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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. Thanks for spending part of your day with us. On today's show, we'll talk about the new animated film The Inventor, which is about the life of Leonardo da Vinci. We'll speak with the directors of the HBO docuseries Telemarketers, and Regina Spektor joins us here in WNYC's Studios 5 for a live performance. That's the plan. Let's get this started with some new folk songs for kids.

[MUSIC - Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs: Little Wilma Wiggly Worm]

Little Wilma Wiggly Worm

Is not afraid of icky germs

She digs through dirt in the early morn

Brave Little Wilma Wiggly Worm

For breakfast humans eat French toast

While Wilma chews through old compost

She's a proud young worm, but she never boasts

Proud Little Wilma Wiggly Worm

Kousha Navidar: That's Little Wiggly Worm, the first song on a new children's album called Mr. Greg & Cass McCombs Sing and Play New Folk Songs for Children. Yes, that Cass McCombs has teamed up with Greg Gardner. They're friends all the way back from their own childhood, and now Mr. Greg is a preschool teacher who's been incorporating music in the classroom for a long time. The album, it's full of short, catchy tunes with a folky sound like this one called I'm a Nocturnal Animal.

[MUSIC - Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs: I'm a Nocturnal Animal]

I'm a nocturnal animal

I sleep all day

At night I take flight

To hunt for prey

Hoot hoot hoot hoot

Yeah, I make that sound

And I can spin my head

Nearly all the way around

Kousha Navidar: The album was released on the nonprofit label from the Smithsonian Museum called Smithsonian Folkways, which is actually celebrating its 75th anniversary. The labels released music from the likes of Woody Guthrie, Ella Jenkins and Our Native Daughters. In case you were curious listeners, some background about me in a past life, I was a high school geometry teacher, and I believe there is an opportunity for an album rapping about the Pythagorean Theorem, call it Let's Get Hypoten-loose. Seriously, Mr. Greg & Cass McCombs Sing and Play New Folk Songs for Children is out now. With me now for a listening party for the album is preschool teacher Mr. Greg, aka Greg Gardner, and musician Cass McCombs. Hi, Greg. Hi, Cass.

Greg Gardner: Hi there. I join you from the farm and garden at my school where we found Little Wilma Wiggly Worm.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wonderful. How's Wilma doing?

Greg Gardner: I haven't seen her in the garden, but I see many of her friends, and they seem to be doing quite well.

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. I'm so excited to be here with you both. Greg, first questions for you. You've obviously been playing music in your classroom for years, and Cass, we all know you as a musician. Greg, first I want to hear from you. What's the origin story of how you guys got the idea to make an album of children's music in the first place?

Greg Gardner: Cass and I have been making childlike music since we were adolescents. Some of the songs were not appropriate for children themselves, but we would make these songs and share them with a couple of our friends and with my mom. Years passed, and I became a preschool teacher, and I said, "Hey, Cass, I wrote all these songs for the kids in my class. Would you help me make them sound good?" I wrote the words and the basic melodies, and then Cass added his musical magic, and they sound as they do.

Kousha Navidar: Cass, how was it for you when Greg approached you with that idea?

Cass McCombs: Oh, it's fantastic. Greg has a wonderful musical mind, and he's always coming up with songs and always has.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, and I'm sure that the relationship you do have must have had a lot to do with that inspiration, too. You two go way back, all the way to high school in the Bay. Cass, how did you both first meet, and what was a typical day hanging out with Greg and Cass?

Cass McCombs: Greg introduced me to so much music that is fundamental to my wanting to become a musician. Turned me on all kinds of bands when we were really young. He's pretty advanced. Yes, I have a lot. I'm indebted to Greg.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow. Greg, how does it feel to hear him say that?

Greg Gardner: That feels quite nice because I could say the same about Cass. He introduced me to so much music as well, including the Elizabeth Cotten album that's put out on Folkways. He said, "You got to get this," and of course, I love it. I think I maybe gave him a Velvet Underground record with the butt on it. I had the cassette tape that our art teacher would let us listen to in class. I said, "Why don't you take this?" He gave me some old country and folk in exchange for that.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. When you think about this album that you've written, how much of the spirit of it and the sound of it maybe do you think you can trace back to your early days together, like listening to the Velvet Underground and finding opportunities to jam in class?

Greg Gardner: Probably most of it. I feel like the music that I heard as an adolescent is kind of still the same stuff I listen to today. If it's not the exact same songs or the same albums, it's the sound. The sound that I always go back to is the old folk stuff and the old country stuff and, of course, the old rock and roll stuff.

Kousha Navidar: I want to talk for a second about taking that music and applying it to your profession now, Greg. How did you first get interested in becoming a teacher? Why preschool?

Greg Gardner: Well, my wife and I had a kid ourselves 13 years ago, and so I thought, "You know what? I need to learn a little bit about children if I'm going to be a dad." I went back to school and eventually got my credential and became a preschool teacher, and before I was a preschool teacher, I worked at the San Francisco Skate Club, which is a youth program for skateboard enthusiasts that are young, and I'm an aging skateboard enthusiast.

Kousha Navidar: [chuckles] I used to live in San Francisco. Do you go skate at Golden Gate Park every Saturday. Do they still do that?

Greg Gardner: Oh, you mean where they roller skate too?

Kousha Navidar: That's right. Yes.

Greg Gardner: I used to live right next to that area where they roller skate, so we would skateboard there a lot. I don't think they like the skateboards there. They don't really like skateboards anywhere in this world, it seems like. They're a little bit more accustomed to skateboards in the world these days than people used to be, but yes, that's very beautiful around there, Golden Gate Park.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, of course, and there's so many references that I heard in the album. I think you mentioned Church of 8 Wheels, too, is that right? Did I catch that?

Greg Gardner: Oh, yes, that's the roller skate. It's a church that was converted into a roller rink. I went there with my daughter for her birthday just a couple of months ago. That song I wanted it to be about all sorts of wheeled devices that people can have fun on, including skateboards and roller skates. Then I had another verse that I had written, and I brought it into the studio with Cass, but Cass, I forgot to sing the third verse but it included all sorts of other wheeled devices. I don't know, maybe we can sing that one day.

Kousha Navidar: Let's talk about it in the classroom. When you think of music in the classroom, what do you think about its role in engaging kids and using it as a learning tool specifically?

Greg Gardner: I think the rhyming and the rhythm really gets kids to pay attention and gets them engaged, especially since you can move your body to the rhythm and the rhyme, and then the rhyming makes the words more interesting, and then kids pick up on new vocabulary that they wouldn't otherwise pick up on. All the things that I remember from being a child have a musical base to them. I remember all the songs from when I was a kid, and I'm able to remember certain facts if there's a rhyme somewhere in there. I think other kids feel like that too, and also it just creates a lot of community in the classroom for everybody to get together for the same purpose of just learning a song and being together.

Kousha Navidar: I want to talk a little bit about an example of where you can actually use songs as a learning tool, whether it's a mnemonic device or rhyming or just even just classification. One song that I loved was Things That Go in the Recycling Bin. Let's listen to a clip from that song right now.

[MUSIC - Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs: Things That Go in the Recycling Bin]

Soda-pop bottle, junk-mail pile, bean can made outta tin

These are things that go in the recycling bin

Cardboard scraps, outdated maps, lotto card that didn't win

These are things that go in the recycling bin Bottle caps, paper sacks, old postcards sent from Jim

These are things that go in the recycling bin

Jam jar, wrapper from a candy bar, milk carton low-fat or skim

These are things that go in the recycling bin

Kousha Navidar: That song was great for me just to make sure that I knew what actually went into the recycling bin, but also to think about how you can take any kind of theme that might be important and weave it into a beautiful song. Cass, I want to talk about producing the record. I was listening to that song, I think I heard a cello in there, a guitar obviously, a whole range of instruments. How did you think about shaping the sound of this album and what instruments to use depending on the song?

Cass McCombs: It was really fun. We just primarily kept it, Greg and I and our friend Jeremy Brown, who we also grew up with, and then invited a few other friends, like the cello player. Greg, remind me his name. Ben--

Greg Gardner: Ben Siegelman. He actually was a parent in my class. I had both of his kids in my class. He's a very nice man and talented musician.

Cass McCombs: Fantastic, yes.

Kousha Navidar: Were there specific instruments that you thought, "Oh, hey, this song, this needs that specific instrument in there?"

Cass McCombs: I don't remember.

Greg Gardner: Maybe in the song about builders, A Builder's Got a Hammer and Nails. We wanted to use tools as instruments in that one, for sure.

Cass McCombs: Oh, yes.

Kousha Navidar: Thinking about the themes as well, so there's the instrumentation of it, but also what you're actually singing about. There's a lot of different topics across the album. I mean, I heard Wiggly Worm. There's one about recycling, which we just heard. A little bit later we're going to hear a song about Harvey Milk. How did you both decide the general themes you wanted to hit? Was it collaborative? Did one of you have a list and then we worked off of there? How did that look?

Greg Gardner: I had been writing the songs for the kids in my class for the past several years. Just things that we were learning about in class. For instance, we learned about the human body, so I made, My Skull is Made Outta Bone so we could learn about the inner workings of the human body. Then Little Wilma Wiggly Worm was actually about a worm that a kid discovered in the garden at my school. We named the worm and then sang about her.

Harvey Milk, that one was written because my school is located just a few blocks from the Castro District where Harvey Milk had his camera store, and my school celebrates Harvey Milk on his birthday with an assembly every year. At the time there weren't any preschool appropriate books about Harvey Milk, so I thought maybe I can make a little sing-along coloring book as a way to introduce the kids to Harvey Milk and what he's done for the LGBTQ+ community and our San Francisco community.

Kousha Navidar: Let's listen to that song right now, because I thought it was moving almost. Here's a clip from that song.

[MUSIC - Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs: Wave a Flag for Harvey Milk]

Let's all wave a flag for the late, great Harvey Milk

A flag that stands for love made of rainbow-colored silk

Let's all wave a flag for the late, great Harvey Milk

A red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple flag of rainbow silk

Kousha Navidar: That song is clearly about the importance of supporting the LGBTQ+ community. It features the SF Gay Men's Chorus, and teaching kids to understand that importance as you were saying Greg, in the Bay Area, that's maybe more common than another area. The question that I have is about how we've seen in other regions of the country, they're heavily coercing teachers maybe, and there's state governments telling them what they can teach a certain curricula. Greg, I'm curious, as a teacher how does that make you feel?

Greg Gardner: It's disappointing. It's quite disappointing. I work in a place where the values that are heard in that song are echoed in my school community. It's easy to talk about people like Harvey Milk at my school, and I'm sorry that's not the case in other parts of the country and the world, but I'm glad that there are many books coming out on people that showed bravery and helped out others in their lives, that are for children, that are on lots of bookshelves in classrooms. I'm happy that people continue to release stuff like that, and that kids and adults are exposed to just the advocacy that people like Harvey Milk have shown for their community.

Kousha Navidar: I've been speaking with Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs about their new children's album out now. It's called Mr. Greg & Cass McCombs Sing and Play New Folk Songs for Children. We're going to take a quick break and, and talk more in a second. Thanks so much. Hang on.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar filling in for Alison Stewart. We're talking about a new children's folk album coming out with Mr. Greg Gardner and Cass McCombs. I want to move to another song. Now, I want to talk about one titled Requiem for Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and before we go to it, Cass, can you just tell us how this song came together?

Cass McCombs: Well, this is another Greg creation. I believe Greg, you wrote it for your classroom once again. Yes?

Greg Gardner: That's the truth, Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Yes, I wrote that on the day of her memorial. I was driving to work across the Bay Bridge, and I was listening to her memorial and I thought, "I need to talk to the three to five year olds in my class about Ruth Bader Ginsburg," and so I just started coming up with words while in the car, and when I got to the parking lot of my school, I sang them into my phone and recorded them. Then later that day, I think I went to Ben Siegelman's house, and we sat on the deck, and he played the banjo and I sang the song, and then Cass added his parts, and that's what you hear on the record, so that was recorded on the deck outside with some additions later on.

Kousha Navidar: Let's hear how it all came together. Here's the clip from that song.

[MUSIC - Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs: Requiem for Ruth Bader Ginsburg]

Do what is right

Be fair and brave

We learn this in our youth

Stand up for the ones who can't

And always speak the truth

That's the truth, Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Knew it all along

We the people are all equal

Our voices all belong

That's the truth, Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Spirit lingers on

You can feel it all around us

And hear it in this song

When Ruth was young she hoped to be a famous opera star

Singin' in a forte voice so her words would travel far

Well Ruth became a star it's true but she shined a different light

On the people in the shadows longing for their equal rights

That's the truth, Ruth Bader Ginsburg

Knew it all along

We the people are all equal

Our voices all belong

That's the truth, Ruth Bader Ginsburg's

Spirit lingers on

Kousha Navidar: RBG is obviously a hero for women's rights in this country and idolized by many. Greg, I'm wondering why was it important to you to write a song about this person as a learning tool in your class?

Greg Gardner: Because she stood up for those who weren't able to stand up for themselves for whatever reason, or she helped them do that, and that's something that we try to instill in the preschool children in our class, just to be advocates for one another, to be kind for one another, and stand up for things that you see are not right. Like if you see somebody on the playground treating somebody else unfairly, then you step in and try to stop it, but I'd also like to point out on that particular song, what made it lovely is that the Chapins are on there singing, Chapin Sisters are singing on there, and they've got such beautiful voices, and then my daughter, Una Gardner is the one that leads the song off with a poem. I'm very happy to have those folks on there.

Kousha Navidar: That brings up one of my favorite parts of the album, which was in a number of songs, and that one in the first one about having friends from all around the world. You hear a community of voices. How did you go about sourcing those voices, thinking about where they could appear? It was wonderful to hear such a variety of places and sounds like that.

Greg Gardner: Are you talking about the people that say their names in their native language?

Kousha Navidar: Yes. That was one example that I was thinking of.

Greg Gardner: A lot of those people were-- or some of them were co-workers, or some of them were fellow teachers. Others were just friends of ours, and my fellow teachers are also friends. Then, let's see, I think even on the goodbye version, we have my grandfather saying goodbye, and that was taken from recording from the 1940s when he was a radio DJ in Chicago. That was taken from an old acetate. I've even got my grandmother on there. I've got all my kids, like a bunch of students in my class. We've even got Tommy Guerrero, who is a childhood hero of mine, and also Cass's, this old skateboarder. We just thought of all the people that would be fun to have on the record. Then, of course, we didn't include all of our favorite people in the world, but we included some good ones.

Kousha Navidar: If you're just joining us, this is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar filling in for Alison Stewart. We're talking with Greg Gardner and Cass McCombs about their new children's folk album. It's got a whole bunch of great songs in there, and it comes out of a very interesting label, Smithsonian Folkways. The Smithsonian Museum's nonprofit record label is called Smithsonian Folkways as a part of the Center for Folk Life and Cultural Heritage, which itself has a rich history, releasing music from the likes of Ella Jenkins, Woody Guthrie, Pete Seeger, and in modern-day more recently, the supergroup, Our Native Daughters. Cass, Greg, both of you, I'd love to know, how did you think about this legacy as you were recording that album? Did it play any role for you?

Cass McCombs: Well, we're both big record collectors and love the Folkways legacy and music. Like Greg said, that Elizabeth Cotten record is very important to us, so many Michael Hurley's first record, and others. When we started working on the record, we just thought who should we ask, who might be interested? This was the first most obvious place that came to mind, and they said yes, thankfully.

Kousha Navidar: [crosstalk] Go ahead.

Greg Gardner: Oh, it's not only the music that they put out which is incredible. Many of my favorite records are on the label, but just the visual aesthetics like the cover art in the way that the old records were made with a paste on covers with the really thick cardboard and how they each came with booklets of liner notes and drawings and photographs that were like miniature textbooks, but more fun to look at than the textbooks I used to see when I was a kid. It's been great to have a record on Folkways.

Kousha Navidar: How did this release compare to other things that they came out with? When you approached them were they thinking, "This is coming out of a field?" Or were they like, "Oh, this falls in directly in line with what we normally like to produce anyway." What was that conversation like?

Greg Gardner: I don't recall that exact conversation, but I think that it falls in line with a lot of the-- they've put out so many great children's records. I think a good deal of Smithsonian Folkways catalog are children's records by people like Ella Jenkins and Peggy Seeger and Woody Guthrie and Ramblin' Jack Elliott. They've got so many great children's records. I don't think it was unusual for them to release a children's record. Maybe it's a little unusual for them to release a record by Cass. He's quite popular already himself, and so maybe that's different. I think that they would often put out more obscure artists, at least in the beginning, I think.

Kousha Navidar: Cass, when I think about you joining in on this project, you have your own successful music career, a friend, longtime friend, comes up to you and says, "Hey, I've got a great idea. Let's make this thing together." You can probably point out a lot of the elements that would appeal to you. Was there anything, looking back, that delighted or surprised you, something that you weren't expecting to get out of this production that looking back you're really thankful for?

Cass McCombs: Well, Greg is just really open to allow me to experiment with some guitar parts and some of the arrangements. Some of the arrangements of a couple of songs were pretty atonal at times. I think that was just fun for me, and fortunately, Greg allowed me and trusted me to do that.

Kousha Navidar: Greg, how about for you, looking back on this, was there something that surprised you that you weren't expecting to get out of it?

Greg Gardner: Something that I wasn't expecting. Well, I wasn't expecting to do an interview on your radio show. That's quite surprising.

Kousha Navidar: We're happy to have you here.

Greg Gardner: What's that?

Kousha Navidar: I said, we're happy to have you here.

Greg Gardner: Oh, yes. Thanks for having us. No, nothing. It's great to just be able to rekindle our friendship. We've been friends this whole time, but just to be able to talk to Cass more often now that we've done this project together and just to get our music out there. Before, when we started making music, maybe five people had a cassette that we gave to them, and now there's six, seven, or eight people out there in the world that have heard it. No, it's been a really great process, and I really appreciate Cass for getting involved in lending his musical skills to the project. I'll be forever grateful to him and to Smithsonian Folkways, and all the kids and all the people that are on the album.

Kousha Navidar: Speaking of those kids, I suppose my last question for you, Greg, and Cass is, well, Greg, you've been a preschool teacher for a long time, and of course, you get older, but the students you teach every year are the same age. As you think about your own career as a teacher, how is seeing that lapse of time for you, especially as it relates to these songs that you're writing that you hope can last long after your career as a teacher?

Greg Gardner: No, it's funny you mentioned the lapse of time because I do feel rather old. My daughter the other day, she's 10, I shaved and I said, "Do I look older or younger with the shaved face?" She was like, "Yes, you look quite a bit older. Your chin, it looks like Grandpa's. It's all red like Grandpa's." I said, "Red?" She said, "No, it's not red like Grandpa's, it's purple." I feel like I've been aging and I don't remember the question exactly, but, yes, I've been aging. The kids have been staying the same age in my classroom, which keeps me young inside. I still get to play in the sandbox. I still get to draw pictures and sing songs and ride around on tricycles. I get to stay youthful through the children that I teach, and I hope that these songs stay with them, and that they listen to them as they grow up and look back fondly on their preschool experience.

Cass McCombs: I love that.

Kousha Navidar: I've been speaking with Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs about their new children's album out now. It's called Mr. Greg & Cass McCombs Sing and Play New Folk Songs For Children. Greg, Cass, thanks for being with us.

Greg Gardner: Thanks for having us.

Cass McCombs: Thank you.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you. Just since I love this record, let's go out on some more music. We're going to hear from Friends from All Around the World (Goodbye Version). Here it is.

[MUSIC - Mr. Greg and Cass McCombs: Friends from All Around the World (Goodbye Version)]

I got friends from all around the world

So many people far and wide

Like Bongo from Guinea

And this is how they say goodbye

Oh

I got friends from all around the world

So many people far and wide

Like Peggy Seeger from Oxford, UK

And this is how they say goodbye

Goodbye, see you soon

I got friends from all around the world

So many people far and wide

Like Pamela from Puerto Rico

And this is how they say goodbye

Hasta la vista

 

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