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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thanks for sharing part of your day with us. If you couldn't be with us each and every minute, you can always check out our podcast, we're On Demand. We had great interviews this week with Jon Hamm and John Slattery about their new movie, Maggie Moore(s), and a really inspirational interview with artist, Bisa Butler. Her show is on display at the Jeffrey Deitch Gallery until June 30th. You could even just listen to the interview and then look at the pictures on our website, but go see it in person, it's pretty great.

Coming up on the show next week, actor Cynthia Nixon will join us to preview the next season of the HBO series, And Just Like That. She's just a cool, smart person, so we'll talk about things. We'll talk about this season of the podcast, Slow Burn, which focuses on justice, Clarence Thomas. That's in the future, but right now, let's talk running.

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If you are in the group of people who believe the only reason to run is because someone is chasing you, maybe my next guest will change your mind. There's a new book called The Slow AF Running Club: The Ultimate Guide For Anyone Who Wants To Run. Yes, I know there are a few of you out there who don't like that colloquialism, but that's the book's title, and it's written by someone who knows what it feels like to be told he wasn't really the type to run.

The book covers everything from buying your first pair of running shoes, to setting goals and establishing running as a habit, all the way through marathon training. Joining me now to talk about his book and to take your calls is Martinus Evans, founder of the Slow AF Running Club and author of Slow AF Running Club: The Ultimate Guide For Anyone Who Wants To Run.

Welcome to the studio, Martinus.

Martinus Evans: Thank you for having me, Alison.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, if you've recently decided to take up running, or if you're telling yourself you're going to take up running but haven't yet, give us a call and tell us about your experience. This is a shame free zone. We want to hear what's been rewarding to you as a starter as you start your runner's journey, but maybe also what's been challenging, or even emotionally challenging about getting started. Or if you have questions about getting started as a runner, we can take your calls as well. Here's the number. 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. That is also a text number for us these days, 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC. Or you can hit us up on our socials @allofitwnyc.

Martinus, I want you to brag for a minute. How many marathons have you run?

Martinus Evans: I've run eight of them in my 300 pound body.

Alison Stewart: How many races, do you think?

Martinus Evans: I stopped counting over 100.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] My goodness. When you first started running, did you think you would become a marathoner?

Martinus Evans: No, I didn't. I even think the way I even got started running is completely different from what everybody else in their complete journey when it comes to running.

Alison Stewart: How did you get started?

Martinus Evans: 10 years ago, I found myself in a doctor's office. On my feet, working 8 to 10 hours a day, wearing these hard bottom dress shoes, selling suits, and I started to develop some hip issues. I went to go see a doctor, and as I'm sitting in this doctor's office telling them all the things that's going on, "Hey, doc, this hip hurts. I'm on my feet. Used to be a football player. What's going on?" He looked at me and said, "Mr. Evans, I know why you're in pain." "Okay? Why? You haven't touched me. You haven't put a stethoscope on me. You ain't did none of that." He was like, "You're fat. Not only you're fat, you need to lose weight or you're going to die." Out of frustration, we continue to have this conversation, and he was like, "You need to start walking on the track," and all this other stuff. Out of frustration, I said, "Skip all that. I'm going to run a marathon." He laughs at me and tells me that's the most dumbest thing he has heard in all his years of practicing medicine.

Alison Stewart: I do not like this person. I just want to say that up front. I do not like this person and the way he handled you. You were doing it a little bit at the beginning, "I'll show you. I'll show somebody."

Martinus Evans: Spike.

Alison Stewart: You just went right for the S-word, spike. You're very clear that you don't have to do this to lose weight. This book isn't about running to lose weight. What happens when you remove weight loss from the discussion around running?

Martinus Evans: Oh, man. The grass is greener, the birds chirp louder, and you're able to really enjoy running and enjoy movement just for the sake of movement. I have a quote that says the celebration is in the application. Once you take weight loss or the numbers out of this, you can celebrate the fact that you put on your shoes and got out there and did something, anything, and that's okay.

Alison Stewart: What are some of the emotional benefits of running?

Martinus Evans: There are so many things I can say about running. I would say my favorite thing is, it's generally accepted not to hit people. Pounding the pavement is probably my first go to when it comes to dealing with somebody who has not nice things to say to me.

Alison Stewart: So it's a way to deal with your frustration.

Martinus Evans: Deal with your frustrations. It's great for mental health. I would say overall, it just makes me feel grounded. The fact that I'm out in nature and I'm listening to the music that my body makes, the sound of your feet, the way you're breathing, your heart rate pounding, all of that is music to my ears.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Vincent from [unintelligible 00:05:35], who is actually running right now.

Hi, Vincent.

Vincent: Hi, how are you?

Martinus Evans: What's up, Vincent?

Vincent: Thanks so much. I really appreciate this segment, and it's been part of my life since I quit the football team in 9th grade and realized I was destined for a lonelier sport. I am now 36, and I find that I get slower every year, and it is a little dispiriting. Sometimes to the point where I ask myself, "What's the point?" I've still managed to get back out there and run pretty hefty distances, but significantly slower. Just curious of your take on that.

Alison Stewart: On the aging body, on becoming a different kind of runner.

Martinus Evans: Listen here, your body is meant to change, and it's okay that you get slower. The fact that you're not a professional athlete is great because you're still out there. The beautiful part of all of this is that you don't have to compare yourself to your previous numbers. I would like to tell him that comparison is the thief of joy, and we want joy in your life. Continue to run, and continue not to look at those numbers.

When was the last time you went running without looking at your watch, or even having your cell phone with you? Try that a few times and really enjoy, like I said earlier, the music that your body makes.

Alison Stewart: John is calling in from Virginia.

Hi, John. Thanks for calling All Of It. You're on with Martinus Evans.

John: Hi, good afternoon. How are you guys doing?

Alison Stewart: Doing well.

Martinus Evans: Doing well, John.

John: I've got a question regarding runners high. My wife's been running for almost 20 years, and I don't understand it. I can't go more than half a mile without being out of breath. What is it? How does that feel? How is it different from anything else?

Martinus Evans: Oh, man. Runners high is amazing. It's the elation that you have. The sense of nothing. You have no other worry in your head and in your mind, and just running just seems to be effortless. One of the things I would recommend, John, is slow down. Maybe you're running too fast, and that's why you peter out a little bit. Or the other thing is add intervals. It's okay to add a run-walk interval inside of that, and that way you're able to get out there for a little bit longer and not feel as tired. Maybe you too will feel that runner's high.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Liz from Westchester.

Hi, Liz. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Liz: Yes, hi. Martinus, I burst out laughing when I heard the title of your book. I was like, "This book is long overdue." I am definitely one of your slow AF runners. I just want to ask you, what else are you planning to do? Are you going to get a group together? Because I definitely would love to join a running group of fellow slow AF runners. How soon can we get your book as well?

Martinus Evans: Absolutely. A couple of things. Slow AF Run Club started off as a virtual community. You can find more about that in your favorite app store. So iOS and Android, download the Slow AF Run Club app, or find us at slowafrunclub.com. Yes, one of the things I'm also in the process of doing right now as we speak is launching a nonprofit arm to the Slow AF Run Club. With this nonprofit arm, once we get it up and running, we will be having in person chapters. Our overall goal is to get 1 million people to start running in the body that they have right now.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Martinus Evans. The name of the book is Slow AF Running Club: The Ultimate Guide For Anyone Who Wants To Run. The name makes you laugh a little bit, makes you smile. It's going to make some people mad because the-- but that's all right. How did the name come about?

Martinus Evans: I was running New York City Marathon. For everybody who has run in New York City, there is a bridge called the Queensboro Bridge. That bridge is a beast. It's a beast of a bridge. It's quiet. There's no crowds. I got off this bridge, and running on First Ave, I seen this guy on my left hand side, and he was pointing at me. He was saying something, but I didn't understand what he was saying. I run closer to him and I take my headphones out and he's like, "You're slow AF buddy. I was like, "What?" He's like, "You're slow. Go home."

I get in an argument with this. I'm like, "No, you go home. You're drunk. I'm running the race. I've trained, you go home." When I finished that race, because I did finish that race, I vow that I would wear Slow AF across my chest just as Superman had that S across his chest as a badge of honor to let people know that I've ran races where they've ran out to water, where they took up signs, where the porta potties was messed up, and I still fit into these races in spite of all of that stuff. That's what Slow AF Run Club means to me.

Alison Stewart: Why do you think people are frightened of being slow?

Martinus Evans: The competition of it. I think running is the only sport where we are on the same course as the professional runners. You could run New York City and run behind Des Linden. I think for a lot of people, they get that all up in their head and they're like, "Oh, well, Des is out here. I need to do that." That's not necessarily the case.

What I found out recently is that most road races are permitted as a parade. We're all participating in a running parade. Last time I checked, I didn't see Santa Claus try to beat up Mickey Mouse in the parade. Why is it the same thing when it comes to these road races? The thing I always tell people is that if you're not a professional runner and your life does not depend on you getting first, second, and third place, you are participating in a running parade where you've already paid to get a participation medal at the end.

Alison Stewart: Before we go any further, your logo is the happiest little tortoise with some paisley going on. [laughs]

Martinus Evans: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Just love it. Just wanted people to have that visual. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Maybe you've recently decided to take up running or you're telling yourself you're going to take up running. Give us a call, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, or maybe you're somebody who already runs, tell us what you enjoy about it. Or maybe you're a slow AF runner and you just want to shout out Martinus Evans and his book, Slow AF Run Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run. The number's 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can also text us at that number.

Bob from Brooklyn is calling in. Hi, Bob.

Bob: Hi, how are you?

Alison Stewart: Great.

Bob: I have an irony of running, for me. Always been jockish, in my younger years, and I've always been among the faster and quicker people against whom I was competing, but never liked running very much until I had one unexpected perfect moment of running. It was summer. It was late. I had to walk the dog, and I wanted to get in and out before a huge thunderstorm started. I didn't quite make it. I'm coming home. There are these huge silver dollar size raindrops that start. I'm a block away and I look down at the dog and I realize I'm not going to make it, because the dog is older. I dropped the leash, and I leave the dog and said, "You're on your own." I took off running, and the dog is running behind me. I can hear the chain flapping in the wind behind me and hitting the sidewalk, and that sound is getting lighter and smaller. I realized I'm not running anymore. I'm floating.

Alison Stewart: This is poetic.

Bob: I was on just the toes were touching the ground, and the heels were wrapping up behind me and kicking myself in the backside if I'm going-- It was effortless, and it was joyful.

Martinus Evans: That's what I'm talking about, Bob.

Alison Stewart: Bob, thank you for calling in. We went on a journey with Bob.

Martinus Evans: We did.

Alison Stewart: We definitely went on a journey. What's your take on motivation? Some people think you need to have goals versus having motivations. Where do you stand?

Martinus Evans: I stand with goals. I stand with, you actually need a trifecta. You need values, you need goals, and you need habits. Values is the thing that is the unattainable thing. A good mother, that's a value. There's not one thing that you can do to be a good mother, but when you're onto the ancestors, somebody can say, "Alison was a good mother." Same thing with running. Then you need goals. What are the things you're going to do? Then what are the habits that's going to help you along to make sure that you get to your goals?

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Brandon from Newark. Hi, Brandon. Thank you so much for calling in.

Brandon: Hey, how are you?

Martinus Evans: What's up, Brandon?

Brandon: Hey, what's going on? I just wanted to call, and say as a Slow AF runner, how much I appreciated the work that you're doing and the program. I've ran my entire life, and I've always been the slowest, or one of the slowest. My mile times aren't great, but I've found a lot of joy in running. I'm a new father. With the birth of my son, I recently found out that sickle cell trait runs in my family. I have it. My son has it. It contributes to that windedness that we feel. I've always still ran regularly, but never really found a space or a group that really embraces those of us who might not be running at the same pace as professional runners, or those who have a lot of aerobic ability. Just wanted to say how much I appreciated this program, the work that you're doing, and can't wait to see Slow AF branch into groups that I could join.

Martinus Evans: Thank you, Brandon.

Alison Stewart: Brandon, thank you so much for calling in. Let's say we've got people excited. They're thinking they want to start. What's step one?

Martinus Evans: Step one, buy my book. No. Step one--

Alison Stewart: That's okay.

Martinus Evans: [laughs] Step one, if you want to start running, you don't know where to begin. Go outside and run for 15 seconds, and then walk for a minute. At that 15 seconds, you can gauge, whoa, that was a lot. That's a lot. Let's take it back. Let's walk for a little bit longer. If you're like, "Yo, I can definitely do more," do 30 seconds. Run for 30 seconds, walk for a minute, repeat for 30 minutes. Do that for three times a week, and then add on a little bit more time, maybe 10 to 15 seconds to that run every week or so.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Peter from Staten Island. I think he's going to build on what you were talking about. Hi, Peter. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Peter: Hi, Alison. Yes, I've been listening with considerable interest to the conversation. As I told the screener, I was a Division 3 cross country coach for 10 years, and I'm also a former marathoner, and I completely buy into what your guest is saying about Slow AF. Matter of fact, there's a club on Staten Island called the Tortoise Running Club that their motto is start slow and taper off from there. As I told the screener, there are a couple of things. I mean, intervals like 30 run, 90 walk kind of a thing are terrific. You can vary that according to ability and interest in improving.

The other thing, too, and this is probably tricky in New York City, I guess, but if you have access to a park or any other non-paved surface as a novice, you'll do yourself a huge amount of favor, because sidewalks-- I'm sure your guest knows that sidewalks are the worst. They're concrete. They beat the daylights, adding lights and asphalt of the streets. That's better. Then you have traffic, and you also have the crown of the road, which also adversely impacts your joints. If you can get out and-- My advantage of course in coaching was that we had Central Park pretty much at our back door. Running the trails of Central Park was a liberating experience for--

Alison Stewart: Oh, lost Peter. Peter, thank you for calling in. My guest is Martinus Evans. The name of the book is Slow AF Run Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run.

Two part question. Let's say you're somebody who's bigger bodied. Let's say you're a person of color in a predominantly white neighborhood. Let's say you are thinking, "I don't want to deal with people saying stuff to me while I'm out running. I don't really want to deal with the comments." What advice would you give to someone who does have some fear or is a sensitive person? People can be really insensitive and bad.

Martinus Evans: People can be really insensitive and bad. The first thing is that somebody else's opinion of you is none of your business. If it don't apply, let it fly. The second thing is delusional self-belief. Now, this is the notion that you believe in yourself so much that everyone else around you think you're delusional. That's okay, because you want to make sure that you will your way to your goals. Those are two things that I got.

Alison Stewart: What about the inner critic?

Martinus Evans: The inner critic--

Alison Stewart: The person who's booing you from inside.

Martinus Evans: The inner critic. This is my favorite part. I have an inner critic as well. His name is Otis. One of the things we all should do is to give our inner critic a persona, a life story, a backstory. My inner critic, his name is Otis. He's a drunk uncle that says just all types of random things.

I remember growing up and having a drunk uncle and being like, "Go sit in that corner, uncle." He'd be like, "You know what, nephew? You're right." The same thing with that inner critic. If you give it a persona, give it a voice. Otis has this raspy old voice. Say those things that that person would say to you, and you'll see how ridiculous some of those things are.

Alison Stewart: Robin's calling in from West Harlem. Hey Robin, thanks for calling All Of It.

Robin: Yes, thank you. Listen, I was a runner for years, and I've stopped because of some hip issues and whatnot, and I really miss it. Then I was thinking, "Yes, you're a little old now. This is something for young people," but I'm listening to you and I'm like, "F that. [unintelligible 00:20:45] for young people. It's for any people." I used to be very competitive, and then I'm like, "I'm going to be so much slower per mile, and yes. So what?"

I want to thank you for giving me inspiration to get myself out the door, and I love the 15 seconds on and off, and then 30 seconds on and off, just to reacquaint myself and find out, okay, what does the hip let me do? It's going to let me do something, so I'm going to learn what it's going to let me do, and you're just totally inspiring me, so thank you.

Martinus Evans: Thank you. Running is all about an exploration of your body. Definitely explore, see what is out there. My message is all about empowering people to really tune back in with their bodies.

Alison Stewart: What are common missteps or mistakes that people can make? They don't mean to make them, but they make them and then it can sometimes damper their enthusiasm.

Martinus Evans: Terrible tools. Most new runners or even re-beginners, they do too much too soon too fast. They run too fast, they mileage is too much, or they do both of them too soon before their bodies can actually acclimate to the pounding of the road, and that's the first trip to [unintelligible 00:22:02].

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Brian from the Upper West Side. Hi, Brian. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Brian: Hi, guys. Alison, I met you the other night after Natalie Merchant. Just wanted to say hi. I don't know if you remember me, but I met you that night.

Alison Stewart: I remember you. I think you hugged me.

Brian: I did. You're one of my favorite people I listen to every day.

Alison Stewart: Thanks, Brian.

Brian: That was weird. I'm sorry. I feel so weird about that. Anyway, I love running, and I love this conversation. I have to say, you were talking about a critic, I dated one years and years ago. I say I'm a runner. I go for runs all the time, and my boyfriend at that time would say, no, you're going for a jog. You don't run, I run. You're too slow. You only jog. We fought about that forever and ever, and I dumped him. Thank, God. He deserves to be left in the dust.

Martinus Evans: You deserve better.

Brian: I left him in the dust. I run the New York City Marathon in 4 hours, 15 minutes, and 37 seconds, and I love it. One other thing I want to say, I learned this years ago. I don't know if this is scientifically correct, but if you can maintain a conversation at a pace, that's your pace. If you are huffing and puffing and you can't talk, you may want to slow down. I heard that years ago. I don't know if that works, but anyway.

Martinus Evans: Yes. That's the notion of a conversation pace. We'd like to spice that up a little bit, and we call it the sexy pace.

Alison Stewart: Oh, all right. Wow. Tell me.

Martinus Evans: The sexy pace, conversation pace is the pace in which me and you are having the same conversation and you're able to run. I call it sexy pace because when I started running, I thought about that Baywatch song in my head when I started to run, and it was always running in slow motion. That's why I became sexy pace.

Alison Stewart: Oh my goodness. Someone wants to applaud you for Mr. Evans's very conscientious gentle, no-BS approach humor and excellent radio presence. He really knows how to listen and talk with callers.

Martinus Evans: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Steven from Airmont. Hey, Steven, thanks for calling All Of It.

Steven: Oh, Alison, you are a gem, and I didn't hug you at Natalie Merchant. Martinus, I have a question for you. First of all, I want to what the running coach said about the difference between concrete and asphalt. I want to make it a little bit more scientific, but it's easy. The formula is density equals mass over volume. The density of concrete is, I think, not less than 10 times what it is of asphalt. If you can avoid running on concrete, you should. That's number one.

My second question is, do you listen to music when you are running? Because I cannot, for two reasons.

Alison Stewart: Interesting.

Steven: First of all, getting in touch with the whole rhythm of my everything, and the music is, it's too distracting. I learned this years ago. It was way too distracting, plus the things in my ears and the sweat were not compatible.

Alison Stewart: That's hilarious. How do you feel? Where do you come down on music?

Martinus Evans: I'm all over the place. I listen to music sometimes, I listen to audiobooks, I listen to podcasts, or sometimes I just ride naked, meaning no watch, no earpods, no nothing.

Alison Stewart: When you first started, how were you feeling? Those very first runs you did.

Martinus Evans: I almost said a bad word, [laughs] because that's how I felt. We got a few seconds to tell you my first run?

Alison Stewart: Absolutely. Yes, please.

Martinus Evans: My first run, I stepped on this treadmill and I was inconveniently sandwiched between two gazelles. One guy was going 10, the other guy was going 9. I thought to myself, okay, these guys are going to speed, I can at least go 7. When I got on the treadmill, my body flashed before my eyes, and I fell off the treadmill. The sound my body made when it hit that ground was [unintelligible 00:26:25]. You can laugh. It's okay.

Alison Stewart: I'm not laughing. I'm literally like, "Oh." I was feeling for you more than laugh.

Martinus Evans: I hit the ground, these gazelles stop and look at me, I make this loud thud in the fitness center, and as I'm mortified, I grab everything and I get out the door. I look back at the treadmill and it was 15 seconds that I was on the treadmill.

Alison Stewart: Thank you for sharing that. Oh my, I'm sorry. I just feel so bad in that moment. Here's somebody text says, relevant to the Slow AF Run Club segment, I've been a runner for 10 years, fairly serious. I'm female. Running comes up occasionally in conversation. Every once in a while, someone will question me and then say vaguely condescending, oh, you jog. Most often times, these people are male. When this happened, when I was in the middle of marathon training, I looked up the difference between running and jogging, and most sources agree, was jogging was slower than a 10-minute mile. This happens to be right between the average speed for men versus women. Very interesting.

Martinus Evans: Very interesting. However, Merriam-Webster says the definition of run is to move faster than a walk.

Alison Stewart: There you go. Boom boom for both of you. We're going to run out of time in a minute, but I do love that you not only told us about Otis and negative talk, you also say there's a chafe monster out there. What are some necessary defenses against the chafe monster? I think we can all figure out what that's about.

Martinus Evans: Yes, cotton is your worst enemy when it comes to exercise. Leave that stuff at home. Don't wear it unless you really want to see the chafe monster. Its last thing, body glide or lubes or things of that sort that you can lube up in your bodies on your bits and parts that rub a lot will also help prevent the chafe monster as well.

Alison Stewart: If somebody's inspired, how can they get involved with you, with Slow Af, follow you on Instagram? What's the best way to get engaged?

Martinus Evans: Absolutely. You can follow me on Instagram and Facebook at 300 Pounds and Running. That's three zero zero, spell out pounds, and running. If you want to know more about the Slow AF Run Club, you can go to slowafrunclub.com, or download the app on iOS and Android at Slow AF Run Club.

Alison Stewart: I know you've been doing quite a bit of press, people are really into this. As you can see, our callers, we're totally digging this segment, is there something that you haven't gotten to say about this that you really want to say or you think is important that just maybe people haven't asked you or it's come up as you're doing press?

Martinus Evans: I think the larger message is that people are always like, if you're not trying to lose weight, aren't you promoting obesity? My answer to this thing is that I'm not promoting obesity. I'm promoting that everybody becomes physically active in the body that they have right now, and they all should love themselves, and that cannot be packaged in a pill or a powder.

Alison Stewart: The book is called Slow AF Run Club: The Ultimate Guide for Anyone Who Wants to Run. My guest has been Martinus Evans. Martinus, thanks for coming in.

Martinus Evans: Thank you for having me.

 

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