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Brigid Bergin: This is All Of It on WNYC I'm Brigid Bergin in for Alison Stewart. Hetty Lui McKinnon is a recipe developer and food writer. Her latest cookbook is called Tenderheart: A Cookbook About Vegetables and Unbreakable Family Bonds. Part love letter to vegetables, part memoir, Tenderheart takes us through recipes for 24 of Hetty's favorite vegetables from Asian greens through zucchini. Throughout we also learn the story of her family. How her parents emigrated from China to Sydney and how Hetty first fell in love with fruits and vegetables when her father would bring crates of them home from his job at a market.

Hetty also writes the To Vegetables, With Love, substack newsletter and The Plant Powered newsletter for The Washington Post. Her writing and recipes appear in The New York Times' Bon Appetit, Epicurious, and On The Food52 website, among other places. Hetty Lui McKinnon, welcome to WNYC and welcome to All Of It.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Good afternoon, Brigid. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

Brigid Bergin: This is going to be so much fun. Listeners, if you have a question about cooking vegetables, give us a call. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC, you can also text us at that number. Do you have questions about something you've seen at the farmers market and you're not exactly sure how to prepare it? Or maybe you've been growing zucchini and have approximately 10 million of them right about now and you need some recipes, give us a call. The number is 212-433-9692. Again, you can also text at that number.

Hetty, let's talk a little bit about the background for your story. The title is Tenderheart. Tell us about the family bonds in this book and why you're writing about them now.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: I am actually a vegetarian and that's something that a lot of people don't know about me. I've been a vegetarian for 30 years. From much of that, I just grew up eating a lot of vegetables and having a career writing about vegetarian food, I really felt like it was my rite of passage to write a book about vegetables. I wanted it to be super fun and a real celebration of mother nature's bounty. When I started working on this book, this backstory became very prevalent and that was my vegetable origin story.

Why did I love vegetables? Why do I feel this intense devotion towards sharing the joy that I find in them? It unlocked a lot of memories about my dad who worked at the produce markets in Sydney. He was actually a [unintelligible 00:02:56] banana manger and traded in bananas in the wholesale game. He brought home just the most beautiful, bountiful vegetables and fruits right on the cusp of seasonality, even before they've gotten into the hands of customers. We were very, very spoiled as young people growing up in Sydney.

It's an influence that I didn't really understand, actually, until I started working on this book. My previous book was all about my mom and learning to cook Asian food and Cantonese food through my mom. She's the one I thought was my biggest influence in the kitchen and through Tenderheart I've allowed myself to remember my dad's influence on me. It's unlocked a beautiful set of memories, which I've shared in the book.

Brigid Bergin: Part of what you share in the story is that you lost your father at a pretty young age. Those memories are, some of them very early memories. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Memories fade, and that was something as I've gotten older, I realized they were fading and you lose the memory of someone's voice and their mannerisms, things like that. For me, it wasn't as much of a preservation project, I've got three kids and they never met my dad and I really wanted to capture him in a way that they could remember. I think in allowing yourself to experience that grief, when you get further away from the act of losing someone, it does get easier. People say it gets easier and it just becomes a part of your life but also losing the memory is really hard.

Food for me is so evocative in so many ways. It really allows me to think about who I am and why I am the way I am and that can be a scary thing but it also can be a really joyous thing. Allowing myself to think about my father again and think about those memories and the joy that you can find in someone that you've lost a long time ago, that's a really beautiful thing and I'm very grateful for the experience.

Brigid Bergin: You touched on this, but some of your previous cookbooks have titles like Community, Neighborhood, Family and To Asia, With Love, and then, of course, we have Tenderheart. It feels like a real theme of connection.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: It is.

Brigid Bergin: Can you tell us how these fit together?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: It is, connection is absolutely correct. It is the through line that runs through all my books, all my work, all the work that I do outside of books. Even in my newsletter, community is-- I started off delivering salads, actually in Sydney, on my bike, vegetarian salads, vegetable-based salads. It was through that business that I really discovered the power of food to bring people together, people from disparate backgrounds, from very different walks of life. Just the connection that you can find over a meal, a salad box, in this case now a recipe or a book, that is a driving force in all the work I do.

It's all about community and connection and finding commonalities.

Brigid Bergin: We talked yesterday on the show about how music fits into how people find connections, particularly people from the diaspora, as part of a series on WNYC's show Notes from America. For you, how does food fit into your family's diaspora?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: For me, it's the way I even understand my identity as a Chinese Australian who now lives in New York, food is my way of making sense of all those different identities and bringing it all together on a plate. I often say, I've been in food for about 10 years, a decade, slightly longer and I always say that, if it wasn't for coming into the food industry, I don't know if I'd really understand all the different parts of my identity. My parents were immigrants to Sydney. On the one hand, my dad was very into Western culture but my mum held on to tradition very, very tightly.

I was very much caught in the middle of that Chinese diaspora in Australia, of feeling very Chinese at home but going to school and needing to be Australian. I always felt caught in the middle of that and that's very much what To Asia, With Love is about, it's about actually accepting that as two parts of my identity and bringing them and merging them into one on the plate. Food has allowed me to really touch on all those different parts and accept. Self-acceptance is a huge thing and it's something that I think I've only really come to in the last few years, as I've been working in food.

Brigid Bergin: Can you tell us about a time when you were maybe walking around this city and you saw an ingredient that immediately reminded you of home?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Oh, wow. I think Chinatown in New York has become such a happy place because what I realized about Chinatown is it doesn't really matter which town you're in. It is a very similar feeling, the noises you hear, the smells, just the fresh produce on the streets. All of that is very much a feeling of home for me. New York's Chinatown has become a very important place to me in my heart, even though I've only been here for eight, nine years, I'm almost a New Yorker, I have to reach 10 years.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, I am speaking with Hetty Lui McKinnon on WNYC's All Of It. I'm Brigid Bergin filling in for Alison Stewart and we're talking about cooking vegetables. Have you been to the farmers market recently and seen some of this amazing summer produce, thought, "Wow, it looks really good, it smells really good but I don't know what to do with it"? I am telling you right now that Hetty Lui McKinnon will tell you what you can do with that amazing produce. Give us a call at 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC.

You can also text us, call with your questions about her story, about cooking vegetables. Now we're going to dive into this amazing new cookbook Tenderheart. The book is organized over around two dozen different vegetables, as I mentioned Asian greens to zucchini. How did you determine which veggie got its own chapter and why did some of the ones you might think of, maybe say like garlic onions, those really common used vegetables, why didn't they get their own?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: To answer your first question about how those vegetables came to me, they just came. I picked up a pen, a piece of paper. These were the ones that felt really natural to me. These are the ones I turned to a lot. A lot of this book was conceived and thought about during COVID and during the pandemic, so they are the ones that you have access to a lot of the time. A lot of this book is about really taking away the stigma of actually shopping from your supermarket. Right now we're in the middle of summer in New York, so it's beautiful and resplendent at the markets.

We're very lucky to have access to farm produce in the city but at other times of the year, I want people to eat vegetables in the fall and in the winter too. It's like if you can access any type of vegetables, you can cook the recipes in this book. There's a very accessible-- Economy was also a big factor, like cabbage. There's so many ways to cook a cabbage and I learned that during the pandemic and I was very excited to share all the different ways you could even cook one cabbage. Economy, I think right now is a big factor in the vegetables that I chose.

In terms of the ones that don't get their own chapter, I think I talk about garlic and onions and alliums because they are so prevalent in every single one of my recipes. All my savory recipes will have an allium in there because they are a cornerstone of vegetarian cooking in terms of adding flavor and aroma and fragrance, so that's why I didn't use those. There are actual vegetables like corn, corn doesn't get a chapter. I actually don't know why. It just feels so seasonal in a way that I don't know why corn didn't get a chapter, but I do share a lot--

Brigid Bergin: Corn is in the book in some of your recipes.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: It is. There's a wonderful corn and zucchini recipe, which everybody should be cooking right now. It has a basil Caesarish dressing and it's like the salad of summer.

Brigid Bergin: It sounds delicious, but now I have to go back because you've teased me with your cabbage recipes. What is your favorite way to prepare cabbage? Or one or two of the ways that you think people maybe haven't thought of it and probably should try.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Yes. Cabbage, I think, is such an underrated vegetable. It's one that everyone just sees at the supermarket and just thinks, "Oh, well, it's boring." Or it's one of those vegetables that people don't think about very often, but during the pandemic, I would buy a whole cabbage and I was trying to think of all the ways I could use that cabbage in different ways. I would use half, you can cut those into wedges and just pan-fry them until they're nice and burnished and golden. The golden on vegetables is flavor.

Those crispy edges, that charring, that's flavor. Then I would create a little stew around that or add coconut milk. In the book, I've added tomatoes and coconut milk with lentils, so it's very hearty. Then you can also have a quarter of it. You can use raw and when you use a raw cabbage, it creates a lot of volume because you're not really cooking it down. It's a very economical dish and you can add that to say noodles. Then I would use the other quarter because we're left with a quarter now. It's our math, the math of cabbage, and you can stir-fry that.

There's a recipe in the book that I stir-fried with mung bean vermicelli, which is a glass noodle. It's got a ketchupy vinegary sauce. It's very, very good. There's so many ways you can use cabbage.

Brigid Bergin: It sounds almost like a comfort food.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: It is. For me, vegetables are comfort food. I think people need to think about vegetables in a much more flexible and versatile way and don't be afraid of adding it with carbs if you need to. There's a lot of comfort to be found in vegetables.

Brigid Bergin: I want to go to one of our callers, Teresa in Sparta, New Jersey. Teresa, thanks for calling All Of It.

Teresa: Hi, how are you?

Brigid Bergin: Great.

Teresa: I have a question about fiddlehead fern.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Oh, there is no fiddlehead fern chapter, unfortunately.

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Teresa: If you can help, because I've never made them before. I've seen them in the store and I was like, "They look really cool. I'm going to try to make them." I followed a recipe. Everyone said they tasted delicious, and then a couple of hours later, everyone was burping uncontrollably. [laughs]

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Oh, really?

Teresa: The thing is we're a vegetarian family, so it's not as if we're unused to-- I'm wondering, did I make them wrong? Do the fiddlehead ferns always do that? Is there another way to prepare them? Thank you for your help.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Teresa, how did you prepare them? Did you pan-fry them or roast them?

Teresa: I sautéed them with a little bit of garlic, olive oil, salt, and pepper.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Was there anything with it?

Teresa: No, that was it.

Brigid Bergin: No? Okay.

Teresa: I just sautéed them with that and it was just bizarre. [laughs]

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Bizarre. I don't actually cook a lot with fiddlehead ferns because they are so seasonal and they're one of those vegetables that are at the market and then they're one day and gone the next but I don't really know about it producing flatulence, actually. Maybe someone could call in and let us know.

Brigid Bergin: Teresa, I'm sorry for your dinner guests, but it sounds like hopefully it tasted good before the after-effects. Thank you for calling. We're going to talk about some more vegetables. We have a text actually, a question about how to cook eggplant. How do you sauté it without it soaking up so much oil? I've read that if you soak it in cold water and dry it before cooking, it won't soak up so much oil but that hasn't been my experience. That text came from Skylar.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Yes, a lot of people do ask about eggplant. People have had varying degrees of success. Now, I think I like to pan-fry eggplant. It's very effective. Cut it so it's not so thin and pan-fried on both sides. I actually don't use a lot of oil, just a little bit, a tablespoon in a fry pan, get it nice and hot because heat, also cooking techniques, having your pan really hot is going to stop the oil from-- When you add vegetables to a cold pan, the oil is going to soak up a lot faster. Get your pan nice and hot.

A little bit of oil will do and add your eggplant slices in there and char both sides. In my experience, that will give you a nice charred exterior, but the inside will stay quite fleshy and quite firm. Yes, I think just don't put a lot of oil in there. It's not needed.

Brigid Bergin: I am speaking with Hetty Lui McKinnon, the food writer and recipe creator, about her new vegetarian cookbook, Tenderheart. You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin in for Alison Stewart. We have to take a short break. More with your calls coming up just after this.

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Brigid Bergin: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin in for Alison Stewart. We are talking vegetarian cooking with Hetty Lui McKinnon, author of Tenderheart, a beautiful, I have to say beautiful new cookbook that's just out. It is a heavy cookbook as well.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: It is a heavy cookbook. [laughs]

Brigid Bergin: A lot of great recipes in here. Hetty, is there one that you think is the most versatile recipe in Tenderheart?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Oh, there are so many. Right now, I would say there's a fantastic soy-pickled tomato recipe with cold tofu. It's no cook, and you use a silken tofu and we do a quick pickle with farmers market tomatoes, with soy sauce, a little bit of vinegar. I use black vinegar in the book, but you can use any vinegar you have. Rice vinegar would also help. It's one of those recipes you would eat every day. You could add different things to it if you wanted to. You could add some legumes, some Kent, it's all about no cooking right now. Nobody wants to cook.

Brigid Bergin: You're teasing our next conversation. Thank you so much. [laughs] That sounds delicious. I want to bring in Miriam from Brooklyn who has a question that maybe you can answer. Miriam, welcome to All Of It on WNYC.

Miriam: Hi, Brigid. It's so nice to have you at the place of, what's her name? Ms. Stewart. Anyway, so here's my question. I was at the Chinatown Market under Manhattan Bridge and I saw this for two days now, these vegetables that look like a combination between a bamboo and a leek. I don't know what that is, but it's being sold like hot potatoes, like gold. I don't know what it is or how to-- That's my question number one, and number two, since I heard that you have kids, I don't know if they go to public school and ask if you are satisfied with what we serve in public schools in New York City. What's your opinion about that?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Hi there, Miriam. The first part of your question is I'm pretty sure it's a celtuce you're talking about. Is it green?

Miriam: Yes.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Yes. I'm pretty sure it's a celtuce. It has a body. It does look like a little bit of a bamboo. At the top, there's some leaves that poke out. The whole thing is edible. It's got quite a thick skin. You need to take that skin off. You can cut the inside into little dice and you just stir fry it or pan fry it. A very traditional way of using the celtuce stem is you cut it into matchsticks and you stir fry that. The leaves, you can use almost like lettuce. Stir-fried lettuce is a very traditional Chinese dish. You can stir-fry that. You can eat it as you would any other leaves.

Brigid Bergin: What's the flavor of the more matchstick, the meatier part of it?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: I would like to say it's similar to a broccoli stem.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, interesting.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Yes, and it has a similar texture too.

Brigid Bergin: Very interesting. Any views on food in New York City schools if you want?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Oh, city schools. That's a loaded question. [laughs]

Brigid Bergin: That's not the topic you were called in here for, but if you have anything you want to say.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: I do have three kids at public school in New York City and they don't eat school lunch.

Brigid Bergin: I think that says something about your view of the food, I'd say. I want to read another text that we got. On our small family farm, we raised several kinds of beans including green and yellow. All were tender, specially cooked. Today, the yellow beans I buy, I cooked to tenderness, but the string beans often stay very tough. How do I get them tender without overcooking?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: There is no green bean chapter in the book either.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, well.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Well, there we go, but they are used in the book. The string beans, it depends on if you-- I like a bit of salt in the boiling water because it just adds some flavor, but it also helps the string beans cook a little bit. I actually like my beans quite firm with a bit of crunch. It's really like watching them and making sure that they-- I go for color a little bit when they turn bright green. They're usually almost ready and taste, taste, taste. Taste your vegetables as you're cooking them. That's a big lesson.

Brigid Bergin: There's so much in the book and one of the things that I think is important is an infrastructure almost a piece of it is the idea of the pantry. You talk about how to make sure that you have a stock pantry so that you can cook all these different vegetable recipes. What are some of the go-to items that you suggest someone stock in their pantry and where would you get them?

Hetty Lui McKinnon: I think for me, tahini is a big ingredient, sesame paste. It is something that is so versatile in terms of vegetarian cooking and it adds that umami, it adds intensity and it's something that can be used in so many different ways. Particularly right now, you could just roast some vegetables or have a raw tomato and you can just drizzle tahini over and it makes it taste instantly very moreish. You want to go back for the next forkful. Other things that I use a lot in this book are kimchi.

That's something I started using a lot during the pandemic because during that time I was thinking of, what can I use that's going to add really fast flavor. Kimchi it's almost a complete flavor package. It's a bit sweet, it's savory, it's salty, it's spicy, it has that fermented, funky flavor and sometimes it's as simple as throwing a little bit of kimchi. It's not for right now but I have a torn lasagna recipe with some kimchi in it and it just adds that little bit of a flavor, like difference that makes you think.

I also advocate paste, like Thai curry paste because paste, basically, someone's done the work for you. They've cooked down the aromatics and the alliums and they've cooked it down and they've put it in a bottle. Basically, you get that out and there's a wonderful snow pea stir fry in Tenderheart and you basically just add curry paste, stir fry it. It tastes like something you've spent hours like chopping garlic and chopping lemongrass but it's all there in a jar. It's just getting smart about using those types of ingredients which are very, very available and very cheap at the supermarket.

Brigid Bergin: That is one of the many things that you can learn when you read this new cookbook food Tenderheart. A cookbook about vegetables and unbreakable family bonds. My guest has been Hetty Lui McKinnon. Hetty, thank you so much for being in studio with us and for all the great advice and recipes in this wonderful book.

Hetty Lui McKinnon: Thank you for having me. It's always a joy to talk to you and to talk about vegetables. [laughs]

Brigid Bergin: Absolutely.

 

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