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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. You know Rick Rubin as the producer that practically every artist wants to work with at some point in their career. Somehow, Rubin has the ability to unlock something in an artist, a deeper creativity or musical feeling that they can't channel on their own. The list of his collaborators is impressive and diverse--Tom Petty, Johnny Cash, Jay-Z, even the new Kesha record.

Who can forget his history and connection to New York, when he founded Def Jam Records in his NYU dorm room, and then went on to produce the early albums of Hip-Hop greats, like LL Cool J, Run DMC and the Beastie Boys. On top of being a music producer, Rick Rubin is now an author. His book, The Creative Act: A Way of Being came out at the beginning of 2023, and it's a how-to guide on creativity, with short essays on his creative process, as well as his relationship with spirituality.

Around the book's release, Rick Rubin joined us from Costa Rica, and I began by asking him about the cover of the book, which features a thin black circle around a small black dot, a little bit like a vinyl record.

Rick Rubin: It's an image that has spoken to me over a period of time. It's an image that's open to interpretation. The reason I chose it, is it's the alchemical symbol of the sun, but you don't need to know that to experience it for what it is. I've showed it to different people who've looked at it have said, "Oh, why is there a target on the cover of the book?" An eye doctor asked, "Why is there an eye on the cover of the book?" A computer programmer is like, "Oh, why is there a binary on the cover of the book?"

I've had a handful of different interpretations that-- It's funny because the people who interpret it don't interpret it as if it might be those things. They know exactly what it is. It's fascinating that we put our story onto things that we see.

Alison Stewart: Then when you turn the book over, it's just the circle without the dot in the middle.

Rick Rubin: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Is that so we can think about what we might want to put in that circle?

Rick Rubin: It could be that. That started as an artistic accident, and it was given to me, somebody printed one. It wasn't a book, it was just a pamphlet, and it had the symbol on the front, and it had a circle on the back, and it was a mistake. I saw it and I felt like, "Oh, this invites me to participate more than if it's a repeat. One, it's an invitation to step in."

Again, happy accident and led to an interesting detail in the design of the book.

Alison Stewart: Have you had that happen in your career? A happy accident, which led you down a completely different path than the one you you planned?

Rick Rubin: It happens all the time. I would say on a daily basis, where we'll either go in completely open without any ideas, or if we go in with an idea, very quickly we'd learn that there are other possibilities beyond what we had in mind. I'm very open to following the threads in whatever directions they take us. I think if we hold our version too tightly, it limits what it can be.

Alison Stewart: It's like the old saying, if you hold a fist, nothing gets in your hand.

Rick Rubin: It's true.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Rick Rubin. The name of the book is The Creative Act: A Way of Being. How did actually sitting down and putting your thoughts about creativity to paper? I don't know if you handwrote it or you typed it, but how did getting it down in this form, in the written word, affect how you think about creativity, if at all?

Rick Rubin: Yes. I learned a tremendous amount through the process. One of the things that I would say is my biggest takeaway for me, was my-- I came to learn through writing the book that creativity happens in different phases. The phases in the book are called the seed phase, the experimentation phase, the craft phase, and then the completion phase, or could be the editing phase, depending on what you want to call it.

I am not a deadline-oriented person, I do my best work with a sense of freedom, not feeling like it has to be done at a certain time, because my goal is for it to be the best it could be, not the best it could be by that date. I tend to have pretty open-ended projects for over the course of my life. That's the way I've worked. When I came to realize, when I broke down the steps of the process, that for the seed phase, that's wide open, and that takes as long as it takes. For the experimentation phase, that's wide open. It takes as long as it takes. By the time you're in the craft phase, you have a good idea of the thing you're making. It's no longer wide open.

The idea of setting a deadline, even for oneself to get through the craft phase and the completion phase, could actually be a help, not a hindrance. Whereas up until the time I worked on the book, I would've only thought of it as a hindrance, but I realized once the code is cracked, and once you know the thing you're making, if you are open-ended in the time that you have, you may never finish. You may spin around and spend a long time in the 98%, 99%, 100% range that no one other than you would ever notice the difference, and that could be for years, and I've done that.

This is speaking from experience. I've spent years working on things that were done years before. It was helpful to me and now in the projects I work on. I'm completely open until I really know what it is. Once I really know what it is, then I can say, "Okay, I'm going to try to finish it by this time." Just for myself, just help, and if I don't, I am aware. I have a sense of-- Creatively, I'm behind schedule because all of the magic part of the creation has already happened, and now I'm only at the more physical process of getting it to stay together, whatever it is. That's not a forever endeavor.

Alison Stewart: You write about the experimenter and the finisher. In their nature, many artists lean towards one of two categories, experimenters and finishers. Experimenters are partial to dreaming and play, finding it more difficult to complete and release their work. Finishers are the mirror image, a backward reflection. They move quickly to the end point with immediate clarity. They're less interested in exploring the possibilities and alternatives that the experimentation and craft phase can suggest. Each might find it helpful to borrow from the other.

Rick Rubin: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What can that experimenter borrow from the finisher and vice versa?

Rick Rubin: The example that I gave. I'm an experimenter. Learning that once the code is cracked, I can finish it, and I can give myself a deadline to finish it, and that could be a good thing, not a bad thing. That was my version. Then an example of an artist I've worked with who I would say was a finisher would be Ed Sheeran, who would come into the studio. He'd play a song once, it'd be great, and in his mind it's like, "Okay, what's next?" He would never-- At the time that I got to work with him, stop and see, is there more, is there a way to do more? Is there a better version? Is there a alternative version?

Through our working together, it opened the possibility of trying new things. Many artists. Again, there are no rules. For an artist to be able to play something and think it's good right off the bat, it be good and think, "Okay, I'm done with my work." It's astounding and beautiful to see. I wish I had more of that. I have less of that. I have more of the, "How about if we try it like this? How about if we try it like this?"

Alison Stewart: My guest is Rick Rubin. The name of his book is The Creative Act: A Way of Being. It Is out now. The epigraph in this book is a quote from American painter Robert Henri. It reads, "The object isn't to make art, it's to be in that wonderful state which makes art inevitable." What are some ways that we can get into that state where one is receptive to creative impulses or thoughts?

Rick Rubin: One of them is not holding our ideas too tightly. Being open to letting the process dictate where we go. It's fine to have an idea to get started, but once you're started, if it finds a new direction, an unexpected direction, a direction opposite of what you set out to do, but has some momentum to it, and you see something interesting happen, allow that to happen.

Another is to live in the world in an aware state where we're always looking for clues. We're always looking for inspiration everywhere. What's the thing that we notice that no one else notices? What's the thing that in the ordinary-- there's a great podcast called 99% Invisible. The whole premise of it is, there's this invisible world of information that none of us pay attention to, but if you focus on it, it's really interesting, and you learn cool stuff.

That's a great example of living with an awareness that most people let go by, and that extends beyond just the symbols of where the gas lines are, which is something that you'd learn from 99% Invisible, but out into the natural world. What are the things that speak to you and why? How does the light change over the course of the day? Where are the shadows at 10:00 AM versus 2:00 PM? How does the color change as light changes?

Being open to the subtle changes that are always going on around us and allowing our breath to be taken away, because when you pay attention, you realize there's so much magnificence going on around us at all times. We're just blind to it because we're focused on the thing we're focused on, and we're going to our next appointment, or we're looking at our phones, but if we're really taking in our surroundings, really listening to what our friends have to say to us or overhearing something in a coffee shop, if you're just paying attention to what's going on around you, there's so much interesting information out there that we're missing.

Alison Stewart: You make a point in the book that you should read, you should consume art, you should put yourself in situations where you can be on the receiving end of creativity, but you really have to be careful about what you let in as well.

Rick Rubin: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What advice would you give to someone on how to curate the incoming stimuli?

Rick Rubin: There's an infinite number of choices in what we consume, and we have a tiny, tiny bandwidth of what we can actually take in, so if we're choosing, why would we read the news with the horrors of the day when we could read an illuminated work of beauty from 100 years ago that stood the test of time, from 100 years ago to today, from 300 years ago to today. Why look at Instagram when you can go to a museum and see beautiful works of art that have decades of appreciation?

Now, I'm not arguing against seeing new things as well. That's not the point. The point is to calibrate yourself with the great works of all time, the greatest films ever made, and the cannon's always changing. It's not in stone what that is, but if there's a director that you love, let's say you love Alfred Hitchcock, and you learn that Alfred Hitchcock loved Luis Bunuel, watch Luis Buñuel movies for inspiration. Find who your creative heroes were inspired by, and--

Alison Stewart: Except the one where they cut the eyeball. I can't watch that one. [chuckles]

Rick Rubin: It's Un Chien Andalou. That's a rough one.

Alison Stewart: It's a rough one.

Rick Rubin: Brutal.

Alison Stewart: What have you read lately that you would put in this category of incoming information that has helped you feel creative?

Rick Rubin: This morning I was reading Quentin Tarantino's new book. It's called Cinema Speculation. It's just making me fall in love with movies again. I watched lots of old movies growing up, and it seems like as our culture has moved forward, long form films have fallen by the wayside in what I watch. I still watch documentaries, but I almost never watch movies anymore. Listening to Quentin talk about the great movies of the '50s, '60s, '70s, some of which I've seen, many of which I haven't. It's reinvigorating me and exciting me about watching movies again in a way that I haven't felt in a while.

Alison Stewart: We'll be back with more of my conversation with Rick Rubin, including his thoughts on the creative power of New York City. That's after the break.

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This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart. We're back with more of my interview with Rick Rubin about his new book, The Creative Act: A Way of Being. Let's listen to a clip of Rick reading the first page of his new book for the audio version of this project.

Rick Rubin: Nothing in this book is known to be true. It's a reflection on what I've noticed, not facts so much as thoughts. Some ideas may resonate, others may not. A few may awaken an inner knowing you forgot you had. Use what's helpful, let go of the rest. Each of these moments is an invitation to further inquiry looking deeper, zooming out or in, opening possibilities for a new way of being.

Alison Stewart: That was Rick Rubin reading from his audiobook, and I asked Rick if he thought creativity could be taught.

Rick Rubin: Yes. Yes, and it can be, let's say, acquired, because I don't know that you necessarily need to be taught it, or maybe you could teach it to yourself. In some ways, the book is a manual on how to teach yourself how to do it. The reason I'm saying that is so much of what creativity's about is finding your way to do it. When we get taught something, we usually get taught someone else's way. I'm wary of you using the word taught for creativity. You can learn methods, but the real work is getting in touch with yourself, and your own taste, and what excites you, and what moves you, and what makes you lean forward, and what takes your breath away, and then finding ways to share that, but it's something that we all can do.

It's something we all do, do. Every single person we're talking to is a creative being. It's the nature of you can't be alive as a human being without being creative. It's part of the deal. We make creative decisions all day long, all day long. What the artist does is puts more into the choices being made, and anyone can do that. It's just an example of the yarn store. It's like you have to notice it. First notice it, and then once you notice it, dive in.

Alison Stewart: We're thinking as we're talking about this, we don't have to think about creativity on the grand scale of I'm going to produce the biggest record act in the world. You could be creative in your kitchen tonight.

Rick Rubin: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: You could be creatively in the way, you get dressed this morning if you're a bus driver with the socks you wear.

Rick Rubin: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: It can really be applied across the board I think.

Rick Rubin: It's for everyone. It's finding a better route home. It's all of those. We're doing it all the time. It's just doing it with more of a sense of not always going with the default and making considered choices.

Alison Stewart: Why is that important? Why is that important to us as a culture?

Rick Rubin: Well, it's not important, but it's what makes it art. It's the difference. What makes it an artistic choice is, real-world example, I need a new sink. I can go to the hardware store, and the first sink that'll fit the hole that it goes into, I could say, "Okay, that one will fit. Let's get that," or I could look at every sink I could find anywhere in the world and decide, how do I really want to interact with the sink? What are my options? What could the sink be like? That's my today's example because right before I got on this with you, I was looking for a sink.

Many people would just say, oh, it just has to fit in this hole, that's it. The more creative decision or considered decision, again, we don't have to do it, but if we are privileged enough to do it, it does improve our quality of life.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Rick Rubin. The name of the book is The Creative Act: A Way of Being. You and I are about the same vintage. Do you think is it harder to be creative now because of distraction, or do all the tools available to us make it easier?

Rick Rubin: I think there just differences, but I wouldn't say harder or easy. I think it's always hard and it's always easy. It is both of those things at all times, though it changes, but I wouldn't say harder or easier.

Alison Stewart: What's been a change that you have embraced? Is it technology? People like to talk about social media in a bad way, but boy, there's some really creative people on Instagram, doing some really creative things.

Rick Rubin: Absolutely. Let me think of what I've embraced lately. It's creative. I suppose I spent most of my life making music, and I've started working on other things like the book. I made this TV thing with Paul McCartney called McCartney 3,2,1. I don't know if you call it a documentary. It's a different thing. I'm interested in finding other ways of expressing my creative spirit because it's fun. I like the idea of looking at different modes of creativity.

Alison Stewart: How do you help people get over doubt, and doubts about their own creativity?

Rick Rubin: It depends on the case. I would start by saying I listen to their work closely and I give them very honest feedback. In giving honest feedback, the key to getting honest feedback is it's never about the person, it's always about the work. That we are, in fact, a team working together for this thing outside of either of us to be the best that it could be.

This thing outside of either of us may have originated with the maker of it, but now it's this thing, and now we're working together to say what's the best version of this thing, and we talk it through.

That's one way. Another is to lower the stakes, is to say what we're making isn't really important. Most artists who make things think, "I am making this. This is the most important work of my life. This is the thing that's going to define my entire life." It makes it an unrealistic task. In reality, the things that we make are diary entries. They're true examples or reflections of where we are in that moment. That's all. It's only until you do the next diary entry tomorrow. That's all that the diary entry is.

I would say the way to know it's time to share a work of art with the world is when you're excited to share it with one friend. If you make something and you're excited enough to show it to your friend, chances are, it's ready to be released to the world, and very few of us do that, very few of us at the time that we're showing to our friends, it may be years away before we think it's ready to show to the world. In reality, if you're willing to show it to your friend, that's the best barometer of it's ready.

Alison Stewart: Obviously, we're in Soho. We're in New York City. This is where you got your start in college. What is something that is uniquely creative about New York City?

Rick Rubin: I think the volume of information is really good. You can see from the most obscure to the most mainstream. Everything's available in New York. In terms of filling up your data stores, New York's a great place to do it. New York's a great place to be young, unexperienced. I had a very lucky upbringing in that I was brought up an hour outside of Manhattan on the beach, so I got to experience nature from a young age. I got to want to be in New York City and not be in New York City, and that was really a good thing because many of my friends who grew up in New York City had a more narrow view of the world than mine, because in New York City you know what's cool.

Where I came from, nobody knew what was cool. People just liked what they liked. I got to see what regular people liked, and then I got to see what the people in New York liked, and they were two different things, and I got to experience both of those. I wasn't too bound by being in Manhattan, but I was close enough to get all of the benefit to museums, the theater, the classical radio station that I listen to, with my Aunt Carol, beautiful, beautiful experience, and my dream was to live in New York City. I went to school in New York City, and then assumed I would live there my whole life.

Then for whatever reason, after college, I ended up moving to California, which was an odd choice, because I never liked California, and I don't even really know how it happened. I didn't move there, but I went there, and I didn't leave, so after five years, I realized I guess I live here now. Every time I've moved in my life, it has always been like that where I moved from in Los Angeles to Malibu, but I didn't really do that I bought a house to go to on weekends, and then I went through the first weekend that I never left. Then after several years, like, "I guess I live here now." It reveals itself. I'm not sure why I told you that story.

Alison Stewart: I know you have to go soon. How do you choose a project at this point in your career?

Rick Rubin: I would say it's like falling in love. You feel a connection to it. You can see a potential that you're excited to be part of, and you can see that there's something here, and I can help this thing be the best it could be. I like what this thing is. It doesn't even have to be something that I like. Sometimes I get called in where someone will come to me, and they'll present something to me as, "We need help." If I feel like I can be helpful, I want to be helpful. If someone chooses to come to me, and I feel like I can be helpful, I trust that they're coming to me for the right reason.

Alison Stewart: That was my conversation with music producer Rick Rubin about his book, The Creative Act: A Way of Being. That's All Of It for this hour, but keep listening for another hour dedicated to some of our favorite creative icons, Ruth Carter, George Saunders and Isabel Allende. That's on the way.

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