[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On the show today, psychologists John and Julie Gottman will spend an entire hour with us, talking us through how to turn conflict in relationships into connection. It's the subject of their latest book. We'll learn how to fight right. Poet and author Crystal Wilkinson will join me to discuss her latest book. It is beautiful. It blends memoir with recipes. It's called Praisesong for the Kitchen Ghosts: Stories and Recipes from Five Generations of Black Country Cooks. That is the plan. Let's get this started with an Off-Broadway dramedy about alcohol addiction.

[music]

In The White Chip, a talented stage director named Steven, his drinking has escalated from college keggers to adult professional functions where the libations flow to hiding booze in soda bottles so he can imbibe throughout the workday. Despite the drinking, Steven is still excelling at work, starting a successful theater company and directing acclaimed shows. For a while, he is a functioning alcoholic, but only for a while, and then he blows his big dream gig because he's so wasted.

Steven has to figure out how to save his career and his life. He makes a few attempts, attending AA meetings where you get a white chip on the first day, symbolizing the desire to stop but Steven starts collecting them at an alarming rate, drinking and returning and drinking and returning. All this while his relationships are dying on the vine. Steven is a stand-in for director and playwright Sean Daniels, who wrote the semiautobiographical show currently starring Joe Tapper in the lead alongside actors Crystal Dickinson and Jason Tam. The White Chip is running at the Robert W. Wilson MCC Theater Space through March 9th. Joining me now to discuss the show is Sean Daniels. Hi, Sean.

Sean Daniels: Hi there.

Alison Stewart: Stars Joe Tapper. Hi, Joe.

Joe Tapper: Hello.

Alison Stewart: Jason Tam, welcome back.

Jason Tam: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: We wanted to say Crystal Dickinson was scheduled to join us as well, but couldn't make it. Big shout out to her. We're fans of hers and we know she's a card-carrying member of public radio. She told us once she had a tote bag.

[laughter]

Listeners, we want to bring you in on this conversation. What has been key to your sobriety? Was it something someone said or a strategy you employ or a type of therapy or counseling? We want to hear your sobriety stories. If you feel comfortable to share on air, you can call in at 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in, talk to us on air. You can also text to us at that number. If you'd like to remain anonymous, our DMs on Instagram are open @AllOfItWNYC. Sean, where were you in your recovery when you were writing this play?

Sean Daniels: The short story is October 12th, 2011-- Well, I should say first it's a comedy because everything I'm about to say is going to sound horrific, but I want to start by saying that it's a comedy first before I tell you that on October 12th, 2011, I tried to take my own life because it'd been so long since anybody had smiled to see me coming, and I had been drinking continuously for months at that time. On that day, I called the, I always say, the woman that didn't like me but loved me enough to answer. I called my mother, who I didn't get along with.

It was, oddly enough, her one-year anniversary of getting sober, and she got me through that night and she got me into a rehab center. On about day four of being in rehab, I started to write the play. There's a monologue that's in the play that I wrote on about day four that for the most part is actually pretty untouched since then because I've just always been a part of theater and it's the world that I know.

Part of what you're doing in rehab is just trying to process how did I get here? Where did it go wrong? I think for so many addicts, they struggle with how come they can't just make better decisions. There's so much kind of internalized shame that comes along with it that you very quickly try to figure out what you did wrong along the way. That's because we don't yet know, we don't yet talk about the science of addiction. We don't talk about genetics, we don't talk about neural pathways and all those things like we do for every other disease.

I started writing it at the very beginning, and I've been so lucky over the last 12 years to have great performers and colleagues like Sheryl Kaller, our director, and these two actors here to help me bring it to life and to be able to watch the response that audiences have each night.

Alison Stewart: Why do you think that one section has remained untouched through all the iterations?

Sean Daniels: I think it's really true. I think that I tried to process it by writing it down, and I just think it's essentially the mania of what it is to try to get a drink when you can't. I think it stayed because it felt very true in the moment. It was honestly what I was going through. I don't even think I could write it now because I don't know that I remember how really crazed it feels in those moments to be able to do it. Joe has to do it every night so he has to live that there.

I think that's why it's stuck, and I think so many people-- The crazy thing about this show is that we've been doing, I think, seven previews, and after every preview, we get contacted by people, first of all, saying, "Congrats, that's my story as well," or saying, "How can I get help? Can I get a copy of the play?" Or, "Can you give me a copy of the play to give to my son, brother, ex-wife, mom?" Whoever it is. A lot of them mention this monologue, and they're always like, "Yes, you got it right." I was like, "I'm not sure it's good writing" or it's just that I just wrote down what was the truth that was happening at the moment, and that was my way of processing it.

Alison Stewart: Joe, you've played Steven in other iterations. What did you take from your past portrayals that's really helped you with this one?

Joe Tapper: Well, it just keeps evolving, and it's been really wonderful to experience the show as I grow and as the work grows and as the world grows because the first time that I did it was in 2019, and it's a different world than-

Alison Stewart: The before times.

Joe Tapper: -the before times, absolutely. I would say the thing that I take the most through this now, and I always felt this way, but I feel this way, especially now, is that I get to do this. Being on stage is not a given, and I get to do this, and I get to celebrate this story, and I do that with great appreciation every single day. The fact that I get to do it, and it's an act of service. Truly, this play is an act of service. I'm a recovering alcoholic as well. The 12th step, the only way you keep sobriety is by giving it away. This is pure 12-step, pure service for me.

It's above me. It's beyond me. I get to do this every single night and get to do it with these incredible-- With Jason and Crystal and Sheryl and you Sean. It's just been-- Even our crew, our stage manager, Elizabeth and Tyler, and Christina, it's been truly an incredible experience.

Alison Stewart: While Joe is holding down the role of Steven for 90 minutes, Jason, how many parts do you play?

Jason Tam: I've never sat down and [crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: I'm actually putting him on the spot.

Jason Tam: I think it's somewhere between 15 and 20. Both me and Crystal play just really a large amount of characters, and it is so fun. I love that kind of character work, and it's an opportunity that I don't often get to have, and I'm so thankful for it. It's so fun.

Alison Stewart: What drew you to the project, knowing that you would have to figure out 15 to 20 different people to be every night?

Jason Tam: Well, the thrill and the victory of really feeling like I'm getting to do 10 plays in one play because I'm playing so many characters, but also because I love theater, but I also care very much about community enrichment and the health of our society. Theater always makes the world better, but it often makes the world better in a sort of intangible, kind of immeasurable way. This show is quite literally making the world better. As much as I care about the community, I'm not a community leader. That's not what my strength is but I can make funny voices and make funny faces.

[laughter]

It's so great that my skill set is really overlapping with my worldview on this project. I'm so thankful for that.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Jonas is calling in from Park Slope. Hi, Jonas. Thanks for calling in.

Jonas: Hi. Thank you, Alison. Thank you for having me. I'm a man in recovery and certain principles have absolutely saved my life and put me on the track to just add to the net good in the world. One of those things was my first meeting with my current sponsor. He was a friend of mine, but he became my sponsor. It was a Zoom call. He lives in Arizona. I was staring down at the rug in my apartment. I was dejected and sad and the first thing he said to me, as my sponsor, he said, "I have two things to say to you." I said, "Okay." He said, "No, no, no, I require eye contact for this." I looked into the camera, and he said, "One, don't die." That's pretty obvious but the second thing he said was profound to me and to many others, as it turns out. He said, "Be sweet to yourself." I thought, "Wow, be sweet to myself." I share that concept when I chair meetings. I speak at meetings I qualify, I lead meetings around town. I did one last week at the [unintelligible 00:10:13] in Soho and literally two people who shared adults, grown adults, a man and a woman, both cried over the concept of being sweet to themselves. Like, "I never thought of it that way. I've wanted to be sweet to myself. I'm not sure I am. I want to be, I hope to be, I ought to be, I need to be, I want to be."

I was just like, "You can't really respond when you're at the chair." After the meeting, they came up and they hugged me, and I was like, "You are sweet to yourself, I can tell." They're like, "I don't know." I said, "I do know." Anyway, so just everybody, even if you're not in recovery, just be sweet to yourself, be sweet to everyone else every day. Give it away. Like your host said, the only way you can be happy, joyous and free, even if you're not an addict, you want to be happy, joyous and free, give away love and joy freely and you will get it back."

Alison Stewart: Jonas we'll dive in. Thank you so much for calling in, really appreciate your contribution to the conversation. We're talking about The White Chip, it is running at the the Robert Wilson MCC Theater Space through March 9th. I'm speaking with playwright Sean Daniels and actors Joe Tapper and Jason Tam. Sean, you've seen a bunch of different actors in this part because this has been done in regional theater and around. What's something you've learned about this part and this character you've written seeing it played by different actors?

Sean Daniels: I think actors are amazing people. I believe that almost any actor can do anything. Though one of the weird things about this show is that Joe is the first actor in recovery to play the lead role. I say that I think actors can do anything because all the records that are before were phenomenal. There's a depth I think that comes with lived experience. There's so much talk about how do we make sure that there's proper representation on stage. Even in the recovery world, there's talk about making sure that people with lived experience are the ones that are making policy in our country that affects all these people.

I just think to be able to see someone on stage that understands it, I feel like the audience gets that too, that they see Joe in certain moments and they think like, "Oh, my god, that guy's been there." Not that any actor couldn't do that at the time but the truth of the way theater works is it's always a very compressed period of time that you're trying to take a lot in, and Joe is bringing a decade's worth of lived experience in these moments. Even it was helpful along the way. There were some stuff that I was like, "I think I'm going to cut this. This is weird." Then Joe would be like, "You could not cut that." I have said that to myself at four in the morning. It's totally true, it's like, "All right, fine, we'll keep it."

Joe Tapper: It's funny a woman came up to me yesterday after this show, maybe she had five or seven years in recovery. She didn't know that I was-- I told her that I had 11 years, and she goes, "You know what, you did something in the plane, I thought, 'He might be, he might be in recovery. I bet he is." [laughs]

Alison Stewart: How do you protect yourself? Personally, in this role?

Joe Tapper: Sure. How do I-- Thank you for that. That is such a great question. I protect myself by acknowledging that the play recovers every night. It is a 90-minute thing and I'm aware of that but every night it heals, and because it heals, I heal with it. I'm open to it, I'm open to the journey. Like I said, it's beyond me. I really lean into the fact that it heals, the play heals, the character heals, and we all go home. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Jason, you play Steven's boss in the show. It's a re-occurring character, and he really, really wants to support him. He wants to give him chances, but it gets to the point where he really can't anymore. What's something that Steven's boss tries with Steven that seems helpful? What's something that he does or says that just doesn't work?

Jason Tam: It's such a fascinating character because you're right, I think the boss really cares about Steven, is really excited about the energy that Steven is bringing into the theater, bringing in revenue, bringing in audiences, bringing in energy. That stuff is so valuable for any theater. He's so excited about it that he's maybe willing to sweep some things under the rug and look the other way about certain things. I'm getting off topic. You were asking me about what's one thing that the boss says that is helpful and one thing that's maybe not?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jason Tam: One thing that the boss says that the boss thinks is very helpful is give Steven a stern warning, an ultimatum, and then Steven reacts in a way that he says all of the right things and in a way that makes the boss feel like he's just saved Steven's life. The boss reacts by saying, "Great, way to man up about it," as if this can just be boiled down to something as simple or as reductive as manhood or something. That's not helpful. One thing that the boss says that is helpful. I'm trying to think of a single thing that the boss--

Alison Stewart: He shows him a lot of love.

Jason Tam: He does. The boss just completely believes in Steven because he keeps getting these amazing reviews. He showers Steven with praise because like I said, you can't pay enough money to get that kind of energy into a regional theater. It's so invaluable.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. When you think about Steven, Joe, when you're playing him, he suggests early on that his drinking may have actually help him in his work.

Joe Tapper: Yes.

Alison Stewart: In the beginning, is he entirely wrong?

Joe Tapper: Well, no, I don't think--

Alison Stewart: That's fuzzy about it a little bit.

Joe Tapper: That's the trick, right? That's the double-edged sword. It's certainly something I've experienced in my life. I will admit that when I was early in my auditions, auditioning for grad school, stuff like that, I was like, "Okay, I've got a callback, this big callback for this great grad school that I'd be so lucky to go to. Let's go to the local bar and have two drinks and then go to the callback." Hey, the magic came and it was there on my shoulder, and it all worked out. I think that that is that vicious, vicious, vicious downward spiral.

It's like you said, Sean, I'm really struck by what he says that we all go through this, like, "How did we get here moment?" I certainly have that in my life. What's important, and you've said this before, and I've heard other people say this, it's really important to acknowledge that we were born that way. We were always going to be that way. There was no way unless it was a total abstinence, but who knows how it manifests in other ways.

We were genetically created for this. It's important to acknowledge that because it isn't a manhood, or a strength, or a willing. A sweet person came up to me after the show and said, "The whole thing about science, I have ADHD, I can't will it away. It's science." I was like, "You're right, yes, yes, yes, absolutely."

Alison Stewart: Sean, what was a moment or a scene or an encounter that is in the play that was difficult to include? Maybe it went in and went out, you really had to think about it hard before you put it in?

Sean Daniels: There's the scene where I tried to make my own life, and I call my mom. Actually has changed a fair amount. I don't think that I got it right until I was a parent because I don't think I understood what it would be to get that call until I was on the other side of it. Once I was on the other side, I was like, "Oh my god, what a terrible son."

[laughter]

You're very self-centered at the time and you very see it from your perspective. I didn't have a great relationship with my mom and so I really saw it one-sided. Then once I was a parent to be like, "Oh my god, even if your kid drives you crazy, everything stops in that moment." Then you would do whatever you could to be able to keep your child alive. Nothing matters more, you'd give your own life in that moment in an instant even if you don't like them. It's like I don't think I really understood the scene until I was a parent. Once I was a parent, and the scene got rewritten, and then I feel like now it clicks in just a way that it didn't before because I didn't really understand the true point of view of both the characters in it.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Sean Daniels, Joe Tapper, and Jason Tam. We're talking about The White Chip which is at the MCC Theater Space through March 9th. We're taking your questions and your calls about your own sobriety. We'll hear from a fella named Joe. We'll hear from a Joe from Jersey after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

You're listening to All Of It on WNYC, I'm Alison Stewart. We're talking about the play, The White Chip, which is at the Robert Wilson MCC theatre space through March 9th. I'm speaking with playwright Sean Daniels and two of its actors Joe Tapper and Jason Tam. It's about a talented but troubled director who was struggling with alcohol addiction. We've been asking people to call in with their sobriety stories. Joe from Lavallette New Jersey's on line one. Hi, Joe, you're on the air.

Joe: Hello. I quit April 21st, 1988 when I was 39 years old. All of my children were young. I had been drinking steadily since I was about 15. I went to a couple of AA meetings. It was good, but it didn't really stick. I read Courage to Change, the book. My wife worked and I worked and I felt like I really needed to change. I went down and gave a talk in Washington at a federal thing with a fellow physician.

On the way back, on the train, I got a couple of vodkas and brought it to my seat and he said, "What are you doing?" I said, "I'm just unwinding." He said, "Joe, we've got too much to do to be derailed by that." It just hit me, and I never took another drink.

Alison Stewart: Joe, am I to understand that you're a medical professional?

Joe: Yes. I have a PhD.

Alison Stewart: Joe, thank you so much for calling in and sharing your story. I really appreciate your candor. If you'd like to share your story of sobriety, we'd be happy to have you on air. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Joe brought up an interesting point saying AA not really for him, wasn't really connecting for him, and that's a little bit a part of the show about the character of Steven that he is not really interested in engaging with ideas of God as part of his recovery program or a higher power. Why was it so important for you to bring this into the conversation, Sean?

Sean Daniels: Some startling facts about addiction in our country is that someone dies from addiction every three minutes. You're more likely to die of an overdose than you are to die in a car accident, regardless of whether you use or not. More people died last year from overdoses than died of AIDS at the height of the AIDS crisis. All those three things are true. We don't really talk about any of them.

We don't really have options available to people. If it was any other disease, you would have multiple different pathways that you could get through, and I think when it comes to addiction, because we believe that it's a moral failing, that's in the conversation that, "Just please, uncle Brian, don't come drunk to Thanksgiving this year." We just feel like somehow it's possible for people to do it.

We don't talk about it. At least when I was struggling, I didn't know there were multiple options out there. I was court-ordered by the state of Kentucky to attend 20 AA meetings with my DUI, and that was all they had to offer in terms of ways that you could get. When I went and it didn't click for me. I was like, "Well, now I'm really screwed because this is the way that I'm told everybody does it."

I think part of why we love to do this show is because it tells people, first of all, that it can be joyful, that it can be humorous, that it can be about community, and also there are multiple, multiple ways like there are with any illness for you to be able to get sober and to be able to get help and lots of people like this caller have done it different ways. For some people it's easy, some people it's harder.

If you had cancer, you would get multiple medical opinions, you would get lots of options. You would be part of support groups. People would run marathons for you. Nobody runs marathons for drunks, but someday they will. People would bake and bring things for you.

[laughter]

I just think what's important to me to get it out there is that, for me, it was a lot of different things and it was mostly science. It was mostly learning about brain structure in terms of dopamine, in terms of the reward systems, and how you get stuck there. If people come and say, "Your way is not the way at all, but I want to do it this way," I would say like, "Go for it." I want people to know there are multiple pathways to recovery.

Alison Stewart: Joe, your wife is a great person of faith and a producer on the show, I'm assuming you are as well, or maybe not.

Joe Tapper: Oh, a person of faith?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Joe Tapper: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What were the conversations like given there is a lot of questioning about God in this show? How did you talk to her about it? How did you talk to Sean about it?

Joe Tapper: Oh, all things can exist at the same time, is how we've always approached it. Faith has come in and out of my life. I just acknowledge with great respect that many, many things are true at once, and with an open heart.

Alison Stewart: [unintelligible 00:24:56] intelligence as well.

Joe Tapper: Not only is she a producer, but she's also done such a great job of like taking on our-- We have a 7-year-old, and she's letting me rest and sleep, and oh gosh, I love her so much for that. I have a great admiration for her.

Alison Stewart: Jason, you play an elderly man with Parkinson's. You play a sassy bartender. You play a boss. Do you have a favorite part that you play in the show?

Jason Tam: Oh, gosh. It changes all the time. I love sassy bartender because honestly, it stemmed from a character that pops out every once in a while just at home.

[laughter]

I'm not going to lie, he exists at home, and now, he's on stage. I love getting to play Britt, who is the recovery specialist towards the end of the play, particularly because the play is so exciting. It's written in a way that is so agile and fast-paced, and it's these vignettes just back to back to back.

Then, all of a sudden, it stops and takes a breath when Stephen goes to this last recovery place. Over the course of four scenes, there's this beautiful arc between Britt and Steven where at first, they're just like oil and water. They just do not get along. They do not see eye to eye. They have completely different senses of humor worldviews. Over the course of four weeks, they form this really wonderful camaraderie, and I think that's a beautiful story to tell.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to John, who's calling in from Hauppauge, Long Island. Hi, John. Thank you for calling in and sharing. Hi.

John: Hi. My story, I'll make it quick. My dad was highly functioning but alcoholic. My brother was a destructive alcoholic, and I was a young man watching all this. In high school, I was a heavy drinker and smoker of marijuana. I got into college, same thing. Heavy user of both. It got to the point where I was starting to black out and have anxiety over not being able to get to the keg fast enough.

I was at a party where I really liked a lot of the people there. It was a cool party, and I was about a senior in college, I got to this one point where my beer was getting near empty, and I had anxiety about getting back to the keg in a hurry, but I had to go to the bathroom really badly. Bottom line is I didn't get to the bathroom in time, and I had a very embarrassing accident in front of a bunch of people, and that was my wake-up call.

That was my slap in the face. I had flashbacks of my brother's destructive behavior, my dad's. From that moment on, I made up my mind and I started drinking less and less and less, and I was able to catch it. I was able to have the discipline to cut it out on my life. Now, I drink very little. Haven't been drunk in 30 or 40 years. There are success stories, I think, and that's one of them. It took a lot of willpower.

Alison Stewart: John, thank you so much for calling in. One of the things that I think is really interesting to play, and you have to pull this off, Joe, is that you have to show us Steven's descent, but not with a lot of props, and there's no screen imagery or anything. You really have to do it with your body. Talk to us a little bit about those conversations with your director about how we see Steven physically unravel.

Joe Tapper: Well, the director, Sheryl Kaller is incredible. I am so grateful. I have endless gratitude for her. I say this as it's true. Every great thing in the show that I do somehow has come from her. She's been such a great guide and a great incredible director and collaborator. I think we just tackled it. We started this journey five years ago. It's been five years or so.

Just slowly almost without, this is where this is, this is where this is in this life, and what that person has and that spirit, and this is where they transition to in the next, and it happens so fast, but it does have a physical gesture with it. We just wanted to be very specific about that in that storytelling, the difference between a middle schooler and a high schooler, and the difference between a high schooler and a college student and then a professional, and then someone who's at the wits end of their journey.

Jason Tam: I'm so impressed with what you're doing, Joe, because not only are you completely and honestly telling the story of somebody that is going in and out of withdrawal and all of the physical symptoms that come along with that, but you're also stopping every 10 seconds to narrate. The flip is so specific and it's so frequent, and the going back and forth is just astonishing.

Joe Tapper: Oh, come on. Jason is a hero of mine, as is Crystal, so to hear them say this is incredibly humbling, and I reject it.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: I want to read you a DM we have. This has some resonance for you. "Sober 17 years coming in March. I performed on Broadway multiple shows and told myself that performing drunk and high was the line to never cross. That line kept moving until I couldn't do it anymore. I worked with someone who told me they were counting days. He, rest his soul, took me to my first meeting March 6, 2007. I felt seen and heard. The community of AA, I'll keep coming back. One day at a time. I'm alive."

Joe Tapper: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: In the arts, is that a difficult thing, the idea of trying to stay sober? There are parties, there's so much celebration.

Sean Daniels: It's even worse than that. Our industry is really set up, in a way, the number of weeks you work is based on whether you get insurance. You're often out of town away from your provider. You're not with your family and friends. Then it's just baked into the culture. We talk about this a lot, that you think somehow that's part of the deal that you make. It costs you, but this is what you need to be an artist. None of that is true, but I think it's really baked in there.

One of the things that we are really trying to work on is how do we create support systems for artists? How do we really try? I work with an organization in Florida that's trying to tackle this problem because, oddly, airline pilots, lawyers, nurses, every other industry has things in place to be able to help you, but it does not exist in the arts-

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting.

Sean Daniels: -for it to be able. If you're an airline pilot and you're struggling, there's a number that you can call. They promise that it's anonymous. Another airline pilot will call you. They'll get you the help that you need. We don't have that in the arts, even though we claim to be the most empathetic people that have ever walked the planet. One of the things we're really working on is figuring out how can we do that support for artists?

I feel like it really is baked into our culture, opening night parties, galas, celebrations. The guys talked about just having to relax on the train. All the time, you've worked six days in a row. You got through an opening. You got a good review. You got a bad review. Whatever it is, it's all baked into how, as an industry, we celebrate or let steam off. We just want to provide resources for people.

Joe Tapper: Why don't you open your mind? You've got to open your mind. Use this to open your mind.

Sean Daniels: That's right.

Jason Tam: Artists are very creative people. They like to walk up to lines and cross them. It's tempting and dangerous.

Joe Tapper: Oh, yes. I've definitely crossed that line.

Alison Stewart: Last question. Whose idea was it to put in a flyer about where to get good mocktails near the theater?

Sean Daniels: Oh, I think that was Annaly's.

Joe Tapper: I think it was Annaly and Aaron, the producers. They have this really beautiful-- I had a moment where someone came up to me after the show. I saw this person during the show and they came up to me and they said, "Hey, thank you so much. I'm an alcoholic." I said, "Me too. May I hug you?" She said, "Yes." Then she said, "I'm not sober right now." I said, "You're here." We didn't have that flyer, and then the next day we did as a resource. "Hey, you're here. Hit this QR code and there's resources for support."

Alison Stewart: The name of the play is The White Chip. It is running at the Robert W. Wilson MCC Theater Space through March 9th. My guests have been actors Joe Tapper and Jason Tam, and playwright Sean Daniels. Thanks for coming down to the studio.

Sean Daniels: Thanks for having us.

Joe Tapper: Thank you so much.

 

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