[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you so much for spending part of your day with us. Coming up on the show later this week, the media meltdown. There have been layoffs at places like the LA Times, NBC News, and Sports Illustrated, and that's just this month. Tomorrow on the show, I'll speak with Jon Allsop, who writes The Media Today newsletter for the Columbia Journalism Review. We'll talk about why the industry is in tough shape and what steps we can take to protect a thriving free press. That is in our future. Let's get this hour started with a conversation about how to fight right.

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While it's not exactly fun to fight with a loved one, it is important to tackle conflicts in a relationship. In fact, my next guests say that when done right, fights can be productive and lead to understanding. The thing is, when tensions are running high, one might say something hurtful. Through their research, Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman note that couples often hone in on little things about their relationship when they're really upset about some much bigger things. Usually different ideas about what a shared future looks like and different ideas about how to get there. Joining me now are clinical psychologists and founders of the research center at the University of Washington known as the Gottman Love Lab, Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman, and Dr. John Gottman. Their new book is called Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection. Thank you so much for coming to the studio, Julie and John. Nice to meet you in person.

Dr. John Gottman: Thank you, Alison.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Thank you, Alison. We're glad to be here.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we'd like to open the phones to you. If you have any stories about how you've navigated conflicts with your partner, what made things better, maybe something that made something worse, you can give us a call. Our phone lines are open, 212-433-9692, 212-433 WNYC. You can call in. You may join us on the air. You can also text to us at that number. Social media is available as well @All Of It WNYC if you prefer to remain anonymous. Maybe you have any questions about getting through difficult mismatches or miscommunications in a relationship.

Our phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433 WNYC. You can join us on air. You can also text to that number if that is more convenient for you. 212-433 WNYC. Julie, you're right that the goal of your work isn't to assist couples in preventing or avoiding conflict. When it comes to conflict, what is the goal?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: The goal as you pointed out Alison, so wisely, is understanding. What we have seen in the successful couples that we've studied, and we've studied over 3,000 couples following them as long as 20 minutes, or 20 years, rather, is that really successful couples talk about their own positions on an issue in order to gain understanding. What they also do is they share their own background history that's related to their position on the issue, which creates compassion. Once you have understanding and compassion, it's so much easier to arrive at some kind of solution or compromise.

Alison Stewart: John, where does the instinct to avoid conflict come from?

Dr. John Gottman: I think it comes from childhood. I remember being nine years old and lying in bed late at night and hearing my parents argue. It's terrifying. The last thing you want to do is have a fight with somebody you love because it can lead to disaster.

Alison Stewart: What happens in a relationship when both parties aim to avoid conflict? That seems like it could lead to a different kind of disaster, Julie.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Well, possibly, but you know we studied couples who were avoidant, couples who were more rational about their thinking about a conflict, and couples who were more volatile, more emotional. The avoidant couples also had good relationships. What they would do is they might present their own position on an issue, but they wouldn't talk about their emotions very, very briefly, if anything, then they would agree to disagree. It turns out that that actually was a style that could be successful in a relationship. The place it got difficult is when an avoidant person was paired with a very intense, passionate, volatile person. When that volatile person brought up their position intensely, it was very scary for the avoidant person, and they had to arrive at a way to talk about their conflict that met in the middle.

Alison Stewart: Something I thought was really fascinating, and it's early on in the book, is you write that conflict early in a relationship doesn't mean it's doomed. It actually can be a sign of longevity, a possible longevity.

Dr. John Gottman: That's right.

Alison Stewart: Because I think people might think like, "Oh gosh, we're already at it." [laughs] We just started together. How can early conflict be helpful down the road?

Dr. John Gottman: Well, one of the things we discovered in our apartment lab that Julie and I designed was that in the beginning of a relationship, almost all the conflicts are about trust. Can I trust you? Will you be there for me? Am I more important than your friends? Am I more important than your mother? What if I'm grumpy? Can I count on you? Can I count on you to be sexually faithful to me? All about trust. Those early conflicts really establish the basis of trust that allow people to go forward and build a life together, have children together if they want that, and build a family.

Alison Stewart: I want to hear about the apartment lab. Would you describe the apartment lab for us?

[laughter]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Yes, we had so much fun designing the apartment lab. Basically, it looked like a little B&B. It had a sofa, a bed, it had a little kitchenette where you could make your own meals, a television set, newspapers, magazines, and couples would come in for 24 hours and just do everything that they would do normally at home, for example, on a Sunday afternoon. However, one little distinction, and that was that there were four cameras bolted to the walls videotaping them every waking moment. They were hooked up to physiological instruments that measured their heart rate, their skin conductivity, their perspiration, and their respiration. Once in a while we take their urine, we take their blood, but other than that it was a perfect B&B.

Alison Stewart: What were you hoping questions would be answered?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: What we were really looking at is when couples are relaxing at home are there predictors that demonstrated something about just hanging out, just being friends together that ended up separating these couples and making them very unhappy and it took us years to analyze that data, but we did have significant findings that were super important in discovering what cemented couples friendships and what created more passion and good sex. Not that we watch the good sex, however,

[laughter]

Though that would have been interesting, but anyway, but we found definite connections between their reports of their passion and sex and how happy they were with that. In particular, how much they turned towards one another, either verbally or expressively, when the other person made a bid for connection. That was a very key finding.

Alison Stewart: Literally turned toward, like physically as well as emotionally?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Not necessarily, no. It was something very, very simple. For example, if one person was looking out a window and a beautiful boat went by, this was on a nice little stream of water, and they might say, "Wow, look at that beautiful boat." The partner could respond in one of three ways. Either they could completely ignore the other person, which we call turning away, or they could say something hostile, like, "Would you stop interrupting me? I'm trying to read." Or they could say, "Oh, wow, that is nice."

That last one is turning towards. We found that successful couples when we followed them down the road years and years, we found that the successful couples turned towards each other's bids for connection 86% of the time. The unsuccessful couples who ended up unhappy or separating only 33% of the time. The rest they turned away or against their partner. Look at that difference, 86% versus 33, made a huge difference.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman. The name of their new book is Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection. Our phone lines are full, as you can imagine. Let's talk to Edith calling in from Weston, Connecticut. Good afternoon, Edith.

Edith: Hi, good afternoon. I hope you can hear me.

Alison Stewart: I can. Yes, go for it.

Edith: Wonderful. My husband and I have been married for 10 years, and one of the things we did when we first started dating was he liked to dance tango and I learned to dance tango with him. There were many, many, many hard moments because tango is a dance where you have to be in connection with the other person. I don't know if you notice people often close their eyes sometimes when they're dancing and it's because you have to be so tuned into the other person to figure out what they're asking you to do. My husband was the leader obviously because I didn't know how to do it and we're both passionate people. We're both alphas.

The most important thing and I noticed it so clearly was learning how to follow, learning how to take someone else's intention and say, "I'd like you to do this" and say, "Okay. I'll do that." As someone who is very alpha, learning how to follow was a huge, huge thing. Once I did, I noticed even in my work it made me a better leader. Learning how to follow not lead. I think it really made a huge difference in our relationship and we still dance quite often and it's a big, big connection.

Alison Stewart: I love hearing that you still dance. Edith, thank you so much for calling in. Did you have any response or reaction to what Edith was saying?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Yes. Edith, you are putting your finger on an incredibly important finding that we had in our research as well which is it's very important to accept influence from each other. That's exactly what you're talking about. When you follow your partner's lead even in a tango a different dance or making decisions, are you willing to accept influence from your partner and their position on an issue or their position on a dance floor. The fact that you could do that is really wonderful. It's also equally important and sometimes even more important if you're a heterosexual or a gay couple, for the man to accept influence.

Sometimes because of the traditional roles in our culture it's a little more difficult for men to do that particularly when they've been raised to be the big decision makers in a family. If they can accept influence as well as their partner, you have a much better chance of fighting right and having a good relationship.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Kristin from Morris Plains, New Jersey. Hi, Kristin. Thank you for calling in.

Kristin: Hi Alison, John and Julie. Thank you for taking my call. I am a therapist in private practice and I love your work and I use it often. I don't work with couples often but when I do I use the four horsemen and et cetera. My question though is, I have struggled in my marriage communicating with my husband. I've been married for 22 years and it's hard to approach topics with him that are sensitive without him feeling "attacked." I have been hearing that same phrase repeated and I've tried to change my language. I know a lot of the things to say but they don't come out the right way when they come from me. Any advice?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: One thing that I would suggest, there's a couple of things. One first of all is when you are not having a conflict, when you're just hanging out together, maybe you're having coffee and a pastry, you might want to ask your partner, "Is there a way that I can bring up an issue that will help you to not feel criticized or attacked? What's the best way for you to hear something I'm thinking about or feeling that I really want to discuss with you?" Ask his opinion about that. That would be one thing that I would suggest. Another is perhaps preface bringing up your issue with, "Honey, I do not want to criticize you here, I'm not trying to attack you or put you down in any way.

Let me describe how I feel about a particular situation and something that I would need that would really help you to feel closer to me and me to feel closer to you. Are you willing to hear it now?" Try that.

Kristin: I like it.

[laughter]

Okay. Thank you.

Dr. John Gottman: Sounds good.

Alison Stewart: Kristin, thank you so much. John, Kristin mentioned the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse that you write about. Catch up the rest of the audience what the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse are in relationships.

Dr. John Gottman: Yes, the disasters of relationship. I was one of those when I started doing this research. [chuckles]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Before he met me.

Dr. John Gottman: Right, before he met Julie. They start the conflict by saying, "I've been watching you and let me tell you what's wrong with you." They phrase the problem in the relationship as a defect in their partner's personality. We call that criticism, that's the first Horsemen of the Apocalypse. It turns out that criticism is much less in couples who are happily married and stay together, but it does exist. When your partner is critical, how do you respond? Do you respond defensively by counterattacking or by acting like an innocent victim? If you respond defensively, that's the second Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Even if your partner is critical, in a great relationship, people listen to it.

They say, "Oh, that's interesting. Tell me more." My hero is this lawyer who, on a tape, was helping his wife identify what about his personality made her the angriest. He's such an amazing guy. He was saying, "Is it the way I talk?" She said, "Yes." "What is it about the way I talk?" She said, "It's like the king has spoken." "Oh, do I sound authoritarian?" "Yes, you do. You sound like you're the authority on things." "I guess I can be that way." He was non-defensive. That is amazing. If you take responsibility even for a small part of the problem, then you've really diffused the conflict. That what the masters were doing. Criticism is the first Horseman, defensive is the second.

The third is contempt, which is criticism with an air of superiority, really putting your partner down. If you feel better than your partner in any dimension, even correcting your partner's grammar when they're angry with you, that's the put down. What we discovered was that contempt not only predicted the demise of the relationship, but it also predicted how many infectious illnesses the recipient of contempt would have in the next six years. If your partner's contempt shows to you, it really erodes your immune system.

The glazers who did research at Ohio State University actually took bits of blood from people as they were arguing with one another and showed that by looking at our stress hormones that get secreted, cortisol and adrenaline, they could predict divorce 10 years later. The final Horseman is stonewalling, which is emotional withdrawal from the relationship, not giving the usual signals that you're listening and paying attention.

Alison Stewart: We are discussing fight right, how successful couples turn conflict into connection. We're speaking with the Gottmans. Our phone lines are pretty full, but if you want to join the conversation, you'd like to tell us about something that you and your partner have done, the way that you fight. That's right. We'd love to hear about it. Or perhaps you have a question about something you're going through right now, 212-4339-692, 212-433 WNYC. After the break, we'll talk about this is my favorite, the stages of a fight [laughs] and where we all tend to go wrong after the break.

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Alison Stewart: You're listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests this hour are Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman. We are talking about their new book, Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection. Of course, you know that they're clinical psychologists and co-founders of the Gottman Love Lab. In the book, you have the stages of a fight. Every fight has the same basic structure. It looks like this. First, we build an agenda. One or both partners express their concerns. Second, we try to persuade each other to come over to our side. Third, we attempt to reach a compromise. Julie, where does this go wrong?

That's a roadmap you could follow, but where do people tend to get off base?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Before they even begin.

[laughter]

[clears throat] First of all, a lot of people will keep their resentments inside until they want to explode. Before they even bring up their issue, if they're sitting on a whole volcano of resentments, that's a problem, number one. They may end up saying, "Honey, you are a terrible lover in bed. You don't even bring home enough money, and third, the worst of all, you don't even recycle." You don't want to do that.

Then, how do you bring up an issue? John pointed out the four horsemen, and the ones that are the worst for bringing up a problem are criticism and contempt, because immediately, that's going to sabotage you getting listened to. The other person is going to get defensive, and they're not going to hear a word you say. There's a whole different way to bring up an issue in which you describe yourself, describe your own feelings about what situation, which is stated neutrally, and then you describe a positive need you have.

By that, what I mean is you're not telling your partner what you don't want or you don't like. Instead, you're telling your partner how they can shine for you, what you really do want from them. That's number one. Number two, in the second stage, where you're moving into persuasion, one of the big problems is people may do that too fast before they really go deeper into understanding each other's position on the issue and where that position comes from.

We have a method of one person interviewing the other, and then vice versa. To answer particular questions, there are six of them that really deepen your understanding of your partner. For example, are there values or beliefs that you have related to your position on this issue? Is there background history or childhood history that helped form your position?

What makes this so important to you? Another one, very important is, what is your ideal dream here? That's a very important question. Once people have interviewed each other with those questions, there's much more understanding, which generates a bit more compassion. It softens the space between you. Last of all is compromise. Now, if you are asking each other to give up something that is so core to the other person that it feels like giving up the bones of your body, that's not going to work. What you have to do is really try to honor each other's core needs, core values, or ideal dream that really is so central to the other individual's identity, and then work on compromising around the greater circle of details of how a compromise can be formed.

Alison Stewart: Should these conversations be heard without emotion?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Oh, no. [laughs] Especially not if you're volatile like me. There's absolutely-- We could certainly say, "Sure, squash your emotions." Impossible. It's not going to happen.

Dr. John Gottman: In fact, one of our findings that I think is so important is that a woman's anger is actually a good thing if it gets expressed. In terms of the long-term happiness of the relationship, when you follow couples over time, women who suppress their anger really wind up unhappy in the relationship. Women who express their anger and have husbands who listen to the anger in a respectful way, that relationship gets better over time.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Let me just add one point to that, John, which is a wonderful point that you made, and that is that, listen to these two ways of expressing anger and you think about which one feels better. Number one, "You are such a slob. I can't stand the way you leave the kitchen a mess. What is the matter with you? You're so messy," number one.

Number two, "Honey, when I walk into the kitchen and I see dishes all over the counter, it really makes me angry. Would you please, before you go to bed tonight, clean up the kitchen?" Which one feels better to you? I would guess the second one, which doesn't contain any criticism, any put down.

It's describing your feeling, which indeed is anger, but about what situation? There's the situation of dishes on the counter, and what's your positive need. That your partner can hear much more easily.

Alison Stewart: We have a lot of calls to take. Let's try to get through them. Andrew calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Andrew. Thank you so much for calling, All Of It.

Andrew: Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call. I'm hoping you can hear me. I'm calling in regards to my own relationship. I've been married for seven years, and my wife and I, [inaudible 00:25:32] critically, socially progressive when it comes to sometimes when we're arguing, though, oftentimes my wife will bring up historical traumas or historical issues within the patriarchy.

Being an ally and actually being an ally within the community, my usual resort is that when we're in an argument and there is something like, for example, something to do with motherhood, since we're parents of two, oftentimes it's talked about how there is something wrong within actually our capitalistic society or that the patriarchy [unintelligible 00:26:28] wrong. Now, oftentimes I find myself being submissive or really quiet within these situations and apologizing a lot for things in which predecessors have done. I feel oftentimes that-- Sorry.

Alison Stewart: Go ahead. I thought we lost you.

Andrew: Sorry. I feel sometimes that when I am in these arguments or in a conflict, I find myself being a little submissive in terms of my own personal, actually opinions on it. I'm just curious in terms of what's the best route of navigating historic wrongs done by male predecessors, but at the same time also having a self identity and giving what I'm thinking that I can contribute to the partnership.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: That's an absolutely wonderful question, because you're riding on a wave of women really coming into the fore, really crystallizing their rights to be full human beings out in the culture. Some people call that feminism, some people just call it, yes, being strong, dynamic women. It sounds like you're married to one. For men, it can be really a struggle, because you may be the most feminist man in the whole wide world, but you've inherited, unfortunately, the genderfied history of men who have been far more patriarchal, far more oppressive, suppressive, repressive of women. How does one deal with that when it comes up from your wife?

One of the best things that you could do, first of all, is ask her a lot of questions to understand where she's coming from, her point of view. If she brings up what harm the patriarchy, "has caused", you might want to ask her, "Honey, tell me your own personal stories. How have you experienced the patriarchy in our culture, which I know still exists? How have you personally experienced that?

Share your personal stories with me, because I really want to understand your own individual experience of patriarchy so that I can understand your own inner world, your own internal landscape, your vulnerability. I really want to get that so that I can empathize with you at an even deeper level." That's the first thing. The second thing I would want to do is to say, "Would you please, if you see me manifesting any patriarchal characteristics that are really offensive to you, hurtful to you, that anger you, will you please share those with me?

The last thing I want to be is a representative of patriarchal society. Of course, a lot of this I've just absorbed by living in this society, and it remains pretty unconscious. Please, please, will you be willing to share with me those moments that are hurtful to you so that I can continue to grow and evolve and the two of us can grow closer together over time. Those are the two things I do.

Alison Stewart: Andrew, good luck to you. Suman is calling in from Brooklyn. Hi Suman. Thank you so much for calling the show. You're on the air.

Suman: Hi. Sorry, I was chewing. [chuckles] Thanks so much for taking my call. This segment is fascinating and I've been exposed a little bit to the work of the Gottman's, so thank you. My question is what happens if the two couples or the two individuals who are part of the partnership have different approaches to conflict itself? I will personalize this by saying my parents have I think healthy partnership.

They've been married for 52 years. I grew up experiencing their comfort with conflict with each other. My husband, we've been married for 10 years, we've been together for 15 years. Grew up with a very different cultural orientation. His parents also were married for a long time and they did not have conflict with each other at all. Part of the lack of familiarity with conflict in our parental reference points is sometimes hard for us.

I will just end by saying I am, I think quite comfortable with conflict and I appreciated what one of doctor Gottman's shared about women being comfortable with their own level of power and anger but it's harder for my for my partner. I'm happy to unpack there's different cultural stuff. There's different race stuff. There's so many different layers, but I would be really helpful to get your perspective.

Dr. John Gottman: Yes, I think that one of the things that you can do that is really productive for couples is to talk about those different styles of conflict and where they come from and arrive at a culture of conflict that both of you can really live within. If he's much more of an avoider than you are, he may really be likely to see you expressing your anger or your emotions at all as an attack that he takes very personally.

He may need a much more gentle approach to conflict and reassurance before beginning a conflict that everything is fine, that you are okay. The two of you are okay. That reassurance may be enough for him to then be able to listen. I would say another thing that's really helpful, and this is my own personal invention, is I have a notebook in my back pocket.

In that notebook, I write down almost everything that I want to remember but I use that notebook also when Julie says, "We need to talk." Those four terrifying words.

Alison Stewart: [laughs].

Dr. John Gottman: "We need to talk." [chuckles] I always whip out my notebook and get a pen and say, "Okay, baby, I'm listening. I'm taking notes." The more defensive I feel, the more I slow her down so I can write down everything she's saying. As I'm writing, I go, "Wow, gee, that's really a good point. I never thought of that." Then I ask more questions about it. Then it helps me, it might help your husband to really be able to listen better to actually take notes on what you're saying.

Alison Stewart: Go get him a Moleskine. [chuckles] Maybe something magical will happen.

Dr. John Gottman: Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: They're great.

Alison Stewart: [chuckles] Cass is calling in from Greenwich Village and has been holding a long time. Cass, thank you so much for your patience. You're on the air.

Cass: Sure, no problem. Again, I'm a great fan of the Gottman's as well I follow you guys practically religiously too and I'm a couples therapist. I've been working with a couple in which the husband in the couple presents as first class, straight up narcissist. Only child narcissist. The wife is somewhat codependent caretaker of many siblings when she was growing up.

The problem is it's very, very difficult for him to hear criticism. It's very hard for him to hear her when she's feeling hurt. It's almost like it's a one way street when you are working with a narcissist. I'm wondering, in your travels as therapists, and particularly in what you describe in your research that you've done, how do you guide people that have that dynamic in the relationship to resolve conflict?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: That is a wonderful question. First of all are you talking about in general as a partner of somebody like that or as a therapist who's working with somebody like that? Can you clarify that for me?

Cass: The former. I'm the therapist to the couple and that's what they're presenting to me. From your years of experience, I would love to know how you would-- because the way I'm understanding this issue with the two of them, I'm trying to help the husband to be more aware of possibly his-- even to the point you guys just to get familiar with you-- even to the point of my bringing into the conversation, the cultural difference between a child that is an only child.

How he understands how to resolve conflict versus someone who has siblings. How you understand how to negotiate even at that perspective. You can see?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: I'm right there with you. I've had lots and lots and lots of couples like this. One of the things that I really like to do is to go much deeper with the individual who we would label narcissist. I would ask them, "When you hear your partner's hurt feelings, what happens inside of you?" I want to connect that individual much more with their feelings because a person who is narcissistic oftentimes is cut off from their emotions.

They feel like they're the Grand Poobah, the king. They don't need to feel anything anybody else feels. Sometimes they have difficulty empathizing. The other part of that though is sometimes if they can connect with it, they feel a lot of shame. They read criticism into what their partner is saying, even if the criticism isn't there. You want that person narcissist, if you will, to say, first of all what he hears his partner saying and what does it mean to him?

What does he feel about it? Does it trigger anything for him? Has he ever been told feelings like that before? You really want to explore it a much deeper level this individual on an emotional level. Get down to the core of their own reaction in the split second that their partner finishes expressing her feelings, her vulnerability. The other thing that you can do is what we call maybe help the wife to reword what she's trying to say using what we call a Dan Wile exercise.

Now I'm talking to you as a clinician, but what that means is encourage the wife. What I would do as a therapist is I would speak for the wife, being her voice, but saying to her at a much deeper level, "I really love you. I admire this about you. I love that about you." This is one thing that I'm really feeling hurt by. There's a blend of positive emotion that's being expressed towards him to soothe him because I'll betcha he gets really anxious when there are negative feelings coming at him.

He hears criticism no matter what's going on versus hearing some of that positivity, smoothing it out a little bit, and expressing her negative emotions in a way that there's no way he can read it as criticism. Then stay with him, be a bridge between the two of them so that he gets that he really wants to connect with his wife and the only way that he can connect with her is by trying to take a little tiny bit of her feeling into his heart, feel it, see what it's like, and respond from that place.

I know that's really hard for somebody to do who's been an only child and raised narcissistically, but they can do it. It just takes work.

Alison Stewart: Cass, good luck to you and good luck to this couple. We need to take a quick break. We'll have more with Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman about how to fight right after a quick break.

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Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. Our guests this hour are Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman and Dr. John Gottman. The name of their new book is Fight Right, How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection. You may be familiar with their other two really great books, The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work and Eight Dates. I think that's the last time you joined us on the show. John, you highlight repair as an important element in navigating a fight in a healthy way, sometimes after the fight, sometimes in the middle of the fight. What does repair look like?

Dr. John Gottman: Yes, that's a great question, Alison. It took us about seven years studying how couples repair things? How they turn things around when the conversation is not going well, and it turns out anything you might say in a business meeting will fail in a love relationship.

[laughter]

Dr. John Gottman: You don't want to be rational and say, "Let's consider our alternatives. Let's analyze your position and my position." You really want to talk about what you're feeling in the moment and try to understand your partner's feelings. The earlier you repair, the better. That's what we discovered about repair. Everybody messes up communication. It's really hard, so repair becomes as good as it gets in any relationship. That ability to repair, and it's twice blessed. It blesses him that does the repair and him that receives the repair. Very much as Shakespeare said about The quality of mercy and The Merchant of Venice.

Alison Stewart: Oh, please.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: I just wanted to add a little bit-

Alison Stewart: Of course.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: -about that. Repair means, if the conversation feels like it's going south, what do you do? If you're starting to feel defensive, one of the best things you can say is, "I'm feeling defensive. Can you please say that another way?" If you've blurted out the wrong thing, you can say, "Ooh, ooh, I said the wrong thing. Can I have a moment and say that in a different way?" Also, give some appreciation to your partner. We have found in conflict conversations that there needs to be a ratio of five positive responses or interactions to one negative.

What are positive interactions? They are things like nodding your head saying, "Oh, fair enough. Good point." Maybe asking a question like, "Can you help me understand that a little bit better? This is both our problem. We'll share it together. We'll work it out together." Those are all positive comments along with just nodding your head and smiling. If you can add those into your conversation, those are wonderful repairs.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Vinny from West New York. Vinny, how are you today?

Vinny: Hi, I am doing well. Thanks for taking my call. I'm calling with a question. My wife and I have this weird way of, I guess, communicating. We tend to mock each other in a silly voice sometimes. Sometimes it's borderline disrespectful, but we do it to show the ridiculousness of our requests to each other. For example, I'll say like, "Oh, look at me, I'm Gio and I like to tag along with my husband when he goes out with his friends because men shouldn't have a safe space." Then she gets it like, "Oh, maybe I should let him go out with his friends."

I'm really calling just to see if this is a healthy way of communicating because in a lot of ways we're like still in our honeymoon phase, so I don't want this to be building up to a giant bomb one day. It seems to work out for us. That's my question.

Dr. John Gottman: Anything that works is really something to be welcomed. What you're doing in part is maintaining a sense of humor toward yourself and your partner. That shared sense of humor is a very positive thing, but in a way, you are walking on thin ice by mocking your partner. A lot of times that feels like you're being superior. You're being contemptuous, and you're making fun of your partner. If it's taken the wrong way, not taken a shared humor, it can be very destructive to the relationship.

Alison Stewart: Vinny, good luck. I'm actually impressed that Vinny two years in realizes I want to make sure I'm not creating habits. He's thinking long-term, so that's a positive.

Dr. John Gottman: Right. Very true.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Courtney, who's been holding for a while. Courtney's calling in from the Bronx. Hi Courtney. Thanks for holding on.

Courtney: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. I've known my wife since I was 17. We've been married for 38 years and-

Dr. John Gottman: Congratulations.

Courtney: -the one thing-- Oh, thank you. [chuckles] The one thing, and she still makes me laugh, by the way.

Alison Stewart: [unintelligible 00:45:16]

Courtney: [chuckles] Needless to say, we have had some very nuclear fights, but the one thing that I've realized that I don't disrespect her or say derogatory terms to her or use my inside voice to say. Because I feel like once I start to do that, then the marriage may dissolve or our relationship will dissolve, so I don't do that. The second thing is when we do fight, it's more about me explaining to her why I am upset and trying to make her understand why I am taking the position. It's not so much about being right, but helping her to understand why I am annoyed.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Congratulations.

[laughter]

You're doing it right, which is really, really wonderful. You're showing a lot of wisdom, Courtney, and let me ask you, do you do the same thing for your wife? Do you try to understand her position as well as sharing your own?

Courtney: Yes, I do. She's very adamant about her position so I have no choice what to do.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much, Courtney, and good luck to you. Something I think is really important to mention in our last moments is, and please correct me if I'm wrong, you don't have to win the fight. It's important to understand that the fight, there's not necessarily a winner or a loser. Why do people get wrapped up in the win?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Why do we get wrapped up? Okay, so let me ask you, is this a competitive culture or not?

Alison Stewart: True.

[laughter]

True.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Absolutely. Don't we encourage competition in every walk of life in this culture? It's just a natural part of the society we live in and that enters in to our intimate relationships as well, which is unfortunate because we're actually on the same team. We don't have to compete against each other. Again, when you go into a win-lose dynamic, it often spirals downwards into putting your partner down, diminishing the importance of your partner's position, devaluing them, disrespecting them, and that does not work in conflict. Just remember, as our final words, how important it is to really understand your partner's position on an issue and then arrive at some compromise that honors each of you. That's the best way.

Dr. John Gottman: A win-win solution.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Exactly.

Alison Stewart: John or Julie, is there anything I haven't asked you about? We've got about a minute and a half left that you'd like to leave our listeners with, you think that's important to think about?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Yes, just one thing, and that is when you find yourself sitting, facing your partner, and you feel like you're facing a Saber-toothed tiger attacking you, your heart rate is going up over a hundred beats a minute just sitting there, you are in fight or flight. Right then it's crucial. Stop on a dime. Take a break. Tell your partner when exactly you will come back to talk about the topic again, then go apart for no longer than twenty-four hours, maybe a half an hour to an hour at most, and don't think about the fight. Do something self-soothing, reading a book or a magazine, or playing music to calm yourself down. Get out of fight or flight, then come back together again and you'll feel like you've had a brain transplant, and the conversation will go much better.

Alison Stewart: Just got this text that says, " I heart this couple, they're amazing. You should have them back on again." A little love for the two of you. [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman: Thank you, Alison.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is Fight Right: How Successful Couples Turn Conflict Into Connection. Thanks to everyone who called in and shared your stories and questions, and thanks so much to the Gottmans for their time today.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman: Alison, thank you. This has been a wonderful opportunity.

Alison Stewart: That is All Of It for today. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening. I appreciate you and I will meet you back here next time.

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