Janae Pierre: We're rolling, and I just want to make a toast to the State of New York, the MTA, and all who have just hit the one year anniversary of congestion pricing. Cheers.

Stephen Nessen: Cheers.

Janae Pierre: Happy one year anniversary. Everyone, pass me $9 if you see me. Anytime you pass by me, give me $9.

Stephen Nessen: So you can drive into Manhattan?

Janae Pierre: No, so I can drive up my savings account. What are you talking about?

[laughter]

Janae Pierre: From WNYC, this is NYC NOW, where we look beyond the news headlines and into the why. I'm Janae Pierre. A year ago, congestion pricing landed in New York and set off a political and cultural firestorm. The program charges drivers $9 to enter Manhattan south of 60th street, with the goal of reducing traffic and funding public transit. When this first came out, drivers were angry, lawsuits were even filed, and some elected officials warned the tolls would be disastrous for the city.

For months, the tolls dominated conversations about life in New York City, even drawing ire from President Trump, who said congestion pricing would hurt the city's economy, but a year later, Manhattan, it's still standing. The bridges didn't crumble, and I can confirm that civilization has not collapsed, but some people are paying a lot of money. Still and all, congestion pricing is still here, guys. Today, we're looking back at what it's actually been like to live with it for a year.

To walk us through how it played out in New York, we're joined by WNYC's transportation reporter, Stephen Nessen. Stephen reviewed data from a variety of sources, including the MTA's 108-page report recapping the first year. What's up, Stephen?

Stephen Nessen: Hello, Janae.

Janae Pierre: I can't believe it's been a year since the new tolls have been in place. What's it been like?

Stephen Nessen: Well, you probably remember when this first launched right outside of our building on Varick Street. For me, that's where it hit the hardest, because prior to congestion pricing, it would even start maybe like two o'clock in the afternoon sometimes, especially Thursday, Friday, even Wednesday. The cars would start to back up. The honking would begin. It was like clockwork. You could just be like, oh, yep, it's two o'clock.

That's when the cars start to back up. The honking starts. The shouting. You know those traffic guards out front who are just screaming their lungs out like, "Back up, back up."

Janae Pierre: Or back the f-- [laughs]

Stephen Nessen: Yes, no, the cursing is crazy.

Janae Pierre: Seriously. Yes.

Stephen Nessen: Plenty of it. Plenty of it from drivers and the traffic agents. As soon as congestion pricing hit, it was like a switch was flipped, and the traffic disappeared. It was like that movie Vanilla Sky where you look around and the streets are empty. It was almost like the pandemic even, where it's like suddenly, all the cars are gone.

Janae Pierre: Yes, it was kind of quiet.

Stephen Nessen: That's what it was like. At least all of January was like that. February was like that. Then, later, as the months crept on, we got a little bit used to it, and the cars started to come back. It doesn't seem quite as dramatic anymore as those first couple of months, but we're getting stats right now that show, as a matter of fact, traffic really dropped dramatically. Something like 27 million fewer vehicles entered Manhattan last year-

Janae Pierre: Wow.

Stephen Nessen: - as a result of congestion pricing.

Janae Pierre: That's crazy numbers, right? Let's be honest though, Stephen, congestion pricing isn't something that's unique only to New York City. This is happening in other cities and other countries, right?

Stephen Nessen: Actually, I should say, congestion pricing did come from New York.

Janae Pierre: What?

Stephen Nessen: The person that came up with it was a Columbia University professor who won a Nobel Prize way back when.

Janae Pierre: Word.

Stephen Nessen: That said, Singapore really kicked things off in the late '70s with congestion pricing. It was obviously much more primitive. Now they use E-ZPass and digital technology does all the stuff. Other cities around the world followed suit. Sweden really was a big example for us to follow. Before New York launched congestion pricing, I was looking at what was going on in Sweden, how did it go there, and it was super interesting. Just like New York, everybody was against congestion pricing. Three quarters of the population are like, "Doomsday. We can never have this. It'll cripple us. It'll destroy the city. Stockholm can't handle it."

The government was maybe slightly less heavy-handed than New York, who was just like, "Congestion pricing, it's here, deal with it." They made it a referendum, they allowed people to vote on it, but they were like, well, let's try it first. Two-thirds of the public were against it. Then, they're like, "All right, we'll do a trial period, three months, see how you like it, and then you vote on it." Of course, just like New York, the traffic dropped dramatically. People could walk around more freely. They held a vote, and sure enough, two-thirds of the public voted to keep congestion pricing.

Janae Pierre: Stephen, the one thing that we haven't really talked about quite yet is the fact that congestion pricing has positively impacted the air quality.

Stephen Nessen: Right. Cornell University did the first big study looking at the impact on the air quality from congestion pricing. They found, in Manhattan, in the toll zone below 60th street, the fine particle pollution, they say it dropped 22% in the zone during this past year. Even outside the zone, as far away as parts of New Jersey and Brooklyn and Queens, it also dropped around 1%. I also talked to experts who are like, "Hold on, hold on, hold on. You can't just do one year of looking at something because a lot of things impact the air quality."

Janae Pierre: That's fair. Yes.

Stephen Nessen: It could be the weather. It could be wildfires. A slew of other things can impact it. Even the MTA says it's too soon to comment on the air quality, but the signs are promising, and that many fewer vehicles entering Manhattan is definitely going to help the air quality. Especially the trucks, that was a big thing, beause trucks pay a lot more than $9. They pay well over $22, depending on the size of the truck.

Janae Pierre: Okay.

Stephen Nessen: A lot of companies are changing their schedule so they're not dropping things off during peak charge time. It's a lower charge in the overnight hours, so they're switching times. That also helps with air pollution because they're not idling in traffic all day. Yes.

Janae Pierre: Let's talk a bit more about perception versus reality, right, because that was one of the concerns. It would mess up the air quality. Traffic would be all over the place because people will be taking these shortcuts. Can you put some of that to rest for us?

Stephen Nessen: Yes, I think we can definitely put that to rest. Especially, there were two main groups that were really concerned about that. One of them was folks in the Bronx who already suffer from high rates of asthma, a lot of traffic on the Cross Bronx Expressway. There was major concern that traffic was going to spill over and take these shortcuts to avoid Manhattan, but the Bronx is always going to be the one that gets the worst impact of this. That hasn't come to pass. There's been no discernible increase in truck traffic over there.

New Jersey is the other side that was really concerned about this, and likewise, they just haven't seen those negative impacts. It hasn't come to pass.

Janae Pierre: The experts that you talked to in London, what have they said about what's happening here in New York?

Stephen Nessen: I spoke with Craig Morton from London. He's a transportation planner. He's a lecturer. He said people always complain that traffic is still bad. It happens in London. The reality is we don't really know how much worse it might be if we didn't do congestion pricing.

Craig Morton: You don't know how bad it would have been if congestion pricing hadn't been introduced. It could be the case that the traffic volume at that moment in time when you're doing that kind of retrospective analysis would have been even worse. It's one of those things. It's difficult to figure out alternative futures.

Stephen Nessen: I will add, a lot of folks complain about London because they have seen their traffic get worse in recent years, but that's also due to a bunch of other policies, like adding a lot more bike lanes and closing the streets to certain types of vehicles. They have so-called low emission zones where big trucks can't even go to the center of the city. They really are messing with their traffic system by trying to tamp down on the most polluting vehicles.

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Janae Pierre: Welcome back. I'm here talking with WNYC's transportation reporter Stephen Nessen about congestion pricing, which has now been in place in New York City for one year. 365 days means that we have some data that we can go through. What does the data tell us, Stephen?

Stephen Nessen: Well, we know that there were 27 million fewer vehicles that entered Manhattan below 60th Street. Pretty much that means every month there have been at least 10% fewer vehicles than there were last year at the same time before the tolls went into effect. One of the biggest things I think that we were promised is that bus speeds will increase as a result of this, and they increased a little bit.

Janae Pierre: I'm about to say don't lie about it because I was on that bus. [laughs]

Stephen Nessen: I don't think you're going to feel a 2.3% increase in speed,-

Janae Pierre: Didn't feel it at all. [laughs]

Stephen Nessen: - but it's there. There you go.

Janae Pierre: It's up.

Stephen Nessen: I guess the idea is it will increasingly get better and better, but car speeds went up 4.6%. Again, it's not a massive jump, but it's something. It's a sign we're taking steps in the right direction. Bus ridership actually increased during this time by 8%, and subway ridership by 9%. Again, someone like me who's somewhat skeptical is looking at the numbers like that could also be attributed to a bunch of things like more people are being forced to go back to work in person, so subway ridership is going to go up.

Subway ridership really dropped during the pandemic, and it's only slowly been creeping up and up and up. Is it because of congestion pricing or is it just more people are coming back to Manhattan? It's hard to say. One thing that the data does show that is super interesting, and this is the biggest jump I think you'll see, yes, 2 to 3% increase in speed, all right, nobody can feel that, but the speeds to get in and out of Manhattan have really, really changed. The Holland Tunnel on average is 51% faster than it was before congestion pricing.

Janae Pierre: Except on Thanksgiving Day.

[laughter]

Stephen Nessen: The Lincoln Tunnel, 25%, Queensborough, 29%. We are seeing some changes there.

Janae Pierre: Yes, yes.

Stephen Nessen: Traffic patterns are changing as a result of this, which is totally expected. That's what happens when you start charging people.

Janae Pierre: Yes. Speaking of charging people, let's talk about the numbers with dollar signs. How is the state and the MTA benefiting from this? [laughs]

Stephen Nessen: You know the cartoon where the money go into the eyes?

Janae Pierre: Yes.

[laughter]

Stephen Nessen: Donald Duck, or what's his name, Scrooge dives into the pool of coins.

Janae Pierre: The dollar signs, you roll your eyes, and [crosstalk]--

Stephen Nessen: That's the MTA. That's the MTA right now. They're rolling in it. They got roughly close to $500 million this year from the tolls. Before everyone's complaining like, wait a minute, didn't they just raise the subway fare to $3, and they're making all this money, what's going on? The MTA is such a vast operation, and they have two pools of money. One is for day-to-day expenses, mostly like labor for subways, bus drivers, subway operators, things like that. That's the operating budget.

Then, they have their capital budget, which is all the big projects like new train cars, new signals, improving the quality of your station, such as it is, occasionally you will notice new lighting, and you'll notice new fare gates coming soon, things like that. The money that pays for that is coming from congestion pricing.

Janae Pierre: Now, I know you mentioned that New York City didn't start congestion pricing, but we know that a lot of cities in this country look to New York City for what they should be doing next. I'm wondering, can we see congestion pricing in other cities?

Stephen Nessen: Totally. The MTA says they've already been in discussions with folks in Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston, who are all looking at New York and being like, "Oh, yes, I guess it does work. Maybe we should try that." I haven't heard of any city yet that is taking the plunge to seriously begin a congestion pricing program, but they're definitely in discussion with the MTA.

I guess one of the interesting things that I've learned over the past year, you know, in New York, everybody was freaking out about congestion pricing. I myself was on call for like a year, basically, just waiting for any congestion pricing news to drop, and there was a lot of it. I can't tell you how many times, Janae, I've been woken up at like 5:30 in the morning by a producer at this station who's like, "Oh my God, did you see the new lawsuit just dropped, or the governor just said this, can you [crosstalk]--"

Janae Pierre: A lot back and forth. Yes.

Stephen Nessen: Can you come on the radio in half an hour and talk about it? I was like, "Sure. Okay." I became the go to congestion pricing guru to know what's the latest, what's happening? I even checked Wikipedia, just curious to see how many articles of ours were cited in the congestion pricing entry, and there's at least 35 citations, which is pretty good.

Janae Pierre: Wow. Legacy for you. [laughs]

Stephen Nessen: Which is to say it was such a big deal for congestion pricing to come to New York, but now it's sort of like, "Oh, yes, we got congestion pricing." It almost feels like it's old news. Around the world, I talked to some experts. I was like, "What do you guys think about this?" They're like, "Yes, it's pretty much going exactly as we thought it would. No big surprise there."

Janae Pierre: Yes.

Stephen Nessen: You make money, traffic decreases, and life goes on. You may remember President Trump, the President of the United States, used his platform to say congestion pricing is going to kill New York City.

Janae Pierre: Yes.

Stephen Nessen: Which is just ludicrous because it's just the complete opposite. It's like, it's fine, and this past year actually has been pretty good. Foot traffic increased, business leases are going up. No market negative impact to the city.

Janae Pierre: Now, I know that you spoke to some drivers for this story. What are some of the things that you heard from them?

Stephen Nessen: Well, yes, I guess that is the one thing, the one negative is a lot of drivers are paying a lot more to drive into the city.

Janae Pierre: Everyone isn't happy.

Stephen Nessen: Nobody wants to pay more to do the thing they used to do for free. That's a guarantee. I did speak with some drivers. I spoke with-- right outside of our building, in fact. I ran into 55-year-old Trey Ortiz. He owns a delivery company called Secure Transport. He's from Bayonne, New Jersey, and he delivers art and furniture, things like that.

Trey Ortiz: I don't see much of a difference at all, honestly. That's just what I'm saying. One year, it's still gridlock, and I don't see too much of a difference. The only difference is the bill. That's it. It's [crosstalk]--

Stephen Nessen: Can I ask, has it hurt you financially?

Trey Ortiz: Oh, yes, definitely. Definitely has hurt me.

Stephen Nessen: How so?

Trey Ortiz: I mean, I'm coming into the city every day, just coming into the city, and it doesn't pick up my E-ZPASS. It's just been a number of problems. I get stuff over the mail, and I'm behind in payments because of that, and so on and so on.

Stephen Nessen: Wow. Wow. How much do you think it's cost you this year?

Trey Ortiz: Oh, this [crosstalk]--

Stephen Nessen: Ballpark.

Trey Ortiz: Ballpark. It's costing me a good extra $600 a month about. Yes.

Stephen Nessen: That hurts-

Trey Ortiz: It hurts.

Stephen Nessen: - in this economy.

Janae Pierre: One thing that stuck out to me when you talked to Mr. Ortiz, he's paying an extra $600 a month for congestion pricing. I can't help but think back to when congestion pricing was actually going to be $15, right?

Stephen Nessen: Right.

Janae Pierre: Are there any talks to increase congestion pricing right now?

Stephen Nessen: Oh, yes. Congestion pricing was actually supposed to launch in June of 2024, not January 2025. When it was supposed to launch, Governor Hochul swooped in at the last minute and was like, "Hold on, New York's not ready for this yet," which is also feeds into that perception that this was going to hurt New York so badly. She didn't do anything for the reputation of congestion pricing, I think, with that move. Congestion pricing now is $9, but when Governor Hochul paused it, she created this new fee planning structure.

It's going to be $9 for now, but in 2028, it's going to go up to $12. Then, in 2031, which feels like forever right now [crosstalk]--

Janae Pierre: It's around the corner.

Stephen Nessen: It'll come soon enough. Then, it'll be $15, the full rate. Who knows? I assume it will also continue to go up. It's not going to go down.

Janae Pierre: Before congestion pricing even started, there were a bunch of lawsuits. You mentioned them. There were also those lawsuits out of New Jersey, right? I'm wondering, where do those stand right now?

Stephen Nessen: To the best of my knowledge, my understanding is that the early lawsuits, like the ones from the New-- even Governor Phil Murphy of New Jersey sued to stop this program, which now seems crazy, but those have all been put to rest. Judges have thrown them out on all kinds of merits. I even covered this one from this woman, Elizabeth Chan, AKA the Queen of Christmas. She's written more Christmas songs than anyone else, and even sued Mariah Carey and won because she believes she is the true Queen of Christmas.

Janae Pierre: I'm going to say it, and come for me, Mariah Carey is the Queen of Christmas.

Stephen Nessen: Well, not according to Elizabeth Chan's lawsuit, which prevailed, and she is officially the Queen of Christmas.

Janae Pierre: Whatevs.

Stephen Nessen: That said, her lawsuit against the MTA was thrown out. She was worried that there would be increased traffic and she would have a hard time getting her child to the hospital if there was an emergency. She lives in Battery Park. To the best of my knowledge as well, her worst fears have not come to pass, and that lawsuit was thrown out.

That said, we're talking lawsuits, there is still one more lawsuit lingering, and that is one from the MTA against the Trump administration, because President Trump, as you know, is against congestion pricing, and he wanted to cut transportation funding to New York because of congestion pricing. Basically, he threatened the MTA, kill your congestion pricing program or I will not send you any more funding for your transportation projects, in the whole state, not just New York City.

Janae Pierre: Okay.

Stephen Nessen: They're currently in court. That case has not been decided. There is a hearing later this month, so we'll find out more about it. I will say, I went to one of the early hearings, and the MTA just has such a rock solid legal team. They have more than half a dozen lawyers that show up. The table is full of binders. These guys are just so well prepared. The Trump administration's transportation department's lawyer showed up. It was one guy, and he was almost inaudible when he was speaking to the judge.

Everyone's leaning forward, trying to hear what is he saying, what are his arguments? His arguments just fell so flat. The judge even asked him, "How did you get here today?" He's like, "Well, I took the train because it's inconvenient to drive," and the judge is like, "Yes, exactly." [laughs]

Janae Pierre: Wow. Wow.

Stephen Nessen: Their case doesn't look very strong, but we'll see what happens.

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Janae Pierre: That's WNYC's Stephen Nessen. Stephen, thanks so much for joining us today.

Stephen Nessen: Thank you.

Janae Pierre: Hey, what are your thoughts on congestion pricing? Let me know. Hit us up at nycnownyc.org. Thanks for listening to NYC NOW. I'm Janae Pierre. See you soon.

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