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Alison: This is All Of It. I'm Allison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thanks for sharing part of your day with me. Tomorrow we will be live in The Green Space in front of a studio audience. A few tickets have become available, so if you want to come on down and see the show live, we would love to have you go to wnyc.org/the greenspace, or you can follow along via live stream or just listen on the radio like you're doing right now. Our guest list is fantastic. We have comedian Jordan Carlos, author Emma Straub, the Food Collective Ghetto Gastro, and the band Yola Tango will perform some live music. We're all looking forward to what's happening live on the air tomorrow from The Green Space.

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Valentine's Day is next week, so we're starting with a podcast about bad romances, romance scams actually. If you're on any dating profiles or any social media at all, you've probably come across a catfish or two. Catfishing is when someone somewhere on social media on an account or on a dating profile just claims to be someone they are not. It often starts with a very attractive stranger in your DMs paying you some compliment. Then after a while, there's the ask, and sometimes it ends with someone sending a lot of money to a stranger who spent weeks or months convincing that person that they were in love with them.

As it turns out, many catfish scammers wind up using the same photos of the same attractive people who in real life really have no idea that they are the face of these scams. One woman's photo has been used in upwards of 100,000 social media accounts. Her name is Janessa Brazil, and she's the subject of a new investigative podcast called Love, Janessa. The podcast begins with a journalist named Simon de Bruxelles getting catfished by an account claiming to be Janessa, and then when he goes and looks for the real Janessa using all the tools that a fastidious journalist would use, he gets catfished again. The podcast explores the psychology behind falling victim to so-called romance scams.

It takes us behind the scenes of scammers' operations in Ghana where scammers make up a subculture that carries a little bit of prestige. Of course, the podcast makes a point of trying to find the real Janessa. Listeners, if you've ever been ensnared by a romance scam or if you've watched a loved one go through it, we would like to hear about your experience. As we discuss this widespread problem, once again, this is a judgment-free zone, so you can talk it out with us and help us understand what happened and why it's so appealing or what you watched one of your friends or family members go through.

212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can tweet to us or if you would like to remain anonymous, you can send us a DM on Instagram @AllOfItWNYC. Joining me now to talk about Love, Janessa, a podcast about romance scams, please welcome its host journalist Hannah Ajala. Hannah, nice to meet you.

Hannah: Hi, Alison. Thank you so much for having me. What an intro.

Alison: It's quite a series. I listened to the first three, which have dropped already. I forced myself not to listen to, even though I could. I was like, I just want to enjoy this week by week. How did you get turned onto this story?

Hannah: I got turned on because the article, as you mentioned, which was written by British journalist Simon de Bruxelles was brought to my attention and I remember reading through it and asking myself that question, could this be the most catfished woman in the world? I immediately hopped onto a search engine and when you are on a search results page and there's like page 20, 50, 100, 200, 750, my jaw almost dropped to the floor because there were countless images of this woman. It led me to that question, which then further led to the investigation of finding out more about her essentially, and why her.

Alison: Let's play a clip so people can hear a little bit of the podcast and get its vibe. We hear this man Simon, doing a dramatic reading of his text messages. Let's hear this. This is from Love, Janessa.

Simon: This was her initial message in this conversation. Me, "You got me so worried, as I keep thinking so much about you. I miss you so badly. I'd like to send you something for Valentine's Day. Maybe you could buy that car we talked about so we could take a drive along the coast." Her, "I would love that." Me, "Make sure it's a good one. Why am I sending money to Ghana anyway? That's in Africa, isn't it? You told me you are in Spain. I'm not really happy about sending $50,000 to Africa to buy a car." Her, "Honey, trust me as your wife, as I won't disappoint you because I love you so much."

Alison: In your narration, Hannah, you say this isn't the scam story you think it is. What is the scam story most people think when they think about romance scams?

Hannah: Most people think that the victims are these older people, lonely, divorced, widowed, nearing towards the end of life with nothing else to do. This series we're only close to halfway through it, and as we saw in episode two, a young man very close to my age, in his 30s, thriving, got a great business, but couldn't find love, resulted in finding love online, which then unfortunately resulted in him being scammed hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Alison: For Simon, why was Simon a good way to introduce listeners to this story?

Hannah: Because I guess it was a great thing about Simon is that as well as being an investigative journalist, he actually got to experience what it's like to be the, the scammee, the victim, to have an understanding of how they speak to you, how they converse with you, how they lure you into the point where you are literally emptying your bank account for someone that you've never met in the flesh before.

Alison: We're talking about Love, Janessa, the podcast. My guest is Hannah Ajala. She is the host of Love, Janessa, a BBC and CBC podcast. Just for people so they have a sense of what does Janessa really look like?

Hannah: Janessa is a good looking woman. Definitely in this day and age of social media if she had a very active account, would've had millions of followers. Attractive, olive skin, born and raised in Brazil before moving to the US where she pursued a career in the entertainment industry, but a good looking woman. There's no doubt about it, and, unfortunately, became the bait of having countless of her images shared all over.

Alison: When you think of an actress who could play Janessa, who would you think might be a good Janessa?

Hannah: Such a good question. Jessica Alba.

Alison: Yes, I see it.

Hannah: Yes, [crosstalk] maybe Jessica Alba.

Alison: People have a visual now. Janessa's photos have wound up on more than 100,000 of these catfishing scam social media accounts. Why do scammers seem to like this particular image? That's a lot, 100,000.

Hannah: I think one very easy segue is the fact that she was working in an industry where her face was quite popular at the time. With that, again, I guess that was an easy way of access. Now, there are many ways that these romance cameras work. One of them with very smart technology as we saw in episode three when we traveled all the way to West Africa and Ghana. A very popular dump site exists there where countless of laptops and hard drives left over. There've even been recent investigations where lots of sensitive information was found on these hard drives. It could also be in incidents of computer hacking and your personal data being leaked as well. [crosstalk] So that could be a possibility.

Alison: Let's talk about that part of the episode of it's the Sakawa Boys.

Hannah: Yes.

Alison: Okay, what is a Sakawa boy?

Hannah: Sakawa, the term is a language called Hausa and it means to put back in, but in the colloquial term it's a group of fraudsters essentially who are scamming people. What makes sakawa boys different is that it's not just your everyday crime. There's actual rituals that are part of their practice. It's what people would call quite spooky. Many people in the continent are very much so exposed and believe and understand it, but it's very much so under the umbrella of black magic, witchcraft, voodoo, juju, wherever you are in the world. A lot of these sakawa boys, it's very common for a lot of them not all to take part in these activities.

Alison: They operate like a business. Even though you've described this spiritual element it's definitely a business. There's departments and there's roles and [crosstalk] things people have to do and have some of their job. They have jobs. What are some of the jobs, for example?

Hannah: This is top notch. This is an industry. I would say that it's not necessarily a whole hub, like everyone knows each other within that company. There's many different groups and communities that gather together to distribute that load. Especially as, they're getting smarter, the technology that they're using is better. One of their main sources of what drives their income is to have a computer or good internet. They will create various profiles on these sites and speak to their victims and speak to them for a long amount of time.

A lot of these romance scams takes relationship building, like in the real world where you are getting to know someone before you finally decide to take the relationship further. Computers is a big one. Manuals is also a very popular one, as we heard in episode three with automated answers of what to do. If a victim asks you, why haven't they seen your face yet? Oh, it's because your camera's not working, because you don't have enough money for it. If they were to send you money, then maybe you'd be able to afford one. What to do in the case where they feel like you are scamming them or not legitimate, tips on how to sweeten up the relationship.

Sometimes the scammer would have to send them gifts and little things to let them know that they're interested before they ask for money, just so that they're in a safe position. The scammers that are a lot more very professional, probably in the top tier have the smart technology where they can even dub some images to make them look like the person is speaking in a video call. There are so many different levels and that comes with years of experience.

Alison: Those are two things that you touched on that I thought were really fascinating. One is, some of these are really-- It's a long con. There is an investment for some of these people who are scamming, they have to really build the relationship to get the amount of money or the trickle of money that adds up and the manual, the idea that there's a script and they know where to go.

Hannah: I think that's the bit that blew my mind because it makes you realize that they've become so good at it. At the same time, I don't think anyone wakes up and decides to be a scammer. There are several circumstances around why they've decided to live their lives this way, but I think it's just the target. A lot of the victims are either in the US, Canada or the UK or Europe. Once you pinpoint that area and you source quite carefully, you are able to have a clear idea of who the victims tend to be. That gets them in and they have so many examples that they can share amongst each other. Another interesting thing is that, of course, there are many ordinary citizens in Ghana that just turn a blind eye to it because they understand that life isn't easy. Therefore they understand why these often young men are resulting in these technically crimes.

Alison: We're talking about the podcast Love, Janessa, about romance scams. My guest is its host, the journalist Hannah Ajala. It is a BBC and CBC podcast. Let's talk to Cal, calling in from Yorkville. Hi, Cal. Thanks for calling in.

Cal: Hey, thanks for taking my call. I had a coworker that was duped into thinking about having a romance. [chuckles] I think it was through Facebook that unfortunately friended some of my associates and it was through pretending to be shy that I didn't want to communicate with him directly. They used my mother's Facebook friend account faking her identity and duping this poor lady into basically being fleeced of all her retirement funds. I don't know if she's listening to this show or not, but and I had no idea what was going on until it was too late and. I'm trying to find out if there's anything I could do for any recourse, whether it's like contact the FBI because she went to her local police or something and there was nothing they could do. There was zero they could do. It just seems, but--

Alison: Seems like someone should be able to do something, right, Cal. Thanks for calling in. To Cal's point, should someone be able to help someone who finds himself in this situation?

Hannah: Yes, it's a really tough one because in the criminal court of law, catfishing, you won't really find that term in there. What we found through research with case studies of people that have been scammed insane amounts, a lot of them want justice because they're already in the position where they've been able to afford sending these amounts across. They go the extra mile. If it's not speaking to a fraud prevention specialist, they would go to a private investigator to actually track down who this person is. You'll find that it's usually two outcomes. The first, in typical catfish style, the person that they found is the complete opposite to the person that the victim was speaking to.

Second, the person that they've found is an active criminal in other activities. Because they've been found and arrested or questioned or et cetera, they've been able to be tracked down for the other offenses caused and therefore penalized for that offense. I guess when that happens to the victim, even though they may not be put down for that particular offense but at least they have been, affected in a way that they won't continue on their crimes to others. It is quite unfortunate that there isn't a direct penalty for catfishing, but you'll find that quite a few of these perpetrators do dabble in other crimes, which are literal crimes that they can be put down for.

Alison: Listeners, have you ever been ensnared by a romance scam or maybe watched a loved one go through it? We'd love to hear about your experience. 212-433-9692. 212-433-WNYC is our phone number. It's a widespread problem. This is a judgment-free zone. You can talk it out. Maybe you'll help someone else who might be on the verge of this. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Our social media is @AllOfItWNYC. Let's talk to Peter, calling in from Staten Island. Hi, Peter.

Peter: Hi, Allison. How are you?

Alison: I am doing great. What happened in your world?

Peter: Well, as I was telling your screener I've not been actually victimized to the point where it cost me money, but on three separate occasions several years ago when I was doing the online dating scene, I came very, very close to getting suckered. The first time it was really just I guess dumb luck and the fact that I didn't have the cash that the woman was asking for. That's all it saved. Then after that I did some research to look into what was being asked of me. What this woman had asked of, she said she was in Germany, she's from Brooklyn, tending to her ailing mother and needed $500 as a premium for health insurance.

I said, I didn't have it. She said, could you send me that much in Visa gift cards? I said, mom, I'm like, you got to be kidding me. I said, no, she never contacted me again. I subsequently learned that the gift card scam is a real problem. Where apparently the recipient can scratch out, I guess a barcode on the back or something and replace it with whatever amount they want. If I had sent somebody say $100, it could turn it to $10,000 real quick.

Alison: Oh my gosh, Peter. I'm going to dive in because Hannah is nodding her head and I want to follow up because Peter was smart enough to pick up on the gift card. He was, that something wasn't right. What are some of the signs that something's not right?

Hannah: I think it's just not communicating that much with that person. I tried to take myself out of it because I've spent some time talking to these victims and just asking them at what point was it a bit dodgy? It can be when the conversation shifts. We're no longer talking about our feelings and how much we love each other. We're talking a lot about money. There's this sense of urgency, desperation, a family member's suddenly sick, you're in a hotel. No one must know that you're staying there, but you urgently need a few hundred bucks. Urgency and desperation. Could also look up for a few red flags. They're typing differently to how they're used to. Am I still messaging or talking to the same person. It's so important to be super attentive in these times, but you'll definitely notice there'll be a sense of urgency.

Alison: You've talked to a few people so far who now know that they have been catfished and they've given a lot of money. What did they tell you about the moment they discovered they'd been catfished? What did you observe from them and from their language about that moment they realized, "Oh no, this is all false."

Hannah: I honestly grew a lot of trust and faith in humanity because I never would've imagined that humans can be so selfless. One thing that really blew my mind was episode two, Roberto Marini, a lovely young Italian guy. I didn't sense any bitterness from him considering the fact that this is a young man who invested years, over three years in a relationship with someone he never met in the flesh. Thought that he saw twice in the flesh in an airport, but didn't. Managed to send over in that space of time over $250,000. Is that he didn't give up on love. Throughout the heartbreak and the sadness, a part of me did hope that he did go to therapy. Maybe he did receive some help just to get into a better place.

You'll find that the time when it happens to them or when they realize that the person's not who they say they are, then they are completely crushed. A few of them are almost in denial, a bit delusional, thinking that it did genuinely happen, but maybe the person just doesn't want to say. I've spoken to people who do genuinely believe that they were in a relationship with the Janessa Brazil. It's almost just not wanting to believe that it's real. Not wanting to believe that it's actually happened because they've invested so much of their time and so much of their money. Usually heartache, absolutely crushed shot box, and in denial.

Alison: Of everyone, you talked to in the series who gave the most money? You don't have to tell us who, but what sums are we talking about?

Hannah: I can't say who, but it was probably close to half a million dollars.

Alison: Let's talk to Laura from Westchester. Hi, Laura. Thank you for calling in.

Laura: Hi. Thanks for taking my call.

Alison: You have firsthand experience with this, yes?

Laura: Yes. It wasn't so much catfishing, but I got snared by a gigolo. I gave up a lot of money, gifts mostly, and I really appreciate that urgency because it was a long-distance situation. In order to talk to him, I had to agree to help him out, so to speak. Help him out with his business and his things that he wanted. I just had no sense, no perspective, no sense of reality. What I want to say to anyone who might be in this situation is think about the chemical reaction that your body is having to love. The chocolate high that you get from what you feel like is love, and if that's making you do things like give money or things that you wouldn't otherwise give get help. It's too scary to do it on your own.

Alison: Laura, thank you for being so candid. Really appreciate you calling in. The idea of help comes in a lot. People are preyed on for being people who are good and want to help other people. I definitely got that from the series as well.

Hannah: Oh yes, absolutely. That's why I said it just, it gave me faith in humanity because I just didn't know there were people that wear their heart on their sleeves for people that they've never met.

Alison: We'd started the conversation talking about this woman, Janessa Brazil, and that her face has been used 100,000 times in catfishing scams and all kinds of things. What recourse does someone like her have? Because there are obviously other people who probably have their images being used.

Hannah: It's a really tough one because before Janessa fell off the radar and our hunt in the, in the hopes to find her began she was aware of the fact that her face was being used in these scams. People even calling her and contacting her and saying, "Hey, you've scammed me out of X, Y, and Z." It's a really tough one. I guess it's another question that we're asking in this series. Is she the victim or not?

Alison: As I said, there are three episodes people can listen to now. There's seven in total. We don't want to spoil anything. Is there anything you want to tease about the rest of the season?

Hannah: I want to tease the facts that things aren't always what they seem to be until you meet someone in the flesh.

Alison: That was an excellent tease. The name of the podcast is Love, Janessa. It is from the BBC and the CBC. I've been speaking with its host journalist Hannah Ajala. Hannah, thank you so much for sharing your recording.

Hannah: Thank you so much, Alison, for having me.

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