How Important is College to a Successful Career?
Reporter 1: According to the National Center for Education Statistics, enrollment in vocational and trade schools has seen record growth over the past two decades.
Speaker 1: Our classes are packed out right now.
Speaker 2: The switch from college to trade school is amazing. That was the first time in my whole life that I went to school and I was like, I'm good at this.
Reporter 2: A Georgetown study finds a growing number of people without degrees starting to out-earn college grads.
Speaker 3: I spent six years building a marketing career, and I enrolled myself into a trade school that has nothing to do with the career that I have built.
Reporter 1: Economists expect tradespeople will have no trouble finding work for years to come.
Speaker 4: A lot of people thought of any trade, like plumbers, electricians, welders, so on, those were the dirty jobs, those are the jobs where they couldn't afford to go to college, so they had to do this instead. Now that is definitely starting to change.
Kai Wright: It's Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. Welcome to the show. I want to begin this week by introducing you to a public school teacher, actually a former English teacher, but still an educator, who has gone through a real shift in how she thinks about education and how to get it and what we need in society.
Maya, hey, and welcome to Notes from America.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Hi, Kai. Thank you so much for having me. It's such a joy to get to be with you.
Kai Wright: Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio is the co-founder of The Marcy Lab School in Brooklyn, New York. We will talk about The Marcy Lab in a moment, but first, Maya, I want to get you to share your aha moment, like the backstory for this school you co-created. When you were a public school teacher, you were a big advocate, I gather, of your students going to college, to four-year colleges.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Correct.
Kai Wright: Take me back to that time and tell me how you approached preparing your students for life after high school at that time.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. It really all starts for me back on Marcy Avenue and a public school. I am a child of immigrants, and both of my parents came to America really for a pathway to economic mobility via higher education and college. That was the path that was defined for me. My grandmother was a teacher, and I knew my whole life I'd be following in her footsteps to become a teacher as well, and walked into a school that looks really similar to what K-12 education continues to look like. That the mission is to get your students to college.
You walk into schools and in the network I was a part of, I was working in a charter school, it says on the walls, "Work hard, go to college, and your dreams come true." Classrooms are named after universities as early as kindergarten. I walked into that classroom feeling really, really steadfast on the mission of creating the pathway for my students that my parents were lucky to have had. Yes, and it was-- Go ahead, yes.
Kai Wright: Well, but I gather, at some point, there were some students with whom you had a close relationship who had applied to college and couldn't figure out how to pay for it, and they couldn't get the necessary funding, and you tried to help. Tell me about that moment. What were you doing to help?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. As my students grow older, I grow up with them, so those fifth-graders went off to become seniors and go off to college. At that time, I was a leader at Teach For America, sitting beside my co-founder, actually. My students started to call me, really, saying that they couldn't either financially or emotionally endure the system that we had worked so hard to get into. I started by thinking this was just what Daniel was going through, or this is just what Sanjarae was going through. I would hop on the phone with their financial aid offices and start talking to colleges and seeing what I could do to make sure that they could continue their education and be able to see their way through. It was just really devastating to really realize that the very system that I thought would catalyze them into economic mobility and give them this life-changing experience was actually a system that was breaking them and their families down, putting them into life-altering debt. It was really a moment of obligation that we realized we would have to create a new one.
Kai Wright: I also gather that you realized part of why your students were struggling for money was because they weren't actually applying to these elite Ivy League education schools. They were applying to local and state public colleges. Correct?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Correct.
Kai Wright: Explain why that mattered for them in their effort to get money [crosstalk]--
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes, it's such an important distinction. Such an important distinction. If you are lucky enough to go to some of the top schools in the nation, that often comes with endowments, or comes with an office that can just make sure that you get what you need, and they make that bet when you enter. For the vast majority of higher education as a system, when you particularly think about just New York and the local city and state schools that are great schools that many New York students go through, there just isn't the level of support and/or thought or intention around financial aid packages. In fact, you see that students will often be enrolled in classes, and for many of mine, they didn't even realize that they weren't going to be able to pay until it hit them like a storm, usually rooted in credits or really small lines that ended up really breaking down what was possible for them.
Kai Wright: Yes. Then how did this impact you? How did this shift your thinking from somebody looking at those walls of the school that you taught at, saying, "Go to college, go to college," to something different? What shifted for you?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. I think most deeply, my co-founder and I-- I remember those conversations and they're still seared in my heart. I think the first feeling was feeling complicit; feeling complicit and perpetuating this narrative for the students that I cared so much about. Then realizing that these institutions and the higher education system at large was not centering their needs or who they were or what they needed, and so started to think about, well, what could be possible? What else is there? How could it be that these young people, who are the most brilliant, beautiful, thoughtful, genius humans I've ever met, wouldn't be able to have the opportunities that they deserve?
Really, put my head together with my co-founder, and we drew a ton of inspiration from the college space, the coding boot camp space, and tried to figure out what might be another way to build economic mobility and give our students the college experience that we felt that they deserved, that really kept their humanity and their families and their needs at the center.
Kai Wright: What is The Marcy Lab School that you came up with? Just give a quick breakdown of what it is.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. The Marcy Lab School, it's named after Marcy Avenue where my very first students are from. It's a one-year [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: In central Brooklyn for [crosstalk] [unintelligible 00:07:59]. Marcy Avenue [crosstalk] [unintelligible 00:08:01] central Brooklyn. Go ahead.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. It's a one-year, tuition-free alternative to college for underserved students who don't hold college degrees, for those students who have been failed by the higher education system. We serve 18 to 24-year-olds, and we train them for life-changing careers that build economic mobility and technology, and wrap them around with a ton of leadership and development and support. We work to place them at career-building positions in the tech sector to earn an average salary, ideally above six figures, but that we hope compounds over time, and partner with companies like The New York Times, and Asana, and WW, and J.P. Morgan, to help them build economic mobility in that field, and ultimately live a life of abundance, whatever that looks like for them afterwards [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: A life of abundance, however you get there. How did people in your life react to this? I mean, your father is a college professor, I believe. Like you said, your family came to the United States seeking higher education through opportunity. What was their reaction to this change in how you think?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. I remember sitting down with my dad at a coffee shop and telling him about this idea, and his first reaction was one of skepticism, but also of deep support. When we really started building Marcy, the conversation that we're having today around higher education wasn't as loud and vibrant as it is right now, and so people in my life were really wondering, is this possible? I think really where it came from was mine and my co-founder's deep belief in our students and their potential. A lot of the messages that we got was, this won't be possible. 18 to 24-year-olds without college degrees, competing for roles in the tech sector along four-year-degree computer scientists, you won't be able to do this. I really deeply, deeply believed in the power of my students and what they were capable of. To be able to see them achieve it has been one of the most rewarding experiences of my life.
Kai Wright: What about the idea, though, that is it giving up on the kind of effort that your parents were putting into, and that you, and I guess I don't want to assume, but I believe also went through, in terms of going to a four-year college, the notion that you're encouraging a certain socioeconomic class to give up on that idea?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: It's such a good question and just appreciate you for asking. We really see this as another choice. We know that college is for many. We just know that it's not for everyone, and the system itself is failing many too. We hope that Marcy is really positioned alongside college as an option. One of the most beautiful stories of one of our first graduates, Leisha; she went off to work as a software engineer for three years, was able to save enough money to take her and her family out of poverty, but now is back in college at the school that she dreams of, but with the money that she now has to be able to really enjoy that experience. We really see this as just a pathway, another pathway into economic mobility that we hope serves those that college is failing.
Kai Wright: The idea that it's breaking down the idea that there's only one path-
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Correct.
Kai Wright: -and that it must happen at 24- or at 18, rather, you must go to college or all your doors are shut. That there are multiple paths.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Correct.
Kai Wright: Well, we will continue this conversation. We're going to take a short break. Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio is the co-founder of The Marcy Lab School in New York City. Listeners, we want to hear your own stories and questions about higher education. Has the way you and your family think about college specifically changed over the years and generations? Are you maybe considering higher education now and facing questions about how to make it work for you? We want to hear your thinking, what you're weighing, your conundrums, your questions, your doubts, your disbelief in what Maya has just said. 844-745-8255, you can call us or you can text us. That's 844-745-TALK.
Coming up, we'll explore the shifting ideas around higher education in American life and culture and politics with a writer who's been covering it for many, many years. Maya will stay with us. More just ahead. I'm Kai Wright. This is Notes from America.
This is Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. We are talking this week about shifting perceptions and economic realities around higher education. I've been talking with Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio, who is co-founder of The Marcy Lab School in New York City. It's a year-long fellowship program designed to be an alternative to college for people interested in tech careers. We're joined now by Eric Kelderman, who is senior writer at The Chronicle for Higher Education.
Eric, welcome to Notes from America.
Eric Kelderman: Hey, Kai. It's great to be with you. Thanks.
Kai Wright: I want to talk about the really big-picture cultural stuff around college, and I want to begin with politics because we're pretty close to an election here. It feels like at some point in my adult life, the idea of someone being college-educated, getting a four-year degree from a liberal arts school, this became a political slur in some circles and a flashpoint for the culture wars. I don't know. Maybe that began in the early Obama years, or maybe it goes back further to George W. Bush's efforts to make himself less Yalie and more rural Texan. I'm not sure.
Eric, as someone who has been covering higher ed for a long time, have you witnessed this shift I'm talking about in the way college shows up as either a positive or a negative thing in our political culture?
Eric Kelderman: Yes, sure. Actually, the idea that college is at the center of the culture war has been around much longer. There's a famous example of Ronald Reagan when he was running for governor in the 1960s, talking about radical students on campus and needing to control them. That's continued on and off, but over most of that period, there was still a belief that going to college and getting degree was an essential part of getting into the middle class, to get that better job, to have that opportunity. Even as recently as 2009, we heard President Obama talk about every American needing a post-secondary credential, some sort of degree or training after high school to make themselves more desirable to employers, to make them recession-proof. That's changed as well, but yes, we've certainly-- Politicians have found it convenient to drag higher education into the culture wars in a way that maybe is more prominent now than it was in the past. Definitely.
Kai Wright: I bring it up because it's so-- There's the straightforward economic questions that seem to be driving a lot of people's considerations about higher education now, and then there's all these identity things and cultural things. I was very much raised to believe, and grew up in a world as a Black American of my age growing up in the '80s and '90s, that it wasn't just a matter of what opportunities you would get. It was about social and cultural standing to be educated.
I wonder how much just that part of this conversation is showing up, Maya, for instance, in the students that you encounter. Do you hear that part of the conversation showing up for them at all or does that even matter?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes, hugely [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: I want you both to talk about it. Let's go, Maya, first.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes, hugely. It's primarily the conversations they have with their parents that's the hardest. For so many of our students, their parents; many of them are here so that their young people would go to and through college, and so it's something that weighs on them. Yet, as we sit down with students and their families, I think parents are also realizing the ways in which the current higher education landscape is creating life-altering debt for them and their families.
Depending on the student, I think all of our students carry the burden of what it means to put college on hold to find an alternative pathway, and it's something that I think takes an incredible amount of bravery. We call our fellows trailblazers for this reason. I think what they see and what we're seeing, which is really exciting, is the power of being able to step into careers without that degree and really, once your foot is in the door, how much that degree, in and of itself, is becoming less and less important even in the job search or on the job. Definitely, something our students grapple with.
Kai Wright: Eric, go ahead. You were going to chime in too, just about this tension between economic realities and cultural realities.
Eric Kelderman: Sure. I think what I can say about that is that in 2023, we did a nationwide, nationally representative poll of Americans on their thoughts on higher education. We still find that-- I think we need to make a distinction here. People believe in the economic power of the degree. People who have degrees say it was worth it, even if they were still paying off their debt. Even a large percentage of people who didn't have college degrees said that they would recommend a friend or family member. More than 70% said that they would recommend that a friend or family member get a college degree.
I think what people are grappling with is higher education and whether higher education as an institution is living up to its promises of leveling the playing field economically, of doing a good job of creating a well-informed citizenry, things like that. That's where people are very skeptical still about college.
Kai Wright: Eric, who are-- [crosstalk] Go ahead.
Eric Kelderman: The minority populations that were in our poll were more positive about college than white populations. The enrollment declines we've seen have been greater among white students than among Black and Hispanic students in particular.
Kai Wright: Who are college students, as long as we're talking about data? Culturally, again, we tend to think about young people under the age of 25, usually 18, but is that an accurate depiction of the average college student?
Eric Kelderman: Not entirely. That's still a big chunk, certainly, of undergraduate resident students. Even there, we see that among full-time students, 70% of undergrads are in that traditional sort of 18 to 24, but a healthy chunk, 15%, are over 25. Among the part-time college population, which is 30% or maybe a third of the undergrads, more than 40% of those people are over the age of 25. We have to think about 30% of students are enrolling at two-year colleges right now, and only a little more than half of undergraduates now are white. Only 40% live on campus. About a third are low-income, meaning they're eligible for Pell Grants from the federal government. It's a much broader slice of America than I think many people think of.
Kai Wright: How does that misperception, I guess, of who a college student is impact the conversations we have around it, you think, Eric? What are some of the things that get skewed in our public conversation for people who don't know the data you just ticked off?
Eric Kelderman: Right. Well, we forget about the supports that some of those other students might need, and the kinds of institutions that they're attending. If they're going to less selective public or private colleges, as Maya points out many of her students were selecting, those institutions might not be getting as much support from the state to provide tutoring and counseling for their students, or to have the same amenities that students at the "wealthier" institutions have, the better-resourced institutions have. We forget about veterans and working adults. Something like a quarter of all undergraduate students are parents. Those folks need supports too. I think that's where the conversation doesn't count some of those folks and they get left behind a little bit.
Kai Wright: Yes. Maya, you were nodding along as Eric was describing this. You want to chime in?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: I'm just resonating with how much diversity there is in the college story, and how different it looks depending on at what juncture in life you're engaging with it. I was just resonating with Eric's breakdown of what college has looked like across so many different populations.
Kai Wright: On this question of perceptions, Maya, how do you feel like perceptions of alternatives to college, whether it's trade school, or of programs like yours, or things that are not going to a four-year liberal arts college degree route, how do you think perceptions have changed around that in recent years? As I said, growing up, for me, honestly, that was very much looked down upon. It was seen as something that you did because you couldn't go to college.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Totally. Higher education, just as a monolith and one that has been so degree-centric, is just in such a challenging place right now. I think if you just look at the past several years, which has included so many challenges with FAFSA and the intense amount of debt, questions of ROI, or college closures, and mental health, leadership turnover, et cetera, I think really where we see our-- what's missing from this equation is the student, and what it means that higher education, as it was designed, was supposed to serve as a life-changing experience for young people to learn about themselves and the world while also developing and cultivating a range of skills that would unlock social mobility and economic mobility.
While I think that those perceptions are probably felt, I think the reality of higher education right now, and how much so many students are just desperate to be centered and really want to make sure that this academic experience isn't crippling them either financially or emotionally, there has just been, I think, a wave of empowerment about alternative pathways and how to find alternative pathways to actualize dreams outside of this very, very old monolith and, really, relic. I think while the perceptions are really there, the current state of higher education is pushing our young people to look in alternative directions to find pathways to upward mobility.
Kai Wright: Listeners, you can chime in to this conversation with your own stories and questions about higher ed. How have you or your family changed your thinking about college or higher education over the generations? Are you considering something now that you want to ask a question about or that you have a conundrum around? Let's go to Daniel in Missouri. Daniel, welcome to the show.
Daniel: Hey, Kai. Thanks for taking my call. Yes, I'm calling from Kansas City, Missouri. I come from a family of educators. I have history with college myself and so do my brothers, so this is a really important conversation. I think what your guests were just talking about is super important because for myself, I went to college straight out of high school. I thought that was the only pathway for me because that's what we're taught, that if you're going to be successful, you have to go to college. That didn't turn out to be the case for me.
Well, let me just tell you about my life right now, that I have found a career for myself without a college degree that is successful and rewarding for me in financial operations that a lot of people would say you need a degree to do that, but if you work hard and understand your field, you can also succeed in your field. It's not so much the pipeline that people talk about, that you have to go to college and you have to get this degree and spend tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars to get a degree or go into debt that amount, which is what I was starting to do and which was not going to work out for me. I can't imagine being in that amount of debt right now. That would be horrible. Instead, I worked at a career and have found myself a career without a college degree. I think that's really important for people to hear.
Kai Wright: Can I ask you, Daniel? College didn't work out for you, and I gather that you mentioned to one of our producers that you struggled with how you thought of yourself as a consequence of that. How did you get past that emotional or mental space?
Daniel: Yes, that's a really important part of it too. Like I said, I come from a family of educators. I have three brothers that all have college degrees and very successful careers as well, so me being the lone man out. That was difficult to deal with and seeing myself as lesser than because I don't have that degree. Yet, I-- How to work through that is an individual process. I wouldn't tell anybody how to deal with that because it's a tough thing to get through, but I know that it's possible to get past that and to make your own future and to make your own decisions to continue regardless of what-- Because the college degree seems like a societal thing at this point. That's what I can tell from my colleagues and from my own experience. You don't have to go to get that degree to have a decent career and a decent future for yourself. In fact, a lot of people don't have that degree and become CEOs of companies. I've seen it myself [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: I'm going to leave it there for you, Daniel. Daniel, thank you for that. I really appreciate it. As we're winding down in time on this segment, Eric, reacting to one piece of what Daniel said there in terms of his evolution of finding work, of leaving college and then deciding, okay, well, I'm not going to go-- I don't have to stay in this. I can get on-the-job training. What are the numbers for people like Daniel, either who right now are turning down college altogether, are leaving college in the middle of it? What is the actual rate of-- is there an actual rate of decline?
Eric Kelderman: We have seen a gradual rate of college-going among 18 to 24-year-olds-- I don't have the specific numbers, but it used to be-- I did some reporting in Iowa, and it's declined by, say, 10% or 12% over the past decade. We definitely see more young people going right into the workforce or getting some sort of short-term certificate technical training before they go in. When I talk to folks there, and in some of my own reporting, I found that students are less willing to take the time to figure it out in college. They don't feel like they can afford to do that. They have to have a really direct path to a degree and to a job that's going to help them succeed economically. It's sort of the end of the undecided major.
Kai Wright: The end of the undecided major. Similarly, Maya, how many of the folks that come to you have tried and left college and said, okay, I'm going to go try this route instead?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. A huge part of our student population has tried college for one to two years and ended up with us. Then more recently, excitingly, there's, I'd say, about a 30% of our population that are now considering Marcy Lab School alongside college, so are coming to us straight from high school as a college alternative. Then there are folks in our program who have taken a break from college for two to three years, more skewing at the older range, and are looking for a way to find their way back into an opportunity and find their way into our classrooms.
Kai Wright: I'm Kai Wright. This is Notes from America. We're talking about the shifting dynamics of higher education in the United States and choices people are making about higher ed and in the way it is perceived in our culture and our economy. We're taking your calls. 844-745-8255. Tell us your story and raise your questions about higher education. More of your calls and conversations with our guests just ahead. Stay with us.
This is Notes from America. I'm Kai Wright. We're talking this week about the shifting perceptions and economic realities around higher education. I'm joined by Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio, who is co-founder of The Marcy Lab School in New York City. It's a year-long fellowship designed as an alternative to college for people interested in tech careers. I'm also joined by Eric Kelderman, who is senior writer at The Chronicle for higher Education. We're taking your calls, your own stories and questions about higher ed. Let's go to Robert in Maryland. Robert, welcome to the show.
Robert: Hi. Can you hear me, Kai?
Kai Wright: We can. We can. What did you want to share with us, Robert?
Robert: Oh, okay, great. Great. Okay, so I guess I'll start from a roundabout way. Growing up-- and I'm not going to tell my life story, but growing up [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: We won't have time for your whole life story, Robert, but we would love [crosstalk]--
Robert: Okay, but I just wanted to mention that people that are younger, dealing with hardships, all sorts-- I had a father that had addiction problems. Eventually died. We lost our house.
Kai Wright: I'm sorry.
Robert: That sort of thing sticks with you. I mean, it's an old school story, right? Yes, that was-- started working when I was 16 as a dishwasher, working graveyard shifts overnight on Fridays. Starting out, that was not great. I just wanted to say that outward appearance, tragedy isn't counted for. It's not allotted for enough, I don't think. Maybe in personal statements to some degree, but really, tragedy or hard circumstance-- and you'll find that when you have those, you're in the trenches with those people with a hard circumstance, and it's all sorts of people. It's not just one color, one sex, one appearance. All that said, I fully appreciate the hardship, both systematic and et cetera, so [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: Can I just ask you quickly, Robert? How did that shape your choices for education?
Robert: Well, I was not enthusiastic, ready to go to a great school at a young age. I had to make a comeback. I knew that I liked science just because I could do well on a test if I didn't really try too hard. It was not hard. I was just worried about survival. When you're living with grandparents or whatever your financial situation is, you're moving from place to place, it's not fun, but yes, it did-- and it's a roundabout way. I hear about the trade school option. I recently went back to school. I'm in a PhD program. I've had a good career in the biopharmaceutical industry. I've been at startups and done some of the corporate pharmaceutical world, but I had what they call is a passion play, right? You think of an idea, you follow up on that idea on your own, you make some connections [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: Robert, I apologize, but I'm going to have to move you along because we've got to get to other callers. I gather that through all of this, you have arrived at the idea that despite the fact that you have a ton of debt, you're thinking about going to a trade school. Is that right?
Robert: I had an idea related to insulin, and it could be impactful. There's polyphenolic compounds that you might hear popular nutraceuticals, and I found through molecular docking and through some analytical work that extends the formulation. This could be a long-lasting insulin formulation. I got [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: All right. I'm going to have to wrap it up with you, Robert, but I thank you for that call, and that sounds like an interesting and exciting direction. I hope that this is going to work out for you. Let's go to Stephen in Keller, Texas. Stephen, welcome to the show.
Stephen: Thank you, Kai, and the Marcy team, and Eric, thank you for such a great show. My name is Stephen Keller. I'm from Liberia originally. I came to this country as a refugee. Coming here, I had to work two or three jobs to go to college because for me, I felt like college was the way for me. After I graduated and everything, I found job. I'm already working. I'm still working in my field, but then going back and thinking back in the time, after all the struggle, I was like I wish there was another path. I started doing my own research, and I found that you could have done trade school, you could have gotten scholarships, and I never had any of those ideas.
For me, I became an evangelist to go out to schools and talk to young people about considering their education a business investment. Because when you spend $100,000, $200,000, $300,000, and you graduate and you do not find a job, you end up back either in your parents' home, or you work at odd jobs and you do a lot of hours to get by. It's not healthy for anybody. It's not safe for people. It also affects you mentally because you have spent all this money going to school and you cannot find a job.
One thing I would like to add, again, one of the things that motivated me to go to college was Africans' place a high value on college education. That too was also one of my motivating factor to go to college. Then also to make my mom happy because she never went to school, but she put all of us through college. She put all of us through high school. She always--
Kai Wright: To make mom happy.
Stephen: Yes, she always wanted us to go to school. That's my story. I just wanted to add the support; what they are doing, I think is great. One last thing. I wish every school in the world will consider including vocational education in middle school to high school, so that every child that finishes high school, they can have something to offer society immediately or create their own opportunity. Kai, again, thank you for a great show.
Kai Wright: Thank you for that, Stephen. Thank you so much for that, Stephen. Maya, what about this idea? Every single education ought to include vocational school. What do you think about that and how much of that is happening?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. I think what's most important, regardless of what kind of institution we're folding into middle school and high school, but I think it's really important that every school is really working on teaching durable skills and skills that go beyond theory and step into application. I think about the number of lessons that I've had to learn. What does it look like to write a great email? What does it look like to navigate a meeting with a manager? What does it look like to tell an empowered story when you come from a low-income community, or that you've been through great hurdles in your life?
I think there are just such cool opportunities for all of our schools to get better at thinking about, how will our young people take these lessons and be able to apply them to life, and how will they really be able to support them in unlocking a range of careers and opportunities? Whether that's teaching computer science at an earlier age, whether that's teaching leadership at an earlier age, whether that's reading more empowering texts or centering conversations about identity earlier, I think there's just so much possibility as early as elementary and middle school beyond what traditional education is currently providing for students.
Kai Wright: Yes. We've talked about this a little bit, but we've gotten a couple of text messages. One here's along these lines, "As a Black man, I needed college to get ahead, and I'm noticing that Black kids are told to go to trade school while my white peers are prepping for college." We've gotten a couple things along those lines. You talked about this a little bit earlier, Maya, in terms of just making sure it's about multiple opportunities. Eric, that conversation in the higher ed space in general, that-- This is a racialized conversation, who gets to go to college and who doesn't, and who's encouraged to go to college and who doesn't. I just wonder how you would respond to what that listener texted.
Eric Kelderman: Yes. I think that's a great observation. As I mentioned before, we still do see greater faith in going to college among the minority populations, Hispanic and Black people, and a big decline in confidence in college from white.
Kai Wright: Why do you think that is? What do you attribute that difference to?
Eric Kelderman: Oh, boy. That's [crosstalk]--
Kai Wright: Are there things in your poll that would suggest what the difference [crosstalk]--
Eric Kelderman: Honestly, I don't think I have an answer for that, to be honest. I think part of it is we're becoming a more diverse country. We're going to be a "majority" minority country by 2040 or so. There's been a lot of focus in higher ed until recently on improving the diversity and equity and inclusion on college campuses. That's seen, obviously, a pretty large backlash over the past couple of years, and of course, the Supreme Court's ruling that bars colleges from using race as a factor in admission. I don't know why in particular. I think maybe minority populations still see that there's opportunity in the degree or still believe in the opportunity of the degree and more than other groups. I don't have a great answer for you. I'm sorry.
Kai Wright: I understand. Go ahead, Maya.
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Yes. I think what's just so tragic is just that while that opportunity is there, we see that the graduation rate for Black and brown students graduating from college is, well, I now believe, around 45%. The loan default rate is also paralyzing for these communities. I've just been really grappling with our responsibility and higher education's responsibility, not just to think about what it means for a young person to be accepted into an institution, but what does it mean for our young people to be centered, their stories, their background, what Stephen so beautifully mentioned, what they had gone through in life, so that this experience doesn't become crippling and can continue to be an opportunity that leads them to outcomes. Just adding that view into the conversation as well about the ways that this institution is failing Black students especially, but I think all students at large.
Kai Wright: Yes. Do you know, Maya, of data? I know you've talked about what the outcomes are, both desired and real, for people who go through your program, but in general, do you have an idea of how true is it that there are or are not equivalent opportunities for people who do not get college education today, right? For people who are going to vocational schools or trade schools. Have we seen a shift in the kinds of opportunities, the earning and earning power, whatever it may be, that comes out of that today than in the past?
Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio: Absolutely. Absolutely. I'll always be forever moved about the story of our founding fellows, our nine fellows who didn't have college degrees, who walked into careers earning an average salary of $103,000 a year as software engineers for some of the most important companies in the world. What I'll say is that I think that the conversation is changing, but even our team, and the companies who are really, really devoted to nontraditional talent and hiring folks from nontraditional pathway are as trailblazing as the young people who are looking for those nontraditional pathways.
Then just like all systems change, it takes time, and I think we're at the very, very beginning of it. I'm so excited to see what is possible when more and more companies open up to the idea that young folks with alternative paths and with different backgrounds and experiences can add value in powerful, powerful ways to their organizations. I think the tech sector is a really exciting place to learn from, when you think about how many incredible opportunities for young folks to be able to build the applications that our world is using. I think there's a lot of hope, but it also will take a lot of fight and a lot of commitment from companies and organizations to want to be able to hire and support folks with nontraditional pathways.
Kai Wright: Let's go to Victoria in Houston, Texas. Victoria, welcome to the show.
Victoria: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I'm from the demographic of, I tried college, it didn't work, I had to enter the workforce. Now that I've built a kind of steady foundation for my career, I'm now refloating the idea of maybe going back to a community college, getting a certificate, moving more into supply chain and logistics. Previously, I had tried engineering. Yes, I come from a family of first college graduates, and so it was heavily-- and they graduated in the '90s and early 2000s, and so it was very deemed esteemed. I will say that I wish that there was, more in the high school and middle school, teaching you how to compose an email to management, and these things that you just learn as you go and you just get your foot in the door. Because that has been beneficial to me without having a college degree.
Kai Wright: Right, right. Thank you for that, Victoria. How much of-- and we're running down on time here, but, Eric, I did want to ask you about all of the controversies in higher education and how much that is playing into the conversation. You wrote a piece a few weeks ago about the number of university presidents who are women who have been stepping down and leaving left and right. How much is the way that higher education keeps showing up in the news in a bad way affecting things? We got about a minute here for this.
Eric Kelderman: Yes. I think that the controversies that we think of are actually largely limited to really brand-name schools. This is part of the problem of the way the media in general covers higher education, which is to focus on big, internationally known institutions like the Ivy League institutions. I do think that the turnover in college presidents, the women college presidents in the Ivies is indicative of a larger trend where only 30% of all higher ed leaders are women.
I think when you look overall nationally, the protests were actually quite limited in terms of the number of institutions where they took place or where they went awry. Mostly at places where you had a large number of very highly personally empowered students from wealthy backgrounds who feel free to speak out and take actions like that. You didn't see things like that at community colleges or public regional institutions where they don't get as much media coverage. I think scandals, unfortunately, make their way into the news in ways that are not representative of colleges and college students in general.
Kai Wright: We will have to leave it there. Eric Kelderman is the senior writer for The Chronicle of Higher Education. Maya Bhattacharjee-Marcantonio is co-founder of The Marcy Lab in New York City. It's a year-long fellowship program designed to be an alternative to college for people interested in tech careers. Thanks to both of you.
Notes from America is a production of WNYC Studios. Follow us wherever you get podcasts and on Instagram @noteswithkai. This episode was produced by Siona Peterous. Theme music and sound design by Jared Paul. Matthew Mirando is our live engineer. Our team also includes Katerina Barton, Regina de Heer, Karen Frillmann, Suzanne Gaber, and Lindsay Foster Thomas. I'm Kai Wright. Thanks so much for spending time with us.
Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.
New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.