[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Today, we're starting a new series about the 25th anniversary of albums released in 1998, which was a stellar year. We're calling it Silver Liner Notes. 25 years ago this month, on January 27th, a new kind of country act made its major label debut with an album titled Wide Open Spaces. At the time, the trio called themselves the Dixie Chicks.

[music]

Many precede and many will follow

A young girl's dream no longer hollow

It takes the shape of a place out west

But what it holds for her, she hasn't yet guessed

She needs wide open spaces

Room to make her big mistakes

She needs new faces

She knows the high stakes

She traveled this road as a child

Alison Stewart: Wide Open Spaces went to number one on the country album charts and earned the trio a Grammy for Best Country Album. According to an article in The Guardian, it sold more copies that year than every other country act combined. Besides a powerhouse voice in Natalie Maines, the rest of the trio made up of sisters Martie Maguire and Emily Strayer also got noticed for the fact that they played their own instruments. In the years after Wide Open Spaces, the band's music got more political.

They famously criticized President George Bush and the Iraq War, and ran afoul of the country radio establishment. They returned after a 14-year hiatus in 2020 with a new album and a new name, The Chicks, and they continue to perform. Joining me now for an installment of our 1998 album review series, Silver Liner Notes, is Marissa Moss, author of the book Her Country: How the Women of Country Music Became the Successes They Were Never Supposed to Be, and her forthcoming book, What She Needs is a Good Defense. Marissa, welcome back.

Marissa Moss: Hi. Thanks for having me again.

Alison Stewart: This was an album that really introduced the Dixie Chicks to the masses. What was different about the Dixie Chicks, we'll call them Dixie Chicks for this segment, from what was going on in country and pop, especially with women in country?

Marissa Moss: As you mentioned introducing the band, one of the big differences was that they not only played their own instruments and they played them expertly well, they also played traditional country instruments. At the time, you had this big transition from country music into the pop space, and the Chicks came out meanwhile playing fiddle, playing banjo, playing Dobro, playing acoustic guitar, and bringing that into this major label debut that was really grounded in country, and yet really appealed across the spectrum.

We talk a lot about the Chicks, or the Dixie Chicks then, transitioning to being these rebels in country music, but they were actually rebels then, just for the sheer fact that they played their own instruments and they played country instruments and singing country music, even very country sounding music. They also were really steadfast in what kind of songwriters they sought out and what kind of songs they wanted to cut. Nashville standard is go with the songwriters that everybody knows, the approved Nashville songwriters. They went for people really outside of the Nashville universe and plucked these people from different worlds. That was unheard of at the time and really set a mould for different ways country artists could think about the songs that they're going to cut.

Alison Stewart: Even though it was considered their debut album, it was their major label debut, we should say, they had several albums before. Why does it make sense to think of this as a debut in the broader sense or a turning point for the band? Was it about their commercial appeal at this point?

Marissa Moss: Yes. It was also about them being the Chicks, the Dixie Chicks as we now know it. When the Chicks started in Texas, it was actually a different band with two different founding members. This album was the album that Natalie Maines, the lead singer, came into the band. Not only was it their major label debut, it was the debut of the Chicks as we now know it, with Natalie Maines up front, with her father Lloyd Maines playing on the record, who was a really respected Texas musician at the time, and now just a legendary figure in the country music world. This was the Chicks stepping in as the band that we now know. While it wasn't their first record, it being their first major label debut, it was also stepping out as the band they had morphed into.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. Are you a Chicks' fan? Have you ever seen the Dixie Chicks or The Chicks in concert? What do you remember about this album when it came out? Call in and tell us about your experiences, 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Looking for Dixie Chicks or Chicks fans. You can also reach out on social media to us at All Of It WNYC. My guest is Marissa Moss, author of Her Country: How the Women of Country Music Became the Successes They Were Never Supposed to Be. We are talking about the 25th anniversary of the Dixie Chicks debut album, Wide Open Spaces, released January 27th, 1998. You mentioned Natalie Maines. What made her such a compelling voice at that time?

Marissa Moss: All of the Chicks are from Texas, but Natalie Maines had this different route to country music stardom. She went to Berklee School of Music in Boston. She was a real student of the craft and came into the band that way, having studied music. Maybe thought she was going to try a different way even outside of country music. She was known for taking no BS, having a really strong opinion, and being really grounded in her musicality, in her taste for what the band wanted to cut, and where and how the band would appear. Which is something that if we talked about, if it were a man in a country band or any kind of a band, wouldn't really be much of a talking point.

When we're talking about a woman, especially a woman in country music, that kind of thing stands out for better or worse. I would, obviously, say worse. That steadfast dedication to who she is and who the band is, is certainly what helped them succeed, and along the way, one of the things that I think really rubbed Nashville the wrong way. You don't want to have too many opinions if you're a woman in country music.

Alison Stewart: If you're a lady in country music, no opinions. We'll talk more about that in a minute. Let's listen to I Can Love You Better. It's the album's intro track. It was the lead singled release in October of 1997.

[music]

She's got you wrapped up in her satin and lace

Tied around her little finger

She's got you thinkin' you can never escape

Don't you know your heart's in danger

There's a devil in that angel face

If you could only see the love that you're wastin'

I can love you better than that

I know how to make you forget her

All I'm askin' is for one little chance

'Cause baby I can love you, baby I can love you better

Alison Stewart: That's Dixie Chicks, I Can Love You Better. Let's take some calls, Marissa. Let's talk to Morgan on line one calling in from Maplewood, New Jersey. Hi, Morgan.

Morgan: Hi. I first heard this album when I was about 10 years old. It was a hard year for me. My mom was in rehab. It was just me and my dad. My next door neighbors introduced me to this album and we would spend hours driving around together just listening to it. It just made me feel so a part of something. Even now, I still know every single word to this album. It will always be my favorite Dixie Chicks album. I was so happy to hear you guys talking about it today because I think this album deserves so much attention.

Alison Stewart: Morgan, thank you for calling in. Let's talk to Joel from New Canaan, Connecticut. Hi, Joel. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Joel: Yes, you bet. This was an interesting thing to have this come up. I heard the Dixie Chicks in Albany, Oregon, Central Willamette Valley on the concert. It was right on the river and it's when the Dixie Chicks were really coming up in the world that they booked this. They filled up this entire venue that it has for music that's right on the river, beautiful. I always-- didn't know them at the time. Got to listen to them. Unbelievably musically talented as well as vocal talents. I followed them, their career. Then, there comes George W. for his insane starting of a war. We've heard about people starting wars in Iraq. They took them on. Coming from Texas, that's really saying something. We know what Texas politics looks like today.

Alison Stewart: For sure. Joel, thanks for calling in. Let's talk to Gabriel in Georgia. Hey, Gabriel, you call back in. Nice to talk to you again.

Gabriel: Alison, always a pleasure. You make my morning exactly what they are and my afternoons, honestly.

Alison Stewart: Thanks, man.

Gabriel: I remember when I was growing up in New York. It was when I was in middle school, the Dixie Chicks came out. We thought that they were corny because they represented country culture, that kind of stuff, Hee Haw American flavors. I'd be interested to hear more about what your guest has to say about then what happened just a few years later. When I was in high school in New York, we thought they were cool because they spoke out against then President George W. Bush when they were overseas. It was like this whole thing. The right wing establishment took them down somehow politically and also within the country status quo, it would seem.

They lost their careers for a while. Totally not cool, but I'm happy to say that later in life I've embraced country music. I love country music and I play it and I respect so much their musicianship, especially with the landscape of what pop country has turned into, and its embracing of non-traditional instruments and that sort of thing. Also, can we talk about why they changed their name to just The Chicks as well?

Alison Stewart: Yes. We're going to. Stand by, Gabriel. Thank you. Gabriel is bringing up all the things. Let's start with that. When the Dixie Chicks were in London, it was Natalie Maines, I believe, who spoke out on stage and said they were embarrassed to be from Texas because of the war in Iraq. Marissa, can you put in context of what that did to their career and how important country radio is because I think the country radio programmers really flexed their muscles around this.

Marissa Moss: I relate to your story because I too grew up in New York City and I think I'm a little bit older, but I saw the Chicks change the perception of country music to so many people around me in New York City. It's really interesting to hear you say that, and so glad you've come around to country music. At the time the Chicks were on top of the country world. On top of the country world and country music, as you said, means being successful on country radio. It did then. It still does now. I know that seems crazy because in almost every other genre of music, it's Spotify, it's streaming, it's TikTok, it's all those things.

In country music, it's number one element to mainstream traditional success is radio. It just still is, still holding on and those country radio programmers hold so much power. When Natalie Maines made that comment on stage and word creeped to back to the states-- This was before Twitter, so it took a little time to get on message boards and that kind of thing. The degree to which they were able to be exiled was so shockingly fast. It just seems unbelievable. They fell all the way down to the 40s in a week like nothing. This was the biggest band in country music, one of the biggest bands in the world at the time.

Country radio could just drop it in a second because it was afraid of its listeners. It still operates that way. This was obviously an extreme case where they were taking Dixie Chicks albums and running over them with tractors and burning the CDs and all those kinds of things. It was really shockingly instantaneous. They never recovered in that same way. They obviously have gone on to have an incredible career on their own terms, but they've never been accepted back into the country radio fold. That really puts a limit on the kind of success and audience you can reach.

They certainly did not deserve that. There was certainly a bubbling distrust and dislike, I think, for the band even before that contributed to it. That's something I talk about in my book, is that they were outspoken women before that moment. I do think that country music and country radio really seized on that as an opportunity to say, "Okay, we're finally done with this. It's too much, it's too loud, it's too opinionated and now we have this great reason to do it."

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Stephanie from Brooklyn. Hey Stephanie, thanks for calling all of it.

Stephanie: Hey Alison, thanks so much for taking my call. I just moved to Austin when this album came out and I would've said that I was not someone who liked country music, but that album became just such a touchstone for that part of my life. Then, I was a fan of the Chicks the whole time. I think I'm one of those people who-- they call Austin the blueberry in the tomato soup, and I became a bigger fan the louder they got and the more outspoken they got. Then, I want to give a nod to-- you talked about them introducing different songwriters, and I love that they introduced Patty Griffin to the world because I think she's amazing.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling in, Stephanie. I do want to play a song from the album that is credited to band members Emily Strayer and Martie MaGuire. Let's take a listen. This is You were mine.

[music]

I can't find a reason to let go,

Even though you found a new love

And she's what your dreams made of

I can find a reason to hang on

What went wrong can be forgiven

Without you, it ain't worth livin' alone

Sometimes I wake up cryin' at night

And sometimes I scream out your name

Alison Stewart: Marissa, if you go see the Dixie Chicks at their new Las Vegas residency, they're The Chicks. The name change. What do you make of the name change? It happened in 2020 after the awakening, reawakening for some people, first time for some people, of structural racism in this country. What did you make of it when they changed their name to the Chicks and dropped the Dixie?

Marissa Moss: I thought it was perfect. I thought it was amazing and it felt really natural. For one, anyone that gets all worked up about it, well, there's a lot of problematic reasons someone might get all worked up about it, but to their fans they've been known as The Chicks for a very long time anyway. It's not asking people to make a huge leap. It is asking people to confront the history of the word Dixie. I realize that that could make people uncomfortable, but necessarily so. I think it was just perfectly in line with their legacy and the way that they've directed country music to confront its original sin.

Even though they're not really part of country music anymore, I guess you could say they are still one of the most influential acts on country music. I imagine they knew that by making this change and by being one of the first in country music to openly confront the mistakes that they've made, I think was a real leadership moment in terms of forcing other country artists to do the same, because deep down, even if you're angry at them on Twitter or whatever, I think everyone goes home and listens to The Chicks, from all different political backgrounds.

This one was obviously beyond politics, but I think it was really an important move that had impactful ramifications across country music. If they weren't going to change and reckon with this word, maybe no one else would. They had to come out there and do it. I'm really glad they did. I don't have any problems saying The Chicks. It's fine. I'm used to it now and it's the way it always should have been. It's the way that most of us knew them for a really long time anyway. It's really fine.

Alison Stewart: It is the 25th anniversary of Wide Open Spaces from The Chicks. My guest has been Marissa Moss. Marissa, thank you so much for being with us.

Marissa Moss: Thanks so much. This was great.

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