Automated: Listener-supported WNYC Studios.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on-demand, I'm grateful you're here. I'm grateful to be back on the air and in one peace minus one kidney which is working quite well for my sister, by the way. Thanks to team All of It and WNYC for being so accommodating and thanks to all the WNYC hosts who kept the show going while I was out, Brigid Bergin, David Furst, Kousha Navidar, Kerry Nolan and Tiffany Hanssen. Thanks to all of you for your well wishes, your cards, comments, calls, texts, DMs, even the lady who said it wasn't going to be easy and no big deal. Ma'am, I agree to disagree.

On today's show, we'll talk about the value of a college education and take your calls about whether you choose to forego one and why. Novelist Lauren Groff has a new book out, and she joins me to discuss it titled The Vaster Wilds. It's spectacular, by the way. A New York photographer, Barbara Mensch has been visually chronicling her neighborhood for years.

She joins us to discuss her new book, A Falling-Off Place: The Transformation of Lower Manhattan full of photos pre, during and post 9/11. That is our plan. Let's get this started.

[music]

Alison Stewart: Having major surgery brought up a lot of issues to think about. Important things like how I had all this amazing treatment at Mass General yet so many people suffer because of how unfair and how broken our healthcare system is, how Oxy works really well as a pain med and how it's clear how easily people get sucked into its thrall, how work-life balance is something I should work on and then the subject that surprisingly occupied my thoughts every single day, lunch. When you host a live radio show from 12:00 to 2:00 every day, lunch usually means salad from home at your desk right before or after the show.

One of the unexpected pleasures of my recovery period was having the time to sample some of the great lunch spots the city has to offer. I wanted to share some of my favorites with all of you and help me share some of his favorite lunch places is Eater New York editor, Robert Sietsema. Robert welcome to the studio.

Robert Sietsema: Hey, Allison. Thank you so much for having me on.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. What are some of your favorite lunch spots around the city? Maybe you have a lunch hack you want us to know about, or a favorite food truck, or it's outside your office, or a cart, give us a call, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We want to hear about your favorite lunch spots. Big picture question, Robert. What are some of the things you look for in a lunch place?

Robert Sietsema: To begin with, lunch is the new dinner. Getting reservations, going out at night has gotten so complicated that it requires weeks of preparation whereas even at your favorite restaurants, you can just like walk right in oftentimes. They're glad to have you, the meal is cheaper, you have longer to digest before you go to sleep, and man, I'm just looking over this list you sent me and you went to some amazing places. You've been to places I haven't been at like Hotel Chelsea.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] Oh, that was spectacular. The new Hotel Chelsea if you want to feel fancy. Technically, it was breakfast but I went late enough that I considered it lunch. If you just want to feel like you've gone to a bygone era and have your delicious coffee out of a beautiful Chanel cup embossed with gold, Hotel Chelsea and all the art deco and the beautiful mirrors.

Robert Sietsema: Oh, wow.

Alison Stewart: I would suggest that one. I was telling you, off the air, one of the reasons lunch got to be a big deal is I was supposed to walk every day. My friends who were taking care of me, we made lunch the place we would walk to. Then as I got a little better, I could take the subway and then we could walk. There's a little bit of a progression here. A place that I went that had a ton of options was the Pier 57 new food hall. I tried out Lolo's Shack, which is Caribbean and coastal comfort food. The original location is up in Harlem. What's your take on the food halls?

Robert Sietsema: Food halls are a mixed bag. The best thing about a food hall is to discover a place that you love and then you can go there easily without bothering with the other places if it's not too crowded. The place you're talking about is run by the James Beard Foundation and has a lot of great stuff including Indian doses. I would say that's one of the best, but we also have that food court that does Singaporean food up in Midtown just north of Times Square. I think food halls are fine, but they're not a good deal really compared to eating in a restaurant, oddly enough.

Alison Stewart: Oh, that's interesting. Really, financially, it's not the way to go necessarily if you're watching your budget?

Robert Sietsema: No, they'll get $25 or $30 out of you if you get a main course and a beverage and you pay tax and then they spin that little thing around asking for a tip, and even though there's not really any service to speak of, but that's neither here nor there. Yes, I prefer the standalone restaurants or even carts. I see that you ran into Jamrock Jerk. One of my favorite places.

Alison Stewart: Oh.

Robert Sietsema: What an operation.

Alison Stewart: That is incredible. According to Jamrock Jerk, they say they are New York City's first legally permitted street cart equipped with grills and smokers necessary to produce the authentic Jamaican Jerk experience. I love the cart goes, it's Hudson Yards sometimes, it's on Astor Place. If you check their Instagram or their Facebook page, their jerk chicken was so delicious and spicy and it was a lot.

Robert Sietsema: It was not really that expensive. What is it like $16? I find it hilarious that they have like a point-of-purchase display and little monitors on cantilevered arms that come out and it's just like you're in a restaurant only there's no restaurant. That place moves around. You got to check online though to see where it is and I think there's more than one.

Alison Stewart: Also, that was lunch and then dinner. There was so much. The portions were really big in the best way.

Robert Sietsema: Yes. You get rice and peas and you get the stewed vegetables and as you point out, really, I think, half a chicken.

Alison Stewart: Easily, easily. Cindy from the West Village says, and I'm not sure I'm pronouncing this right, Revelie in Soho, across from Raoul's?

Robert Sietsema: That's the Raoul spin-off, and people are raving about that. I haven't been yet because my boss, Melissa McCart, went there already. We draw straws as to who goes where since you can't go to all of them at once. I see you liked 886 and of course, Via Carota which you could never hope to get into in the evening, but man, if you walk over there at two o'clock, there's empty tables.

Alison Stewart: It was pretty great. For people who don't know Via Carota, I believe we had the owners and the chefs on the show, they have their own cookbook now. It is an A-lister star, bold-faced named place in the evening, but during the lunch hour, you just feel like you're walking back like you're going to some small cafe in Italy.

Robert Sietsema: Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: It still got the sense of occasion about it. I sat at the bar with my friend, Scooter, and the bartender said, "Okay, friends, what would you like, friends?" [laughs]

Robert Sietsema: One of the secrets there is that the salad is so big that like four people could eat it, and that leaves you money to buy the bunny, the deep fried, the chicken fried rabbit which comes on a little piece of French toast, and is absolutely delicious. If you have never had rabbit before, it does taste just like chicken.

Alison Stewart: Again, brought home food. It was plenty, plenty of food. Hey, listeners, we want to hear from you. What's your favorite lunch spot? Maybe it's a food truck, maybe you go someplace on a special occasion since we've all decided lunch is the new dinner. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, you can call in and be on the air or you can text to us. Once I got into the subway, because I live in downtown Manhattan, and I went out to Greenpoint and it was a hot day.

Robert Sietsema: Tacos Ramirez.

Alison Stewart: Taco Ramirez.

Robert Sietsema: Oh my God.

Alison Stewart: I have gone by there many times and the line has been around the block, but it happened to be sort of a hot day, a little bit of an off time and there's not really much of a place to sit, although I did get to sit, but there are these amazing, they're so delicious, the tacos. Why, in your opinion, does one taco spot hit when there are so many others? What is it about a certain taco spot to make it really breakthrough?

Robert Sietsema: The people at Taco Ramirez, they're taco scholars. They have that contraption where the meat is in a little merry-go-round and it gets dragged through the oil for hours at a time. It's poached in oil, almost. They don't stint on the fillings and they pile those tacos high. The tortillas are homemade and they are absolutely astonishing. Yes, some of the best tacos in town, although this is a city filled with amazing tacos.

Alison Stewart: I liked the idea, it reminded me of college, that you stand in line to put on, whether your cilantro, your pico de gallo, it's a nice atmosphere. It's not precious. I was a little bit concerned with a long line and the hipster vibe of it that was going to be precious. It's the opposite. It's very authentic and very real.

Robert Sietsema: And participatory. As you point out, you really get to customize the taco any way you want.

Alison Stewart: We've got a text that says, "Outside Atlantic Terminal in front of the Apple Store is the amazing Cesar's Empanadas, homemade and very inexpensive to grab and go.

Robert Sietsema: Oh, never had that before. It sounds good. Also, outside of the bus depot in Jackson Heights, there's always a line of taco carts, and you can get just about all sorts of Ecuadorian carts and things like that. If you just get off of the E or any of those trains that stop there and just walk up Roosevelt Avenue, you will find a wealth of lunch places.

Alison Stewart: Someone else. Nick says, "Lunch spots, John Doe Kitchen on 5th at 28th Street and sister restaurant Jane Doe Lounge on 44th between 5th and 6th Aves are great. They sell $1 oysters." Nick, thanks for the tip. Before we leave Mexican food, you're recommending Electric Burrito?

Robert Sietsema: Oh, yes. There's going to be another branch of it somewhere but the one at the moment is on St. Mark's just off of 1st Avenue. It's a real California-style burrito, which means that they put french fries in it. They have breakfast burritos and they have lunch burritos, but it's absolutely great place. Once again, the burritos are so big. This is common to many of the lunch spots that you and I have listed that two people can eat one lunch, that the servings are so big. The Electric Burrito was like that, too.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Abdul from Harlem is calling in. Hi, Abdul. Thanks for calling All of It.

Abdul: Hi, how are you? Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Glad to have you on the air.

Abdul: I just wanted to plug il Buco Alimentari on Great Jones Street. It's just on top of being great food, they have a little store where they sell imported goods from Italy and it's open for lunch. The chef Justin Smiley's fantastic.

Alison Stewart: Abdul, how did you discover the lunch there?

Abdul: I actually used to work there a few years back, maybe five, six years ago, but it's still doing its thing, pizzas, paninis, pastas. They're known for their dinner in particular, but for lunch, it's really great to just walk by, and you'll get a seat.

Alison Stewart: Abdul, thanks for calling in. Let's talk to Judy from Brooklyn. Hi, Judy. Thanks for calling All of It with your favorite lunch spot.

Judy: Hi. In Brooklyn, Flatbush Avenue and Avenue R is China New Star, and Monday through Saturday they have a big lunch menu with soup, entree and dessert.

Alison Stewart: Judy, thank you.

Robert Sietsema: Sounds good.

Judy: Szechuan, Hunan and Cantonese.

Alison Stewart: Ooh, sounds good. Thank you for the tip. My guest is Robert Sietsema, New York editor at Eater New York. We are talking about great lunch spots. We'd like to hear from you. What are some of your favorite lunch spots around the city? Maybe you have a lunch hack you want to know about or a favorite food truck or cart, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on the air, or you can text to us. I had this moment when I was feeling like a Parisian housewife and I wanted to just pick up a few things to bring home because I wasn't feeling like eating out per se because some days which is like I just want to be home. I'm not sure I'm pronouncing this correctly, Fabrique Artisan Bakery.

Robert Sietsema: Oh, I love that place. That's actually Scandinavian, believe it or not. Even though they're putting on the French dog as they say.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] I did not know that. I just like the idea of you buy one thing at the market and you buy another thing in the market and then you put it in your bag and you take it home.

Robert Sietsema: Oh, yes.

Alison Stewart: The baguette was so delicious.

Robert Sietsema: They have little baguette sandwiches, too if you want to eat something right away. My wife's favorite thing there is this thing called Mr. Toast which is a sourdough loaf and they have a Mrs. Toast, too, who is whole wheat. You get it, and you can make your own sandwiches and go over to Chelsea Market and pick up some cold cuts from one of the butchers there.

Alison Stewart: You are recommending, and we're thinking about cosy experience by looking at this place's Instagram, it looks like it could be a lot of fun. Salty Lunch Lady's Little Luncheonette.

Robert Sietsema: Oh, God, yes.

Alison Stewart: This is in Ridgewood.

Robert Sietsema: This is in Ridgewood. Ridgewood is exploding with new kinds of creative restaurants. This place, it's only been open a few weeks and a little obscurely located and they make these creative sandwiches including the sandwich called Fancy Baloney that really has mortadella in it and aged provolone and ajvar, the red pepper paste that the Baltic people that live around there-- Rather, the people from Eastern Europe, the former Yugoslavian people, the Balcan people that live around there use on almost everything. They have another one that's filled with herbed egg salad and they have all sorts of pastries, too. That place is new and you better get there before it becomes a big hit and you can't get in. Although lunchtime, always.

Alison Stewart: Also, it's right in the name, Salty Lunch Lady's Little Luncheonette. Let's talk to Josh from Astoria. Hi, Josh. Thank you for calling in.

Josh: Thank you for having me. I have a job that takes me all across the city, all five boroughs, every neighborhood, and one of the big perks is being able to discover all these different lunch spots around the city that I would never be able to get to. One of them is New Asha cafe in Staten Island, it's Sri Lankan. There's a pretty big Sri Lankan neighborhood around there.

Robert Sietsema: At the top of the hill across from the mosque.

Josh: Yes, exactly. I feel like you may have actually mentioned it on one of the shows you've been on. It's my favorite of the Sri Lankan places in that neighborhood. I know some of the other ones get more recognition but this one is the best. As luck would have it, I'm in Brooklyn right now and I was trying to figure out where to go to lunch and now I am headed to Tacos Ramirez based on your recommendation.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Enjoy. Hey, if you get there, take a picture and send us a DM on Instagram so we can see and tell us how you felt about it.

Robert Sietsema: Thanks so much. It sounds like you have a great job.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we'd love to get you on the air. We're talking about great lunch spots in New York City. 212-433-WNYC is the number. My guest is Robert Sietsema, editor at Eater New York. We'll take more of your calls and your texts after a really quick break. This is All of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You're listening to All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Robert Sietsema editor at Eater New York. We're talking about great lunch spots in New York. With an upside of medical recovery is, "I got to go to lunch. I never get to go to lunch because of the hours of the show." We're getting some great, great suggestions. In Chinatown, there was a line out the door takeout dim sum place on Bayard called Mei Lai Wah. Pardon me if I didn't say that right. Now it's a restaurant on Pell. We also had Cameron from Brooklyn, Despaña for bocadillo and gazpacho is a must lunch. Missed you on the air.

Also, someone texted in to say that they thought we missed Kerry Nolan in our thank yous. I did say Kerry but we did miss Arun Venugopal who also filled in so thank you to Arun. Did not want to leave Arun out. Let's talk to Justina on Line 2 from Queens.

Justina: Hi. First of all, welcome back. We missed you.

Alison Stewart: Thank you.

Justina: Since you mentioned Electric Burrito, it made me think of another place that serves those burritos with french fries inside and pork belly and whatever else it goes in there. The place is called Flip Sigi and they have actually two locations. One is in West Village, the other one is in Jersey City. My whole point about them is that on Mondays, they serve those Cali burritos buy one get one free. I think they're like $12 maybe $14 at this point. They used to be cheaper but that was a couple of years ago. It's an amazing deal. The flavor is outstanding.

Robert Sietsema: They add a lot of Filipino fillings to the burritos, too. They have a really interesting menu.

Alison Stewart: Justina, thank you for calling in. I wanted to check out S&P, which was formerly Eisenberg Sandwich Shop on Flatiron, the owners of Court Street Grocers have taken it over. It was a classic. The inside is still the same.

Robert Sietsema: They've kept it the same. Thank goodness.

Alison Stewart: The tuna melt, still delightful, lime rickey was a little sweet for my taste, but I understand why someone would like it. When you want to think about a place that makes a great sandwich, a place like S&P, where would you suggest?

Robert Sietsema: Oh, man, on the spot. I love S&P. I wonder what is even equivalent?

Alison Stewart: Pastrami Queen?

Robert Sietsema: Pastrami Queen is great, but you got to eat the pastrami. Which is fine. I think the beauty of S&P is that it reproduces a form of restaurant that used to cover New York. New York used to have lunch counters everywhere, where you sat at the lunch counter and that's one of the few ones left. You would have to go into deepest Brooklyn or up to Inwood to find a similar place.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Jordan from Norfolk, Connecticut. Hi, Jordan. Thanks for calling in.

Jordan: Oh, hey. So glad you're back and healthy, Alison.

Alison Stewart: Thanks.

Jordan: Robert, over the years, you've helped me, you've assisted me with so much gustatory pleasure, and thank you. This one, my recommendation actually comes from Robert from some podcast maybe years ago and it's a little gem. It's in Regal Park Queens. It's a kosher Uzbek kebab restaurant called Cheburechnaya. When I was living in Ridgewood at doctor's appointments business in Regal Park shopping expeditions, and this was a great place to duck in. 25 or more different kinds of kebabs, fresh bread, pelmeni soup, which is just lamb tortellini soup, so many Uzbek specialties, excellent choice.

Robert Sietsema: Including lamb tail fat kebabs, which you eat with your bread, and it's just delicious. It's like putting butter on bread.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Julian from Greenpoint. Hi, Julian.

Julian: Hey, how are you doing? Wow, I did not expect to get on this. [laughter] For one, huge fan of both of you. I hope you're doing well.

Alison Stewart: Thanks.

Julian: My spot is Ashbox in Greenpoint, at the very tip of Greenpoint. It's a little Japanese cafe. They sell poke bowls, seaweed wraps, house-made tofu specials that are all additive free, very, very health conscious. The lady who runs the place actually has a YouTube channel, she definitely needs a shout-out. I wish I had a name of it, but if you go on her page, she has it all linked there. It's just a great spot. It's one person show, so it's hard to get in there but if you can, it's really good stuff. Never fails for me.

Alison Stewart: Now, Julian, it sounds like you're actually cooking. Are you making lunch?

Julian: No, I'm just sitting on the water actually in Greenpoint. Sorry if it's a little staticky over here. There's so much construction happening--

Robert Sietsema: It sounded like you were chopping something. Which we started drooling.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] That's a nice place to sit in the waterfront in Greenpoint. Julian, thank you for calling in. I tried a new Mediterranean place. It's one of those fast-casual Tara Mediterranean. Just opened up in Chelsea. The price point was a little bit high, but the food was good. In terms of Mediterranean food, you've recommended, and let me make sure I say it right, Moustache Pitza.

Robert Sietsema: Right. It just for 30 years, it was around the corner on Bedford Street and it's just reopened. It was started by an Iraqi guy who lived in Paris for years, and he was channeling these Lebanese restaurants where they bake pitas and you bring your own toppings, and then they bake it into the pita and they make these things that he calls pitzas, P-I-T-Z-A-S. [laughter] The place has just reopened and more spacious digs and they have pitzas but I'd recommend all of the mezze, all of the baba ganoush, and they have a dozen different varieties, and you get those with the freshly made pitas, and it makes just an excellent lunch. I hesitate to say, healthy as well if you go in for that.

Alison Stewart: What about noodles? What if I'm in the mood for noodles?

Robert Sietsema: I would go to Tony's Noodles, which is a renamed place in Chelsea at about 15th Street. I'm misreading my own note. Tang's Noodles. It's Shorty Tang is the grandfather of the people that run it now, you may have been there in one of its incarnations. He's the actual one who invented sesame noodles, which you think of as a Chinese, but it's really a Chinese American dish with its cunning mixture of sesame paste and the secret ingredient, peanut butter. For hot weather, there's nothing better. That place has a whole panoply of different kinds of Chinese noodle dishes and of course, noodles are now like a main course that everyone has accepted. You don't really have to have a big piece of meat on your plate anymore.

Alison Stewart: Not at all. Let's see. We've got a text that says, "Modern Love in Williamsburg for amazing vegan food. Reben Luncheonette on Havemeyer in Williamsburg famous for their Morir Soñandos."

Robert Sietsema: To die sleeping or to die dreaming.

Alison Stewart: Oh, die dreaming.

[laughter]

Robert Sietsema: To die sleeping.

Alison Stewart: La Sandwicherie in Greenpoint, heard they're opening in New York City. Yes, I walked by there, they're opening in Chelsea. Gordo's Cantina on St. Nicholas in Ridgewood. Someone has texted in. Thank you for those suggestions. Let's talk to Trent from Park Slope. Hi, Trent.

Trent: Hi. Thanks so much for all these wonderful recommendations. I want to throw Little Egg into the ring. It's a seasonal community diner style, actually a reincarnation of a longstanding Williamsburg restaurant called Egg that was there for 18 years or so before they closed for the pandemic. Have reopened in Crown Heights. They've got amazing pastries, the omelet. I'm not an omelet guy, but they're French-style omelet is to die for. Crispy Katsu egg sandwich, crispy chicken sandwich, just phenomenal menu all around. Dessert specials, slab cake and floats on the weekends. It's really just such a charming, wonderful little spot.

Alison Stewart: Trent, you've painted quite a picture. Thank you so much for that. We have a text that says, "Tatiana's Russian Cafe on the Boardwalk in Brighton Beach. Nowhere else to eat on the oceanfront in New York City. It's a Brooklyn hidden secret and it's like leaving the country. It's also a nice club, and they have a floor show at night on the weekends. The Boardwalk Cafe is charming, huge family portions, so keep in mind." That is Susan calling in or texting in from Bay Ridge. You wrote a piece, Robert, this Plex place, the new Uyghur spot is the best reason to eat in Midtown right now. What are we talking about?

Robert Sietsema: Are we talking about Tengri Tagh Uyghur?

Alison Stewart: That's probably it.

Robert Sietsema: On West 37th, yes. Uyghur restaurants, there are not enough of them. It's the Muslim minority that lives in far northwestern China abused, imprisoned and many of them luckily brought their food here. It's Chinese food with a lot of Middle Eastern influences. It's kebabs covered with Asian cummin. It's rice dishes like plov, and it's a famous dish which is called Big Tray Chicken everywhere. Which is pieces of chicken swimming in chili oil with handmade wide noodles like pappardelle in it. You can get more noodles and keep dumping them into the oil and feed like eight people with a single lunch entrée.

Alison Stewart: I like that. Let's talk to Frank, who is calling in from White Plains. Hello, Frank. Thank you for calling in.

Frank: Hi, my name is Frank. How are you doing?

Alison Stewart: Doing good.

Frank: Wonderful that you're back in the air. I'd like to have a shout-out for some of the Irish pubs that are still going on, and they're doing wonderful deals for lunches, particularly my friend Pete and Sheila. They own a, it's a family-run business. The Molly's Shebeen on 23rd Street, and you can get a burger and fries in there cheaper than-- It's like $12 at lunchtime. Now, they're famous for the Irish stew, and it's just a wonderful place to bring family if you've got elderly people that don't want to go for the sushi type of stuff.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: I love that. Frank, thank you very much. I'm down with an Irish pub and an old man bar.

Robert Sietsema: Then Molly's Shebeen is great because it really evokes Ireland. I go there for corn, beef and cabbage-

Alison Stewart: There you go.

Robert Sietsema: -every year, every St. Patrick's Day.

Alison Stewart: Do you have a place? I needed some comfort food, and I went to a throwback. I went and had high tea for lunch at Tea & Sympathy-

Robert Sietsema: Oh My God. Yes.

Alison Stewart: -on Greenwich Village.

Robert Sietsema: It's a miracle that place is still open.

Alison Stewart: It's amazing. It's just got such a great-- I mean, it takes all the fussy out of high tea. I like a fussy high tea, but it's just really wonderful and there's just a nice community around it. Do you have one of those places that's been around a long time that you don't think about going to, but then once you go you're like, "This is why I love this place?"

Robert Sietsema: I go all the time to Jersey City to Ganesh's Dosa House which is just, to me, that's comfort food. It's a pancake filled with potatoes on the same line but Indian rather than Irish or European. I would go to any of those places. There's a place called Saravana Bhavan in Curry Hill which also is a place where you can go to get dosas or to the dosa man, for God's sake, right in Washington Square who's there sporadically. Yes, dosas are my comfort food.

Alison Stewart: All right. We've got a question for you on Line 1, and if you can't answer it, that's fine, but we'll just throw it out there. Karen, calling in from Morningside Heights. Hi, Karen.

Carolyn: Hi, it's Carolyn.

Alison Stewart: Oh, Carolyn. Hi, Carolyn.

Carolyn: Hi. It's a question about a lunch item or dinner item that in the Netherlands is known as Turkish Pizza. It's a round flatbread that's spread very thinly with a mixture of ground meat and a dark red sauce.

Robert Sietsema: Lahmacun or lahmajun.

Carolyn: You know where we can get one?

Robert Sietsema: Oh, gosh, yes. That Moustache Pitza place that we just mentioned which is on 7th Avenue South around Morton Street. It definitely serves it and serves a good version, but any Turkish restaurant will have it listed as an appetizer, whether you're in Bay Ridge or you could be in Astoria, and there's Turkish restaurants there where they will serve it, but it's called Lahmacun or lahmajun, and it's delicious. Very finely ground lamb on a flatbread.

Alison Stewart: Let's see. Let's take Line 7, Miriam. No, we don't have time for Miriam? We do have time for Miriam. Okay, Miriam. Go for it.

Miriam: Hi. Can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Yes, I can hear you.

Miriam: Welcome back, Alison.

Alison Stewart: Thank you.

Miriam: It's good to hear your voice. I'm going to go fast because they told me there is only a few minutes left. I just want to speak about my Brooklyn places and my halal Brooklyn places. On Coney Island, there is Darna, there is Tashkent, which is a wonderful place, just by the end of the R train, F train, and it's on Coney Island, and it's the maker of all the halal food. It's just magnificent. Everybody has to go there.

Alison Stewart: Love it. Miriam, thank you so much. Somebody's actually sent us a DM on Instagram. At the Salty Lunch Lady's Little Luncheonette, I was walking by when you talked about it. See? Imagine. All right, before we go, we have to talk about Sweet Treats. I made my way to Bed-Stuy, at Brown Butter Creamery, delicious, Caffè Panna on Irving Place.

Robert Sietsema: I love that place.

Alison Stewart: If you wanted something sweet, a little something sweet, what do you suggest, Robert?

Robert Sietsema: I'm a fan of doughnuts. Even though the old doughnut pub has been closed due to a next-door building near collapse, the newfangled one with all the neon is still at 8th Street in Broadway. You can go there and-- I bring my granddaughter, and she stands there for 20 minutes pointing at the different colored doughnuts. She likes the one with a pink frosting and the sprinkles, of course. Doughnuts are absolutely great. Anything with chocolate will get me.

Alison Stewart: Love that. I love that's such good grandpa points. Way to go. Robert Sietsema has been my guest. He's editor at Eater New York. You've been my guests as well. Thank you for shouting out so many great lunch places in this fine city.

Robert Sietsema: Thanks, Alison.

[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Today, of course, is 9/11. The day that forever changed our city. Longtime lower Manhattan resident and professional photographer, Barbara Mensch was there that morning with her camera. Her new photo book, A Falling-Off Place: The Transformation of Lower Manhattan has a few chilling images from that day. As I said, Mensch has been living downtown for years. The book begins with work dating back to the 1980s, images like portraits of the man who worked at the Fulton Fish Market, inside the Beekman Dock Icehouse at Pier 18, a faded advertisement for the Victoria Vaudeville Theatre.

Mensch also captures the gentrification of the 1990s, the natural disaster, Superstorm Sandy in 2012. Journalist, Dan Barry wrote in the foreword of his book, "Determined to Record to Remember, Mensch photographed lower Manhattan from Canal Street South to Whitehall Street as it grieved, processed, continued the transformation, all the while she remained keenly aware of the surrounding waters." The book is out now, and Barbara Mensch joins me in studio. Nice to see you again.

Barbara Mensch: Oh, Alison, it's a great pleasure to be here. Before we start, I just want to say that in my view, you are so noble and courageous to donate a kidney to your sister. I hope going forward, you will certainly be a role model for so many people.

Alison Stewart: Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. That's one of the reasons we wanted to talk about it on air a little bit just so to bring awareness to the issue. Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. What do you remember about the Fulton Fish Market? Maybe you worked there, or you knew someone who worked there. Maybe you visited it, and you can describe it for folks who never got to experience it. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. Maybe you worked downtown during that time at Wall Street, or at City Hall, or you lived there. What did it feel like to live in that neighborhood? Can you describe what it was like to be in Lower Manhattan pre-9/11?

You can describe what it was like if you were there on 9/11, or what it's been like in the past few decades. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in and join us on the air, or you can text us at that number as we have a conversation about Lower Manhattan. Barbara, when you're defining Lower Manhattan, what are you talking about? What area are you talking about?

Barbara Mensch: A lot of people think of Lower Manhattan also as Greenwich Village, certainly areas below 14th Street, but for me and the origins, really, of Manhattan, the border was much further south. I basically decided to term Lower Manhattan, based on my own timeline and personal experience of living and traversing these different streets, which, of course, were different neighborhoods for a long time. There was the Bowery, there was Chinatown, there was Tribeca, or the area where Washington market was. Then, of course, there was the waterfront and the whole term South Street Seaport is relatively new.

When I first moved in there in the early '80s, it wasn't really called the South Street Seaport, it was just the waterfront. No one, really, if you were familiar with the Fish Market, no one ever called it, it's too long of a name. It was the market. The people who worked there and also what's so important about understanding the whole gestalt of the waterfront is that the immigrants who worked on the waterfront, many of them came to Ellis Island at the turn of the century. There were predominantly a few immigrant groups that did work on the waterfront, primarily, Italians, there's a term called Mezzogiorno and Southern Italy where many of the immigrants were fishermen. They came from the islands and Sicily, places like that where they were very, very, very connected to the water.

For me, as a young photographer, the whole idea of finding a place to live in what was then an extremely out-of-the-way place, the whole Eastern waterfront all the way down to Battery Park was very unpopulated, except for the market, which operated all night and these groups of artists. I come from the second wave of artists, the first ones that lived downtown were primarily in Coenties Slip, in places like that. It was very out of the way, and may I say, which is important for people to understand, that the waterfront was always unregulated. That becomes a whole political thing. If we have time, we probably won't have enough time.

Alison Stewart: We'll try. [chuckles]

Barbara Mensch: There's a lot of politics that became very real as time passed. As I certainly grew into this project, it became more apparent to me what forces were operating to see these changes.

Alison Stewart: When you describe it as a falling-off place, what does that mean?

Barbara Mensch: This is the miracle and mystery of the creative process. I don't know. It's like I was thinking of after I was reviewing all these, you have to remember that I shot in film, I'm a dinosaur. Nothing's on my screen from all these digital images, it's all stockpiled in these plastic sleeves and with notations. What I was thinking about pulling this together, I thought about community. I started thinking about certain playwrights like Thornton Wilder, I thought about Our Town. I thought about community or sense of place.

This idea of falling off is also an interesting thing, because it just came into my head as a metaphor for something that's tilted or something not sitting upright, or it's slidey, or it's uncertain, it's feeling like time is passing. It's off, falling off. I just said, "That's the title."

Alison Stewart: When you look at the faces, some of the photos are these great portraits.

Barbara Mensch: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: The faces of these men.

Barbara Mensch: I know. These are the real deal. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: They are the real deal.

Barbara Mensch: I just have to say, if Marty Scorsese is listening, this is the story you missed. I tried on my last book and my portfolio wound up in his office and it got lost. Thank you for that. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: I'm wondering about you as a young female photographer, like you said, with your film, with your camera, how are you received, what kind of of conversations did you have that people allowed you to make their picture?

Barbara Mensch: Let me put it this way, you couldn't just waltz in there and take pictures. It was, here's a word in German, verboten, forbidden. I think, as a young woman, this is something I talk about a little bit, I'm very competitive with men and not that I feel like I'm a feminist or anything like that, but I always felt, given my own past history, that a lot of men have gotten a lot of attention for their photography. Of course, it's changed now, but at the time, I felt very competitive. 100% of the men who worked down there were extremely tough. What I mean by tough is beyond the psychological toughness to work on the waterfront in the middle of the night in this kind of industry, which is totally about blood and muscle.

Most of these men were very strong. Physically very, very large. Even with the old timers, you could see they had these big guts and powerful legs and giant muscles popping out. This was an environment that I felt very much that I wanted to capture, this working man's world. Particularly since in the middle of the night, it was while the city slept. You want me to go on? [laughs]

Alison Stewart: I'm sorry. I was just reading an interesting text, someone else who lived down there.

Barbara Mensch: All right.

Alison Stewart: It said, "I lived on Front Street next to Brooklyn Bridge from '96 to 2001. There was a restaurant called Radio Mexico. On Tuesday nights, the bar was filled with seamen singing old sailor songs. It was great. It was being in a different world.

Barbara Mensch: I remember that restaurant, but the person who just sent that in was probably not there when the Square Rigger bar was there or The Paris, which I got thrown out of on my first attempt to photograph, or Carmine's which was still operational when I was down there taking my pictures. Yes, Radio Mexico, we had this wonderful sense of community in the area when people started moving in. One of the reasons was its physicality because we had no skyscrapers. You have to remember, this is the oldest section of New York. Period. The end. This is where the Dutch came.

This is the reason that America became America was because of the maritime trade. Of course, we all know how it started when the Lenapes got ripped off for $24 by the Dutch. [chuckles] It was the beginning of an America that expanded exponentially, particularly when the Brooklyn Bridge got built. Of course, that's my other book.

Alison Stewart: Your previous book, that's the last time you were here.

Barbara Mensch: Yes. Which has to come out and paperback soon, or else I'm going to get really upset. Anyway.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: My guest is Barbara Mensch, her new photo book, A Falling-Off Place: The Transformation of Lower Manhattan, which is out now. Someone texted in, "In the early '80s, I have a memory of roaming around down there with my mom. The fish smell was so strong. Also, it was a tchotchke shop. My gift for the day was a little flip book of a cat catching a butterfly. I still have it." It's a lovely thought. The idea of, there's some people who live in New York now who never got to experience the market. What would you want people to understand about the Fish Market at that time in terms of, you can talk about, we've talked a little bit about the flavor of it, but the importance of it in the ecosystem below of [unintelligible 00:44:24].

Barbara Mensch: Alison, I love your questions and I could stay here all day because this is so important. We have to remember two things, that small business in America was part and parcel of this economy that we had in the two giant sheds, one now, which is gone, the new market building. The other, of course, is the tin building. I did an installation in there. That was "kind of refurbished". I'll put that in quotes. What we had was these larger businesses and smaller businesses all selling seafood coming together as a symbiotic relationship. Because of these different businesses, some much larger, some smaller, everybody had the opportunity to make money because, together, the amount of seafood that could be sold and transacted, and is that the right word?

Alison Stewart: That's fine.

Barbara Mensch: In the middle of the night became huge. Then, of course, we had the advent of flying fish in from Europe or flying fish out to California. It was this symbiotic relationship of small businesses that continued to grow through the decades. At the same time, the other important thing for people to know is that we are now losing in our culture the respect for hard work and the respect for physical labor. We don't consider people who have these kinds of jobs, even plumbers and construction workers, that they have talent and ingenuity and so much energy and positive enthusiasm for the work that they do. In some of my portraits, for example, you can see there's a sense of yearning for a certain kind of pride and self-assurance because when people had a job and they can earn a living and feed their family, that gave them a sense of self.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Carol calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Carol. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Carol: Hi. Welcome back. I'm glad you're well. The Fulton Fish Market, the journeymen after they would ice up all the fish and box it and send it to the finest restaurants on Theater Row would go in Carmine's. The owners of all the stalls and the Fish Market would go up to the Sweets Restaurant. The brother and sister that ran it, Lea Lake [unintelligible 00:47:27] was your greeter and your friend and all the owners would bring their fresh fish for the chef to cook. I would go there with my father.

Barbara Mensch: That's great. They had sawdust on the floor. Sloppy Louie's. I forgot about Sloppy Louie's. It's like our Joseph Mitchell famous Sloppy Louie's.

Alison Stewart: I wanted to ask you about something that I put the two together and I'm not sure why, but I'm going to put them together. I do know why I'm putting them together in a question. There are some photos from the morning of 9/11 as well as the aftermath. There's also a really stunning photo around Superstorm Sandy, where you just see the water. It's like almost drenched my lens.

Barbara Mensch: That's my East River.

Alison Stewart: When you think about how that area recovered after two disasters, what has been a pro of the way the area recovers repeatedly and what's been a con, something that you think is not great about the way that area recovers?

Barbara Mensch: Oh, God. That's a hard question. What I did is comb through, I did research because I wanted this book not to be literary driven. We have a wonderful interview in there-

Alison Stewart: It's great.

Barbara Mensch: -which has a lot to do with Rudy G and the mob and everything that concerned accountability, which is very timely. Jane Jacobs said something very brilliant, I thought, which I wanted to put in as the header for Section 3. She said something like, "Certain cities can never recover." It's almost like a DNA thing maybe. Other cities can do it. That, I think, has to do, possibly, with how different kinds of people come together like in New York City. New York has been a great melting pot. My son went to school as a child with children of all ethnic backgrounds. Then he became a sociologist as a result.

I think that the strength of a city has to always do with its people and the kinds of people that are attracted to be there. New York, look, it's the Frank Sinatra song, if you could make it here, you make it anywhere. It's true. Because of that kind of competition and dog-eat-dog mentality, people either survive it and they become better and they grow and they blossom or they just walk away. Now, that's to answer one part of your question. The second part is, unfortunately, we are now living in a time when money and the economy now is just powered by money and corporate influence.

Alison Stewart: We see that.

Barbara Mensch: That creeps into all the pictures in the end of Section 3.

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is A Falling-Off Place: The Transformation of Lower Manhattan. It is out now. Photographer Barbara Mensch has been my guest. Barbara, thank you for calling in.

Barbara Mensch: Oh, it was great to see you again. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

 

Copyright © 2023 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.