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Alison: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or listening on demand, I'm really grateful you're here.

On today's show, novelist Curtis Sittenfeld's latest book is called Romantic Comedy, and she'll join us to discuss it. We'll talk about representation in film with Yasmina Tawil, director of film programming at the Arab Film and Media Institute, and we'll talk about a new art exhibit in Harlem featuring the work of a neuroscientist/artist. That is the plan. Let's get this started with the saga of the Roy family.

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Alison: From the very beginning, one question has animated the prestige cable series, Succession, a dramedy about the Shakespearean-esque Roy family whose buckets of money come from a media conglomerate Waystar Royco run by patriarch Roe Logan Roy. It's a question that actor J. Smith-Cameron, who plays Waystar's general counsel, Gerri, eloquently described when she joined All Of It in 2019.

J. Smith-Cameron: The whole idea of the show, the premise of the show is, at some point, succession is inevitable for all of us and for even Logan Roy. I think that that's the whole gripping story, is how will that unfold and who will be able to handle the reigns when it is passed down.

Alison: Last Sunday's episode of Succession was one of the most consequential moments of the series thus far, and definitely put the question of how the torch will be passed down into a new light. Now a heads up, big fat heads up, this conversation will definitely contain spoilers from the last episode of Succession. If you're not caught up and don't want anything ruined for you, in the words of Logan Roy--

Logan: What are you waiting for? A kiss? [censored word] off. Be gone. Bye-Bye.

Alison: Joining me to talk about it and take your calls is Vulture critic Kathryn VanArendonk. Hi, Kathryne.

Kathryn: Hello,

Alison: Listeners, what was your reaction to Succession Episode 3? Where do you think the season is headed? Who will come out on top? Phone lines are open. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You can also reach out on social media @AllOfitWNYC. Before we get into the nitty-gritty details of the last episode, when you heard that this was going to be the final season of Succession, what did you think, Kathryne?

Kathryn: I was, as my five-year-old sometimes says, happyish-saddish. I was thrilled that the show has decided to end because I don't think you can do an episode like we got this last week without an end-point that you've decided on. I think you don't get to make this kind of move without knowing where the goalposts are going to be. I was really sad because it's a great show and I will miss it. It feels like it is such a distinctive and really keystone piece of what this era of HBO has been, which if anybody has been looking at the businessy side of TV news lately, it does feel like we are shifting into a new stage of what HBO will be. It has really defined this era for me. I will miss it when it's gone.

Alison: Will you explain that businessy side part? We'll just take a little tangent for a minute.

Kathryn: Sure. Yes. With the consolidation of Discovery and the HBO streaming service, HBO Max. Discovery Plus used to be a separate streaming platform and HBO Max was its own standalone thing. They are now being combined into a single platform that will simply be called Max. That HBO name will still exist as a cable channel that you can go to and there will still be HBO programming, but HBO is getting folded into this larger thing. It is part of the continuing media consolidation stories that we have seen, and I think we'll continue to see for the next several years.

This big slew of announcements of New Max programming, which if you looked at them, were largely driven by things that are familiar, intellectual property, a new Harry Potter series, a new Game of Throne series, and Succession, among a lot of other things, is original drama. There is a lot less of it than there used to be. I know that HBO will still be making room for original dramas, but it does feel like that space is getting smaller and smaller.

Alison: In your opinion, I want you to put your critic hat on for a minute, what has the fourth season in these first three episodes, and then we'll get into spoiler 2, what has it done well, particularly well?

Kathryn: Yes. This season of Succession has done the thing that Succession is always good at doing, which is to make it seem like everything is always about to fall apart while actually moving very little about the central tension. It is like a sitcom in that regard or a procedural where, fundamentally, we have a central group of core characters and they all have the same relationship to one another. There is this perpetual sense that everything could fall apart or could change or could dramatically shift in some way. You are fascinated while watching them all interact with all of those potential threats and changes, and yet for three seasons, very little actually has changed.

The first couple of episodes of this season were exactly the same kind of thing where you're thrilled to be sitting there and watching these people say very devastating and horrible things to one another, but ultimately, the way that power shifts is very small. In the first episode, you were watching the Roy siblings discuss this new media venture that they might start, but maybe they were actually going to do this other thing and they couldn't really decide. They were going to buy something but were not sure exactly how much it's going to change anything. It is so, so good at keeping you invested in this churn where you are watching them all tap dance in the same place.

Alison: Well, let's talk about how the episode begins. It begins with Logan forcing Roman to fire Gerri, who is the general counsel. Even though-- or maybe because he knows that Gerri could destroy Roman's life if she revealed how he had been texting her sexual messages and images. I want to play the clip from J. Smith-Cameron, who was on our show back in 2019. This was right around when the Roman-Gerri relationship started to develop this psychosexual relationship, partnership. This is what J. Smith-Cameron had to say.

J. Smith-Cameron: Gerri is not intimidated by Roman. He may be her boss technically, but she's not intimidated by him.

Alison: How true was that in last weekend's episode, two seasons later, when Roman stumbles and end up firing her, but forced by his father?

Kathryn: Yes. What a great move also. That is one of the things that's most impressed me about that episode, is that it is this choice that Logan has forced on Roman, and you're so upset about how this is going to change these dynamics between these two characters and you're so upset that you do not see what is coming. The choice to force Roman to fire Gerri feels like such classic Logan Roy manipulative business. Whatever else that character's flaws are, knows his children surprisingly well, is so aware of all of their weaknesses, and is so aware of how much this is going to mess Roman up.

On the Gerri side of that equation, you do get the sense that she is a little taken aback that Roman is actually going to do this. In the question of whether he was going to be most loyal to her or most loyal to Logan, he seems to have chosen Logan in that moment. You can also see the wheels turning. How is she going to spin this later? How is she going to try to undermine it? Then, of course, the event happens, spoilers, and everything falls apart.

Alison: We're talking about Succession, the last episode, the one that just aired. I shouldn't say the last, the season, because it's only Episode 3. Talking to Kathryn VanArendonk, Vulture's critic. If you'd like to get on this conversation, what was your reaction to Succession Episode 3? Where do you think the season is headed? Who will come out on top? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. This is where we're going to get into the big spoiler. Just putting it out there. Here's the other thing about this big spoiler. I had it spoiled for me and then I watched this episode, and it didn't make a difference. It was still as impactful, to be honest.

Kathryn: I am so fascinated and so glad to know that because I had posited that that would be the case because I think the episode is so well created. There was a huge amount of online discussion about spoilers, particularly related to this episode, and so I'm very, very interested to know what people's experiences were with it. For me, great storytelling and a really well-made episode like this one, it does not really matter if you know what is going to happen. It's interesting, but it is much less interesting to me than how it is all executed and how it plays out with the characters.

Alison: Here's the big spoiler, though, for people who-- I think most people who are listening at this point know Logan Roy dies. In the 3rd episode, we know there are five more to go. [laughs]

Kathryn: I know.

Alison: You're so excited by this. What did you make of the creative choice to have Logan exit in Episode 3?

Kathryn: I loved it. I really, really loved it. I think first, for one, I was taken aback. I got early screeners, and so I watched it fairly early and I went to bed that night vibrating thinking everyone's going to lose their minds, which is just my favorite thing about television, knowing that everyone's going to lose their minds. I liked the Episode 3 thing, in part, because it is such a departure from the way monumental events tend to be written into a cable-length season. This is the kind of thing that you would typically expect in a premiere, a finale, or maybe a penultimate episode as a classic moment for this, where it's a big thing and then the finale is about all the fallout.

This to me is a way of fictionally writing in that thing that I just said about spoilers not really mattering, which is to say the event is important and surprise is good. Surprise can be really, really fun, but it is ultimately so much less satisfying and less important to your overall experience than what happens afterwards than this aftermath. The death happens in Episode 3, which is a little bit of the way into the season. The death also happens within this episode, like Episode 3 equivalent. It happens 15-ish minutes into the episode.

The episode itself also is not doing this big giant buildup, it just comes out of nowhere and then you watch everyone scramble to even accept that it's happened, to know how to react, to know what the immediate next steps are. To me, that is so much more fascinating and rich and speaks so much more to how well these characters have been developed than if it had been this big modeling overwrought thing, doomed thing.

Alison: Let's take a couple of calls. Andrea is calling in from Larchmont. Hi, Andrea. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Andrea: Hi. First-time caller. I think now I can read Vulture again because my husband told me that there was a big spoiler alert that we had to watch all three episodes a little ahead of what our schedule would've been. I got to tell you, I was hate-watching this for the last two years just to hear the Nicholas Britell fame. That was it.

[laughter]

I can't believe I'm still this, but I love this boom-bada, boom-bada, bada-bada. Anyhow, that last episode was just-- everything. The writers have been just so good. These last three episodes, every single one of them is a gem, gem, gem, gem. If the Emmy people are out there listening, you know what to do. On topic for this topic, I would say somebody outside the family, and I picked Gerri, not only because I've been watching J. Smith-Cameron since she was on [unintelligible 00:13:48], you know how old I am, but I really think that maybe Logan's assessments of his kids are on topic. That's what I have to say.

Alison: Not serious people. You're not serious people as he would say. Andrea, first of all, call back anytime, you were a delight, and secondly, Nicholas Britell's going to be on the show next week, so make sure you are listening.

Kathryn: Thirdly, thanks for reading Vulture again. It's safe now. You're good. You're safe.

Alison: Let's talk to Suzanne from New Canaan, Connecticut calling in. Hi, Suzanne. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Suzzane: Hi. The elephant in the room for me, and I'm sure a lot of other people, on last week's episode is that he is still married to Marcia, and she was not even called about his death, or at least we didn't see her being called about his death. While the Roy family has a mandate for prenups, and I'm sure that they had one, she was always very smart whenever she was on screen, and it's not beyond Logan to include her in the succession plan. That's what I'm thinking.

Alison: It's just like that theory. Suzanne, thanks for calling. I love this tweet we got from Annie. "Logan Roy will come out on top from the grave."

[laughter]

Kathryn: Would not put it past that man. No.

Alison: We are talking about the last episode of Succession, your reaction to the big event of that episode. Tell us what you think. Where do you think the season is headed? Who will come out on top? 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. We will take more of your calls and have more with Vulture's Kathryn VanArendonk after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. I'm talking with Kathryn VanArendonk from Vulture. We are talking about the last episode, the one that just aired, of Succession, and talking about what happened, who you think will come out on top in the Roy family, and this entire saga of Succession. I want to say, I'm looking at something, I misspoke and I want to correct it. Johnny Ants picked it up. There are 10 episodes in Season 4, 10 episodes to be sure. We have a lot more real estate to cover, Kathryn.

When I said to you earlier that I had read that Logan died and then I was like, "Oh, I'm going to watch the episode," and it really didn't make a difference, it was because it was such good storytelling and it was such a dramatic, not dramatic way that it happened. To your point, it wasn't some twist as you put it. He collapses and we don't really see stretchers and this and that drawn out. It's just the way when you get that horrible phone call about a parent, how it happens. What did you make of the storytelling?

Kathryn: I thought it was so smart. I had seen a little bit of complaining about it, I think, from people who-- I don't want to guess what is happening in people's minds, but there, I think, was a little bit of a sense of needing to see that he had died, that wanting more visual evidence, wanting that lingering camera shot where you see the character's face still. Partly, I think that's because we've all been a little bit broken by television that then says like, never mind, he's not dead, or it was like a surprise. He gets taken out of the plane in a body bag. I saw a little bit of like, who knows who's in that body bag? kind of thing. I feel fairly confident that that is not what is happening here.

In fact, part of what I found so effective about the episode was that because it does not give us very much of that at all, there is none of the emotional release valve that one of those big scenes provides. We're very familiar with the death scene where there's swelling music and the slow motion and it's the part that makes you cry, or it's the part that makes you gasp, or it's the moment where an episode pauses and everyone gets to register what's happening.

In the absence of a moment like that, instead, we are just stuck in this cycle of shock and surprise and denial, which is the exact same place that the Roy siblings are all in as they are trying to figure out how to respond and whether or not they believe and what it actually feels like. I found that to be such remarkably effective visual and also on the page of storytelling choice. There is no place for all of the shock to go, so it is stuck in your body. Anytime a TV show can create that kind of physical response, I just find so impressive and so effective.

Alison: Let's talk to Charlotte from Larchmont, New York. Hi, Charlotte. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Charlotte: Hi, Alison. I think I've called your show a couple of times. I love it because you're on my lunch break, and it's the best lunch break ever, got to say. Anyway, my family watched this show. We've been watching it the whole time through, but we watched it Sunday night. As soon as nine o'clock hit and it aired, we were watching it. I live with my older parents and my younger brother, and we were just watching in a state of shock almost. I think we were in partial denial, partial shock along with the siblings. My dad is still convinced that Logan Roy is alive. He keeps saying, "I haven't seen the body. I haven't seen the body," so we'll see.

Just the sheer acting of all the siblings and how it really felt like, I know some of them use improvisation when they in the scenes besides the actor who plays Kendall, who's very method, but most of them, it really felt so raw, which was just so wonderful to watch, but just as we were not expecting it, neither were they. That just kept it so in the moment. That still, when the episode ended, it was like you described, that feeling of just being buzzing, that buzzing feeling afterwards. The fact that we're still talking about it and it's Thursday.

Also, along with the question of who I think is going to be the successor, who knows? With this show, I feel like anything is possible. There's part of me that wants it to be Connor. The older sibling who's been denied for so long. Who knows? Maybe this will do something good for his campaign and maybe he'll get more than that 1%.

[laughter]

Whatever they do, I know it'll be [inaudible 00:20:44]-

Alison: Oh, sure.

Charlotte: -the writing, the directing.

Alison: Charlotte, thank you so much for calling in. For people who don't know, the name of the episode was Connor's Wedding. He was planning to get married in this-- It wasn't really his wedding, but it was a little bit of a publicity stunt for his pathetic presidential campaign.

I want to play a minute-long clip from Alan Ruck who plays Connor. He joined All Of It at the third season finale. He reflected on Connor's background and relationship with Logan because the first thing he says when he finds out that his father's died is, "He didn't like me very much." Here's Alan Ruck letting us know who Connor is.

Alan: We can just assume that Connor maybe struggled in school and then maybe Connor, to impress his old man, went to university to study business and then quickly discovered he had no aptitude for it whatsoever and really didn't like it. My thought is, well, maybe he tried business school and that was a bust, and then maybe he tried art school and realized he had no talent. Then he was like, "Oh, wait a minute, I don't have to work. I don't have to do anything. I can travel. I can collect stuff. I can have fun. I can just do whatever the hell I want."

I think for many years he was scared of that environment with all these very tough, edgy people trying to outthink each other, and I think Connor feels lost many times in that. Now he's come to a certain age where he is like, "I've got to do something really to impress the old man before he dies." There'll be one moment in my life where my father says, "Connor, that was really amazing. Well done."

Alison: We are at that point. What did you think of Connor's reaction, "He didn't even like me"?

Kathryn: Connor is such a heartbreaking character. They're all heartbreaking in their own special messed up ways, but Connor, the second episode of this season, the last big scene that Logan has with all of the siblings is in this karaoke bar, which I just love so much because it feels such an incongruous place for him to be. It's that moment where he tells them, "You're not serious people."

Connor has this little monologue where he says at the end, "I've learned to live without love. That's my superpower." As he says it, as much as these are terrible people, and I want to be clear that this is not them saying-- I support all of their choices, but you do absolutely feel for what he has had to do in order to get to a place where he can move along with his life and be at all functional. There is this absolutely horrible, tiny detail in this wedding episode where they discover that Connor is really upset about the cake.

Willia says, "He keeps calling it a loony cake." Then the siblings are like, "Oh, yes, right. Well, when his mother was institutionalized, they gave him cake to make him feel better. It's all he ate for a week and now he can't eat that cake anymore." You're just like, "What?" Then the episode just rolls along. It is that little detail that I think suddenly you imagine all of Connor's life and you just think, "Wow, that is so sad."

Alison: Another detail is if you know what's happening, is you realize that Tom, who is married to the daughter, Shiv, tries calling her twice, and she doesn't pick up the phone. She's the person who feels that she didn't get to say goodbye to her father properly. That is just when you're watching it the second time through, it's really another one of those moments that really grabs you like, "Oh, she missed her moment because she was being spiteful about her husband."

Kathryn: Oh, yes. Except, of course, she was being spiteful about her husband because he betrayed her to her father and-

Alison: Oh, that.

Kathryn: -he took all the divorce lawyers in New York. No one comes out here clean, which is another thing that I think is so effective about the show. It is so great at creating these moments of sympathy for all of these people and at the same time you have to be like, "Oh, right, and they did this terrible thing." All of the performances are so impressive. I am always astound for Matthew Macfadyen's performance in this show. I just think he is remarkable.

The way that he, on that plane, was attempting to tell the rest of the family that Logan had died but couldn't really do it and was surprisingly compassionate for Tom in that moment, and then lashes out at Greg, I love that character and I love that performance so much.

Alison: All right. We're going to tiptoe into conspiracy theories. I've got one-

Kathryn: Great.

Alison: -from Instagram. "Roy Logan was murdered. Murdered, I tell you. Investigations will bring out more questions."

Kathryn: Wow.

Alison: That's a good theory. Some of the theories have come from the poster of Succession before they released it. Some people are saying, "Oh, there's going to be some sort of a plane crash or something because there is a plane in the poster," so now we know that was very, very important. We have a conspiracy theorist on our staff, our producer, Simon Close, who I've just dragged and put him on the microphone. You have a theory based on the poster, Simon.

Simon: I do, yes. Buckle up, everybody. Tinfoil hat's on.

Alison: Exactly.

Simon: Let's get into it. Besides the plane, I want to point out that you also see Logan wearing a watch in the Season 4 poster, which I read is after-the-fact a time's up for Logan thing. What I'm coming in here to talk about is that underneath--

In the Season 4 poster, you see the whole family standing on the ledge of a building and the building has glass windows with a reflection. Underneath the characters is the New York City skyline. For the most part, it's non-descript, could be any part of the city, but you see the Empire State Building right underneath Kendall as if it's like an arrow pointing up at Kendall, which could mean, to me, that they're telling us he's next in line or maybe the Empire State Building is skewering Kendall like he's going to get--

Alison: Impaled somehow?

Simon: Yes. Something's going to happen to Kendall. That's Simon's conspiracy Corner. Thank you very much for listening.

[laughter]

Kathryn: Love it.

Alison: Thank you. [laughs] Have you heard any conspiracies, Kathryn, that you've really enjoyed, aside from Simon and the murder?

Kathryn: I have heard various plane and also building pointing things, so I very much appreciate that close read. One thing I really liked, I think it was pre-Season 4. There were all of these character posters that came out. There's a Tom one and a Shiv. Each one makes it look like they are potentially the next successor Certainly, the show is winking at playing with all kinds of visual iconography.

I wish I also could bring somebody from the Vulture staff on. My colleague, Jesse David Fox, loves watches and is a big watch-head, so has lots of thoughts about all of the watches everyone wears. I cannot necessarily speak to Logan's watch as meaning any particular one thing or another except that he has good taste, apparently, in watches, so congrats to him.

Alison: Big shout out to the art direction department and the marketing team behind Succession. Before we let you go, I wanted to ask you about writing, because we've been talking about the strength of Succession's writing. I do want to mention the Writers Guild of America currently voting whether to strike in May, depending on how these negotiations pan out. The last major Hollywood strike lasted from November 2007 to February 2008. What are you thinking about, what are you anticipating, what will you be reporting on as we think about the Writers Guild of America possibly striking?

Kathryn: This is, I think, a big, important story in television and film for Hollywood right now. No strike has been authorized yet, although it does seem fairly likely to me based on what I am seeing from a lot of writers, that a strike may well happen. There does seem to be a lot of distance between the Writers Guild and where the studios want to be on some very important issues. That 2007/2008 writers' strike was an attempt to address streaming and the way that writers were not being compensated now that streaming existed. The strike now is an attempt once again to address that exact same thing.

There are really fascinating, and I have to say, extremely frustrating stories from writers about what it is like to attempt to earn a living wage right now, particularly when you work for streaming television where the old-school television residual system is completely broken, where the idea that one works on a TV show and then you have a stable job is completely broken now that there are so few 22-episodes seasons that run for multiple seasons. I am very, very curious about how they are going to be able to find some middle ground.

The other thing that I am thinking about as far as this particular strike versus that 2007/2008 strike is that it's going to seem very different for a viewing audience. In 2007, for people who remember, it was immediately palpable that there were no more writers working. There were a couple of weeks of TV from bank to scripts, and then everything fell apart. Late night fell apart, scripted shows stopped, and it is part of the reason we have so much unscripted television now, is that studios were able to fill gaps with reality programming during that writer's strike.

It will not be that way this time because there are so many streaming seasons that have been banked for a long time because very few TV shows are produced on a short turnaround now. You're not going to feel that same kind of sudden gulf where all of the television used to be. Yes, that's good news, I think, for a viewing audience, but that makes it harder on the striker side to be able to point to exactly their impact right now in a new cycleway.

I want to make sure that everyone understands that just because you're still able to watch a lot of scripted TV this summer, if a strike does happen, that does not necessarily mean that the strike is having no impact. That impact will show up. It will just happen months or maybe a year later and it's something I'm really fascinated to see how this will all play out.

Alison: Kathryn VanArendonk is Vulture's critic and friend of the show. Thank you so much for laying out the stakes of the WGA writer strike as well as walking us through Episode 3 of the final season of Succession.

Kathryn: I'm so happy to be here.

Alison: Remember, early heads up, we're going to have Succession composer, Nicholas Britell, on All Of It next Tuesday, the 18th to talk about his work on the new film, Carmen.

 

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