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Brigid Bergin: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin, and now we'll turn to another installment in the All Of It series, Small Stakes, Big Opinions where we look at the hills that people seem willing to die on over questions of almost no consequence. Maybe heard last week's groundbreaking discussion about whether a hotdog should be considered a sandwich or not. Today's high-minded debate is a geographic one, upstate New York versus downstate New York. Where is the line? How do you know when you have crossed it? Can you draw the border on a map or is it just something you feel in your bones when you've crossed over? The number is 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692.

Maybe it's a particular exit on the Taconic or I-87, or maybe you consider it upstate. That first stewards shop and gas station as you head north out of the city, I think it's East Fishkill, or any of the other ways that you distinguish between upstate New York and downstate. We want to hear from you. Call in, tell us about it. It's at 212-433-9692, and you can also text at that number or you can chat with us on the socials @AllOfItWNYC. What area or landmark would you say marks the dividing line between upstate New York and downstate? A crucial question. [laughs]

My guest is a leading authority on this, in fact, and the many ways of answering it for years. In fact, if you search this question, you'll find a ton of people sending him their maps on social media. The social media site formally known as Twitter, under the hashtag, where is upstate. I am very pleased to welcome my WNYC and Gothamist colleague, Albany reporter Jon Campbell. Jon, thanks for joining me today.

Jon Campbell: Hi, Brigid. I feel like my entire career has been leading to this moment.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] I think it has been, but let's take a step back in time if we could to a 2018 article that you wrote in my original hometown paper, the Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, and it's headlined, 11 maps of upstate New York that will make you mad. Why do you think this question gets people so hot and bothered?

Jon Campbell: Oh boy, I've given a lot of thought to that, and really what it is is there is no one answer, but people swear to you that they know the answer. There's this weird dichotomy there that gets people really, really fired up. It is a thing that I've trolled on social media over the years because exactly why we're talking about it today, it is a fun-spirited debate with almost no stakes whatsoever, although there are times where there can be stakes. Governor Hochul, her housing plan earlier this year that she had pushed people in 'downstate counties'. Local governments in downstate counties would have to create more housing than local governments in upstate counties, so there are times where it can have--

Brigid Bergin: Wait, wait, slow it down, pump the brakes here. We'll get to the politics in a minute. All right.

Jon Campbell: I couldn't help myself. I couldn't help.

Brigid Bergin: I know. It's too easy for you and I to go there, but we have to stick with the spirit of the segment just a little bit at the top because I need to share with you some of the text messages that we have already received. One of our first listeners says "Where does upstate start? 15th Street with a smiley emoji." Another listener writes, "The Tribe Borough Bridge is gateway to Upstate." Another listener writes, "Upstate New York is anywhere above you. I live in Long Island, so everything above Manhattan is upstate. It's all relative." Some early opinions from our listeners on what is upstate. Now, okay, Jon, we will get into a little bit of the seriousness, which is the politics. Go ahead, react to some of our listeners.

Jon Campbell: Well, I got to say, so there are very few upstate definitions that make me roll my eyes, but I got to say that the folks who say 14th Street, 15th Street, north and Yankee Stadium, those are the ones where I question whether they're just trying to troll a little bit here or whether they actually believe that because I think you'd have a pretty hard time seriously arguing that parts of say, the Bronx are upstate. Listen, there are so, so many definitions out there. I grew up in the Buffalo area, and it never would've occurred to me growing up that that area was part of what's considered upstate New York. I didn't really give it a whole lot of thought when I was growing up, but there are thousands of definitions out there, and that's what makes this debate so fun.

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to the phones. We've got Mark who is calling from Puerto Rico. Mark, you have a-- Go for it.

Mark: Yes, hi. Anything north of 14th Street is uptown and anything north of 59th Street is upstate. I learned to read in Buffalo, so I'm quite familiar with the drive.

Brigid Bergin: What for you helped you come up with that very specific definition of your uptown Upstate dividing lines?

Mark: A Leonard Corrin cartoon from the cover of the Village Voice from, I think I was in high school where there were three bearded figures, one of whom was saying, "I haven't been north of 14th Street in 15 years. I have been north of 14th Street for 20 years and then 25 years and each of their beards was progressively longer." I get it from there. Actually, just because I did spend my youth going to Buffalo from the New York area in a car, I would have to say that it doesn't really get to be upstate until once you're around Albany.

Brigid Bergin: Interesting. All right, Mark, thank you so much for that call. Jon, I want to read to you another text. This listener writes, "I don't know where the border is, but I do know that anything north of Kingston at the very least, is upstate." That comes from Jeff in Kingston. Jeff decided that that is upstate. You started to raise the all-important issue of the politics of this because there are actual political stakes or policies involved in this question. You were talking about the governor's housing plan, and I cut you off and I'm sorry, but tell us a little bit more about when the upstate-downstate divide actually matters.

Jon Campbell: Well, it actually matters in times where there are differences in the law. Governor Hochul's housing plan never ended up making it through, but places downstate would've had to create more housing than upstate. Say the minimum wage too, the minimum wage in 'upstate' is slightly lower than the minimum wage in New York City and Westchester and Long Island. There are times where it comes into play, but most of the time it's a silly fun debate.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Are there any maybe upstate downstate prejudices that might be on people's minds when they try to answer this question for themselves?

Jon Campbell: Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. I'm very cognizant of the fact that our audience right now and all the time is primarily New York City-based, and you're going to have very, very different answers there than if you polled people in Buffalo, Syracuse, Utica, Albany-

Brigid Bergin: Rochester.

Jon Campbell: -the North country, Rochester. I can't believe I forgot Rochester.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Thank you.

Jon Campbell: I'm very sorry to the people of Rochester. There are 'upstaters' who feel that upstate can be a term used by people in New York City and the surrounding area to group them all together when there are differences between all of those cities and metro areas that we just mentioned.

Brigid Bergin: You mentioned that you hail from Buffalo, I mentioned that I hail from Rochester. Do you think people in those regions think about this the same way people in New York City think about it? How would someone from Buffalo necessarily think of the upstate-downstate divide?

Jon Campbell: I don't think they think about it very often, quite frankly. I think that people like I said, I grew up in the Buffalo area not really thinking about upstate at all. I remember Tom Golisano, when he was running for governor in the early 2000s was airing ads about improving the upstate economy. I was a young kid at that point, and I remember thinking, what is upstate? Are we part of upstate? Not knowing the answer. I don't think that people spend a whole lot of time thinking about it up there, quite frankly. When they do, they spit out their hot takes and here we are.

Brigid Bergin: All right. You moved us in this direction. Speaking of politicians with some hot takes, you and I are both pretty mired in the politics of New York and so are some of the folks we're going to hear from. Take a listen.

Speaker 3: For decades, if not centuries. New Yorkers have struggled to answer one key question, in your opinion, what's the border or landmark that divides upstate and downstate? Mr. Suozzi?

Mr. Suozzi: I say north of Putnam and Rockland County.

Speaker 3: Ms. Hochul?

Ms. Hochul: Upper border of Westchester.

Speaker 3: Mr. Williams?

Mr. Williams: Well, upstate is a direction, and if you're from Brooklyn, Upstate is actually Bronx, but I'm probably just say above Poughkeepsie.

Brigid Bergin: Those of course were the Democratic candidates in the 2022 gubernatorial debate. Kathy Hochul, Tom Suozzi, Jumaane Williams, and they were all weighing in. We also had some of the same answers given by some of the Republican candidates who ran for governor. Those were printed in the Times. Jon, are you ready to go back and forth a little bit with how they answered this question?

Jon Campbell: I'm ready.

Brigid Bergin: All right. I will start, and this came from Lee Zeldin. His answer was, "It seems like in a state of 19 million or so people, that there seems to be about 20 million different answers."

Jon Campbell: None of which came from him apparently. Rob Astorino, he was the Westchester County executive. He says, "If you ask people from Long Island and New York City, they say it begins in Westchester, which is totally wrong. I would say it begins in the northern part of the Hudson Valley after basically the MTA line."

Brigid Bergin: Now we have Harry Wilson. He was a businessman. He said "I don't like to divide the state. I actually think about a regional approach to the state. Western New York is very different from the capital district where I grew up."

Jon Campbell: Andrew Giuliani, he said, "A lot of people say it begins where Metro-North ends but I would say if one identifies as an upstater, then go with it."

Brigid Bergin: Oh, it's a very-- Anybody can have upstate. It sounds almost like saying upstate is in your heart. Something like that, Jon?

Jon Campbell: [laughs] I may have said that tongue firmly planted in cheek to a New York Times reporter once, and he printed that as my definition. There's some truth to it too because like I said, there's no one answer. I don't know. Generally speaking, a lot of people do say the MTA line, and there's some logic to that because you can take a train into the city. You're still in this area that is New York City-focused, and there's some logic to that. Who knows?

Brigid Bergin: All right. I got a couple of more texts and I will say, there's another vote from Simon in the control room who says if you can get there on Metro-North, it's not upstate. A listener writes, "Upstate begins two hours north of Manhattan." I guess that depends on how you're traveling. Metro-North runs-- Whoops. Below that are suburbs and exurbs.

"I've heard people non-native to New York refer to Westchester as upstate. Ridiculous." Thank you for that listener, and thank you for the passion of that. Let's go to Joan in Caldwell, New Jersey. Joan, thanks for hanging out. Please, we want to hear your strong opinion on where does upstate New York begin.

Joan: It begins north of Albany. According to my husband's grandmother who spent her whole life in Lake Placid, she was just barely seeding Albany to upstate. Basically, it's north of I-90, although Syracuse is just below I-90. Just call Syracuse North, but Buffalo's Western New York, [unintelligible 00:13:59] Binghamton, Southern Tier. Otherwise, it's like the Adirondacks, yes, upstate. The Catskills, not really, not so much.

Brigid Bergin: Interesting. Jon, reactions.

Jon Campbell: Joan, I love that call for several different reasons. One, you know your geography up where I'm at near Albany here, so I appreciate that very much. Two, that's not a definition that is unique to Joan. There are people who believe that that upstate begins north of Albany. That's one that I've heard on social media over the years, and they view upstate as more the Adirondacks north country area. Joan, you're not alone in believing that. Though I would say it's certainly a minority opinion.

Brigid Bergin: I will report that our broad [unintelligible 00:14:51] Juliana Fonda reports the Catskills are definitely upstate. Juliana in the control room has a strong opinion about that. Listeners, we are having an essential conversation on All Of It here on WNYC right now. I am speaking with my colleague Jon Campbell, WNYC and Gothamist Albany reporter extraordinaire. What is his area of expertise that we were tapping right now? How are we using his valuable time? Well, we are discussing the divide between upstate and downstate New York, and we want to hear from you. Give us a call. The number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. We'll have more of your calls and your very strong opinions just after this break.

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You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Alison Stewart. We're having a really important conversation right now. We are talking about the line between upstate and downstate New York. We are taking your calls and your very strong, very low-stakes opinions about it. I will have to read another from Zach from Brooklyn.

Zach writes "The white knuckle part of the Taconic is like a wormhole. When you stop breathing, you're still downstate. When you exhale for the first time, that's when you're upstate." We have a tweet that said, "As soon as you start seeing more green than brown on Google Maps, that starts about Tarrytown, that's when you're upstate." We have a whole bunch of listeners who want to weigh in. Let's go to Carol in Manhattan. Carol, where does upstate begin?

Carol: Well, it began several different places in my life. When I lived in Croton, if somebody would call Croton or Westchester Upstate, it was like an arrow in my heart. I grew up in the Bronx. When I was young, Westchester was pretty solidly Republican so my parents considered anything above Westchester, anything above upstate. I still draw the line at the Westchester Putnam.

Brigid Bergin: Westchester Putnam. Carol, thank you so much for that call. Jon, we have a little bit of a skeptical caller, that you and I will have to do our work in responding to. Let's go to Jono in the West Village. Jono, thanks so much for calling WNYC.

Jono: Hey, what's going on? It's a great segment. Jono is my name. I live in the West Village and I'm trying to be invested in your catological study of trees and squirrels. Tell me why me in Manhattan, why I need to know about these lines of upstate. Obviously, there's important reasons. We're all sharing at stake. There's taxes, there's conflict and stuff. Right now you're boring a lot of New Yorkers to tears. Tell me why I need to know this stuff. I'm ready for a legit response. Tell me about the I-90 and the Tacomic and where there are certain aqueducts, whatever. What do you got?

Brigid Bergin: Wow. Jono, do you live Manhattan? All right, Jon Campbell, let's go for it. First up.

Jon Campbell: Nobody is forcing you to pay attention to this, Jono. That's what I would say first. The other thing I would say, you're bored to tears, but also compelled to call in. I don't know. I think there's two different things at play there. What I would say is there's a whole state out there. That's the point here.

Brigid Bergin: That's right.

Jon Campbell: New York extends beyond New York City. It extends beyond the five boroughs. There are great areas of "upstate New York" to go visit and check out. I think anything, it's good to promote them sometimes.

Brigid Bergin: All right. Let's go and get Chris in the Catskills. Chris, thanks so much for calling.

Chris: Thank you. The term upstate is used a lot by city people because I live in Manhattan and I split my time with the Catskills in a town called Andes New York. The term upstate is for New York City people, anything above the Bronx. For people around here, the term the city is anything that includes Rockland County and Westchester, maybe parts of Dutchess County. We have a daughter who goes to school in Alfred, New York, and no one would ever call that upstate. That's central New York, and then Buffalo is Western New York.

Jon Campbell: Oh, I don't know that I would say no one would ever call Alfred upstate. That's pretty squarely within the definition of many people's upstate New York I would say.

Brigid Bergin: Well, we got a text that a listener sent that has another interesting, I would say, somewhat similar take. "I don't know for sure where upstate starts, but if you are closer to Canada than Manhattan, you are definitely there. Also, Buffalo is not simply upstate. It's," and I'll tell you, this is how it's written, Jon, "West New York." Judge's ruling on that one, please. Would you call it West New York?

Jon Campbell: Well, I certainly wouldn't call it West New York. I would call it Western New York, but there is some level of debate whether Western New York should be considered part of upstate New York or whether it's its own thing. Other people would say upstate is the umbrella term for the entire area and Western New York is a subdivision.

Brigid Bergin: We have a lot of callers who want to offer their opinion. I'm going to see if we can get maybe a handful of them in really quickly. Let's go to Jill in Warren, New Jersey. Jill, where do you think upstate is and why?

Jill: Above the range of WNYC when I'm going on the east side, but I went to Syracuse University, and there, everything much north of that, and the Adirondacks were north.

Brigid Bergin: Jill, thank you so much for that call. Let's go to Happy in Manhattan. Happy, real quick, where is upstate?

Happy: If you're going by canoe, it's the southern end of Lake Champlain. If you're in a car, it's north of Saratoga, and if you're from Plattsburgh like I am, it's everything north of the Adirondacks.

Brigid Bergin: Happy, thanks so much for that call. How about Chuck in Riverdale?

Chuck: Hi, upstate begins after Metro North Poughkeepsie, but my biggest concern is that with all the politics going on in Hochul's term that people may want to advocate to split the state because the politics is so different from north of Albany and New York City. That's my biggest concern. I'm glad for this segment and to answer the caller, that's why we're talking about this.

Brigid Bergin: Yes. Thanks, Chuck. Thanks for listening. Thanks for calling. One vote for Chuck. What do you think, Jon?

Jon Campbell: Hey, there are secession movements sometimes as he referenced, but if that ever happens, I'll eat my shoe.

Brigid Bergin: Let's talk to Bob in Brooklyn. Bob, thanks so much for calling WNYC.

Bob: Hey, I am happy to be on. I think anything south of Syracuse is upstate, but that sets up a real quandary because Syracuse is the central tier so if you're moving north, you go from upstate to central.

Brigid Bergin: I don't know. Don't you have to go through the capital region on your way?

Bob: Depends on which route you take.

Brigid Bergin: I guess that's true. Route 17 could take you there. I see what you're saying there. Thank you so much for your call, Bob. Mark in Portchester. Mark, thanks for calling All Of It.

Mark: Hey, thanks. To me, it's a total state of mind. When I'm in the Catskills, I feel like it's upstate, but then when I'm in Albany, I don't feel like that's upstate. It's very confusing to me, I guess, you could say.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Your upstate definition depends on where you personally are at the time. Did I hear that correctly?

Mark: I hate to say it, but it's a New York state of mind.

Brigid Bergin: Billy Joel. I think he's performing tonight. That's a great reference. Mark. We appreciate that. Jon, I have to bring it back again to a little bit of seriousness because I understand that there was actually a polling question that was thanks to you that asked this question of people across New York State. This was a public policy poll. What did the poll's respondents actually get asked, and how did you get that question on there and what were the results?

Jon Campbell: This was back in 2016 during the presidential primaries and New York was of consequence during those presidential primaries. The company, Public Policy Polling was doing a New York poll. They put out an ask for any questions you might want to ask that aren't necessarily related to the presidential races. I raised my hand and wrote them up a question about what's the best different definition of where the upstate New York boundary actually is?

To say that it answered the question, not so much. Everybody was all over the place, 29% said it was anything north of Westchester County, 25% said anything north of New York City, 22% said anything north of Poughkeepsie, 7% said anything north of Poughkeepsie except for the Buffalo area. It was all over the place.

Brigid Bergin: That's interesting. Do you think that question had the right nuance? What'd you think of the response there?

Jon Campbell: Well, I wrote it, so I think it had great nuance, quite frankly. I think if I had to do it over again, I would get rid of that north of Poughkeepsie, except for the Buffalo area because I think that took away from the north of Poughkeepsie but that was a nod to my people in the Buffalo area who wouldn't consider themselves upstate. Listen, I think it proved the point, which is there is no consensus on this whatsoever.

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely. I know that you asked this question on Twitter back in 2018. Nick Reynolds, who's the senior politics reporter over at Newsweek, gave an answer that rejected the premise of the question. He wrote I prefer a "spheres of influence model based off a combination of the New York state public high school athletic association districting system and cultural factors such as garbage plates, and where certain beers are available. Greater overlap happens in areas of greater population density." Jon, are there just a couple of those tangible cultural factors that might go into a natural, socially defined border between upstate and downstate?

Jon Campbell: Yes. The biggest is does your region revolve around New York City, quite frankly? When you get to people on those Metro-North lines, for example, a lot of them commute to the city to work. I'll throw out a shout-out to my pal, Bill Mahoney, who's a reporter at Politico. He likes to say that the dividing line is, I got to get this right, when the pizza is thicker than a bagel. That's when you've crossed into upstate. When it's the other way around, that's where you're downstate.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Pizza thicker than a bagel. I love that. I guess I have to just throw in because how could I not ask you do you think affiliations with particular sports teams have an upstate-downstate divide? You, for anyone who's ever heard you ever talk about a sports team, are a Buffalo Bills fan. We talked yesterday about the New York Yankees. Is there an upstate-downstate line when it comes to sports fandom? Does that help us draw the spheres of influence as our friend Nick Reynolds might say?

Jon Campbell: I would say that in general, sure, yes, that could be used as a data point, so to speak but it gets complicated in areas like where I'm at right now, Albany, New York, where you have a lot of Giants fans, you have a lot of Jets fans, you have a lot of Bills fans, you even have some New England Patriots fans, if you can believe that. It gets a little messy in some areas of the state, I would say.

Brigid Bergin: Jon, have you heard any calls today that would've moved the needle for you or added any layers to this upstate downstate question that you're going to be thinking about, tweeting about later?

Jon Campbell: Well, I did love Joan's call in part because she said that her grandmother lived north of-- It seemed like it was handed down through the family lineage. I certainly like calls like that. That's the one that I'll be thinking of. Did anything move the needle? I don't think that it is possible to move the needle on this debate, but I will say that there's no one answer, but the MTA region is at least there's some logic behind that.

Brigid Bergin: Fair enough. I think we will leave it there for now. My guest has been Jon Campbell, the Albany Reporter for the WNYC and Gothamist Newsroom Resident Expert on the upstate-downstate divide. Jon, this was so fun. Thank you so much for joining me.

Jon Campbell: Thank you for having me, Brigid.

 

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