Destiny's Child Self-Titled Debut (Silver Liner Notes)

Kelly Rowland, left, Beyonce Knowles, center, and Michelle Williams of Destiny's Child appear at the second annual Fashion Rocks concert in New York on Sept. 8, 2005.
( AP Photo/Diane Bondareff )

Summary Transcript

[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We continue our Silver Liner Notes series by moving from boy bands to girl groups. 1998 saw the beginning of one of the most successful singing acts in pop music, Destiny's Child. Their 1998 self-titled debut introduced the Houston-based group with four members, Beyoncé Knowles, Kelly Rowland, LeToya Luckett, and LaTavia Roberson. Michelle Williams was not yet part of the squad. It featured a kind of neo soul sound that feels fairly different from the future hits the group would produce, though you can hear some of that pop magic potential in tracks like this one, Illusion.

[playing Illusion]

Have to say

Boy, I love you but I gotta let you go

Everyday in my mind is confusion (baby)

Thoughts of you bring illusions

Trapped in the moment, only you get in

My mind's playing tricks on me again

Days in my mind is confusion

Thoughts of you bring illusions

Trapped in the moment, only you get in

My mind's playing tricks on me again

Alison Stewart: The album peaked at 67 on the Billboard 200, setting on the stage for their super successful 1999 follow-up, The Writing's on the Wall, which featured smash hits like Say My Name and Bills, Bills, Bills. Of course, it introduced the world to a future superstar, Beyoncé, who just this year became the artist with the most Grammy wins of all time. Joining us now is part of our Silver Liner Notes series, celebrating albums released 25 years ago is journalist, Emil Wilbekin, who is working at Vibe magazine in 1998 when the debut Destiny's Child album was released. He was the editor-in-chief from 1999 to 2004. Emil, hi.

Emil Wilbekin: Hi. How are you?

Alison Stewart: Doing well. Also want to let you know, we do have a super caller, who's going to check in late. We'll keep that a secret for now.

Emil Wilbekin: Okay.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, we do want to hear from you, what do you remember about the first Destiny's Child album? Were you a fan back in '98? What's your favorite track from that first album? Do you have a favorite member? We want to hear your thoughts on the very first Destiny's Child album. Give us a call, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC, calling all Destiny's Child superfans. Our social media @allofitwnyc, that is Twitter and Instagram. Okay, so Emil, for people who are not familiar with Destiny's Child or think of them only as a trio, they might be confused looking at this album cover, there are four young women on this cover. How did this original foursome form?

Emil Wilbekin: Well, it's a very interesting kind of origin story for Destiny's Child, because before they were Destiny's Child, they were actually called Girl Tyme. Girl Tyme actually consisted of six members, including Beyoncé, Kelly, and LeToya Luckett, and then some other women. They were featured on Star Search, the big TV show, and they did not win, but that is the first peak of what would become Beyoncé and Destiny's Child. [crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: Let me dive in real quick because we actually found the audio of that.

Emil Wilbekin: Oh, good, [chuckles] yay.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a listen to the very original lineup.

Ed McMahon: Your challengers are a young group from Houston. Welcome, Beyoncé, LaTavia, Nina, Nicky, Kelly, and Ashley, the hip-hop rapping, Girls Tyme.

[applause]

Here's what you would jam

Yeah, GT in the house

With a brand new slam

Guaranteed to make you jam

While you're eating your green eggs and ham

Go check it out

Hey, it's time to get busy

Yeah, beat drop

I've got a secret

But ain't gonna tell you

Unless you promise

Alison Stewart: All right. They're pulling from them all. I hear a little TLC, a little Janet, and it's interesting because that was what was going on. They were sort of like grown and sexy En Vogue singers, that group as well. In the early days, what lane was Destiny's Child in, or were they just trying to figure it out?

Emil Wilbekin: Well, I think they were trying to figure it out. That was a very interesting time in music where you had Mariah Carey, and Whitney Houston, and Aaliyah, you had all these different women who had really strong-- Lauren Hill, really strong voices. They were all telling very different strong women stories. This is also the time of neo soul, and so I think they were trying to have them be almost adult contemporary, but then were smart enough to add in remixes, which I think is what saves Destiny's Child.

I think the first album sounds a little mature for teenage girls at that time, but it is in keeping with the mood of the music. Janet is topping the charts, all this great music. You also have a lot of great male R&B stars at the time, Usher and Maxwell. It's an interesting time in Black music.

Alison Stewart: All right. We start with six members, we get down to four members. When did Michelle Williams join the group, and when did we get to three members of Destiny's Child?

Emil Wilbekin: [chuckles] The four members are featured on Destiny's Child, featured on The Writing's on the Wall, and then Michelle shows up, and LaTavia and LeToya exit when Survivor comes out, and that's in 2001.

Alison Stewart: If you had to venture to guess, what led to the exit of the two ladies?

Emil Wilbekin: That's one of the biggest, darkest, most talked about dramas and secrets in the music industry. I read something recently that someone wrote at the time, in between the separation, and they said there was so much tension between the women. I think that Mathew Knowles, Beyoncé's father, had a very clear vision of what he wanted the group to be. I think to the point of your last guest, they really wanted to model it after The Supremes. Three seemed easier.

I think that Michelle brought a certain-- her gospel vocals to the group. Then it's like a visual with the Knowles. Even Ms. Tina and Mathew, it's like, "How does this look?" I think the three of them, Kelly is considered one of the daughters of the family. She and Beyoncé are very close, and then Michelle just blended in, and there you have it.

Alison Stewart: We are talking about the 25th anniversary of Destiny's Child's debut album. My guest is journalist and former editor-in-chief of Vibe magazine, Emil Wilbekin. We have someone special on the line. Actually, listeners, we're going to get you on the line as well. 212-433-9692. Want to hear from Destiny's Child's superfans, if you have a favorite track from that album or favorite Destiny's Child song, but let's bring in a producer from the album, a founding member of Tony! Toni! Toné! It's D'wayne Wiggins. Hey, D'wayne.

D'wayne Wiggins: Hello, hello. How are you?

Alison Stewart: Hello, hello. How are you? Thank you for making time for us today. When did you first encounter Destiny's Child?

D'wayne Wiggins: [unintelligible 00:07:27]

Alison Stewart: When did you first encounter these young women?

D'wayne Wiggins: Well, as Destiny's Child, I first encountered them, the day I remember that. There were definitely six of them, and they were like a dance group, singing group, everything, all in one. When I first met Beyoncé, she was nine years old. She was being produced by a couple of guys out in the Bay Area in San Francisco, Oakland. A good friend of mine, Alonzo.

I remember, I think later on, I think it was around '94 or '95, I happen to be at the studio. I was looking at a picture of them on the wall, and I think some years later I asked and I said, "What's going on with that group there? What happened to that girl's group you're working on?" "They were signed to something else and the father was looking for something." I got a call from Mathew, I think that was in 1995, that's when it happened. [crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: D'wayne, when you first started working with them, what were their strengths, and then what were the things you needed to work on with Destiny's Child, when you first came in as a producer?

D'wayne Wiggins: I had to work on myself [unintelligible 00:08:39]

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Oh, we lost D'wayne. Well, we'll get him back in a little bit. Emil, I want to play their track from the album-- I'm going to play the track, Birthday. What should we be listening for on Birthday that tells us a little bit of something about the debut of Destiny's Child?

Emil Wilbekin: Birthday, I think really sets the tone for what we will know of Destiny's Child, and this very empowered, self-actualized young women. It's something that resonates with a lot of folks. There is this one line, it's like, "It's your birthday. You don't have to do anything, but what you want to do. Don't go to work. Don't do any of these things." It's just something that resonates with people. It's Beyoncé now telling people to quit their jobs.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Let's listen to Birthday from Destiny's Child.

The time has come

And it's finally here

Have a candle lit dinner

Or just settle down my dear

Whatever you like boy it's all up to you

We can celebrate baby

'Cause it's your birthday

Now close your eyes babe Listen to the melody

Anything you want my sweet

Just ask me

It's the day for us to share

Alison Stewart: That was from Destiny's Child's first album which came out 25 years ago. This week we'll have more of our Silver Liner Notes series after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. This is our Silver Liner Notes series where we celebrate album's 25th anniversary. Today we are talking about the debut of Destiny's Child, their very first album. My guest is Emil Wilbekin, journalist and former editor-in-chief of Vibe magazine, and we were able to get D'wayne back on the line. D'wayne Wiggins, producer on the album and founding member of Tony! Toni! Toné!. Sorry about the technical difficulties, D'wayne. When you first started working on this album, what was the goal?

D'wayne Wiggins: The goal for me as a producer is to develop the artist. First of all, it was a different goal for me because they were minors. It was my first time ever producing minors, under 18. They were 13 to 14 when I signed them. That was my goal, is to, "How am I going to work with this?" They were so strong vocally. I wrote songs. It was funny when I was listening to the gentleman saying the first album was really mature. I know that damn sure was.

[laughter]

D'wayne Wiggins: A whole lot of guitar on that bad boy. My goal was, I was like, "I'm going to produce them like the Jacksons." The Jacksons had old-school writers and they're writing songs that grown people would sing, but it just made it work with a younger generation because young Michael and the family delivering those songs. That was my goal, was to write songs.

As you can see, that first song that started out, Second Nature, that was one that starts out with the blue flick and it went in. That happened to be one of the ones that gave us the, I guess, I would say the direction of how I span it. It was fun. It was really fun though. The old school tracks like that, taking grooves and inspirations from Al Green and the [unintelligible 00:12:27].

I had a lot of fun writing tracks with them and producing. Especially, Beyoncé had a special thing about how she liked the vocals going down. As I said, I was learning from her, from them after a while. I was like, "Lay something out," and she'd be like, "Let me change that note." I'm like, "Well, you are on your own right now because it sounds fly to me."

Alison Stewart: I want to ask you about when you worked on the follow-up, what kind of adjustments or what did you know you needed to do to help these young women evolve? because the next album really was the big breakthrough album.

D'wayne Wiggins: That was definitely the breakthrough album and I didn't see it coming. I enjoyed working with them on the second one because that was one of my first time venturing out with other producers in my camp. Fresh new sounds and stuff. I didn't let them stay within the Tony's lane with old school. First, they wasn't going to stay there in the first place. The first thing Beyonce said is like, "D'wayne, we don't want no more old school. We just want to have fun."

[laughter]

D'wayne Wiggins: [crosstalk]

Alison Stewart: D'wayne, let me ask you one more question before I let you go. This is a little bit of a tangent. I heard that Tony! Toni! Toné! is reuniting and going on tour. Truth?

D'wayne Wiggins: Absolutely, yes. It's been a long time coming. My passion has been since our last album and that was '96, and then I signed them in '95. I was so into finding who's the next big thing. I just started working with a lot of up-and-coming artists. I'm really looking forward to getting back with my brother on that stage because that's home for us.

Destiny Child was produced to what I would call the Tony School of Music, TSM. Our style is being able to perform live no matter how big or how small the audience is. If you can't be that extra dope performer, the music becomes a score to you. People learn to like you. It's all about grooming the next generation. That group definitely took it to the next level.

Alison Stewart: D'wayne Wiggins, thank you so much for joining us today. Emil, I want to swing back to you. It was interesting D'wayne saying that Beyoncé had thoughts, even at that young age, that she had plans and she had thoughts. When you think about her original role in the group, was she a standout from the beginning or was that something that happened as they matured?

Emil Wilbekin: The Birthday song spoke for itself. It's like Beyoncé is the vocalist and she really stands out. On most of the tracks on that album, you can literally hear her voice over everyone else's. I think that's what makes her such a singular artist and a singular singer. She's very clear and has always been very clear about how she wants to be positioned.

Alison Stewart: The biggest hit from the album is No, No, No, A track that had two different versions released on the same album, a slower version and then a more up-tempo version featuring Wyclef Jean. Let's listen to a little bit of the slow version first.

You'll be sayin' no, no, no, no, no

When it's really yes, yes, yes, yes, yes

You'll be sayin' no, no, no, no, no

When it's really yes, yes, yes, yes, yes

Alison Stewart: Now the Wyclef Jean remix.

This is the remix

The jeeps pump this new remix

This is the remix

Radio's play this remix

This is the remix

The crups pump this remix

This is the remix

The refugees camp have the remix

Destiny's child

Alison Stewart: What do you make of this strategy, Emil?

Emil Wilbekin: Here's the thing. Back then in Black music and radio, up-tempo songs were doing really well and really slow jam ballad songs. Particularly New York versus the Midwest, there was a big difference, so they took this risk of releasing the same track, a more up-tempo, the Wyclef remix, and this very blue lights in the basement version. I think what's really interesting about that strategy is they were doing an A/B test to see what stuck. Clearly, the Wyclef version won. [laughs] I think if you hear that song even now in the club, people will go crazy because this is the most telling sign of what would become Destiny's Child and even Beyoncé.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to another single from the album With Me, Part 1, it's a little more up-tempo. Let's check it out.

Ha-ha-ha-ha..., uh, uh, come on

Uh, everything you like is with me

So if you know like I know (Oh)

This is where you need to be

Do you ever wonder when he

Don't come home, who he goes to see?

And why in the middle of the night

He leaves you alone, leaves you alone? (He's with me)

Do you ever wonder when he (He)

Alison Stewart: In that track, that's where I hear it En Vogue. It's really interesting because when you start to listen to these back, you realize they were really showing that they could do it all and almost trying to figure out which lane was it going to be.

Emil Wilbekin: Absolutely. This one's great because it really leans to what was happening with music at the time with the southern Black music movement, which was southern hip hop, southern rap, and a lot of R&B groups from the south. This is when, what D'wayne mentioned, they start having fun. You have Master P on there. It's more youthful.

Alison Stewart: One of our producers is very excited because she recognized that Beyoncé references an old track from this album on Partition. Let's hear a little bit of the original With Me.

Certain things ain't meant to be

And that's why, that's why he's right here with me (Uhhh)

[Break: Jermaine Dupri]

Everything you like is with me

So if you know like I know, this is where you need to be

Everything you like is with me

So if you know like I know, this is where you need to be

Everything you like is with me

So if you know like I know, this is where you need to be

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to the Partition track.

Of me (of me)

I just wanna be the girl you like, girl you like

The kind of girl you like, girl you like

Is right here with me

Alison Stewart: We're laughing because the person who figured this out was two years old at the time when this came out.

[laughter]

Emil Wilbekin: I love that.

Alison Stewart: Which is interesting, because for people like you and me, this is nostalgia, we were there, but then there's a whole other audience for whom this is interesting and new, the original Destiny's Child.

Emil Wilbekin: Absolutely.

Alison Stewart: Honestly, do you think the record holds up?

Emil Wilbekin: I think the album as a whole does not hold up. I think that they are teenagers singing about things that are very mature. I think the production and the instrumentation and the writing is all really great, but I think it's too mature for them. To your point, they were searching, like, "What's going to [unintelligible 00:19:49]?" I think No, No, No is a standout that really sets the tone, like I said, for Destiny's Child and even for Beyoncé, particularly the Wyclef remix I just think is really powerful. It ended up being a top song, like number 12 on the Billboard 100 that year, so pretty, pretty cool to have at least one hit that really breaks them out.

Alison Stewart: When did the choreography and the dancing become a part of the Destiny's Child brand?

Emil Wilbekin: That starts on The Writing's on the Wall. That's when you really start-- If you think about the Bills, Bills, Bills video, this is when you see the glam has ramped up, they're a little older now, so they're a little bit more owning their womanness. The choreography, like you said, it's Motown. They're going to dance, they're going to sing, they're going to look amazing. Nobody can dance, and sing, and breathe the way Beyoncé does. Period.

Alison Stewart: She is an athlete.

Emil Wilbekin: She is. She really is.

Alison Stewart: The next album, 1999's The Writing's on the Wall, that was the huge one. Bills, Bills, Bills, Say My Name, Jumpin', Jumpin'. What was the biggest change they made that you think really helped that album take off?

Emil Wilbekin: I think the biggest change is that they really tapped into that energy of no, no, no, no, no. They're being very feminist, they're being very bold. It's a very hip hop attitude, but from a woman's perspective, and it's very empowered.

Alison Stewart: It's clear that when Beyoncé did the Super Bowl, they did a Destiny's Child reunion. She clearly has fond feelings for that. I'm curious what you think about that in terms of her own brand now.

Emil Wilbekin: She's the biggest artist in history, arguably, at this point, particularly with her Grammy wins. I think Destiny's Child was very foundational, she's very about family and community, so she's never going to give that up. We all want a Destiny's Child reunion, we're begging for it, but I don't know if it's ever going to happen. I think part of it is a bunch of behind-the-scenes stuff that we don't really know. I do think Destiny's Child is very important, particularly to Black women, young people, and the Black queer community. They know the songs back and forth, and it really speaks to, again, empowerment and self-actualization.

Alison Stewart: This has been our Silver Liner Notes series, celebrating the 25th anniversary of big albums. We have been talking about Destiny's Child's debut album with Emil Wilbekin, journalist and former editor-in-chief of Vibe magazine. Emil, thank you so much for joining us.

Emil Wilbekin: Oh, thank you, Alison. Always a pleasure.

Alison Stewart: Let's go out on Killing Time.

[Killing Time by Destiny's Child playing]

Sitting on the stairway

Hoping that you're ok

Waiting patiently

For you to come back to me (What should I do)

I don't mind the waiting

As long as there's still maybe

A possibility

For you to be true to me

Ill be sitting on the stairway

Till a quarter

[music cuts]

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