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Alison Stewart: This is All of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. A new book tells the history of basketball with the stories of 15 sneakers. Sneakers and basketball culture have been connected ever since the earliest days of Chuck Taylors, which were worn by legendary players like Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell. Those were the days of no three-pointers and short shorts. As the sport has evolved, so have the shoes on the players' feet, both in style and technology.

Brands like Adidas, Puma, Reebok, Under Armour, or Nike throw millions of dollars in shoe deals at players and have created instantly recognizable shoes worn around the world, like Air Jordans, Steph Curry's, and for the Lady Hooper, the Nike Air Swoopes. This book is called A History of Basketball and 15 Sneakers. With me now to talk sneakers and take your calls is author Russ Bengtson. Bengtson, did I get that right, Russ?

Russ Bengtson: Yes, close enough. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Oh, no, say it to me.

Russ Bengtson: No, Bengtson, son-Bengt, yes.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Who's been writing about the subject since the 1980s for publications like Slam Magazine and was the first sneaker editor for Complex. Sneaker heads, this segment's for you. What's your favorite pair of sneakers? Maybe they were worn by your favorite player. You have a sense of nostalgia for that one pair that came out when you were a kid, could be Jordans, could be Reebok. Call us, text us, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can join us on air or you can text us at that number. You can also reach out on social media. How did you get into sneakers? Maybe you're a collector. Do you have rules about where to wear your sneakers? How do you keep them clean?

Please, we want to hear how you participate in sneaker culture, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. As we wait for calls, let's get the conversation going. This book makes the case that the history of basketball and the history of sneakers are intertwined. Why are the two so connected, Russ?

Russ Bengtson: I think it's because basketball is one of the sports that's most identifiable with the shoes, and obviously, one that people can actually wear the shoes on the street. I think you look at something like football or baseball, obviously, you're not going to school in cleats. It takes away that level of being able to wear what your favorite athlete wears. Even track and soccer, it's like you're not wearing track spikes to class. I think basketball was the one, obviously, tennis to an extent too, but making clear that connection between the player and the shoe.

At least in the very earliest days, sneakers were a more accessible thing to get than, say, a jersey certainly in the Chuck Taylor days, even before the NBA really took off. The sneaker was really the easiest way for you to feel like you were a part of everything.

Alison Stewart: Let's go over a little bit of the anatomy of a sneaker so if these words come up in conversation, everybody will be on the same page. Toe box, what's a toe box?

Russ Bengtson: Toe box, it's what it sounds like. It's area over the toes, which is actually very important. There was a story when they were testing the Air Force 1 and someone decided the piece directly over the toe, which to use another name, the vamp, someone took that away figuring like, "Oh, that's not that important." Then when your toes come straight up through the front of the shoe, it just gets all floppy and doesn't really work, so it's an essential part of the shoe.

Alison Stewart: Eyestays.

Russ Bengtson: Eyestays are just where the laces go. That's the simplest way to describe that. Sometimes there's plastic there that holds them, sometimes it's holes and leather, sometimes, obviously, in the Chuck Taylor, you have these metal eyelets, but it's just where those go.

Alison Stewart: What do you think is the most important part of a basketball shoe?

Russ Bengtson: Ooh, that's a good question. Honestly, I would say it's the sole. I talk about it in the book, where for a while, there was this idea that a basketball shoe had to be this tall, high top, lace it halfway up your leg kind of thing to support your ankle, but they've realized through trial and error and through scientific study that if you build the sole right and if you have the right support under the foot, it doesn't really matter. It matters, but you can safely play in a low-cut basketball shoe and still have the same level of support.

Alison Stewart: We are discussing A History of Basketball and 15 Sneakers with its author Russ Bengtson. We're taking your calls as well. What's your favorite pair of sneakers? Maybe they were worn by your favorite player, or a pair that came out when you were a kid you have a sense of nostalgia about, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can text us at that number or you can call in and join us on air. Explain to us maybe how you got into sneakers if you're a sneakerhead.

Are you a collector? Which brand makes the best shoes throughout history and why, in your opinion? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. I'm going to go to a couple of calls, which are going to take us into our first sneaker on your list. Let's talk to David from Layton, New Jersey. Hi, David.

David: Hi.

Alison Stewart: What'd you wear as a kid?

David: Hello. Hi. I didn't wear them, but I wanted Converse Chuck Taylors, but they weren't in the budget. They weren't in my family's budget, so I have some horrible sneakers. Then the funniest part was when I got older, I was an adult, I was married and my mother says, "David, I saw this beautiful pair of sneakers the other day. You have to get a pair of these sneakers. They're called Rabox."

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: David, thank you for calling in. Brian calling in from Manhattan. Hi, Brian.

Brian: Hi. How are you doing today? Thanks a lot for taking my call. I was a basketball junkie when I was a kid. My grandfathers both were basketball coaches in the '20s and '30s, and my dad was a basketball coach. I always played in Chuck Taylors, but then the sneaker that I was fond of when I first started was Pro heads, Pistol Pete Maravich Pro Heads. He was outside shooting guard from LSU and he played for his father, Press Maravich. That was a sneaker I was really fond of. Then I had Adidas and Pumas and so forth, but my first favorite sneaker was Pro Heads, Pete Maravich's.

Alison Stewart: Brian, thank you for calling in. All right, we've had two mentions of Chuck Taylors, so let's start there, Russ. It all begins with Converse, especially All Stars. There was actually a gentleman, Mr. Converse. Tell us a little bit about how the shoe was created and who Mr. Converse was.

Russ Bengtson: That's it. Marquis Converse had a factory in Massachusetts, not too far from where Dr. James Naismith invented basketball, and started out making boots, and then decided that with a lot of those same materials, you could make shoes for this new game. The Converse All Star was the one that really stayed around. It had incredible staying power, and part of that was due to Chuck Taylor, also a person. If you look at the name and, obviously, it's a name, but it's easy to forget that Chuck Taylor was someone who got hired by Converse as a salesman. He grew up playing basketball. He was, by all accounts, a talented basketball player.

Although one who may have embellished his resume a bit, which it happens. Especially in those days when games, obviously, were not televised and not as big a deal as they are now. He spent a majority of his adult life as the Johnny Appleseed of basketball. Touring the country, putting on clinics, selling people on Converse, but also spreading the actual game to all these far-flung places. Chuck's name is on that sneaker for a very good reason, and there's, obviously, a reason it's sold, at this point, billions of pairs. They're everywhere. Everyone, I feel like, has owned a pair of Chuck Taylors at some point.

You look back into even players who played up until relatively recently, it feels recently, but into the '90s, guys who started playing as kids started out in Chucks. You had entire generations of NBA players playing in Chucks, so they really made such a huge impact.

Alison Stewart: How are Chucks on people's health, their foot health?

Russ Bengtson: Obviously, podiatrists look at those in horror now. I've decided that some of it is, if you are a modern person whose feet has been coddled in these highly cushioned, highly technologically built shoes, yes, if you switch back into a flat, not very cushioned Chuck Taylor and go out and play basketball in it, your feet are not going to be happy. If you go back into the '50s and into the '60s, if you grew up in that shoe, playing in that shoe and just continued on playing in that shoe, it wasn't nearly as bad, I think, as it looks nowadays compared to a modern shoe.

You look at someone like Wilt Chamberlain who played his entire career in Chucks, he had a season where he averaged 48.5 minutes a game. He averaged more minutes per game than there are minutes in a basketball game. He just played every possible minute, including overtime. He never fouled out and he did that wearing Chuck Taylors and on worst floors. NBA floors back then, NBA arenas back then clearly weren't up to the par they are now and guys played in the summer on asphalt and he somehow managed. I don't think it was a case that Wilt was a superhuman who could tolerate playing in Chuck Taylors. I think it was more that that's what you played in back then.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a couple of more calls. Jed calling in from Montclair, New Jersey. Hi, Jed. Thanks for calling All of It. You're on the air.

Jed: Hi. Just following up on what your guest is saying. In the '50s when everybody was wearing Chuck Taylors or everybody wanted to wear Chuck Taylors, a bunch of us who couldn't afford Chuck Taylors couldn't find them. The other ubiquitous shoe in that era was called a PF Flyer and we developed our own what we called PF cons, which was a PF Flyer where we paint in the star on the ankles to emulate having Chuck Taylors.

[laughter]

Russ Bengtson: Whatever it took.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to John from the Bronx. Hi, John. Thanks for calling in. You're on the air.

John: Thanks for taking my call. I know the stories about basketball and sneakers and basketball, but growing up in the Bronx, the one sneaker that I remember that changed everything for everyone was the shell top Adidas. Those were the sneakers that you didn't want to play basketball with. [laughter] When DMC came out with Cazals, the tracksuit, the bucket hats, the Kangol, and the shell top half Adidas with the fat laces, that just took over everything way before Jordan. I think those are instrumental in changing sneaker culture and making it a style statement, but shell toe Adidas for me, you wore them, they were basketball sneakers, but you didn't play basketball in them.

Russ Bengtson: Agreed.

Alison Stewart: John, thanks for calling in. The reason I took John is because Adidas superstars are on your timeline after Chuck Taylors. Let's talk about how they became part of basketball culture.

Russ Bengtson: Absolutely. Adidas was and is a German company. They hadn't really done too much in basketball before. They focus primarily on soccer and on track and field. When they eventually did move to get into basketball through Adi's son, Horst Dassler, they ended up making this leather basketball shoe because leather was what they worked in. They built these as a low top. That was the idea. The pro model was just a high-top version of the superstar for people who couldn't believe that you could play basketball on a low top because everyone at that point was so used to Chucks. He's right, the sneaker did become this status symbol.

It actually even started out as one because it was substantially more expensive than the Chuck Taylor. You were paying nearly double than you would pay for a Chuck for a pair of Superstars. I think people did use that as something that you didn't necessarily want to go wreck-it on a basketball court if you paid that much for it. It was hard to find. You're talking about an era that there were no Foot Lockers or Athlete's Foot yet. You had to find a distributor to actually get them. There was a case where even if you knew about it, that didn't necessarily mean you could go and find it right away.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about a history of basketball and 15 sneakers with Russ Bengston. We're taking your calls as well. Next up on the list, oh, gosh, I remember these. I'm really wanting these. Clyde Frazier's Pumas. I was sub-athletic, I just thought they were cool.

[laughter]

Russ Bengtson: That was it. It wasn't even a matter of basketball at that point. I think the Puma Clyde specifically was where you started to split off, where it's like this is just a super-cool suede shoe that you could wear anywhere and it still is. That shoe has had incredible staying power as well, not just in New York, where Clyde Frazier remains a staple, obviously, at Madison Square Garden and as a fashion plate. It's like here's a guy in his late 70s who's taking more risks with his clothing than most of us would and he has been for most of his life. I said in the book too that I doubt Clyde has paid for a drink in New York for the past like 50 years and he probably hasn't.

Alison Stewart: Was there something specific about those shoes? We talked about the fashion part of it, what about the basketball part of it?

Russ Bengtson: I think a big part of that shoe was just the way it helped Clyde stand out. I think from a performance perspective, you did have it was obviously a lightweight shoes, super flexible. For someone coming, like Clyde coming off playing in Chuck Taylors, I think it was a better shoe. I think if you look at it now as a basketball shoe, it's hard to even fathom that, oh my God, someone played basketball in this. You flip it over and it's got these sort of square and diamond tread pattern, which was multi-directional. For the early '70s, it was a high-tech thing. Suede obviously, as anyone who's worn it, especially as a shoe, it stretches out. It's probably not going to last you a long time.

Clyde did manage to get a decent amount of wear out of them. I think if Clyde were to play now and if Clyde were to play in that original Clyde now, I think he'd take the Jordan route and play in a new pair every game. Back then I think it was a little more, okay, we're going to get a couple of games out of these.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Diane from Queens. Hi, Diane. Thanks for calling in.

Diane: Hi. I have a little different perspective on this. I am a 70-year-old mom of a 40-year-old son who growing up was an avid sneaker person. We spent many hours waiting online at stores, calling up Nike town, going places looking at sneakers. At the time I was living that life I was like, "Is this crazy? Am I caving into things that my child wants?" Let me tell you something, unbeknownst to me, I became a lover of sneakers. To this day, when I meet someone, I look at what sneaker they're wearing. Right now I'm sporting Hokas, which are those sneakers for older people when you want to have your feet be comfortable. I get a lot of compliments on my Hokas, I have to say.

Now I realize what it must have been like for my son whenever he got a new pair of shoes and showing up somewhere and somebody saying, "Oh, you got the new Jordans. Oh, they are amazing." Only the other day he treated himself to a pair of sneakers that are re-issue. He showed it to me and I remembered when he wore those originally, maybe in the year 2000. I never expected to get so much pleasure out of what I thought was the most annoying thing at that time in my life. Now when I look at sneakers, I don't see sneakers, I see art.

Alison Stewart: Diane from Queens, she's making the case for why you should care so much about sneakers.

Russ Bengtson: Very true. That's so funny that she would get pulled into it like that. I would just add that I don't think Hokas are only for old people only because I have a pair of Hokas and I don't think I'm that old. It is funny seeing how brands now like Hoka and On Running have burst into this space. Not basketball per se, but even just sneakers in general.

Alison Stewart: Coming up after the break, we'll talk about Air Force 1s, Air Jordans, Nike Air Swoopes, and the modern basketball sneaker. My guest is Russ Bengtson. We're talking about The History of Basketball in 15 Sneakers. We'll continue after the break.

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Alison Stewart: This is All of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Russ Bengtson. The name of his book is The History of Basketball in 15 Sneakers. All right, we've arrived at Nikes, Air Force 1s as well as Air Jordans. I want to get to that in a minute, but you know in the book that the modern NBA was born in 1979 because I do want to talk about a little bit of basketball history as well. What was it about the era of the NBA that made the sleek modern and how did style and tech in terms of sneakers evolve at this time?

Russ Bengtson: I look at 1979 as being a big year for Magic Johnson and Larry Bird entering the league. Those two guys played in the most widely watched NCAA final. They joined the NBA in Boston, in Los Angeles, two classic coastal teams. It took a while for the NBA to catch up. Their TV deal wasn't great. They were still airing finals games on tape delay. People considered the college game a more pure version of basketball, which some people seem to still do that. I don't understand it, but that's fine. I think you had this period, that five-year period from 1979 to 1984 was really key in a lot of that. As it turns out, Nike did play a big role in that as well.

Nike, they were a young company, they were fairly small. They were willing to take risks. They started in 1972 in Portland. They started equipping Trailblazers players with shoes, but 1982 when they introduced the Air Force 1, that really pushed the whole tech aspect of sneakers forward. The idea of putting air under the foot was just such a different thing and something that I think for consumers and fans alike, you could understand it. You didn't need much to comprehend it. Like air underneath the foot, of course, that's going to be softer.

Alison Stewart: When we talk about Air Jordans, obviously, this movie Air came out about the signing of Michael Jordan to Nike when he really didn't want to. Sneakers play the pivotal role in the movie. The Air Jordans do the right thing. What is the story of how Michael Jordan came to Nike?

Russ Bengtson: Now, to preface this, I did not go see the Air movie. The book was still just at the end of the process, it was really getting close to coming out, and I didn't want to, I don't know, I didn't want to add that to all of my thinking about it. Also, for the record, not that I was asked about this, but Sonny Vaccaro should have been played by Leonardo DiCaprio. I hate to make casting decisions after the fact, but Sonny was a great help in writing this book. I've known Sonny forever. I want to say I met him for the first time, probably in the mid '90s when he was working for Adidas.

He went from company to company, but I think as is discussed in the movie, you had Sonny Vaccaro who was working at Nike at the time, along with Phil Knight, obviously, who was the founder of the company, and Rob Strasser, who was one of the primary movers and shakers at Nike at the time. Then you had David Falk, who was Michael Jordan's agent, had worked for ProServ, which from the name, began as a tennis operation, and was one of the few agencies that did these big deals between tennis players and sneaker companies. They were the ones who really had the idea that Michael Jordan needed to have this tennis-like deal with his own clothing line, with his own sneaker.

At the time, as a rookie, this was unprecedented, at least at that level. Nike was the one willing to take this risk on a rookie. Jordan, for his side, was willing to take a risk with this lesser-known company. At that point, Converse was still big, but if he signed with Converse, he would be just another guy. He would be behind Larry and Magic, neither who have their own shoe either. They kind of hedged their bets. If you look at the way that shoe was marketed, they were advertising it months before it came out. Michael Jordan was wearing it months before it came out. By the time it did come out, they had built up this desire for it.

You look at the numbers, and that's what amazes me still, where they signed him to a five-year contract, and part of the wording of the deal was if they don't sell $3 million worth of Air Jordan stuff in the first three years, Nike could void the last two years of the deal. They sold $126 million worth of Air Jordan products the first year, so they probably passed that $3 million point in like a week. I think as big as everyone needed it to be, it ended up exponentially even bigger than that. It really just set off what became this modern sneaker world.

Alison Stewart: Oh, yes, my kid asked for my Stephs or the Kyries. [chuckles] He's always about the first name. Before I let you go, I was really curious about when is a moment in modern basketball where the game, changes in the game, the vibe of the game matches the technology in a sneaker?

Russ Bengtson: That's a good question. I like looking back to the Reebok Pump and people stopping to pump up their shoe. Dominique Wilkins did it briefly in a dunk contest in 1990, and then Dee Brown famously did it in 1991. I look at something like that being like, "Okay, pumping up your shoe maybe doesn't provide you with that much more stability than you would have otherwise," but when I look at a lot of sneaker technology as providing you with actual confidence, that's real.

I look at Michael Jordan lacing up a new pair of shoes every game, and that just becomes part of your mindset before you go out there and play. I think the pump does that too in a more, I guess, to use that word, technological fashion. You pump up, you're like, "All right, that's what I needed. I'm good to go."

Alison Stewart: I love this one text we got about sneakers. "Limousines for da feet." That is how it is written.

Russ Bengtson: [chuckles] Indeed they are.

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is A History of Basketball in 15 Sneakers. Thanks to everybody who called in and shared their sneaker stories, and thanks to Russ Bengtson. Thanks, Russ.

Russ Bengtson: Thank you so much, Alison. Really appreciate it.

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