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Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, I'm grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll talk to the performers behind Cellino v. Barnes, the play, which one review called shamelessly funny. Writer Howard Fishman is here to discuss his new biography of singer-songwriter Connie Converse, and musician William Prince will be in studio with a live performance. That is our plan, so let's get this started with a documentary about Mr. October.

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Baseball Hall of Famer, Reggie Jackson, known as Mr. October is considered one of the greatest offensive players to ever step up to the plate. He won three World Series with the Oakland A's and two with the Yankees. He was twice named World Series MVP. Reggie Jackson was not afraid to list his own achievements or speak his mind to the media. As a Black player in the 1970s, one unapologetic about his confidence, he inspired some and really rankled others.

Reggie Jackson is known for his intense conflict with Yankees manager Billy Martin. Infamously the two had to be separated in the dugout after Martin pulled Jackson from a game. A new documentary seeks to put Reggie's career and story in context from the struggle of growing up in a nearly all-white town to diversify the game of baseball.

We hear from Reggie himself and get to be a fly on the wall as he has conversations with fellow superstars like Hank Aaron, Dr. J, Derek Jeter and Aaron Judge. The film is titled Reggie and it's streaming now on Prime Video. Joining me now to discuss the film is Director Alexandria Stapleton. Alexandria, welcome.

Alexandria: Hi. Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we want to hear from you. Were you a fan of Reggie Jackson? Did you ever get to see him play? What did you think of the controversies throughout his career? What did you like about Reggie Jackson as a player and what memories do you have of Reggie Jackson's career? We're taking your calls about Yankee Legend, Reggie Jackson, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can also reach out on social media, Twitter and Instagram, same handle, @AllOfItWNYC.

Reggie Jackson is turning 77 this month, and he says right up front in the beginning of the film that he's hesitant to take part in it because he doesn't have control over it. After spending so much time with the man in the present and past of Reggie Jackson, why is control important to this person?

Alexandria: I think Reggie's desire to control is really just to be able to control his own story, his own narrative. He hails from a generation and a time before social media where as an athlete and especially as a famous athlete, one of the most famous athletes of his generation, your narrative was controlled by the press. Back in the day as a Black player, that got complicated when you had pretty much an all-white press reporting on really complicated issues that could be a lot more nuanced and a lot more complicated than just like a Black and white or a very two-dimensional understanding of what was going on. I think that's a big part of it.

Alison Stewart: How did you get him to agree to be part of this project?

Alexandria: Oh, goodness. [laughs] Well, that took time. It took a lot of conversations that we had off camera, just getting to know him. I think we really bonded in a way that we saw the film, which was not really this interest to do like, “I was born in this year and then this happened.” We weren't really interested in a completely linear story of his whole life, but more picking these moments that were catalyst of real change that also had more of a macro set to some big social change that was happening in this country. That's where we wanted to go.

I also was really excited, and I think he was too, that there was a very palpable, exciting present-day story that Reggie was experiencing. To be able to do that as a filmmaker, to incorporate vérité style of filmmaking as a documentarian was also really exciting. I think that because we were on the same page there, he felt comfortable enough to keep peeling back the layers and to let me in.

Alison Stewart: At one point in the film, Reggie says, “People are uncomfortable with me around, but the reason that you're uncomfortable with me is because I am the truth.” How has that been a big part of his persona, that he doesn't seem to really care if people are uncomfortable?

Alexandria: I think it's almost like you could see-- or as an outsider, I would say that I think it's been both a blessing and a curse. I think it's really inspiring I think for a lot of people that not just Black folks, but people that live in the margins in this country. I feel that way even as a woman to see someone with such a huge platform that's totally unapologetic and unafraid to speak their truth.

I think on the other side of that, for every action you have a reaction or a consequence to that. I think that that has been painful for Reggie throughout the years, that sometimes his truth and the way he saw things and his honesty, especially with the 1970s press, even back in the late '60s was turned around in his opinion and used against him. I think that that's something that we really tried to unpack in the film.

Alison Stewart: There's also a very personal element to the film. Very near the top, we overhear a very, very warm phone call with Pete Rose, and I thought this is a filmmaker's decision to have this near the top. Why did you make that choice? That could have been way down in the editing process. We see him with a lot of his old friends, but that's really close to the top.

Alexandria: Yes. Oh, I'm glad you noticed that. It was very intentional. I think that first scene, I wanted people to understand immediately right out the gate some of what Reggie's personality is like. I also wanted people to instantly understand the brotherhood that exists with these players and this deep-rooted connection that Reggie has with these guys that he's played with for decades. I think that people would be surprised to understand it's not just like name-dropping or like, “Oh yes, I know this guy.”

There's a real sense of connection that Reggie has and he's a great friend. I think that you see that as the film plays on these relationships with Hank Aaron, Dr. J, even Derek Jeter, they're very real and it goes both ways. These are honest relationships that I think give and take these guys have had with each other over the years. That was really important for me to see because I think Reggie was always projected as being like it was all about him, and it’s just Reggie, Reggie, Reggie, and he's by himself and he is out there. It was something that was very cool for me to witness the community that he's a part of.

Alison Stewart: It also humanized him. He's like, "Pete, I don't like to travel. I don't really want to get on a plane." It's like also two old guys just having a conversation about what a pain in the tush travel is.

Alexandria: Yes. Completely, completely.

Alison Stewart: The name of the film is Reggie. It's streaming now on Prime Video. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Were you a fan of Reggie Jackson? Did you ever get to see him play? Maybe you met him. What did you think about the controversies throughout his career? What did you like about Reggie Jackson as a player and what memories do you have of Reggie Jackson? We're taking your calls with Alexandria Stapleton, director of the film Reggie. We've got Ronnie calling in from Mountainside, New Jersey. Hi Ronnie, thanks for calling.

Ronnie: Hi Alison. Thank you for taking the call. My story is I was a nurse at NYU and I was walking out of the hospital in the early evening many years ago. This very, very tall man was walking towards me. I'm 4’10. He stood in front of me and looked down, and I'm scratching my head, and looking up and I'm saying, "I'm just trying to figure out where I know you from." He put his arm around me and he said, "Honey, you don't know me. I'm Reggie Jackson."

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Ronnie, with a great story. Thank you for sharing it. Martin's calling from the Bronx. Hi Martin, thanks for calling in.

Martin: Sure Alison. I spoke to you last week when you had Natasha on. I can't believe two calls, two for two.

Alison Stewart: There you go.

Martin: I live in the Bronx about a mile North of Yankee Stadium, so grew up as a Yankee fan. When Reggie came to New York, we thought, “What is he going to do for us?” and bingo. He was the lightning. He was arrogant, but he backed it up. He was a lightning rod for excitement so you figure he'd sparked the whole team. I wanted to pose the question, did his personality change going from Oakland to coming to the New York Yankees?

Alison Stewart: Martin, thank you for calling in. Another good question from Martin. From your work Alexandria, what did you- -notice about the change in Reggie Jackson in his personality and the way that he interacted with the world, the way the world imposed certain things on him when he went from California to New York?

Alexandria: Yes, I think it was a different-- He entered a new stratosphere almost. He was already a world champion. He had already achieved greatness with the Oakland As. I think the players, the team that he had in California with the As, it was they had been around each other for so-- they kind of grew up together, and it was more like a family, that team. I think coming to New York, it's New York City. It's the Big Apple. All eyes are on everything in New York.

I think, when he came to New York, I think he was really excited, but I don't know if he was completely ready for the media attention and just how different it would be, all the fans. Being a Yankee, it's a different experience, I think, than it was for him being an Oakland A. I think he was challenged a lot more than he probably expected to be. Potentially, maybe that put him a little bit more on the defense. I think he found himself having to explain himself and prove his self to New Yorkers and to the press.

I think that that rubbed him the wrong way because he felt that he wasn't being judged for the type of player that he was with the Oakland As. I think it was complicated. I also think he was really young still, and no one gives you a rulebook of how to handle that, especially back then. I don't know if it was a personality change as much as it was just being a fish put into a different pond almost, and you have no training wheels. It's like, you have to perform, and you have to do it very quickly.

Alison Stewart: I was going to wait and talk about that game in the World Series, but our listeners don't want to wait. We've got so many calls about it. Let's talk to Damien from Astoria. Hi, Damien.

Damien: Hey, how are you doing? Oh my gosh. I was a 12-year-old kid in 1977 watching the World Series and Reggie Jackson. When I saw Reggie Jackson hit those three home runs, it made me quit superheroes and switch over to real people because I'd never seen anything like Reggie Jackson. I loved everything about him, the brashness. He was back in his day what the players are today. People didn't understand him back then. He was the greatest. I love Reggie Jackson.

Alison Stewart: Damien, thanks for calling in. Let's talk to Diane from South Orange, New Jersey. Hi, Diane.

Diane: Hi. I just wanted to tell you that my husband and I happened to have tickets sitting between first and second base at the seventh game of the World Series when Reggie Jackson hit the three home runs. It was quite amazing. Everybody in the stands poured onto the field. It was really something.

Alison Stewart: You still remember it to this day. The way you're talking about it, I can hear it in your voice.

Diane: It was just quite an experience. It was amazing.

Alison Stewart: For those who weren't there, let's listen.

Announcer: Now listen to the ovation for Reggie Jackson as he comes up to the plate. Reggie Jackson has seen two pitches in the strike zone tonight, two, and he's hit them both in the seats.

[cheering]

Announcer: Oh, what a blow. What a way to top it off. Forget about [unintelligible 00:14:11] valuable player in the World Series, how this man has responded to--

Alison Stewart: For those of us who were not there at game six. We're talking about the documentary Reggie, and of course, we're talking about Reggie Jackson. Reggie is now streaming on Prime Video. Its director joins me, Alexandria Stapleton. Maybe that's a high of Reggie in the Yankees. You get into what was really, possibly, a low, that moment in the dugout when Reggie and Billy Martin had to be separated because Billy Martin pulled Reggie off the field, and Reggie was like, "What's up?" When you talked to Reggie about not just that moment but the overall tension with Billy Martin, what was behind that tension according to Reggie Jackson?

Alexandria: I think it was complicated. I think that for Reggie, I think that there's still probably a lot of not really understanding completely what really was fueling Billy Martin to constantly just pick at him. I think that unfortunately, Billy Martin is not here to talk about it, so we can't pose the question to him directly, but I think that there might have been a lot of other-- I think Reggie had to do some work to understand not to take it-- It felt very personal, but then to rise above it and not take it personally.

I think what's really interesting is that although that there was a lot of tension there, and it was really difficult for Reggie, I think that the reason that that high felt so good at the World Series when he became Mr. October was because you did see a team that witnessed publicly that horrible moment in the dugout and then it’s like the Yankees winning and moving past that, it was great. I think fans were on a journey that whole season and the following season.

It's stuff that you can't even write, but yes, I think that it's still a bit complicated for Reggie to really understand why. Again, it goes hand in hand with his whole move to New York and him just feeling misunderstood a lot of the time.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing the documentary Reggie, which is streaming now on Prime Video. My guest is Alexandria Stapleton, the director. You're my guest as well. We'll take more calls after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is director, Alexandria Stapleton. The name of her film is Reggie, streaming now on Prime Video, all about Reggie Jackson. Let's talk to Angela, calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Angela.

Angela: Hi. First of all, I want to say that I'm so happy that a woman directed this film. That's great. That's really amazing. I was a huge Oakland A fan in the '70s, and I was really upset with Reggie Jackson when he went because he was so-- So many players in that era seemed so invested in playing for the Yankees, so that started my lasting hatred of the Yankees. I feel like they stole all the good players.

I'm so grateful that you did this film because I saw a different side of it. I was a kid, and I didn't understand the politics of baseball then and so I really didn't appreciate all the struggles that Reggie had gone through just to be there. The fact that he got paid so little was crazy when you talked about that in the film. I just want to say thank you so much for doing this film because it really gave me a different perspective of what he'd gone through and his struggles.

Alison Stewart: Angela, thank you for calling in. Yes, Alexandria, talk to us a little bit about some of the issues that Reggie faced that other players didn't face.

Alexandria: By the way, thank you so much for those kind words about the film. I think that there's issues that he faced as a Black player that were not unique to him as a Black player. Other Black players experienced that. We get into that in the film. When you were a player and you worked down South, it was still Jim Crow era, and the fact that you were not allowed to do things with your team and how degrading and horrible that was. I think that that was unique to white players in the league at that time.

I think, as time went on, things that were unique to Reggie, again, it goes back to his unapologetic self. It was interesting. Hank Aaron was like, "He always said the things that we wanted to say," and I think that made Reggie even a bit more in his own lane even compared to other Black players, that he was completely unafraid to speak his mind to the owners, to the managers, to teammates when he felt that he was being disrespected. That was pretty, I guess, the word would be punk rock for back in that era and during that time period. I think that that made him unique.

I also think one really interesting thing about him as a player I read an autobiography he did. He was about 27 years old. It was in the ‘70s when he was still playing for Oakland, and at that young age, he was laser focused on ownership. There weren't even any Black GMs. There were no Black people in the front office anywhere in Major League Baseball, but Reggie had already set his sights on like, "I want to own a team one day." I think that that's fascinating and really gives you insight into who he is and how unique he is that he experienced the barrier, but he never saw himself as someone who couldn't get past that. I think that that makes him a really unique individual.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to John from Red Bank, New Jersey. Hi John. Thanks for calling All Of It.

John: Hi. Thanks for having me. I watched the documentary. I thought it was just amazing. It was excellent. I didn't know anything about his experience in the Minor Leagues in the A system in Birmingham, Alabama, and what he went through with the racism that he dealt with in that situation, plus how unfairly he was treated by the As themselves. The scenes between him and Hank Aaron speaking about racism were just riveting. My jaw was dropped the entire time. I really didn't know most of that experience and I just found it incredible.

I was three years old in 1977 when he hit the three home runs so I did not see it, but I was told about it, and he was my favorite player. I had a huge button that took up about half of my chest that we got at Yankee Stadium [laughs] and he was just a superhero to me. Strangely, I actually had the very lucky opportunity when I was about nine. Reggie's very active in the automotive industry. My family business is in the automotive industry in one way or another, my uncle became a liaison between Reggie Jackson and a company called TRW. He was going to do some promotional work.

We went and saw the Yankees play the Angels. He was on the Angels at that point. I believe it was his first season. After the game, we actually went back to his hotel and we had dinner with Reggie Jackson. He sat next to me with his arm around me in a banquette seat and it was just like sitting next to Superman. It was one of the most amazing experiences of my life. I still have a ball and a mitt that he signed to me, and he was just the kindest and sweetest guy.

Alison Stewart: John, thank you so much for calling in. I want to circle back to something that John and Angela both talked about, was some of the really overt racism that Reggie Jackson experienced as a young player. There's a point when he can't sleep in the same place as his teammates White establishment owners like, "No, he can't stay here." How they'd have to buy lunch for him. We actually have a clip from Reggie Jackson being on WNYC from our archives talking about some of the death threats he was facing during the 1973 World Series. Let's take a listen.

Reggie Jackson: We were in Mr. Finley's office, and the two FBI agents were there, and they told me that they had gotten a letter from a group so-called the Weathermen and the letter was of a threat on my life. It said, "If Reggie Jackson plays in the playoffs, in the 1973 playoffs of the World Series, it'll be the last time he ever does anything." We just took precautions and the FBI people were great. I had an escort in Baltimore, I had an escort to and from the ballpark in New York. Everything was great. I wasn't worried at any time.

Alison Stewart: That's so interesting that it was throughout his entire career. It makes you wonder, he sort of sloughed it off, but I'm curious through your time with him and through overhearing those conversations with Hank Aaron, could he just brush it off? I know he was doing that because there was a microphone in his face, but I'm really curious what your thoughts are.

Alexandria: I think that you see that there's still a lot of pain for him, and when he talks about these moments, it's tough. I think we're not just talking about one incident. That was from '73 and so then you have to put in context that it's 1973. He's a phenomenal player and he's left Birmingham. To him, going to Birmingham, he was so scared to do it, and he was so relieved when he got out. Then to go to California, you're playing for the Oakland As and it's like it still travels with you. Then who you have his whole boyhood experience and the racism that he faced as a child and as a young kind of coming of age man and in college.

At every point in his life, he had to deal with that off the field. I think that it's an accumulative thing that-- I think it's really remarkable that he was able to play and to put the noise out and perform and be this phenomenal player. Then decades and decades and decades go by and you still have all of these experiences and like, "How do you actually work that out?" Again, it goes back to the earlier thing about the brotherhood and Hank Aaron. It's like these players, they understand that about each other. I wanted to be able to capture those kind of conversations because it's like Hank Aaron also has that experience.

That's why I think that there's this crazy bond that they have where they understand, and a lot doesn't have to be said to emotionally understand where the other guy is coming from. I think that that's probably why they were so close, because who else could really understand what that felt like?

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Anita, calling in from Brooklyn. Hi, Anita.

Anita: Hi. Thank you, Alison. I love your show. I appreciate you taking my call. I just have a quick story of I met Reggie Jackson in San Francisco. I can't remember, just after the Oakland fire, and I was a firefighter and I was in uniform. He came up to me and thanked me, even though he lost his prize car collection that was in a warehouse in the Oakland Hills. He said, "Thank you so much," and he gave me a hug. He was so gallant and such a gentleman and humble.

He was my greatest star because I grew up in New York and I lived in the Bay Area, and watching him be so famous and deliver. I just think he was ahead of his time like Muhammad Ali. They had a voice and they delivered, and that was my story. He came up to me and thanked me and gave me a hug so that's that.

Alison Stewart: Amazing. That's that. That's a great story. Anita, thanks for calling in. We're talking about the film Reggie and Reggie Jackson. It's now streaming on Prime Video. It's director has been speaking with us, Alexandria Stapleton. After Reggie retired, he was hired by the Yankees organization to work with players and advised the team. It's clear in recent years, he ended up having issues with how the organization was being run. As you mentioned, he was very, very focused on ownership. What has it meant to him that that's not really come to fruition?

Alexandria: I think it's still very painful. I think that for a man who achieved so much, and is also a great businessman, and was able to come up with the financing to buy a team twice, not once, but twice, and was the of highest bidder both times. You’re in your 50s and 60s and you're like, "Why?" Like, "What more do I have to do?" [laughs] Like, "Why am I still going through this?" I think that it's something that he has not gotten a real answer for and I think it's still really important to him.

While he I think has accepted that ownership may not happen for him, I think that he’s doing so much work currently to try to get more people of color, Black and Brown folks in the front office all across the MLB today. I think it was a part of his relationship with Derek Jeter to help mentor him about like, "Hey, this is what I went through. Here's some things that you can learn from me in your road to ownership."

It's still something that needs to be worked on and that the league has acknowledged that. I think that it's important to archive what Reggie's story and his experience so that people can understand collectively how much work we have to do for the future.

Alison Stewart: What is his relationship with MLB today? There's that point where Jackie Robinson would not be involved for a long time, and just days before he dies, he finally accepts an award. He takes part in one of the historic days. He says, "This is great, but I'll be happier when I see down third base seeing a manager." Where is Reggie Jackson today and the way he feels about Major League Baseball?

Alexandria: Well, he's still working with the MLB, with Jim Crane, the owner of the Houston Astros. That's my city and my favorite team. I think what's so- -awesome Reggie's managed to do is as outspoken as he's been, he's always been able to carve out a place for him. Although he's not with the Yankees any longer, he's found a home with the Astros and he's at the right hand of Jim Crane. He's very involved with the players. He's regarded like a really important voice for that team, for the change that that team can do with all of these issues about inclusivity.

I think that his voice is needed down here. It's great and we'll see what happens. His story is still being written. I'm excited to see what happens a few years from now and to see what his imprint has been on the Astros. He's got a great relationship with the MLB and I think there's a mutual respect. I think it was important for him to make sure that this story got across so that you can't erase it. What do we do to learn from it and to move us forward?

Alison Stewart: Reggie is streaming now on Prime Video. I've been speaking with its director, Alexandria Stapleton. Alexandria, thanks for being with us.

Alexandria: Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you to everyone for watching the film.

Alison Stewart: And thanks to everybody who called in.

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