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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, I am grateful you are here. It's a great day to curl up in front of your radio, and we have a terrific show today. We'll be joined by the curators of two amazing new exhibits, The MoMA's Ed Ruscha exhibit, and The Frick Madison's exhibit of the work of the late artist Barkley Hendricks. We'll speak with Ronald Young Jr. Who is the host of a new podcast, Weight For It as in W-E-I-G-H-T. That is our plan. Let's get this hour started with the new film, Invisible Beauty.

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Alison Stewart: Throughout her decades-long career, Bethann Hardison redefined the image of beauty. During her time as a model in the late '60s and '70s as one of the first dark-skinned Black women to walk the runway during her time running her own modeling agency. During her time as an activist fighting for inclusion in the fashion industry, we learned about all of it in a memoir-esque new film titled Invisible Beauty. We find out about some foundational moments in Bethann Hardison's life.

Much of it here in New York City, a childhood spent in Bed-Stuy and Summers in North Carolina, being discovered by African American designer Willi Smith, and her loving yet sometimes fraught relationship with her son, actor Kadeem Hardison. In her professional life, she was a warrior in the fight for representation of Black models in magazines, billboards, and fashion shows, and was instrumental in the careers of Iman, Naomi Campbell, and Tyson Beckford, all of who credit Bethann with helping keep them sane and employed.

Review and Variety said those five decades, hers and the industries are expertly woven together by co-directors Hardison and Frédéric Tcheng, using a cache of personal photos, a wealth of archival images, clips, and interviews sewn together by Hardison sharing of recollections and insights. The film is called Invisible Beauty, is playing in theaters now, including the Film Forum here in the city and the Claridge and Montclair. Joining us now to talk about the film is director of Frédéric Tcheng. Last time he was on our show, we were discussing his documentary, Halston. Welcome back, Frédéric.

Frédéric Tcheng: Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

Alison Stewart: Also joining us is his co-director and the subject of the film and his beauty, Bethann Hardison. Bethann, it is a pleasure to meet you.

Bethann Hardison: Oh, thank you so much, Alison. It's a pleasure to hear you.

Alison Stewart: Bethann, what is one of your earliest memories of fashion or style something or someone you saw and you just knew that style?

Bethann Hardison: Oh, that's the neighborhood. I grew up in Becker Stuyvesant, and I think that seeing the men on the corners talking stuff, looking at their double-pleated pants, wing tip show shoes, their shirts, no matter what it was, everybody looks cool. When they didn't, they were a lot of fun. It was just a great moment. I think a lot of the culture just basically, whether it be what you wear or how you act was style to me.

Alison Stewart: Frédéric, you have known Bethann prior to this film. What is an aspect of her career in the industry that you knew you wanted to cover?

Frédéric Tcheng: Well, I think the activism is really something that interested me a lot. I was looking at Bethann as this incredible leader in the industry who really made a mark on literally how the fashion world looks today in terms of diversity and the models of color really getting their dues. I think that was a big part. When I realized that Bethann had documented a lot of the town hall meetings that she held in 2008, 2007, that's incredible footage. That's historical footage that nobody's seen and that people need to know because a lot of people have forgotten that chapter in the history of fashion.

Alison Stewart: Bethann, why did you want to co-direct the film, and was there any moment that you as a co-director and you as a subject had differing opinions?

Bethann Hardison: Well, the good news is that Frédéric said he wouldn't do the film unless I co-directed. That was a gift and a little bit of a pressure, but I took it like, "Well said, and well done, Frédéric," because I felt much more comfortable if I had someone that was a lead horse to make the film with me. I'm just glad he wanted to make the film.

I never, at any given point, had a time where I felt any difficulty with him either because he's such-- so much the audience. He's so hungry for the information I'm giving for who I am, that it made it very much, much easier for me to allow him to come into my life because he was like a fly on the wall.

Alison Stewart: Frédéric, we hear a lot from Bethann. We get to see her in action, see her do her thing, but who else's voice did you know you needed to have in this film to tell a complete story?

Frédéric Tcheng: Well, we needed everyone's voice because Bethann has had an impact on so many people. Really, that was one of the challenges is who to include. We knew we couldn't have hundreds of people but it's literally-- Bethann's life has been like a chorus of voices just telling us how much of an impact she's had on them. It goes from Zendaya to Naomi Campbell, Iman, the young designers that she's mentoring right now, and everyone. That's what Bethann does. She's been an incredible mentor to the industry.

Alison Stewart: Well, let's listen to a clip from the film, Invisible Beauty. This is Iman, Somali American model, people know Iman, reminiscing about one of the first encounters she had with Bethann Hardison. This is from Invisible Beauty.

Iman: There were a lot of American Black models who were not given the opportunity, and here was somebody that they had to import, bring it from another country. Steven Burroughs asked if I would come to do his show. I get there and everybody had this idea that I didn't speak a word of English. Bethann was there. She gave me a dress and heels, and for the life of me, I could not put the heels on. She got on her knees and helped me to put it on, and the whole room went against her.

They said, "Oh, she also is supposed to be royalty. Don't get on your knees because this is what she'll be expecting that everybody will do for her." Bethann didn't pay any attention to them. She looked up at me and she said, "You understand everything they're saying or don't you?" I said, "Yes", in English, but it was-- to me she was like the Statue of Liberty, the first person who said to me, "Welcome to America."

Alison Stewart: Bethann, what is something that people don't understand about the life of a model that maybe you hope they understand a little better after seeing this film?

Bethann Hardison: The interesting thing, Alison, is that the film is not really a fashion film. It's fashion-related, yes. It tells a story, a part of my life where I made some effect that really helped to change the industry of, I think, the industry of fashion models as well as the industry of fashion. I think that a lot of times we don't know how hard models have it in general, whether they be Black, white, Asian, Puerto Rican, or Latino. No matter what it is, the difficulty is not an easy job to have.

I think at certain times, it just changes-- the industry changes. At some point, you might have had an easier time. When I was a runway model, it was easy because all the girls of color and anybody, white or anyone, was just having a good time with the fashion designers. Then the industry changed, and once it change, other things start to come into play. It becomes a little bit more difficult sometimes when the Eastern European girls start to come into the industry.

Then, of course, the girls of color or even the glamorous girls, the supermodels, weren't asked to be part of it anymore. They were suppressed. You no longer saw them. Some of the things I think that we need to understand is that how hard for a model it is to work and to have stamina about what you're doing, putting up with a lot. Sorry. Putting up with a lot of other things. Putting up with people, knowing how to sway with the wind, so to speak.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Bethann Hardison and Frédéric Tcheng. We're talking about the film, Invisible Beauty. It's about Bethann Hardison's career and her impact on the fashion industry. Frédéric, I want you to-- this was really interesting, something I didn't put it together, how geopolitics affected fashion and affected Black models. There's a moment in the film when someone describes why and how the runway suddenly became full of white models, just to be blunt. Would you explain that, Frédéric?

Frédéric Tcheng: Yes. I love how Bethann phrased in the film. She says, "Do you want to know why everything changed?" I said, "Yes." She says, "Because the Berlin wall fell." What happened is that the Soviet block opened up in the late '80s or early '90s, and suddenly you had all these Eastern European and Russian models that were very eager to work. It was a new aesthetic, and some in the fashion world just latched onto this new aesthetic and wanted just a coat hanger.

That's what Bethann was referring to. The glamor was gone, and it was all about uniformity. Kim [unintelligible 00:09:57] in the film says it was almost like fascist uniformity. It was like a new look. It lasted for too many years for no one to say anything. That person to say something was Bethann. She really came and had that difficult conversation with the fashion industry.

Bethann Hardison: In truth, to add, Alison, is because we had already been there before. If we had never been there before, maybe I would have said nothing. I would say, "Oh, this is their ballgame." We had already been there. The runway model was queen and a lot of great ones were Black, of color. It was just difficult to see that the industry had brought in new people, scouts, casting directors, stylists, that latched onto the design homes and houses and they start dictating how things should be. They were brand new to the industry as far as I was concerned.

Alison Stewart: To catch people up, there was a very direct open letter that you and several of the other folks in the industry signed. You held this press conference/town halls come to Jesus moment with everybody in the fashion industry. I want to play a clip from this. In this clip, you'll hear from Naomi Campbell, then Iman, then Bethann, and then a cranky fashion agent. This is part of this town hall that was held to address the idea of lack of representation in the fashion industry. Let's take a listen.

Naomi Campbell: I've been extremely lucky and blessed in my generation of girls with Cindy, Linda, Christie. Christie used to say to [unintelligible 00:11:32] Helmut Lang "If you don't use it, Naomi, you don't get us." My girls stuck up for me. That's how I got into [unintelligible 00:11:40] Helmut Lang, Prada.

Iman: They were true posse. This is a huge industry that has no union. Models don't have a union. They don't have a voice. Nobody speaks for them.

Bethann Hardison: The fact of it is, is we have to say, where does it start? Does it start with model agents? The model agent says, "Well, you don't understand what it's like, how hard it is to get--

Speaker 6: I think a model agent has to talk now.

Bethann Hardison: I'm going to. I'm going to get you-- What do you think I'm doing?

Speaker 6: I think it's odd.

Bethann Hardison: No, no, no, no. I'm setting you up, babe. I'm going for it.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: That is Bethann Hardison. What was something that came out of that day, Bethann?

Bethann Hardison: Well, one thing, all the casting directors would say to the model agencies, "No Blacks, no ethnics. We're not seeing Black girls this season." The model agencies were like hands were tied. What could they do? They could only tell the people that they represented, there was only a few in each agency, "I'm sorry." It was hard for the model agencies to go out and look for more girls of color, any color, because the industry was already saying quite often, "No, no, no," so it gave the model agencies a little bit more of difficulty in saying to others, "Let me just find someone else different for you," because they were always saying, "No Blacks, no ethnics."

Well, after that town hall meeting in September 2007, I had the press there. I had many people. Once it hit the press and all, it was never said again. Ever again in the history of time since 2007 did they no longer say no Blacks, no ethnic. Now they might have performed it, but they didn't say it. What came out of that meeting also, the model agencies had a little bit more support and so they can start to look for better girls. Girls started coming out of Dominican Republic and different girls of color started to work.

Alison Stewart: Bethann, people know this about you, that you started your own modeling agency. When did you decide to make the move to being an agent and why?

Bethann Hardison: It was not my choice, Alison. I tell you, these people around you just push you to do things. You just want to go lay down somewhere and they say, "No, no, you should do this." I started the model agency based on the fact that I was at an agency and there was a French foreman who wanted to start an agency in New York and she asked me to do so. In the end of the day, I wind up doing it on my own. It was the best thing I had done.

Surely, it's, I think, another stripe to my lapel, I would say, but in the end of the day, it wasn't something that was really my choice, but I did well at it. It helped hearing all that was being said because I had a white model agency. I was a Black owner. I had an agency that was primarily white kids and Asian kids, Latin kids. I mixed it up, but I had the majority so that way I could always hear what was going on in the industry. I was competitive to my white counterpart.

Alison Stewart: What did you--

Bethann Hardison: I want to say one other thing else just to be clear. The letter that went out wasn't signed by anyone but me. I was the only one who wrote it. I just had a backup fan. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: That's right. [laughs] That's a good way to put it. Frédéric, whose career was made by Bethann? We'll talk about her like she's not here.

Frédéric Tcheng: [laughs] Well, so many people, but I think one person in particular is Tyson Beckford. Tyson Beckford, his career just blew up and he became this superstar. It was amazing to see the archival footage of people, the mobs that were waiting for him at the malls everywhere he went. He became the face of Ralph Lauren for several years. Bethann got him a contract which was really hard to get and it was unprecedented. Tyson, he was in New York last weekend. He was celebrating with us the release of the film in New York and it's incredible. He spoke during the Q&A and he is so grateful. His interview was very emotional because he owes a huge part of his life to Bethann.

Alison Stewart: Bethann, it was really moving to me because the idea that Tyson would be the all-American young man in the all-American clothing, I think that it was radical and needed--

Bethann Hardison: It came along at the right time too because the B-Boy was happening, hip hop was happening. It had a great audience out there, and not even trying for Ralph at that moment. It was just serendipitous. Everything came together in such an interesting way. Many people think this was the first Black that Ralph ever-- Now, Ralph had actually booked Black models before. It's just that at this moment in time, him putting that red hoodie with the POLO letters in front and his advertising campaign focused on Tyson, that just changed the game.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about the film, Invisible Beauty. My guests are Bethann Hardison and Frédéric Tcheng. Bethann, your son, for my generation, we all know him from a different world, Kadeem Hardison, and he's one of the voices in the film. You are very candid about times your relationship was fraught with your son and it's difficult to balance being a mom and having this big a career as you had. When you look back on your career and motherhood, what's something you think you did really well and what's something that if you could change it, you would?

Bethann Hardison: Well, it's good that you asked this, Alison. I'm so pleased that you did because it was never-- I guess the word fraught throws me a curve ball anyway, but many people think that because when they watch the film, the way it's told, it's just that he just drops out. He just disappears and you just don't hear from him for long periods of time. I don't know if it's anything else I could have done. I had my son when I was quite young and I just didn't want to fail at anything. Once I said, "Come on. We got to come live--

He would live with me until he was three and then he went to live with his grandmother. I think it was just time that you just do the best you can. I don't know what we all could do better, but I was determined to give him something to do while I had something to do. That's why I suggested that he become an actor [laughs] because I know he loved Starsky & Hutch back in the day and he would stay and look at the TV all the time when he had it. I convinced him that he could consider that.

I had him actually do a little bit of a monologue at home. He did it so well that I said, "Okay, you should consider being an actor. Now when people say, 'What do you want to be?' You say, 'I want to be an actor.'" He is a good actor. He winded up coming to live with me and going off to classes and studying in school and getting an agent and going off very fast at the age of 14. I think 14 years old, he did his first film on PBS and he just went on. It's really wonderful, the life. I think it's very interesting when you're a parent.

Many people watching this film, especially the Q&A. I've had women talk to me about that. Them being a professional woman and having a child, and a male child too and the difficulty it is for them in that same sense. I think in a lot of ways, you just do the best you can. I was a good mom. He says I am. He says tell the world I was a great mother, but in the end of the day, it's not an easy journey when you're out there doing it by yourself.

Alison Stewart: Somebody actually tweeted in. They wanted to know about the status of your relationship.

Bethann Hardison: Oh, the status of mine and his.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Bethann Hardison: That's the part funny thing about it. We're always cool.

Alison Stewart: Good.

Bethann Hardison: Kadeem was at the theater last weekend and he went out and he hosted for me because I had to go to Milan. He went and hosted something in LA for a bunch of-- They had a brunch in support of about film. We're always good. It's just that he disappears. That, for me, as a mother who likes him so much, the guy is so funny. We have such a good time. When Kadeem just doesn't call back or doesn't speak, it's just a missing. We're good. We're always good. Thank you for asking.

Alison Stewart: Sure. Of course. Frédéric, you've done several documentaries about the fashion world and the fashion industry. You know it. What was something you learned about this industry, working on this film, but maybe you didn't really know or understand fully before?

Frédéric Tcheng: I learned so much. For me, this is the most meaningful film that I've done for myself as a human being. It was such a journey, just getting to know Bethann and her story and just getting to be so close to her by co-directing. It's totally different. I see it as another facet of the fashion world. Again, this is not a fashion film per se, like Bethann says it, because I'm not really interested in fashion per se. I'm interested in the humans of fashion. Bethann is such an inspiring human. For me, the film has much more to do about civil rights, woman's story. It has so many different layers to it, and fashion is just one of them.

Alison Stewart: Bethann, I heard you say you just had to go to Milan. I heard you drop that. One, do you still enjoy going to see the shows?

Bethann Hardison: No.

Alison Stewart: You don't? Oh. Did you see anything you liked?

Bethann Hardison: Yes, I had to go for Gucci because I work with Gucci, and I am very happy that I was able to go. I really am. It was quick. Don't mind me, everyone, because everyone knows me and everyone knows I grew up in the garment business and I grew up through all of this. I like certain designer shows, but they all look good. I love watching them on video now. I don't need to go to a show. Now I'm not going to get invited to anything. You see, I just made a mistake there.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: No, they want you in the row. They want you in the front row. They want the [crosstalk]

Bethann Hardison: I had to go see Gucci because I work with Gucci. It's a new creative director. It was very, very-- a lot of pressure and a lot of expectation. It was wonderful to see and I was happy to say that I did like it. He's on a journey. I understand he had to take over something that's quite different than was before, but I appreciate what he did.

Alison Stewart: The name of the film is Invisible Beauty. It is a multilayered film. I encourage you to go see it. It's at the Film Forum here in the city. It's the Claridge in Montclair. My guests have been co-directors, Frédéric Tcheng and Bethann Hardison. Thank you both for your time.

Frédéric Tcheng: Thank you.

Bethann Hardison: Thank you. Thank you very much, Alison.

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Alison Stewart: A new podcast is about people who can't keep weight off their minds. Host Ronald Young Jr. uses personal storytelling and expert guides to examine our culture's weird relationship with weight. He joins us next, and we'll take your calls.

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