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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC I'm Alison Stewart. A new podcast called Weight For It, as in W-E-I-G-H-T, describes itself as being about people who can't keep weight off their minds. This includes a podcast host and creator Ronald Young Jr. Yes, that Ronald Young Jr who you occasionally hear us offering a smart movie takes on NPR's pop culture Happy Hour, or his own TV film review podcast Leaving The Theater.

Now Ron works in the audio medium so you may not know what he looks like, so it's up to him to describe himself in the first episode of Weight For It. From the jump, Ronald is open and honest about how he feels about his body.

Ronald Young Jr.: I dreamed of having the ideal physical qualities. Muscular arms, I wanted to be tall, I wanted a beard, I wanted abs. I didn't want to be afraid of taking my shirt off. I wanted to be attractive. I knew that being fat wasn't attractive, so I didn't want to be fat. However, one day I got fat.

Alison Stewart: With episode titles like the self-explanatory, A Shame Spiral and articles of weight all about dressing bigger bodies, Ronald brings in experts, real people, and his own feelings are a nuanced and thoughtful look at weight and our culture, and even his own biases.

As one listener wrote about the show, "On paper, I have very little in common with the host, but he is speaking the language of my soul. It's just gut-wrenching to hear someone say the things out loud that I feel on the inside. The show was so needed. I wish every right-sized person would listen to it to understand how those of us that don't neatly fit that category feel on the inside about ourselves all the time." Weight For It is available now where you get your podcast, and Ronald Young Jr. joins me now. Hi, Ronald.

Ronald Young Jr.: Hello, Allison. How are you?

Alison Stewart: I'm great. Thanks for being with us. Hey, listeners, we want to invite you into this conversation. Are you someone who thinks about weight a lot? Give us a call. Why do you think about your weight, how does thinking about your weight affect your life day-to-day? Our phone lines are open to you. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on air or you can text to us at that number as well.

Want to know how do you feel about the body-positive movement or maybe the body-neutrality movement. Does either mean anything to you? 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. You can call in, join us on the air, text that number. Our social media is available as well @allofitwnyc. What was the origin of the podcast, Ronald? When did it come to you?

Ronald Young Jr.: It's funny because I actually used to host a different show for Pushkin called Solvable, and we did a few episodes about bodies. Just generally talking about how we felt about bodies and how we struggle with our own view of our bodies and what we think of other folks bodies. We even talked a bit about clothes, and I realized that I could do a whole show about this, with just talking about my body.

How I feel about it, how other people feel about it. Really, to open the door to have those nuanced conversations. It's been, probably, about two years in the makings. I've been thinking about these ideas, and finally, we got the team together, and we were able to get started.

Alison Stewart: All right, when you have that whiteboard out, and you started putting down all the topics that you wanted to cover, what were subjects you knew had to be on the podcast and addressed in the podcast, and then what was one that emerged along the way? Like maybe you didn't have that initially on the whiteboard, and it made itself known.

Ronald Young Jr.: I think, in a lot of ways, the first three episodes of the podcasts were already sitting in my mind, they were already weighing heavy on me. I'm talking about in those first three episodes, the first just talking about desirability, we talked a little bit about specifically about body positivity, and how that impacts me in the present.

The second episode is about me going to the past and talking about how I dealt with weight in the past and a relationship I had that unraveled as a result of that. The third episode is a trip to my doctor. Those are all ideas already had. When we get to the fourth episode, it gets me to a fork in the road about a decision between being on the constant cycle of weight loss, or taking a drastic step to lose weight, or living in a fat body realizing that it's okay to be fat, what that actually looks like.

That came together as I was making the other episodes where I realized that I was actually at that decision point at that time. A lot of ways, I'm still at that decision point now, so that one came along the way. It's funny. When I think about looking ahead to season two there's even ideas that were in the parking lot for season one where it's like, "When we get to this we'll be able to finish the reporting," and whatnot, but the ones that came together were the ones that I knew we just had to put out right now.

Alison Stewart: You begin every show this way. "Each episode may include references to gaining and losing weight, eating disorders, weight loss, surgery, and weight stigma. If these topics are triggering to you, please take care while listening. We have links to support services in our show notes for anyone who needs them." Why do you start every episode like that?

Ronald Young Jr.: Weight is such a sensitive subject for people. It's such a sensitive subject. People are-- They've been struggling-- Actually, I'll talk for myself. I've been struggling with the thoughts of my weight and my body image for a long time. I wouldn't say that I'm struggling with my weight anymore, but I still struggle with what other people think about my weight.

Beyond that, there's people who have eating disorders, there's people who struggle with body image in their own right, they struggle with having clothes. There's just a litany of issues out there that come with body image. I'm not talking about just like-- Most people will listen to what I'm saying and think that I'm just thinking about medical issues or things that are physically connected to their weight, but I'm talking about the emotional and existential ways that we're connected to our weight that really bother us every day and has to do with the way folks treat us and, a lot of ways, the way we treat ourselves.

I put that warning up front because I know a lot of people are struggling with those ideas. I just wanted people to know that they weren't alone and that Weight For It is really about opening the door to have those conversations that it feels like we're avoiding or lying to each other about.

Alison Stewart: Many conversations around weight are centered around cis hetero female axis often when we talk about that, but you've been able to have some conversations by not having that as the center which has been really interesting. What's been interesting about addressing weight issues with men, in men. Cis men, trans men? It's been really interesting to hear it from your point of view.

Ronald Young Jr.: It's funny, and a lot of people have made that observation. For me it was really-- It wasn't necessarily about the perspective of cis men specifically. It was really just about my personal perspective. That perspective is that of a cis man so that, obviously, what comes through. It wasn't something that I set out to do initially to say like, "I really want to tell everybody what men think," but I realized after having this conversation [chuckles] that I was telling everybody what a man thinks.

I've noticed that, based on the feedback that people have been saying, there's been lots of ways in which it has resonated with other folks, both men and women who-- Women who have never heard men talk about this. Now, I've talked to other men about this, but women who have never heard men talk about this specifically. Then, of course, women, other men who had just finally heard someone say something like this out loud in a conversation that, maybe, they weren't having with their friends or they weren't having with their partners or whoever.

Now that they're able to have it outside, it's helped them to open the door to those conversations. Also, with the last episode that we just put out, we talked with trans activists Da'Shaun Harrison, and we talk more and more about the issues of Black trans fat folks kind of and what fighting for them looks like, and how that helps all of us. It's kind of counterintuitive that me, a cis straight man, is having these conversations, but it's really to open the door to say that there's a plethora of fat folks out there that are all dealing with issues that crossed the diaspora- I'll say diaspora. -that cross all the color and race lines, creed, all of that.

Alison Stewart: I want to go back to a word you use. Things you fight for. Would you explain to folks, right-sized folks who may not understand what kind of things you mean when you say, "We need to fight for these things"?

Ronald Young Jr.: It's funny. People don't think about inequity when they think about weight which is-- I'm glad about WNYC because I believe NYC, New York City, just passed a bill about size discrimination in jobs, so we definitely have some sort of idea that this inequity exists amongst the treatment of straight-sized folks versus fat folks. I feel like, specifically for fat folks, the idea of, say for instance getting on a plane, which is a horrible experience for every single person that gets on a plane.

We all hate doing it, whether you're first class or the back of the plane, it's terrible getting on a plane. Nobody wants to do it. When you are fat, that experience is compounded, just compounded like by 100. When we talk about the things we're fighting for, we're saying like there's experiences that everyone else is having, falling in love, getting on a plane, going to the movies, walking down the street, everyone's having, and everyone's having a bunch of struggles with them.

There's this unique set of struggles that come with anyone who is fat trying to just do normal things with people around them coming with commentary, just saying what you should or shouldn't be doing, talking about how you should or shouldn't look, all of that. When we talk about the equity, we just talk about the idea that there shouldn't be any sort of discrimination when it comes to size based on the lies that we tell each other about what it means to be a fat person.

Alison Stewart: My guess is Ronald Young Jr. The podcast is called Weight For It. Listeners, if you'd like to join the conversation, if you're someone who thinks about weight a lot, maybe give us a call and tell us why and how does thinking about your weight affect your life day to day. 212-433-WNYC 212-433-9692. Let's talk to Margaret who's calling in from New York City. Hi Margaret. Thank you for calling. You're on the air.

Margaret: Okay. Well, I was just telling your person that I think about weight constantly. I'm not sure why, but it's very important to me not to be overweight. If I gain a pound or two all I can think about is what can I do to stop gaining that pound or two. I'm an older person. I don't really judge people, but I do-- I married my husband, he was over 230 pounds, and I never thought about it. '

Then he took a -- One of the diabetic drugs and he drop down to 180. [chuckles] I loved him when he was 230, and I love him at 180. When I look at my sister who is obese or when I look at people who are obese, I'm very judgy. I'm not sure why.

Alison Stewart: I was going to ask you where do you think that comes from, that judginess? Thanks for being honest about it by the way.

Margaret: When I just heard this on the radio, and I thought, "Why do-- " This morning I got on the scale and I weighed 135, and I went, "Oh my God, I got to get then down to 133." I don't know, for me it's very-- It's a whole self-esteem thing. I really feel like I need just to fit in my clothes well, and I don't want to be overweight. I am very judgy about most people's weight. I guess I think it's their fault most of the time. Especially my sister.

Alison Stewart: Margaret, thank you for calling in and being so candid. Ronald, do you have any thoughts?

Ronald Young Jr.: There wasn't really much of a question there. I will say it's interesting because that's the conversation that we're having which is, why are we that judgy to one another? I think the key thing that Margaret said was that she thinks that it's her sister's fault. I think for me, the assumption is always that fat folks are out here just eating a ton and not moving and that is the reason why they are fat.

The truth is, we don't know all the reasons why a person is fat. We really don't. There are more than one reason why a person can be fat, but also, if they are fat because they are eating a bunch of food and not moving, that is perfectly their prerogative. They're worthy of love and care and acceptance in a way that I think we're not honest about why we don't want to provide that to a fat person.

Why? I think when we ask the question why, I think it's trickier for people to actually answer that. Especially when you start with internalized fat phobia. You have to say to yourself, like if we ask Margaret why that two to three pounds is that important to her, because onestly, two to three pounds doesn't really move the needle much if you think about fitting into your clothes or not or any of that. Why is it that important?

What happens if you're 138? What's the worst thing that happens to you? I don't think people really-- They don't sit with the discomfort of those questions long enough to really get to a place where maybe there's some problematic thinking there.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Catherine from the East Village. Hi, Catherine, thank you so much for calling in.

Catherine: Hi, how are you? Thank you for taking my call.

Alison Stewart: You're on the air.

Catherine: Great. I just wanted to say I really resonated with this topic. Thank you, Ronald, for your honesty. I'm someone that was raised-

Ronald Young Jr.: Thank you.

Catherine: -in the late '90s and early 2000s. I'm sure we all remember the emphasis that was placed on being very thin at that time. As I got into adolescence and into my adulthood, I've definitely struggled with eating disorders. My weight has fluctuated and one of the difficult things for me to make my peace with is how differently others have treated me.

Even if my own self-image is in a different sort of a place or it seems maybe not even related to what my weight is, how I think of myself, but to others it seems to be a very important component in terms of how they think of me and how they treat me.

Alison Stewart: Catherine, thank you for calling in. You get into that a lot in the podcast, Ronald.

Ronald Young Jr.: Yes. It's like the idea of-- There's a guest, Michael Jefferson who's on Episode 4 who mentions, "It's what I think that you think of me that is really getting to me." It's mostly because of the ways in which we tell on ourselves when it comes to weight. I had a one friend in particular who he had just had a baby, and we were really excited. He had his first daughter and he was so excited about it. Then he casually mentions, "Yes, I got to get back into the gym."

I'm like, "Why?" This is a guy that is straight-sized, he's a firefighter, he's in great shape. He goes, "Yes, I'm just getting a bit of a dad bod. I got to get rid of that." Me, who's sitting next to him significantly heavier than him is just like, "I don't understand how I'm supposed to process that information when you say it to me." I understand. I think most people will-- They'll compartmentalize those two things.

If we go back to Margaret again, we say there it starts with how I feel about myself and then expands to how she feels about her sister. Then if we talk about this caller right now it's the same thing where we're in this loop of opinions of how people feel about us when looking at us, which makes us feel like we have to take an actionable step afterwards. That's just a tough world to live in.

Alison Stewart: My guess is Ronald Young Jr. The name of his podcast is Weight For It. We'll have more with Ronald and more of your calls after a very quick break. This is All Of It.

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You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Allison Stewart. My guest this hour Ronald Young Jr. His podcast is called Weight For It. It's about people who can't keep weight off their minds. If you're someone who thinks about weight all the time, give us a call, 212-433-WNYC or if you want to add something to our conversation. I see we've got some calls lined up. I did want to get to the second episode, Ronald, where you hold yourself accountable for your behavior-

Ronaly Young Jr.: Some of them.

Alison Stewart: -as a young man. [laughs]

Ronald Young Jr.: It'll be the villain turn. [laughter]

Alison Stewart: No. No, not at all. You were seeing a young woman named Kaitlyn but you decided to keep it secret because of her weight. How did you meet Kaitlyn and how did you justify that to yourself that you were doing that as a young man?

Ronald Young Jr.: I don't want to get too spoilery about that episode, but I will say I met Kaitlyn in college which the episode will-- Gets into a lot. Due to the circumstance at the time, I was straight-sized, and I did not treat Kaitlyn the best. Me and Kaitlyn have remained friends over the years, and we've had time to kind of unpack that relationship both from when we were both 18 years old to now where we're both on the brink of turning 40.

We kind of talked about what that looked like, what that relationship meant at the time and how we view that relationship looking back on it which is a conversation that we-- Takes place over the course of that entire episode. The reason why I think that episode is important is because it outlines the relationship that I've had with weight from since before I was fat to now when I am fat.

It kind of outlines kind of the changing ways in which we view ourselves when it comes to when we are straight-sized or when we are fa-- Or if you are fat, or if you are always straight-size or if you are always fat. It kind of talks about all of those themes which is why I thought it was important to include.

Alison Stewart: Kaitlyn lost weight and you gained weight. She had a tough time even though she lost weight because, as she mentions in the episode, she didn't really adjust her emotional issues and her mindset. She had a rough life, she has some addiction issues, has several children. Now she's sober. I want people to listen to this exchange between the two of you. This is from Weight For It.

Ronald Young Jr.: Looking back on it, I always felt like I was treating you in a lot of ways the way most people treat fat people. Which is like they're not-- ou're not of value.

Kaitlyn: Less than.

Ronald Young Jr.: Yes, you're less than, and your life isn't going to start until you lose weight. How significant is-- Are those moments in your life between you and I? How significant are they when you compare them to the rest of your life?

Kaitlyn: I have thought about it. Throughout the years you'll post something, or I'll see your name somewhere, and I'll be like, "Oh, that could have been good." We could have had-- How many years? 19 years?

Ronald Young Jr.: 20.

Kaitlyn: Almost 20 years? We could have been married with how many kids. Obviously, we weren't dating dating. We `just whenever we get together. I think there could have been potential there, but no, you didn't ruin my life. [laughs] You didn't destroy Kaitlyn but you were definitely, when I wrote down my resentment list, you were definitely part of a pretty big pattern I had. I do think there could have been potential there if we had actually dated and not just been hookups.

Alison Stewart: Ronald, what was it like for you to face her and talk to her about this?

Ronald Young Jr.: This moment wasn't as-- It was impactful and it meant a lot. It meant a lot for the episode as well, but that conversation that I had with Kaitlyn was one that we had had before, over the years of processing our relationship. I'm glad to shared that. When you started playing this clip I thought you were going to share the other clip that's at the end of the episode {laughs] which this is probably, and I'll respond to that, which is probably the more devastating clip because I--

Alison Stewart: Well, I have that if you want to play it. I didn't know if you wanted me to give it away again.

Ronald Young Jr.: Let's not, because it's a bit spoiler. I'll only say that to say there's a moment in which I ask Kaitlyn a question that had been brewing for a while which, essentially, is the question, now that I am fat, "How do you feel about me especially knowing that I treated you a certain way when you were fat?" which is a question that we answer towards the end of the episode.

Sitting in front of Kaitlyn and feeling vulnerable in that way and having the opportunity to ask that question, that certainly felt like a-- It was a terrifying moment, I'll say that. It was a terrifying moment. I don't know. Maybe, Alison, you've experienced this or other listeners have. Just the idea of having an elephant in the room, and not just something simple but something that's been there for years, and you just got to ask what that question is, when you get it out, the worst thing that can happen is you get an answer.

That's also the best thing that can happen. Once it was out in the open, of course we felt better, and we could, maybe, even have more conversations about that. Even since that episode, Kaitlyn and I have had more conversations about that conversation. You know what I mean? We continue to unpack it and process it as it resonates out through the rest of our lives.

Alison Stewart: Let's take some more calls. Hailey's calling in from Mamaroneck. Hi, Hailey, thanks for calling. You're on the air.

Hailey: Hi. Thanks for having me, and thank you for bringing this topic to your show.

Alison Stewart: Appreciate you calling in.

Hailey: Can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Yes, go for it. You're on the air.

Hailey: Okay, so I recently just went through recovery. I was addicted to a prescription drug for about 10 years and one of the side effects of that drug. I realized in hindsight that I had been using that drug to maintain my weight and stay thin. I went through recovery. I'm almost a year sober now which I'm very proud of, but one of the side effects of taking care of my body and myself has been weight gain just because I'm not on this appetite suppressant every day.

I truly actually do feel like my life started once I was able to stay sober, but I still absolutely grappled with this happy medium between what's healthy in terms of what the doctors tell you, what your gym tells you, your body mass index is, what it feels like to not be able to fit into the jeans that you wore for many, many years of your life. On one hand, I'm just-- I'm so proud of what I've achieved in terms of like, yes, it's a huge accomplishment. Then why am I still beating myself up when I look in the mirror, and I'm like, oh, I don't recognize myself and my stomach and my arms? It's just exhausting."

Alison Stewart: Hailey, thank you so much for calling in. Let's talk to Mike from Brooklyn. Hey Mike, thanks for calling in. You're on the air.

Mike: Hi. Thanks from me to you for bringing this up. I feel like this touches on the most essential questions. It's incredible because unless you are overweight, you either are judgy or often you just don't think about it, move through the world with it weighing you down. I'm wondering what your guest had to say about moving around through the pandemic.

I think what it seems to me is there's a emerging or an explosion of the way that you dehumanize people because of, I think, at core, like the previous callers who were talking about, the one in particular who judged her sister, I think it's a fear of dying. Right? It's a mortality that they don't want to look at. You look out, you externalize it, you transfer it to others.

I think a big part of how people, and especially people on the right have processed, is through a kind of a Darwinism. Like, well, it's only people over 65, or it's only people who are overweight or have preexisting conditions. It's a very scary way because you are dehumanizing people. You're dehumanizing who are the most vulnerable. Just, it's shocking how these are blending together, and I appreciate it. Thank you

Alison Stewart: Mike, thank you for calling. Ronald, did you want to respond?

Ronald Young Jr.: Well, I think it is interesting. Well, two things. One, it's interesting that the first caller was saying that she was struggling with addiction, and when she stopped struggling with addiction and she started feeling healthier that she gained weight, which is something that most people wouldn't look at a person who had gained weight and said, "Oh my goodness, you're so much healthier now. You look great."

Normally that's something that's said for people that lose weight. It's also interesting when you think about the pandemic and the ways in which all of us were talking about our weight in the pandemic. We were talking a lot about gaining weight, about how all of us had gained weight and how that was an issue. I think he brouh up-- Mike brings up a very good point.

Alison Stewart: There is, and I don't want to give too much away, an exchange you have with a doctor. A doctor-

Ronald Young Jr.: Whoof.

Alison Stewart: -a doctor who- Whoof. -you start recording it. I'm just going to say he did not listen to you.

Ronald Young Jr.: He did not.

Alison Stewart: He did Not listen to you. You'd lost a good amount of weight, and he just wouldn't acknowledge that-- He was just talking at you the whole time. In the episode you seem angry. What is it you were angry about?

Ronald Young Jr.: I was very upset because, well, one-- It's funny because it's anger, I think I was processing it as anger, but it was really I'd say frustration more and not understanding and not being heard. If you've ever been in a situation where someone was not listening to you, and it could be for any reason, frustration rises quick. It's frustration and confusing. Can you not hear what I'm saying? I just said it three times. Are you not listening? Do you not even care about what I'm saying? That's--

Alison Stewart: You tell him you're working out. He's like, "You got to run. Do you play a sport? I do." Oh, play this other sport. It's relentless.

Ronald Young Jr.: Yes, it was tough. Especially sitting in the room and trying to-- I think the whole reason why I recorded that interaction was because this wasn't the first time an interaction like this had happened with me with a doctor or with this doctor. I think trying to explain it to other people was saying like, hey, this person doesn't listen to me, that most people are just saying, oh, that's too bad, whatever, and we go back to whatever we're doing. Whereas when I've recorded it, people were like, "Whoa, you mean he really wasn't listening to you?" That's why that episode was important to share.

Alison Stewart: Let's try to get one more call in. DJ calling in from Somerset County, New Jersey. DJ, you have about a minute.

DJ: Great. Thank you so much for having me. Interesting topic. It came from a large stock. My family's all over 6'2", 6'3", and 250, 300. I am now well into my 50s and tipping the scale at 400 and this is the first time I'm looking at myself and kind of feeling that mortality, but it's so daunting to think that I have at least 150 to 200 pounds to get healthy. It leads to paralysis because I'm not sure, other than the basics, of what to do. I just don't even know where to start because I just feel, again, overwhelmed at how much weight to have to lose.

Alison Stewart: DJ, thank you so much for calling in. Ronald, can you offer DJ-- I don't want to say advice because people just offer people too much unsolicited advice, but it sounds like he could use your perspective.

Ronald Young Jr.: I think I could talk about what helps me. I think what has always helped me was I got into therapy and I started surrounding myself with people that make me feel good that love me. I started just thinking about the types of foods and the types of things that I was doing that make me feel good. I think if you could focus on what is making you feel good and those relationships, then you will ultimately be okay.

Alison Stewart: DJ, we wish you well and everyone else who called in. Definitely check out the podcast. Weight For It. My guest has been Ronald Young, Jr. Ronald, thank you so much for sharing your work with us.

Ronald Young Jr.: Thank you for having me. This has been great.

Alison Stewart: There's more All Of It on the way where we talk about the new Ed Ruscha exhibit at MoMA. That's next.

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