDonald and Dr. Brandi, thank you for joining us.

Terrence McDonald: Thank you.

Dr. Kristyn Brandi: Thank you.

Brian Lehrer: Brian Lehrer on WNYC. Much more to come.

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