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Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It, on WNYC, I'm Kousha Navidar. The sound of the gavel means it's time for a new installment of our series Small Stakes, Big Opinions, and today, we're taking on a classic debate-- Is a hotdog a sandwich? Here's what the late Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg had to say on the topic when she was asked about it by Stephen Colbert.

Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg: You say two pieces of bread. Does that include a roll that's open, but still not completely?

Stephen Colbert: That's the crux, you've gotten immediately. See, this is why you're on the Supreme Court. That gets it immediately to the question, does the roll need to be separated into two parts? A sub sandwich-- A sub is not split, and yet, it is a sandwich.

Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg: Yes.

Stephen Colbert: Then, a hot dog is a sandwich?

Judge Ruth Bader Ginsburg: On your definition, yes, it is.

Stephen Colbert: Well played, Lady Justice.

Kousha Navidar: According to New York tax code, a hot dog is a sandwich, and so is a hamburger, a buttered bagel, a melt, and perhaps most controversially, a burrito. By that logic, is a taco a sandwich? Is a pop-tart? Can literally anything be a sandwich? We've been together for a week, and I wanted to end our time together on All Of It with me as the guest host, diving into the questions that I think really challenge me at my heart. This question actually does have stakes, in New York, sandwiches are subject to a Sandwich Tax.

Sandwiches in New York are classified as a prepared food, which makes them subject to the same sales tax as other prepared foods, so you can see why I care so much. Here to debate you on all things sandwiches is author and comedian Josh Gondelman, who you might remember from our previous debate about seltzer. Josh, welcome back to the show.

Josh Gondelman: Thank you for having me. There's nothing I love more than returning to your show and being yelled at by your listeners.

Kousha Navidar: Get ready. Listeners, we want to hear from you. Is a hot dog a sandwich? Is a burrito? How do you define a sandwich? As a bonus question, what do you think is the best sandwich? We are taking your calls about what makes a sandwich a sandwich. 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Josh, I want to dive right into it while we're waiting for calls. First of all, how do you define a sandwich?

Josh Gondelman: The dictionary definition that I looked at, as Justice Ginsburg cited, is two pieces of bread, or at least two pieces of bread, because a club sandwich, certainly a sandwich, even when there's a third piece of bread. At least two pieces of bread sandwiching some filling. I think that that is a good starting point for what is technically a sandwich, by the definition. Although I think what is spiritually a sandwich, it can be different.

To me, a lobster roll is spiritually a sandwich, even when it's in a hotdog bun. I don't consider that quite the same as a hot dog. There's a real tension here that I'm excited to explore.

Kousha Navidar: Can you unpack the spiritual part that you're describing? What do you mean by that?

Josh Gondelman: Sure. I think there is something to be said for bread or roll filling. You hold it in your hand, you eat it that way. I think when we were talking about a burrito or a wrap, I think there's another word for that, but I don't really think-- When you say a lobster roll is a roll. To me, once you're squeezing it together, that does have sandwich-like properties.

Kousha Navidar: We have a text from a listener that I'd like to [unintelligible 00:03:57]. I would love you to respond to it.

Josh Gondelman: Sure.

Kousha Navidar: Text from a listener, "I think this is like 'Is the tomato sauce on a pizza a vegetable?' According to Ronald Reagan, it is, but not to anyone else. Under legal/technical definitions, a hot dog could be considered a sandwich, but no normal person would consider it such." Josh, response.

Josh Gondelman: I do think the legal definition, while it's not invalid, I don't think it gets to the core of this debate, because legally, it's defined as a prepared food for purposes of taxation but I don't think the laws of humankind are the same as the laws of nature. What we're talking about is the nature of a sandwich, not how it's legally taxed and sold. I think that is a different thing.

I do think that this listener, although I'm not sure if I fully agree that no reasonable person would consider it a sandwich, I do think what they're getting at is the philosophical core of this question.

Kousha Navidar: It is a philosophical question. Listeners, we want you to be a part of answering that question. You can reach out to us, call, text, the number 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We do have a caller here I would like to go, who my producers are telling us is an expert on this topic. Matt, from Woodstock. Matt, what say you?

Matt: Hi. Thank you for taking my call, and thank you so much for this segment. It is the first thing that came to my mind when this new big ideas bit came on the air. A hot dog is absolutely a sandwich, and there's a great deal of confusion around this. There's a few ways we can look at it. We can look at it metaphysically, we can look at it ontologically, but I think the best entry point is to look at it taxonomically.

A sandwich is a genus with many different species within it. I think this is very well in line with the origins of the sandwich. The earl intended to make his meal portable. Bread is a portable carbohydrate, edible napkin, insofar as your meal is wrapped in some sort of edible carbohydrate napkin, it is a sandwich.

Kousha Navidar: Matt, thank you so much for that opinion. It sounds it was earned through a lot of research. Josh, I would like to know, is a carbohydrate napkin what truly makes a sandwich a sandwich, and does that affect a hot dog?

Josh Gondelman: I also keyed in on this phrase of edible carbohydrate napkin, and that is probably one of the most fascinating definitions of bread that I've ever heard. I would be lying if I said I've never used it that way, but that's certainly not-- If you were to say, "Define bread to me," I wouldn't say edible carbohydrate napkin, although this is blowing my mind open right now. I don't think so, because to me, a burrito, as we mentioned before, or a chicken Caesar wrap, there is that edible carbohydrate napkin component in play.

When it's a tortilla, as opposed to bread or a sandwich roll, I think that's different. Although I am open to this question of where do we draw the line? Does a sub sandwich become a sandwich only when the two halves of the roll are severed? I'm willing to entertain that debate.

Kousha Navidar: To continue on with this debate, we have another caller, Julie, in Williamsburg, from Trophy Bar. Hi, Julie.

Julie: Hi. I'm sitting here with a coworker, and we were listening and talking about it. The big time this first came into question was during all the COVID regulations of tavern laws, and soup, salad, or sandwich things, or with to-go drinks. I think when it comes down to it, you don't think hot dog is a sandwich, but when you have to really get into it, it has to be a sandwich. What's the difference between a hot dog and a baloney sandwich? It's just a different shape.

Kousha Navidar: Josh, response.

Julie: The last--

Kousha Navidar: No, sorry. Sorry, Julie, go ahead. No, Julie, please. Please expand, I want to hear even more about this. [crosstalk]

Julie: [unintelligible 00:08:09] you were just talking about. Then what we were talking about, with a wrap and a burrito, again, I think that it's a sandwich genre. It's a relationship to a sandwich, but the hot dog is the closest in relation, it's not the same as a sandwich, is a sibling, not a cousin.

Kousha Navidar: Julie, before we let you go, I just have one question. You're at a bar, and you're listening to WNYC?

Julie: Yes. Every day before work.

Kousha Navidar: Love it. Thank you so much. I want to bring this back to you, Josh. We had a lot in there, baloney, by any other name. Does it not taste as sweet? Please, go ahead.

Josh Gondelman: Look, I think that this is an impassioned argument. I think that if we want to say sandwich is a genre that is wider open than maybe I'd been considering. Again, I think that's a fair argument. What's the difference except for the shape? That's like saying what's the difference between a square and a triangle, except for the shape? It's like, "Yes, the shape is the thing. The casement is the thing." A sausage without the casing is just loose meat.

I do think the vessel that we are using to carry, to contain these sandwich fillings, does play a part in its definition. Again, where do we draw the line? It sounds like Julie and our last listener, Matt, anything with a carbohydrate encasement is a sandwich. I'm not here to gate-keep the genre of sandwich. I'm just here to say, I think common usage would not envelop all these different food stuffs under that definition except for legally, which, again, as we've described, I do not bow to the law of Andrew Cuomo when I'm thinking about philosophy.

Kousha Navidar: Josh, I'm so happy that you brought up legally, because our team has been trying to get a response from the government about this question. We reached out to the New York State Tax Department, and their spokesperson, Ryan Cleveland, just, and I'm saying just, hot off the presses, got back to us with this. It reads, "We get this inquiry fairly often, the key question is not whether it's a sandwich or not, it's whether it's prepared food or not.

That emphasis is there. In this regard, you can buy a dozen bagels and not incur tax, but if you buy a bagel that has been sliced and toasted and has toppings, it is taxed, because it has been prepared for you. In other words, a service has been provided and the service is taxable. When it comes to hot dogs, the same rules apply. You can buy a package of hot dogs and not be taxed, but if you buy one that has been cooked, placed in a bun, with toppings applied, it's prepared food, and it is taxable.

These rules regarding prepared food items have been in place, unchanged, since the early 1960s, when state sales tax was first implemented." Ryan Cleveland, thank you so much for your response. Josh, do you have any response to that?

Josh Gondelman: That feels incredibly fair. Again, I don't think it gets to the heart of this debate that we're having, what's eliciting this passion from our listeners, but I do think it is a good starting point to go. Legally, a hot dog isn't necessarily a sandwich, it's prepared food. Look, if you butter a bagel and then you take it apart, I don't eat a buttered bagel sandwiched at all. I eat one half, and then I eat the other half, open-faced.

Although there is such a thing as an open-faced sandwich, I don't think most people consider hot butter to be a sufficient filling to qualify. I'm glad to know the parameters of this legal definition, I'm glad that the response that the government gave us to this question wasn't just, "Hey, we are busy." It is good to know that from a legal standpoint, we have these specific regulations and parameters in place

Kousha Navidar: It is good to know that there are top minds thinking about this.

Josh Gondelman: Yes, we've got the government on it. We've got WNYC on it. It is very fun to me that this show today had-- We're talking jazz, we're talking time travel, and then you bring me on to talk-- Hot dogs, I think, are a brow so low they're practically a mustache.

Kousha Navidar: [laughs] Well, you mustache the question. Let's go to caller Jeremy, in Brooklyn. Hi, Jeremy.

Josh Gondelman: Hey. I just want to problematize this thought that you need two or more slices of bread, because what about open-face sandwiches? If those are in, then what about pizza?

Kousha Navidar: Jeremy, what do you think about it?

Jeremy: I think open-faced sandwich, clearly a sandwich. I think pizza, clearly not a sandwich, but I don't know why.

Josh Gondelman: Great question.

Kousha Navidar: Josh.

Josh Gondelman: I still think that an open-faced sandwich almost always implies two or more slices of bread. I would call it a crostini, or something, on a single slice. I do think each half is half of an open-faced sandwich, but I don't think-- When you have it, it's still half an open-faced sandwich, which I think-- We talked about pizza, the line has to be drawn somewhere. Is a layer cake a sandwich? No, certainly not. Is a calzone a pillow? Who knows? I say no.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, so you say no?

Josh Gondelman: I say a calzone is not a pillow.

Kousha Navidar: Not a pillow. You heard it here. Let's go to line two. Edith, in Manhattan. Hi, Edith.

Edith: Hi. How are you?

Kousha Navidar: Good. Edith, tell me, do you think a hot dog is a sandwich first, right upfront?

Edith: No.

Kousha Navidar: Okay. Please go on. Why?

Edith: I just was getting back to the edible, transportable carbohydrate definition. Clearly, that would make a taco a sandwich. My question was, what about a lettuce taco? It doesn't have the carbohydrate in it.

Kousha Navidar: Edith, let me ask you this. Do you consider that to be a sandwich, then? I guess that would be considered maybe paleo.

Edith: I don't even consider it a taco. I would not consider a taco or a lettuce carbohydrate-- I mean, a lettuce taco a sandwich. According to that man's definition, I wonder if he would consider a lettuce taco a sandwich.

Josh Gondelman: Let's take it here. Maybe this complicates even further. A hamburger, I would consider a sandwich. What about a hamburger on lettuce? I've seen that before, as a carbohydrate-free option.

Kousha Navidar: Edith, thank you so much for that call, and for offering that new perspective on lettuce. Let us go to the next caller, Frank. Hi, Frank.

Frank: Hey, how are you?

Kousha Navidar: Good. Thanks.

Frank: If you go back to the-- Go ahead.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, please. Sure.

Frank: If you go back to the etymology, that gambling Lord was too busy gambling to eat, so he'd take yeasted bread and put something in it. By definition, I think a sandwich is anything that's put in between yeasted bread, whether it's prepared, cold cuts, or whatever. Otherwise, if you're going to call a hot dog a sandwich, which it's not, then you would have to call a folded pepperoni pizza a sandwich also, which it's not, it's a pizza.

That's the way I look at it. An open-faced sandwich, you can call it a sandwich just for ease, but that's really a Tartine or a Crostini, by definition.

Josh Gondelman: We're back to Crostini, which I appreciate. Also, look, I don't mean to nitpick, we got a guy named Frank calling in for a hot dog ruling, that sounds like a little bit of insider trading. [laughs] I hear what you're saying, but I'm going to take it with a grain of celery salt. Chicago style.

Kousha Navidar: Love that. I was wondering where you were going to go with the salt. That's wonderful. We're going to take a quick break. We're talking to Josh Gondelman about whether a hot dog is a sandwich. Listeners, please, we want your voice in this conversation. Give us a call, text us at 212-433-9692, that's 212-433-WNYC. We'll be right back.

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This is All Of It, from WNYC, I'm Kousha Navidar. Is a hot dog a sandwich? That's the question we are confronting right now in our Small Stakes, Big Opinions segment. I'm here with Josh Gondelman, writer, comedian, who's helping us navigate this thorny debate. Listeners, we're also talking to you. Our phone lines are going, and we are so thankful. If you would like to offer your perspective on this juicy debate, please give us a call or text, 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692.

Josh, we are getting a lot of text messages with opinions. I'd love to just read some and get your reaction.

Josh Gondelman: Please.

Kousha Navidar: First text. Oh, my. "First-time texter, portable is key to the sandwich category, burritos, hot dogs, all sandwiches, yes, but taco is not a sandwich. What about bagel and schmear? Is that a sandwich?" Another text, "The quote 'anything with a carbohydrate napkin' argument falls apart fast, because that would need to include Jamaican patties, empanadas, and dumplings. I am with your guest on this one." Josh. What say you?

Josh Gondelman: Thank you. I do think there is a level in a dumpling, of any culture, of maybe a greasiness that is permissible, not constant, that makes the carbohydrate not a napkin. You could dab with hot dog bread if there was mustard on your finger. I feel like if you dragged a pierogi across your hand, you're getting a little snail trail of pierogi. I do love this line of thinking, because I think a dumpling definitely is a different genre than a sandwich. Burrito, to me, is right on the line.

Is it a dumpling or is it a sandwich? Is it just based on how firmly it's sealed shut? I don't know. These are the questions that Plato, Socrates, Sontag, the great thinkers of our time and previous times have been grappling with for centuries, millennia.

Kousha Navidar: We've just had some more data come in.

Josh Gondelman: Yes, please.

Kousha Navidar: We've asked some of our folks on Instagram, our followers. You can follow us on Instagram, @AllOfItWNYC, we put out a poll today, in a story, we asked, "Is a hot dog a sandwich?" The results, 73% say it is not a sandwich, Josh.

Josh Gondelman: Wow. Fascinating. I think there is an element of consensus, although to me, this is almost the inverse argument of, "Is it art?" The idea of looking at a work or an element of culture and saying, "Is this art?" Definitionally, I was talking with a friend who had gone to art school this weekend, and they said, definitionally, the answer is almost always yes. It's almost always art by definition, even though it might not serve the function of art for you.

It might not make you think about the human condition, move you to feel an emotion, or any reaction like that. You might just look at it and be left totally cold. However, with hot dogs, I think we have the inverse. Even though, definitionally, we say two pieces of bread filling in between is the dictionary definition of sandwich, and hot dog does not satisfy that, it does functionally satisfy what you do with a sandwich. It's portable, it's edible. Those are two big ones. It's got at least one open seam, which is different than a dumpling.

Kousha Navidar: It sounds like you're going back to that idea of what's the spirit of the hot dogs.

Josh Gondelman: Yes, the spirit of a sandwich. That's what I'm going to win my Pulitzer Prize for, so watch out, Ronan Farrow.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to Brent, on line two. Brent, hi.

Brent: Hey, there. No one enjoys being pedantic more than I do, and as much as you want to discuss the intricacies of the definition of a sandwich, [unintelligible 00:20:31] bread, and this and that, if you were telling your friend a story and you said, "I had a sandwich for lunch," and then later, they found out it was a hot dog, they would think that you were either lying or insane, because no one pictures a hot dog when they hear the word sandwich.

Regardless of whether or not it falls into some sort of sandwich definition, I believe to be irrelevant. How is it used locally? In our society, a hot dog is a hot dog, it is not a sandwich.

Kousha Navidar: Brent, thank you so much. What I hear Brent doing here is taking us a step back, maybe going along with that spirit part of the conversation and saying, what are we actually trying to accomplish? Josh, what do you think of?

Josh Gondelman: I think that is fair. I think it's a good point to consider, although I would consider a hamburger a sandwich by definition, it unquestionably satisfies all the elements of a sandwich. Similarly, if you said I had a sandwich for lunch, and the person you're speaking to closed their eyes and pictured what you ate, they certainly wouldn't picture a hamburger. I think that speaks to the cultural biases, maybe, of the listener.

It depends on what their prior experience of sandwiches is, and what they consider a sandwich. I think we've got 73% of listeners say a hot dog is not a sandwich. We've got 27%, and maybe you close your eyes, you say, "Picture a table full of sandwiches," and maybe there's a club sandwich, or maybe there is a hot dog there. I don't think it is fair to eliminate a hot dog from the definition of sandwich, because it is not the primary sandwich that you imagine someone else imagining when they see a sandwich.

If I say I was in a building, you picture a skyscraper, you picture a brownstone, you picture a yurt. I think that that is what you're coming into this with.

Kousha Navidar: Before you judge, walk a mile in someone else's hot dog cart.

Josh Gondelman: In someone else's hot dog-- Yes, walk a mile in my bun.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to Jen. Hi, Jen.

Jen: Yes, hello.

Kousha Navidar: Hi.

Jen: Hi. I hate to complicate the matter, but what about the handheld? Recently, my husband and I, whenever we go out to eat, there's a section on the menu that no longer says sandwiches. Instead, it says handhelds. What do we do with that?

Kousha Navidar: Jen, can you tell me a little bit-- I'm not familiar. What is handheld?

Jen: Oh, you don't know. Oh, my goodness. All summer-long menus no longer say sandwiches. It says handhelds. Underneath the heading of handhelds are any food that you could pick up and hold in your hand, generally involves some sort of bread somewhere along the line. It's just this all-inclusive area that's no longer a sandwich. It's the handheld. We really don't like the term, my husband and I, it's a big joke. He says no more handhelds this summer.

Now that I'm listening to you, I'm thinking maybe it's just a way of getting around the sandwich tax, is to call everything a handheld.

Kousha Navidar: Oh, wow. Jen, thank you so much for that call. Jen sounds fed up with this. Josh, what do you say?

Josh Gondelman: Now, this handheld, that really blows it up into another level, because now I'm thinking chicken tenders. Maybe even wings, with a low sauce quotient. Anything that you eat with your hands rather than fork and knife, to me, could qualify as handheld. I do think the handheld does not get around the taxation, because it is still a prepared food, even though you hold it in your hand. That's not some kind of Al Capone tax evasion loophole.

Kousha Navidar: Josh, we're coming right up to the end of the segment, and I just wanted to thank everybody who has participated in helping us slice out what this debate really gets to. If you'd like to continue talking to us, please do message us on Instagram on Twitter X. We're @AllOfItWNYC. Josh, as we wrap up here, what do you think is the ideal vision of settling this debate? When will we know that we've reached either consensus, or what the true meaning of a hot dog is?

Josh Gondelman: Coming from the Jewish faith, I think that the debate is, in many cases, the active engagement with philosophy, is one of the more important qualities. I don't think we need to come down on one side or another. I think this is, pun heavily intended, something we can continue to chew over long into the future.

Kousha Navidar: Is there anything else you want to add to this debate, or any final opinions you want to share?

Josh Gondelman: I think I've said it all. I think it's been beautiful to discuss. A hot dog, spiritually a sandwich, legally a sandwich, technically a third thing.

Kousha Navidar: Those things and all, we've covered. Josh. We've been talking to Josh Gondelman, comedian and friend of the show. Thank you so much for your time, your expertise, and your appetite for this debate.

Josh Gondelman: Thank you for having me.

Kousha Navidar: Hey, everyone. That's our show. On tomorrow's show, it's icons all day, we'll hear Alison in conversation with the greats like Margaret Atwood, Al Pacino, and Charlayne Hunter-Gault. That's coming up tomorrow at noon. All of It is produced by Andrea Duncan-Mao, Kate Hinds, Jordan Lauf, Simon Close, Zach Gottehrer-Cohen, L. Malik Anderson, and Luke Green. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. Our engineers are Juliana Fonda, Jason Isaac, and Bill O'Neil.

Luscious Jackson does our music. If you missed any segments this week, catch up by listening to our podcast, available on your podcast platform of choice. If you like what you hear, please leave us a great rating. I'm Kousha Navidar. I appreciate you listening with me, and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.

 

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