Title: New Work Rules Could Push Thousands of New Yorkers Off Food Assistance

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Janae Pierre: Welcome to NYC Now. I'm Janae Pierre. New York City's SNAP recipients, people who rely on food assistance, must comply with new work requirements in order to keep their benefits. On today's episode, we look into those new rules and who's impacted, but first, here's what's happening in New York City.

Commissioner Jessica Tisch: I can confirm this morning that this is being investigated as an act of ISIS-inspired terrorism.

Janae Pierre: NYPD Commissioner Jessica Tisch says officials are investigating an incident where two men allegedly sought to detonate homemade explosives during a protest near Gracie Mansion as an act of terrorism. Officials are identifying the two men as Amir Bilat and Ibrahim Qayyumi, both from Pennsylvania. Mayor Zohran Mamdani says the men accused of using the improvised explosives, which did not detonate, sought to cause chaos.

Mayor Zohran Mamdani: Many of the counterprotesters met this display of bigotry peacefully, with a vision of a city that is welcoming to all, but a few did not. Two men traveled from Pennsylvania and attempted to bring violence to New York City.

Janae Pierre: The incident occurred on Saturday during an anti-Muslim protest near the mayor's residence, organized by January 6th rioter and far-right activist Jake Lang. It attracted dozens of counterprotesters. Officials say the two men are being federally prosecuted.

Meanwhile, Governor Kathy Hochul says she's increasing the presence of state police at what she calls sensitive sites across New York. She says this is in response to the ongoing war in Iran and this weekend's incident near Gracie Mansion. Hochul says the state is supporting the NYPD's probe into the event as part of the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force.

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Janae Pierre: It's feeling a lot like spring, isn't it? New York City's parks and playgrounds are full of people out enjoying the sunshine and spring temperatures. Johnny O'Leary, known as Johnny Chess, is a longtime fixture of the chess scene at Washington Square Park. He says he's starting his outdoor season earlier than usual this year.

Johnny O'Leary: Man, I'll tell you, I'm so full of gratitude for this weather being the way it is. I didn't expect to be outdoors engaging in something that nourishes my soul on a daily basis.

Janae Pierre: Temperatures are expected to drop back down to the 30s next week.

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Janae Pierre: Coming up, under new federal rules, people who receive food assistance must prove that they're working in order to keep their benefits. More on that after the break.

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Janae Pierre: Welcome back. Here in New York City, about 1.8 million residents rely on food assistance known as SNAP to help pay for groceries. There are some new rules that will impact tens of thousands of these residents. Under changes tied to President Trump's spending and tax package bill, some adults will now have to document that they're working, volunteering, or enrolled in school to stay on SNAP. If they fail to meet those requirements for three months, they could lose benefits. That means thousands of New Yorkers could be pushed off the program by the summer if they don't meet the new standards. Here to break it all down is WNYC's Karen Yi. Hey, Karen.

Karen Yi: Hey, Janae.

Janae Pierre: We've been talking about these changes to SNAP benefits for some months now, even before people lost their benefits during the past holiday season late last year. What are the rules as of today?

Karen Yi: We've been warning that this is to come for several months. I think that's why it's been confusing because you have had states and food policy advocates try to fight these changes and try to delay the changes in court. Then you had this massive, unprecedented government shutdown that paused benefits for people during November. Now the changes are here. They're actually in effect for New York State.

In March, SNAP recipients in New York State have to start documenting that they're either working, volunteering, or in school consistently every month. Now, if they miss three months, that means they're going to lose their benefits. New York has long been exempt from these work rules, but that exemption is now expired. The other change that's happening is that new groups of people have to meet these rules. All said, the city estimates that's about 123,000 New Yorkers.

Now, what's confusing here is New Jersey is under a different timeline. Work rules in New Jersey for most counties actually took effect last month. Their three-month clock started already, and so they'll have until May to meet the rules or start losing benefits.

Janae Pierre: How are the feds keeping up with these requirements? I'm thinking of people who file unemployment. They go into the system, they say, "Hey, I applied for this job, but it didn't work out." In the case of SNAP, how do they keep up with these requirements?

Karen Yi: SNAP is a national program, and it was the Trump administration and congressional Republicans that pushed forward these changes. These programs are administered by states, which then transfer the bureaucratic paperwork to cities. It's going to be up to, for New Yorkers, New York City to now have to process an enormous amount of paperwork if you are having to meet these benefits and stay on top of everyone who's not meeting the requirements every month, to say, "Hey, you need to submit your pay stub, hey, you need to submit a letter of employment." That work is going to fall down to the city's Human Resources Administration Department, HRA.

Janae Pierre: Some pressure on a state agency there.

Karen Yi: Absolutely. A state agency that historically has had issues processing SNAP applications. There was, a couple years ago, just incredible delays in people waiting to get their benefits. Now you have the same agency and a workforce now having to do this additional task with very, very high stakes.

Janae Pierre: Who's affected by these new standards?

Karen Yi: This applies to people 18 to age 64 now, veterans, homeless people, youth aging out of foster care, and parents with kids older than 14. These are all groups that weren't subject to the rules before. Now they are subject to the rules. Before, the work requirements only applied to people up to 54, and then now that's increasing until you turn 65 years old.

Janae Pierre: Wow.

Karen Yi: This means that maybe you were receiving SNAP for a long time and you stopped working or you retired, you might have to come out of retirement if you want to keep getting those benefits, say, if you're 62, 63. Sister Marie Sorenson is the assistant director at St. John's Bread & Life, and she says that's why her biggest concern is seniors.

Sister Marie Sorenson: Not only will families be affected by this, but seniors. This is a big issue. Moving that age range, that's causing a lot of panic, especially with people who are dealing with health issues or mobility issues or-

Karen Yi: Fixed incomes.

Sister Marie Sorenson: Fixed incomes. This is very big for our seniors.

Karen Yi: What are the seniors telling you? Maybe they've already stopped working, having to go back into the job market now.

Sister Marie Sorenson: It's a source of confusion for them, because they're saying, "I'm past the age of retirement now. I'm a senior citizen, and I don't have the capacities that I used to have as a younger person."

Janae Pierre: Oh, man. I can't help but think about this older guy I always talk to at my neighborhood bodega. I've seen him pay with his SNAP card, and I'm wondering how he's impacted by this.

Karen Yi: Or if he even knows.

Janae Pierre: Right. That too.

Karen Yi: I think the city has tried to communicate to people that this is coming, but it's a lot to process. Even just explaining the categories of people that now have to meet work requirements, even explaining the requirements themselves, it's confusing. Maybe if you're not digitally connected and you're not so chronically online because you're a little bit older, you might not know the intricacies and the back-and-forth court battles that we've been following here.

Janae Pierre: You talked with Sister Caroline Tweedy as well, right?

Karen Yi: Yes. Sister Caroline Tweedy, she's the executive director at St. John's Bread & Life, and she adds in another wrinkle. She says that many of these seniors are also caretakers.

Sister Caroline Tweedy: We have a lot of older folks that are raising children, children's children, so they're raising their grandchildren or their great-grandchildren. They didn't think of that two or three years ago because they were somewhat secure. Now they're looking at, what do I do when or if? Suppose they don't have meals in schools, how do I feed our kids? That becomes an issue for them as well. It's an added responsibility.

Janae Pierre: I'm sure these older adults, they never even imagined being a guardian at this age.

Karen Yi: Right. People are having kids older, and so that means the grandparents are also older. I think there's a lot of differences in everyone's family structure and family struggles, and this is something that I don't think anyone expected. You're a senior, you're taking care of a young child, and maybe you're receiving SNAP, and now you have to figure out what to do because child care is so unaffordable. How do you balance having to maybe go back to work or volunteer while you're caretaking?

Janae Pierre: For older folks who are taking on that extra responsibility, I don't know, something in me thinks that they should be exempt from these new rules.

Karen Yi: Right. There are categories of people that are exempt. If you have some sort of medical condition, if you have a disability, you can fill out an exemption form, but again, more paperwork. You have to prove that you are exempt from these rules. Absolutely, there are people who may be able to, even if they fall within the age range, not have to meet these requirements.

Janae Pierre: It just all seems so unnecessary, these new standards.

Karen Yi: Yes, that's what Sister Marie said. She called the whole thing really kind of cruel.

Janae Pierre: How are SNAP recipients responding to all of this?

Karen Yi: I went to the pantry that Sister Marie runs in Bed-Stuy, St. John's Bread & Life, to see whether people even knew that the rules were coming and how they felt about them. You might be surprised that a lot of folks I spoke to actually supported the concept of work requirements.

Kasuneike Burnett: I've got two good legs, arms, eyes, and I'm good, so I can go out there and do it.

Karen Yi: That's Kasuneike Burnett, who is 56 years old. She stopped working last fall as a chef, and she told me that she's not worried about meeting new rules, that she thinks it'll get her out of the house, she wants to give back to her community.

Kasuneike Burnett: It gets people out there, it gets them motivated to do something that's different in their life.

Karen Yi: Are you working right now?

Kasuneike Burnett: No, I was working part-time, so now it's stopped. I was a chef. Now it's really slow, so I haven't worked since December of last year.

Karen Yi: Are you worried about how you're going to be able to meet the rules?

Kasuneike Burnett: I'm not worried, because I follow the rules, because I need help, so I'm going to go and do what I got to do.

Karen Yi: What does that mean? What are you going to do?

Kasuneike Burnett: I'm going to go out there and work and hope I can find me another job.

Janae Pierre: Kasuneike seems a bit optimistic despite being out of work since December. Honestly, Karen, to be fair here, she's 56. She's not a senior citizen. Did you talk to any older folks?

Karen Yi: Yes, I spoke to William Singletary.

William Singletary: You could call me Bill because I'm just a Bill on Capitol Hill. [laughs]

Karen Yi: He just turned 65, so he just aged out of these requirements. He also told me that he agrees that people who are able to work should work.

William Singletary: I think it's great, because some people are just taking advantage, and they're not doing anything. Then you got those people out there selling their SNAP and stuff like that, and that's not fair to the people that really need it, you know what I mean?

Karen Yi: Do you think it could be maybe hard for some people who are a little bit older and now suddenly have to work or volunteer?

William Singletary: Yes, especially senior citizens. They worked all their life. I think they should lay back. They're in their golden years. Come on, there's a lot of young people out here that's getting SNAP that's not working. I don't think it's fair to the senior citizens.

Janae Pierre: Man, William and Kasuneike both have some really interesting responses so far.

Karen Yi: Yes. I also spoke to another William, William Marrero, who is 48 and volunteers at the pantry. He also finds the idea fair and principled.

William Marrero: I think it's appropriate at this point in time for each and every one to contribute to deserve. I find it fair, give and take.

Karen Yi: William is also unemployed, but he volunteers at the pantry, and that should be enough to satisfy the requirements, because you can also do in-kind work or volunteer work or be in school.

Janae Pierre: Is that part-time or full-time work?

Karen Yi: Here's where I'm going to make you do more math.

Janae Pierre: Oh, gosh.

Karen Yi: The requirement is it's 80 hours of work a month, but for volunteer, and I'm just going to read verbatim from what state officials have told me so you can get a sense of just the confusing scope of these requirements. To meet the volunteer requirement, it is the number of hours per month equal to the household SNAP benefit divided by the state minimum wage.

Janae Pierre: Wait.

Karen Yi: You want me to read that again?

Janae Pierre: Wait, can we have an example?

Karen Yi: Maybe, but I think that is the concern, just how incredibly confusing these requirements will be. Even though 67% of SNAP recipients are working, a lot of people are volunteering. You could see William and the other William, they're both volunteers at the pantry. It's just a matter of filling out the right paperwork and doing the math to make sure that you can prove-- This is more about proving that you're working in order to keep your benefit.

Janae Pierre: This is so confusing.

Karen Yi: It is. It's confusing, and then I think you also have some people that are dealing with medical issues. Is it enough of a medical issue to get you exempt from the rules? Marrero says he's dealing with arthritis and a hernia, but he's optimistic he'd get an exemption if he needs one. How do you feel about having to submit more paperwork, trying to get an exemption, or trying to prove--

William Marrero: It's all right. It's all right. It's part of life. You do things, you either approve or you disapprove, so you got to get it done.

Janae Pierre: Very interesting. Karen, it seems like most of the people you spoke with were actually okay with the policy.

Karen Yi: Yes, but I will say not everyone felt that way. I met Yvette Arrindell. She's 54 years old. She told me she didn't even know about the new work rules until I mentioned them to her. You did not know about these work rules?

Yvette Arrindell: No, I did not. I'm just hearing this from you, and it's sad. You're hurting people, people you're not even seeing because you live in a whole different world than where we live in.

Karen Yi: Her concern is a little bit more big picture. She's worried about what's going to happen to her community, her neighbors, when people start to lose benefits.

Yvette Arrindell: Able-bodied don't mean an able mind. You don't do that. You don't use force to force people to do things. You have to work with them. Please, I'm begging whoever's in charge, rethink this, reinvestigate, because there's people who's going to suffer, and there's people who's going to lead to crime. They could have been a good person all their life. Not one inch of entrance with police. Now survival is taking over, and this is what the people are going to think about. Survival is not even going to be the drug, and want to get this hat and get-- It's going to be, I need to eat. I need water to drink. That's what it's going to be.

Janae Pierre: Yvette's making a lot of points there. Also, able-bodied doesn't mean abled-minded. That's so true.

Karen Yi: Yes. It was interesting, even people who agreed with the work rules and concept, they were very worried about the seniors. It's just very stressful having to do this math to see what are the minimum hours of volunteer work that you need, or to find out where to volunteer, trying to get yourself there to volunteer once you have your routine, or like we mentioned, maybe you're taking care of a child. The other thing is, maybe you don't even know that this is coming. A few people I spoke to online waiting for the food pantry said they didn't know until I told them.

Janae Pierre: That's not surprising to me at all, honestly. We as journalists, we are always often in the know about things like this. You're doing a service, letting people know.

Karen Yi: Right. I think for some people who are newly applying to SNAP, SNAP has been exempt from work requirements for as long as I can remember, so they may not know that these changes are coming.

Janae Pierre: Were they not notified?

Karen Yi: The city has told me that they are notifying everyone who meets these requirements. They're sending letters to people and they're going to be in touch with people as they don't meet the requirements, but stuff gets lost in the mail. Maybe you don't pay attention. Maybe you don't understand what you're being told in the letter. Here, we are having a very long conversation just explaining the benefits. It can be difficult to process. Hi. Are any of you guys on SNAP by any chance?

Conrad Ritchie: Not yet.

Karen Yi: Not yet? Are you trying to be?

Conrad Ritchie: Yes.

Karen Yi: Oh, do you know about the new work rules?

Conrad Ritchie: No.

Karen Yi: I'm doing a story.

Conrad Ritchie: I'm looking for a job too, sure.

Karen Yi: Oh, okay. Yes, yes, yes. I met Conrad Ritchie and he didn't know about the rules either because he's still trying to get SNAP. What do you make of these new work rules?

Conrad Ritchie: I really don't know what they are. You just told me, but I know in order to have Medicaid, if you're on Medicaid, you have to show some kind of attempt to be getting a job as well. Not just food stamps, not just SNAP benefits, but also cash assistance. Right now, I'm about to be evicted, so I don't want to end up homeless. I got to try my best to see what I can do here. All I'm using is the resources they have, social workers, whoever they are.

Janae Pierre: We've heard from some really interesting folks, some New Yorkers that are really dealing with the pressures of life in this city and affordability. It seems like they really need these benefits.

Karen Yi: Right. I think if you think about what SNAP is for, it's really money to spend at the grocery store. It is money to feed your family, and so I think for people who are struggling, we see the rising cost of childcare. We see the rising cost of rent. We see the rising cost of everything in your community. SNAP has always been this lifeline to help you maybe use money that you would use on food for something else. If that piece of your budget puzzle is now being taken away, that adds more pressure to figure out, "How do I make that gap up?"

You can see in all of these stories how varied the cases are. Some people are dealing with a medical issue. Some people are dealing with temporary unemployment. Some people are not able to be as mobile as they used to. Some people are trying to get SNAP for the first time. Even for people who are working, like I said, a lot of SNAP recipients are working, a lot of SNAP recipients are families, but they just don't make enough.

Janae Pierre: All right. We know there are age-related work requirements, 18 to 64, and some folks might qualify for exemptions if they fill out the paperwork, and they'll be able to keep their benefits. What happens to people who don't comply with these new rules?

Karen Yi: I spoke to Scott French from the city's Human Resources Administration, that's the agency that oversees SNAP, to ask how they're going to handle that.

Scott French: We're going to be sending individuals specific notices, letting them know we have, based on our tracking, the prior month you did not comply, this is your first month for noncompliance. Please make sure that you contact us or connect with us so we can get you connected to services and support so you can meet the monthly requirements.

Karen Yi: He says people can miss up to three months of not complying with the rules until they get kicked off. You're essentially limited to three months of benefits within the three-year period before you get kicked off. I want to make you do a little bit more math here. It's not like the three-year period begins in March. We're already on a three-year period that I believe ends next year. You will be kicked off until next year when the new three-year period for the state begins again, where you'll then have another three months to prove eligibility. If not, then lose benefits for the next three-year period.

Janae Pierre: Okay. What have city officials been doing to prepare for these changes?

Karen Yi: The city says it's reaching out to everyone affected and letting them know what's to come. They did launch a new partnership with more than 70 nonprofits to essentially identify a pool of work or volunteer opportunities that can help SNAP recipients meet the requirements. Maybe they can get referred to an open position or a volunteer opportunity, maybe in their neighborhood, maybe with a nonprofit partner that they're already working with.

The city has this enormous task of now processing all of this new paperwork and making sure people don't fall through the cracks. We've heard complaints about SNAP delays, about people losing their SNAP already, and now you're adding this additional layer of bureaucracy, but the city told me that they're going to be in touch with every person every month.

If they don't meet the rules, they're really going to try to get them in compliance because the stakes are really high here. People can lose benefits, which is essentially money to eat. Advocates say the state of New York hasn't had to follow work requirements for a long time, so even the city workers and the advocates that are helping people meet these requirements, they haven't had to do this in a long time. It's just going to be a very big learning curve for everybody.

Janae Pierre: Yes, for sure. That's WNYC's Karen Yi. Karen, maybe we follow up with you in the summer and talk about folks who may have been kicked off of their benefits.

Karen Yi: Yes, absolutely. We'll be staying on it.

Janae Pierre: Thanks for joining us.

Karen Yi: Thank you.

Janae Pierre: Thank you for listening to NYC Now. I'm Janae Pierre. See you next time.

 

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