MUSIC - Luscious Jackson

Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. Whether you're listening on the radio, live streaming, or on demand, I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, we'll talk about the new BBC four podcast, The Immortals, about people who want to live longer and maybe forever. Singer, Laufey, joins me for listening party for her new album, Bewitched. She sold out town hall last night, and we'll speak with Director Maryam Keshavarz about her new film, the Persian Version. That is the plan.

Let's get this started with Edwin Raymond and his book, An Inconvenient Cop, My Fight To Change Policing in America.

MUSIC - Luscious Jackson

The stated mission of the NYPD is "To enhance the quality of life in New York City by working in partnership with the community to enforce the law, preserve peace, protect the people, reduce fear, and maintain order." Edwin Raymond joined the force in 2008 full of hope that he could take part in that mission and make a real impact in his community in Brooklyn. What he found instead was a police force that he claims prioritized arrest quotas over public safety, was full of implicit bias and calcified leadership.

For years, Edwin thought he could change things from within the system, and by refusing to go out of his way to arrest people for fair jumping or other minor infractions that could haunt someone for years, especially since he was only being encouraged to do so in primarily Black neighborhoods. He is passed up for a promotion to charge him even after finishing 8th on the test out of 932 people, ostensibly because he wasn't meeting the arrest quotas expected of him.

Edwin began recording interactions with the superior officers all the way up to some top brass, and those recordings became a key part of the bombshell New York Times Magazine piece, A Black Officer's Fight Against the NYPD. Edwin also became a plaintiff alongside 11 other officers of color in a lawsuit alleging that supervising officers encourage cops to meet arrest quotas and the policy targeted people of color. Edwin retired from the force, ran for city council, and now has written a new memoir, An Inconvenient Cop, My Fight to Change Policing in America co-written with Jon Sternfeld.

He writes, "The police officer occupies a central role in our society, but he's pulled in two directions, by the people he ostensibly serves and the system that provides for him, and he can't serve both. In a starred review, Kirkus calls the book "An urgent expose, essential to understanding the fractured state of policing in America." Edwin Raymond joins me in studio to discuss. Nice to meet you.

Edwin Raymond: Likewise, Alison. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: You write, "The Brooklyn of my youth was a dangerous place." You grew up in East Flatbush. What did you bear witness to as a kid?

Edwin Raymond: It was gunshots almost every night and crack cocaine was still very prevalent and everything that came with it, from the shootouts that would happen for territory to the violent crimes that those who were addicted would commit in order to support their habits. Simultaneously, being a kid, you don't realize what you're in. It was also growing up in a community that was still coming together. It's a growing Western and Caribbean neighborhood. I still enjoyed my childhood as much as I could despite the realities of also growing up very poor.

My mother passed away when I was only three, my dad didn't work since I was six. He didn't speak English, and we didn't have public assistance. It was a rough childhood, but it was a beautiful childhood at the same time.

Alison Stewart: He had some profound mental health issues, you describe it very poignantly in the book. At one point you came back to the house and you looked at the wall and you thought maybe it was dark, but it was all covered with roaches. He really wasn't taking care of himself. He really had some profound health issues.

Edwin Raymond: My brother and I, shortly after my mother passed away, he sent us to Florida to live with his brother, my uncle. In those two years, it was two short years, but it had been a lifetime seeing the contrast to what we came back to. This is all part of what was tough about growing up, but simultaneously, fortified me to be the man I am today.

Alison Stewart: What was your view of cops when you were a kid?

Edwin Raymond: One of the tasks that I had, being that my dad didn't speak English, is I had to translate the news for him. We watched everything, including the show, Cops, America's Most Wanted, et cetera. I'd overall pretty much seen cops as the good guys that are here to protect us all. When I was in Florida, that's when the Rodney King situation happened. I was too young to fully understand what was going on. It wasn't until I was about 11 when Abner Louima happened, and it happened in Flatbush. Abner Louima was from Flatbush, he was also Haitian. That's the first time I questioned and said, "Whoa, what's going on here?"

Everyone was saying this guy was a church guy. It didn't even make sense for him to go through that. I didn't really question the overall behavior of cops until that. Then two short years later, we had Amadou Diallo shooting, and that's the one that made me really wake up and say, "Whoa, what is going on?" Then a year after that, I started getting stopped by cops and thrown on walls.

Alison Stewart: Who had the talk with you?

Edwin Raymond: My dad. Immediately after Abner Louima, he explained, "Because of the body that you're in as a young Black boy" at the time, that society is not going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You have to work very hard. He didn't use the term, "Success sequence," but you can't afford to make any mistakes, especially because we're so poor. He had his criticisms about the United States, but he did say, "This is the land of opportunity. You follow these steps, you will be better than what you are now," and I listened, thankfully.

Alison Stewart: When did you first get the idea to maybe consider being a police officer?

Edwin Raymond: It's crazy, because my dad actually suggested it and I thought he was crazy. I said, "What is this guy talking about?" Then it was two things that happened simultaneously. It was when I was 18, I was violently thrown on a fence and searched illegally just walking in my neighborhood. Then a family friend who's like an uncle, Nixon, I saw him at the-- It's a Haitian Flag Day parade that takes place every May in Flatbush. I was just like, "Wow, a cop. I know him," because prior to meeting Nixon in uniform, cops were just nameless faces driving by. There was no deeper interaction, with the exception of community affairs, et cetera.

Overall, everyday police officers, there was nothing more there. This was at the time when Operation Impact where cops were put on corners all over. They were there in our neighborhoods standing there, but they wouldn't even say, "Good morning." Nixon, just seeing him there, those two things, I said, "You know what, I need to do this." One, to see why is it that I experienced what I experienced and other Black men and Latino folks experience what we experience, and two, to see what I can do about it.

Alison Stewart: Could you see yourself in uniform when you saw-- I think, "If I see it, I can be it."

Edwin Raymond: Yes, absolutely.

Alison Stewart: When you saw Nixon, could you see yourself?

Edwin Raymond: Yes. When I saw Nixon, it became tangible. It became real.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Edwin Raymond. The name of the book is An Inconvenient Cop, My Fight To Change Policing in America. It becomes clear in the book, even as early as training at Police Academy, they don't want to really talk about race. Why is it such a verboten topic even in the academy?

Edwin Raymond: I take it back to the former Attorney General, Eric Holder, he said, "When it comes to race, we're a nation of cowards," and we still are, unfortunately. Not discussing race, it robs us off the language and the experience to have our own truth and reconciliation, which we haven't had as a nation. Even the ability to have it as individuals, we don't have it. It's probably the most impolite conversation you can have, it's extremely taboo. As long as we continue to move forward as a society with that unwritten rule, we're probably never going to get to where we need to be as a nation.

It's crucial that we discuss this, no matter where your politics falls, so you can see-- There might be some blind spots that you just need enlightening on. Likewise, you'd be able to teach others also. Me, as long as I knew I could empirically support my position, I was never shy to discuss race.

Alison Stewart: You pipe right up.

Edwin Raymond: Exactly.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: People are shocked that you decide to speak your mind.

Edwin Raymond: 100%. You see, what would happen is I would always have peers and colleagues pull me aside and say, "I was eavesdropping, and thank you. I never heard of redlining. I looked it up and then, wow, I can't believe this existed." These are my white counterparts that live where they benefited from redlining. They just wake up into a world where they have white picket fences and American flags and a 40-mile drive to the west. They see the hood and they're like, "Whoa what's wrong with these people?" Now they have the history to explain what's going on.

Some, they say, "Well, that was so long ago," but it's called lasting effects. In the same way a state can pass on assets and liabilities, there are things in history that happen that we benefit from and things that we have a liability on, and this is one of them.

Alison Stewart: There was a moment, and I can't remember if this is in the academy or when you were an officer, so forgive me, but it really stuck with me what happened. Somebody talked about, "Hey, be careful out there because now you look like the perps."

Edwin Raymond: Yes, so this was towards the end of the police academy.

Alison Stewart: Right, it wasn't the academy.

Edwin Raymond: Yes, it was one of the instructors that he was, essentially he was trying to say something positive. He basically said, "Don't become a victim of implicit bias." The problem is that he was using implicit bias, and that shows you how implicit it truly is. He essentially said, "If you're out there in certain communities and you see a Black or Hispanic person with a gun, don't just pull out your gun and start shooting, because they could-- he said, "The department is getting more and more diverse. We're starting to look more and more like perps." It stood out to me, I caught it immediately. He meant well, but that's how powerful implicit bias is.

Alison Stewart: You write about how a lot of the problems you saw within the NYPD stem from broken-windows policing. The theory is signs of disorder, vandalism, loitering, broken windows creates an environment where lawlessness can take root. Now that's a theory.

Edwin Raymond: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What can and has gone wrong when this theory is in the real world?

Edwin Raymond: Broken windows, the timing of broken windows to me is quite serendipitous, at the time where former Commissioner Bratton and Giuliani, Mayor Giuliani implemented broken windows there is a plummet in crime. This happens throughout the entire nation even in places where this isn't implemented, but this is what takes credit for crime dropping, and there are people who would stand firm and say we absolutely need this. To be clear, I'm not saying that we completely ignore minor infractions but to treat it like the crime of the century and come with the sledgehammer is not the way.

I've watched colleagues do the worst in the name of meeting their numbers because of quota-driven broken windows enforcement. From putting a kid in as a missing person just so a notification isn't made, so the arrest can stick because if you identify the kid, there's no need to arrest him. You can give him a summons but because you need an arrest, because the system says you have to have a certain amount within a certain time, you're putting this kid through the system so the kid has to go through the central bookings.

I've seen lieutenants make up infractions on the spot and say we have to be creative out here. I've seen everything from all types of racial profiling. The gray area is something that's exploited. That's just a euphemism for unconstitutional policing, but the way they rationalize it is we're trying to get the guns off the street. You just stop over, everyone in an infinity. There are cops in the NYPD who believe it's absolutely okay if they're working in certain parts of the city and they see a young black man driving an infinity to pull the car over and figure it out later. This is what this pressure "is broken windows." This is what has happened because of it.

Alison Stewart: What about officers who completely believe the opposite like you do? What do they do on a daily basis?

Edwin Raymond: Unfortunately, it's a serious price to pay, and prior to the NYPD 12, the lawsuit, et cetera, the police department's leadership would put you in performance monitoring and it's the first step in removing the protections of a union. If you don't change your behavior, at some point, you can get terminated. When you're 5, 6, 7, 8, 10 years in, you really can't afford to get terminated. You're halfway through to receiving a pension, so you fall in line. It eats you up inside but you fall in line. What some others do is they try to get off the hamster wheel by going to a specialized unit.

Alison Stewart: Oh interesting.

Edwin Raymond: You understand because--

Alison Stewart: Yes, get out, get away from it.

Edwin Raymond: Exactly. There's literally a saying in NYPD, "Patrol is for the birds," meaning no no one wants to do this. You understand? They try their best to get out of it. In some way, sometimes--

Alison Stewart: Which is so upsetting because patrol is how you're supposed to interact with the people in the street and the people in the neighborhood.

Edwin Raymond: Well assignments-- Another saying in NYPD is, "Patrol is the backbone of the job." It's both the backbone and for the birds, which, think about that, that dichotomy. Folks try to get off of patrol sometimes by leaning into the system and surpassing their quotas, which then puts them in a position to apply elsewhere. The period of time that they have to surpass the quota, people are being violated. It's a terrible system and the leadership needs to wake up and evolve.

Diversity is one of the things that they want to brag about today, but cosmetic diversity is worthless. This is not just about employment opportunity. True diversity, the true power of diversity, and what representation is supposed to bring is a diversity in thought. If you get a Black man, or Hispanic woman, or an Asian person, and you don't tap into everything that makes them unique and bring it into how we can police better, it's pointless.

To be able to put them together in a photo or in a recruitment ad and say, "Look, it's nothing that--" I would I don't care if everyone on the force is white. If you have the right thoughts and the right things are being implemented, I would much rather that than a police department that looks more like me and I'm being violated.

Alison Stewart: Were these quotas stated explicitly?

Edwin Raymond: 100, absolutely. They're always going to deny it because it's unlawful but day one, day one, they waste no time getting right into it. It was a trifecta, arrest, summonses, and stop and frisk. Those were the three numbers that we were given monthly.

Alison Stewart: My guest Edwin Raymond the name of his book is An Inconvenient Cop: My Fight to Change Policing in America. We'll have more with Edwin after a quick break. This is All Of It.

MUSIC - Luscious Jackson

Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Edwin Raymond. He is the author of An Inconvenient Cop: My Fight to Change Policing in America. It's a memoir about his time with the NYPD. A sergeant once told you your problem was you thought your job was "real". What did she mean by that?

Edwin Raymond: At the time I didn't get it. It was profound, esoteric. Basically, she realized that my problem, unfortunately, is that I expected the New York City Police Department to deliver on its mission statement. Public safety and everything that you mentioned in the intro, she says she basically because we laugh about it today, we're still friends. She said within a few months she realized that this just isn't what it is, but this is a career choice she's made and she has bills to pay.

She's going to try her best to not violate people but she is essentially going to go with the flow. That's what thousands of people do. Tens of thousands do because it's insane to go against a machine this powerful.

Alison Stewart: What do Black cops talk about when they get together off the record?

Edwin Raymond: Oof. Ooh. You really want that answer? Man, it's a-- wow. At that time, they're fed up, they feel powerless. Many of them ignore, they come up with all sorts of ways to suppress what's really going on because if they ever had to deal with it head-on, they probably wouldn't be able to do their job. They'd probably quit their jobs. They're torn because the job allows them to make a comfortable living and they feel stuck, many of them. To go back to school is expensive to go on another career path, so a lot of them are miserable.

In order to not deal with the misery of the reality of as I say dawning the uniform of the oppressor, they just they try to not pay attention to the cumulative sum of what's going on out there.

Alison Stewart: We saw a lot in 2020 and were young Black protestors and activists would just yell at black cops like, "You're not black, you're blue."

Edwin Raymond: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Is there something to that that being part of the system can change fundamentally your ethics?

Edwin Raymond: Yes, it happens. It absolutely happens, because you have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror. The detriments of the system is something you feel you're powerless to do anything about. It's easier to find excuses for it. It's easier to say, "I grew up in Brownsville. I kept my nose clean. If these people want to stay in Brownsville and behave like this, why should I feel sorry for them?" It's easier to say that than say, "You know what? Maybe it's not right to throw out a phishing net grabbing everyone for the work of less than 1%."

What are you going to do as rank and file about that phishing net, you understand? Unfortunately, people-- but I've seen people's entire politics switch because of this job that they can be fired from, one day they will have to tire from. They can quit from-- It's unbelievable. Their politics will go against every other box that they check, box that they can't change in the name of being part of this brotherhood. It's tribalism in a way that I've never experienced.

Alison Stewart: You were passed over for a series of promotions despite finishing the top 10 on the test, and you make a decision that you're going to make some recordings. What went into that decision? What were your pros and cons list when you were sitting down thinking, what am I going to do this?

Edwin Raymond: It's not something I enjoyed at all but I paid very close attention to the Floyd versus NYC case, the stop and frisk case. I watched as the department's leaders, one by one testified lies, just lying in their testimony. I remember thinking, wow, if you can't prove this, they're just going to be prepped by the attorneys and lie.

At the time, I didn't know exactly what was going to happen with the recordings, but I knew I wasn't going to switch my position in doing what was right and what was lawful so I figured no matter what's coming, I want to have the proof. I don't know what's coming. I might never need these recordings, but just in case, it's better to have than not have, but it's not something that I enjoyed at all. I didn't enjoy it. It was necessary to protect myself and be able to prove my case.

Alison Stewart: What was something that was recorded that was particularly damning for the force and for the leadership, I guess I should say.

Edwin Raymond: Oh, the expectation that this is reserved for Black and Brown communities, that's on the record. The fact that this is happening to me because I'm Black, the defenses of the system, the way that they're trying to steamroll my career and take my head off for daring to speak up just first internally before I even become a whistleblower. Then obviously, after using my First Amendment, they came even stronger.

What else? It's the existence of the quotas and the fact that this is the system. This is what it is. Just go along. Just play the game. All of that is recorded.

Alison Stewart: We reached out to the NYPD, as we should, have obviously for comment, and I'm going to read it to you. They sent to us, "We congratulate Mr. Raymond on his recent retirement from the New York City Police Department, and for his efforts, albeit, unsuccessful to win elected office during his time with the NYPD. However, Mr. Raymond never proposed any initiative or program to department leadership that would suggest he was interested in reforming the policing profession, whether parochial nationally, or globally. Despite that reality, we certainly remain open to hearing or reading about any ideas he might now foster." Is that true that you never proposed any initiative or program?

Edwin Raymond: That's absolutely untrue and whoever-- I won't take it out on the person with the task to write that lie. They're just doing their jobs. They're just going with the flow. They're just playing the game. It is not true at all. As early as 2014, I was chosen to be part of then Commissioner Bratton's Re-Engineering 2014 initiative where many ideas were proposed and weren't implemented as well as I've been very public about, not just criticizing what's wrong, I've been ready to say what we should be doing.

I've said it that you are the chief. We have a chain of command. You call me to the office. I can't just walk into your office, two. Three, I sat down with top officials in this current administration in the spring of 2022, proposing plans. I've emailed plans. This is the third time I've heard this because now it's just a template that they send out to all media. NYPD, I know you're listening. The next time you send that out, I will come with the receipts. If you want to sit down and have this conversation, you know how to find me. You know where to find me. If I have to read that again, if I have to hear that again, people will be embarrassed. All right? Reach out. You know how to reach me.

Alison Stewart: What has this experience been like for your mental health?

Edwin Raymond: Oh, I got to quote Tupac, the late Tupac Shakur, "Dying inside, but outside, you're looking fearless." This is not-- I hate this. There are people who think, "Oh, look, he just wants to be in front of another camera. He's just on and now it's all, look, he's just trying to sell books, et cetera". No. This has not been fun. I survived the impossible given the hands of cards that I was dealt.

For that reason, I'm both the last person that should be doing this and ironically, the best person to do this, because I know what it feels like to suffer. You cannot do this without suffering but I don't enjoy it and I don't deserve it. This has not been good. Therapy has been great. The people that love and care about me, their support has been great.

The many people on the social media who reach out, every single comment, it matters. There are videos that people send me. I replay them. I'm so thankful for the support system, but this has not been easy at all.

Alison Stewart: What is a small change that could happen? Could happen next week if someone had the political will and wanted to change, some small change that can make a really big difference, that really wouldn't be that big a deal to do.

Edwin Raymond: Honestly, cops have to be motivated to do their jobs optimally. The simple quotas and the pressure without officers understanding what they're contributing to, forced to believe the lie of this is just for public safety. Reach out to cops, the people at the bottom, the rank and file. Ask them about how things can be improved and we will get a different police department.

We need the justice-minded officers, which exist to be elevated into positions of power, into leadership positions. I think about Captain Derby St. Fort, who is pure talent, a visionary, someone ready to take the policing, not just in the NYPD, but to be a national model. Someone who's stymied and his legs are cut off and he can't be promoted simply because he dares to do things differently.

If the NYPD was to invest in the many talented individuals that exist, put them in positions of leadership, we will have a different police department. In New York City that can be an example for the nation.

Alison Stewart: Our mayor is a former police officer. What would you like to see him do?

Edwin Raymond: I'm confused by the mayor. I looked up to the mayor early in my career. He's been a mentor. He's been supportive. What I've seen in the New York City Police Department is not a reflection of the man that I've known for over a decade. It's not a reflection of the activist that we all fell in love with.

It's a reflection of something very different. The mayor has the opportunity to make sure the current leadership behaves in a way that reflects those values that we respect about him and the mayor has an opportunity to empower folks like Captain Derby St. Fort.

Alison Stewart: The name of the book is An Inconvenient Cop, My Fight to Change Policing in America. My guest has been Edwin Raymond. Edwin, thank you for being here. Take care of yourself.

Edwin Raymond: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It.

 

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