Janae Pierre: Welcome to NYC NOW, your source for local news in and around New York City. From WNYC, I'm Janae Pierre. Happy Saturday. The New York Knicks' playoff run came to a heartbreaking end with a loss to the Indiana Pacers in six games. It was their first trip to the Eastern Conference Finals in 25 years and represented a huge step forward for the franchise, yet just a few days later, the Knicks fired head coach Tom Thibodeau.

The move shocked some fans, but not everyone in the league was surprised. Now the search is on for the next head coach, and that coach will have to address some big lingering questions. Is this team built to go the distance, and how much closer are they really to a title? Steve Popper covers the Knicks for Newsday. Steve, how's it going?

Steve Popper: Tiring. Exhausting, and when you say some people are not shocked by it, I think any of your listeners who are longtime fans are like, "Ah, this is the Knicks that I know.

Janae Pierre: Right on. Listen, I want to start there, actually. Where were you when you got the news about Tom Thibodeau?

Steve Popper: If I tell you mowing my lawn, was that ambitious enough?

Janae Pierre: That's great.

Steve Popper: I've heard, and we've all heard these rumors that Tom had been in trouble for a long time, and I heard it during the Detroit Series, and then I heard it during the Boston Series. Even when they were ahead two games to one, I had heard rumors that people in the Front Office were talking at that point about firing him. The belief was, if you beat the defending champs and got further than the team had gotten in a quarter century, that you were safe, at least till the night of the first losing streak next season, but that proved not to be true, and my lawn is still not completely mowed.

Janae Pierre: [laughs] Truly, that is the headline, or was the headline all week. The Knicks made the Conference Finals and still fired their coach, but the big question is, why now?

Steve Popper: There's been some stories that have come out that I kind of am skeptical of only because I've heard these rumors for a long time now. I don't think it was the player meetings that put the nail in the coffin for Tom. I think it was this is something that there were certain voices in the Front Office just didn't like the way he conducted himself. He's very much of a stubborn, wants to run the whole show kind of guy. I think there were voices in Jim Dolan's ear that were critical of him all along, and they were looking for a way to pull the trigger, and this was it.

Janae Pierre: Yes. I do wonder the reaction inside the locker room, though. From what you've heard, how did the players take the news?

Steve Popper: We haven't heard from them. I asked Jalen the question at the final press conference when they lost in Game 6 in Indiana, and he expressed great admiration and belief in Tom, and he should. This is someone they've had a relationship since Jalen was a little kid, with his father playing, and Tom as an assistant coach in New York. Then, when Tom was in Chicago, he brought Rick in, Jalen's dad, and Jalen was a star in the Chicago high school system at that time.

They've had a relationship for so long. To me, now you've got to make sure that whoever you bring in is tied to Jalen because that's the way the franchise has been set up, and the one intriguing name is Jason Kidd, who coached him in Dallas, and they have a good relationship. To me, if you're not going that way, I think you're really taking a risk.

Janae Pierre: Yes. In previous interviews, Steve, you and I have talked about how big the Front Office had gone, heading into last season. The five first round picks for Mikal Bridges, the trade for KAT. Do you think those investments paid off or did they give up too much too soon?

Steve Popper: Look, the results are that you went further than you went the year before, and maybe I'm too patient, but I was a believer that the first year wasn't going to be as good as the second year. I think if you kept the pieces in place, maybe worked a little bit around the fringes of the bench and kept Thibodeau's system in place, I think they would have been better next season.

This blows it up, and now you're going to have some changes, and there's rumors of making moves with the roster, too. It's funny because the Front Office ownership don't speak very often, but James Dolan went on Jalen Brunson's podcast and expressed a belief that it was a lesson learned, that you can't reach for the shiny objects, and you have to have patience and build a system and have stability, and that lasted-- I think that interview was in March, and we are now in June, and that whole belief system has gone out the window.

Janae Pierre: Yes, but with all of that in mind and everything we've talked about so far, the Knicks did make it farther than they've gone in decades, but they lost to the same team two years in a row. Was this a successful season for the Knicks?

Steve Popper: I think so. Look, 51 wins in the regular season, beating the defending champions in the second round, getting to Game 6 of the Conference Finals. 1 team holds the trophy at the end, and 29 other teams are disappointed, and they're not the only ones that are successful and have successful coaches that are in strange circumstances. The Denver Nuggets fired Mike Malone, who led them to a championship two years ago, with three games left in the season.

This is sort of what these guys sign up for. They know if fingers start pointing, that's the easiest place to blame, and that's sort of what happens. To me, I think it's a successful season, and more important than that, probably, it's a successful five-year run. They really turned around the reputation of this team, and now the goal is, how do you advance from that and keep that in place where it's a place where players want to play and they want to be a part of it and join in on this?

Janae Pierre: Yes. Speaking of players wanting to come here, what are the chances of the Knicks landing a big star in the offseason?

Steve Popper: I didn't think there was a great chance of it if you didn't make the coaching change. Now I just don't know because we don't know who the coach is going to be, what kind of system they want to run, and how dissatisfied the Front Office and ownership is with falling short like they did. You've got to decide, whatever you gave up to get Mikal Bridges to sign OG Anunoby, to get Karl-Anthony Towns, do you believe after a year that they're the pieces that are going to bring you to that level you want to be at?

If not, when you're talking about guys like Giannis Antetokounmpo is available out there, there's a belief that maybe they are all in now and looking. They're going to investigate these at least and see if they have a match. It's very difficult with the salary cap, but I think they will be interested in these star players that are out there.

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Janae Pierre: Stay close. There's more after the break.

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Janae Pierre: All right, Steve, we want to try something a little different. We have a few Knicks fans here at WNYC, and they've been following this team really closely all season, and it's been really interesting to just go for a cup of coffee and end up talking about the Knicks for 10 minutes or so. Anyway, we asked them what they'd want to know and had them send their questions in, and first up is Ivan Rodriguez. He's our senior manager of recruitment, and he's thinking big picture about what it really takes to build a winning culture, beyond just what happens on the court.

Ivan Rodriguez: There's a lot that goes into winning a championship. It isn't just the coach. It isn't the players. It's the Front Office. It's the folks that kind of push the organization forward to create the environment, the culture for a team to win a championship. What else, aside from the firing of Tom Thibodeau, has to happen in order for the Knicks to build a championship-winning culture?

Steve Popper: Well, I think he's right, and it starts at the very top at ownership. As I said earlier, to me, it was very interesting that James Dolan had a very hands-off, letting Leon Rose, who is very well respected a long time as an agent before he came here at the Knicks as team president, letting him run this, and it really changed the image. When Phil Jackson was in New York as the team president, there were whispers throughout the league with agents, with players that New York was not a place you wanted to come.

That has changed, and I think we're going to find out now how much of that was Thibodeau, Jalen Brunson, the on-court product, and how much are people going to be deterred by what they see here, that ownership or Front Office voices sort of won the day here and pushed out a very successful coach? I think it remains to be seen how this is going to play out.

Janae Pierre: Next is Rajath Vikram. He's editor of our magazine shows and newscasts.

Rajath Vikram: The Knicks are in a very different place than when they first brought in Thibs. So what's the organization looking for in a new coach?

Steve Popper: Well, the only thing I've heard is that there's a leaning in most corners of the organization for someone who has done it before, and I think that makes sense because where you are right now, you're not a building project now. You're a team that is, by firing this coach, you've shown that you believe that they're a championship contender, that you felt that getting to the Conference Finals was falling short for this organization.

I think that means they want someone who can come in right away, and there's not a learning curve. That takes out some of the assistants, the college coaches who've never coached at this level. Although I do hear some whispers that there is a belief in Johnnie Bryant, associate head coach in Cleveland. He's never been a head coach at any level. I think there are some voices in the Knicks Front Office that like him and would like to go after him, but I think the more likely thing is a coach like Jason Kidd, who's been in NBA Finals, who has a long playing history and not to mention, has a good relationship with Giannis Antetokounmpo, who he coached in Milwaukee.

Janae Pierre: Then there's Christian Santana. He's a copy editor here in the WNYC Newsroom.

Christian Santana: What's the deal with Rick Brunson and his role on the team?

Janae Pierre: He's asking about the influence Rick Brunson holds inside the organization. Rick Brunson is Jalen Brunson's father, and reportedly, some players have been frustrated with how much say he has in team decisions. What's his role, going forward?

Steve Popper: Yes, that remains to be seen, and look, when you clear out the head coach, Rick Brunson is a very loyal Tom Thibodeau follower. He was out of the league, and Tom brought him back in here to New York. I don't think it was overstepping his boundaries. I think he was sort of a conduit between Thibodeau, who could almost hit a mindfulness where you couldn't talk to him during the game, and Rick was sort of that buffer there.

I just don't buy some of this. Obviously, if there's a player who feels Jalen shoots 25 times a game, and "I'm not getting the shots," I think there's going to be some resentment with Rick being a powerful voice in the organization. That's something that the next coach is going to have to navigate. I do know Jalen liked having his father here. His father is the guy who trained him before every game. They'd talk about the game, but he's played and been successful without Rick on the bench. I don't think that's sort of an end-all to this.

Janae Pierre: Okay, this last one is a bit of a curveball. This one's from Emily Botin. She's vice president of WNYC Studios. Now, Emily's less interested in the roster and more curious about you, Steve, and your path.

Emily Botin: What questions do you have that never get answered when you're doing a job? I really have so many more questions. I'm always curious, like "Did you want to cover basketball? How did you get the beat, and did you love basketball before the beat?"

Steve Popper: Well, I would say this, with Thibodeau, and despite me defending him as a coach, none of my questions were ever answered to my satisfaction with Tom Thibodeau. [laughter] Every question you ask him, "Is this guy available to play?" "Could be." "Is this guy going to start tonight?" "Could. I've been considering it. We consider everything." He held his cards very close to the vest

Honestly, I went like so many people, was a journalism student, and did work in different departments of a newspaper when I was an intern. What I decided was sports writing is something that interested me once I saw I wasn't advancing to where I was going to be playing these sports. Look, I admire everyone who has to do hard news, and the difficulties there are there, but I didn't want to be knocking on the door of someone whose child was in a car accident.

I wanted the-- What we joke around is the playground of the newspaper. It brings a lot of fun and joy to people. Yes, I've loved doing it for a long time, and it's not as easy as people think. We're not doing hot dogs and beers at the game. We're there for hours before and hours after, and the travel is a nightmare, but it's on the whole been good, and you're in a lot of interesting events that people would love to be at, and we're kind of there on the ground of it, so it's a lot of fun.

Janae Pierre: That's Newsday Nick's beat reporter, Steve Popper. Thanks so much, Steve.

Steve Popper: Anytime. Glad we could do it.

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Janae Pierre: Thank you for listening to NYC NOW. See you Monday.

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