[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you're here. On today's show, just in time for Valentine's Day. Author-comedian Lane Moore will be with us to talk about her new book about dating pitfalls. We'll also hear from the co-writer and the lead of the play, Between Two Knees. They'll join us to discuss how they find the funny and the traumatic history of indigenous people.

We'll also talk about the big transformation of Williamsburg since 1988. Maybe you saw that New York Times piece, well, we'll speak with its author and take your calls. Plus, later in the show, we will be announcing our February Get Lit with All Of It musical guest. That is our plan, so let's get this started with the King of Jingles himself, Steve Karmen, who wrote this.

[music]

Wrigley Spearmint gum gum gum

Wrigley Spearmint gum gum gum

Wrigley Spearmint gum

Carry the mint fresh flavor wherever you go, whatever you do

It's a funny stack of flavor wherever you go, whatever you do

Wrigley Spearmint gum gum gum

[Carry it with you]

Wrigley Spearmint gum gum gum

[the mint fresh flavor]

Wrigley Spearmint gum gum gum

[Carry it with you]

Wrigley Spearmint gum gum gum

[the mint fresh flavor]

Wrigley Spearmint gum

Carry the mint fresh flavor wherever you go, whatever you do

Alison Stewart: It's a classic. Super Bowl Sunday is rapidly approaching. While some may be watching the action on the field, there are those who are more interested in the commercials which is prime real estate in the ad world. At this year's Super Bowl, it is costing companies $7 million for just 30 seconds of air time. Jingles and commercials have a long history with countless catchy tunes that no doubt have been living rent-free in your head for years like this Budweiser jingle from the '70s.

[MUSIC - Steve Karmen: Here Comes the King]

Budweiser Beer is the one that's leading the rest

And beechwood aging makes its beer at its best

One taste will tell you, so loud and clear

There's only one Budweiser beer, there's only one Budweiser beer

Alison Stewart: Or maybe the famous Hershey Jingle.

[MUSIC - Steve Karmen: Hershey Jingle]

Even if you cross the [unintelligible 00:02:19]

It really doesn't matter where you are

[unintelligible 00:02:23] that Hershey is

The great American, great American chocolate bar

Alison Stewart: Or this one, promoting a Poconos Resort from the '80s.

[MUSIC - Steve Karmen: Nevele Jingle]

There's a place you go to set your spirit free

When you want some fun and hospitality

Where you feel like home and you plan to be at the Nevele.

Alison Stewart: All of those jingles and many, many more were composed by Steve Karmen, a born and raised New Yorker who has been called by some, the King of the Jingle. Throughout his career, he has worked with all kinds of companies, cars, beers, gum, and even state governments. He is the man behind New York State's famous, I Love New York theme song which of course we're going to listen to in a little bit, but first, a hearty welcome to, Steve Karmen. Hi, Steve.

Steve Karmen: Good morning, Alison. It's a pleasure to hear your voice.

Alison Stewart: So happy to have you aboard.

Steve Karmen: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, let's have some fun on this Friday. What is a commercial jingle that you just can't seem to get out of your head? Maybe it's one from your childhood, or one from your adult life, one from today. Call in, tell us your pick, and if you're feeling up to it, sing it to us as well. Phone lines are open. 212-433-WNYC, 212-433-9692. You may join me and Steve on the air, or you can text WhatsApp that number as well, 212-433-9692. Our social media is open as well @allofitwnyc.

Maybe you have questions for Steve Karmen who made so many iconic jingles in his career, all about his process. I'm going to ask a few right now. All right, so Steve, what does it mean to write something catchy? Are there certain notes or chord progressions that are guaranteed to hit?

Steve Karmen: No, it doesn't work that way. I was in the business for a long, long time and I haven't written a jingle for at least 15 or 20 years, a long time, but when the music that you played earlier was really popular, it was not just-- There's no secret, but there is a strategy. That's the big word that we were always faced with when we went to the meeting. What is the strategy of this campaign?

What you hear today, to my mind, seems to be developed without any strategy whatsoever. People are putting songs on-- To me, a pop song doesn't represent a product. It represents the pop song. Unless you sing the word or the name of the product someplace in there, to me, the advertising fails. Now, I know I'm in a very dark minority here, but advertising, my view of the advertising world is that, when you look at how the commercials are made today, this is the face of America's economy. That's what advertising is supposed to be, and right now, it's very shaky. You hear music all over the place in commercials, and very few of them mention the name of the product. To me, that's the name of the game.

I was in the advertising business. I was not passing through between writing a Broadway show or-- That was my business, advertising, and I studied it. The way to make successful advertising is to come up with a strategy. What do you want to say about the product? And leave me alone and let me write something that is inspired by what you're out to say. Sometimes it works as you just played, and sometimes it doesn't, but at least it's aimed at putting the name of the product out there and that's not what happens today.

Alison Stewart: May I ask, what's your musical background?

Steve Karmen: Well, I graduated from the Bronx High School of Science. I have no musical background. I'm self-taught.

Alison Stewart: You're smart is what you are. [laughs]

Steve Karmen: I hope so. When you look back on all the stuff that I have produced, I think some of it is really outstanding. The thing that I like most about what you just played is there's nothing on the air like it now. It's a different sound, granted it came from a different era, but at least when you heard it, you recognized what the product was, and many times you could sing along with it.

I don't know. People say, "Where did you get the talent?" I think it's a gift. What I did is I worked at it and honed my gift. Whenever I had a problem, I called someone and asked the question, but I have no musical training. I didn't go to music school. As I say, I went to the Bronx High School of Science. I graduated in 1954. I have a sense, Alison, that you might not have been around by then.

Alison Stewart: My parents got married in 1954 actually.

Steve Karmen: Oh, okay.

Alison Stewart: My sister came along two years later. I was about a decade after that. How do you go from Bronx Science to jingle writing? Did you want to go into advertising always?

Steve Karmen: No. I was in science on a supposed path to become a doctor or something like that. It's a wonderful school, but I should have gone to a music school. I didn't, but there was another kid at Science High School whose name was Bobby Cassotto, and he changed his name later to Bobby Darin.

Alison Stewart: Oh. [laughs]

Steve Karmen: He started an act, and he wanted me to be his guitarist, so I went out and bought a guitar, and a week later we were doing an act. We went on the road and played nightclubs all over and did a couple of TV shows. It was something that, when you hear applause the first time, I mean real applause. You finish a song and all of a sudden you've got 500 people clapping and whistling, whatever. This is a very addictive thing.

My career with Bobby was very short-lived because he needed someone who was a better musician than I, and that's a true story. He went out on his own, and I decided to try to become a singer. I fixed up my guitar a little bit and I started to do a folk act. I worked in clubs for about 10 years, and then folk was no longer popular. Someone once joked that I missed every trend. This is what happens.

Then I had a friend living across the street. We lived out in Rockville Center, Long Island then, who was in the advertising production business. He was the guy that filmed the commercials. He said, "Can you write a score for a 30-second spot?" I had been scoring low-budget movies where I had to do an hour's worth of music and 30 seconds was a breeze, and all of a sudden, here's the business.

That's the short story but it represents a lot, a lot, a lot of effort. When I talk to young people these days I say, "You've got to study. You have to woodshed your instrument. You have to practice and practice, and when you don't know, you ask a question and become a pain in the butt, but this is how people will recognize you." I banged on a lot of doors, Alison.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] I'm glad a few of them opened. My guest is Steve Karmen. He is the king of the jingle. He is a composer. He is an ad man. We are talking about jingles that have had meaning in your life that you just can't get enough of. Steve has written the Budweiser jingle, the Hershey jingle, the Nevele jingle which-- Nevele, by the way, in [unintelligible 00:09:43], not Poconos. Thanks for the shout-out from somebody who let us know.

Steve Karmen: Tada.

Alison Stewart: We've got a lot of calls. Let's take some calls, Steve. Here's Aaron calling in from East Meadow, New York. Hi, Aaron.

Aaron: HI. I've got a brief one for you which I think makes for a good jingle. I think this checks all the boxes. It's catchy, it's short, and it portrays the product accurately. Are you ready?

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Steve Karmen: Go.

Aaron: [sings]

Give me a break

Give me a break

Break me off a piece of that KitKat Bar

Steve Karmen: Very good. That's a wonderful piece of music, by the way. There has recently been a spot where they just play the music. I mean, on television, just play the music. Daddle-da-da, daddle da-da, dabba-da-pa-pa dada-pa-pa, but you know what it is because you've heard it, and it's been consistent under the advertising for KitKat. That's half the game. If you can get a sound of your own and just keep putting it out there. It's non-offensive, it's cute, and it marries into the video, and people accept that automatically by hearing the melody. That's a really good spot. One of the very few, I may add, that makes any impact today. There's a lot of terrible stuff out there. We won't go into that now.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Sabrina from New York City, who has pulled over to call us. Hi, Sabrina.

Sabrina: Hi. How are you? I would like to sing a quick jingle that was a lullaby that I sang to my baby. He is now 20 years old as of yesterday, but he will know this very well. It goes like this. [sings]

Soft is the very first feeling you know

It's the feeling you never outgrow

Johnson's baby powder

It's a feeling you never outgrow

Sabrina: That was sung by Amy Roslyn years ago. I just love that jingle.

Steve Karmen: That's wonderful that you remember it.

Alison Stewart: Steve, I love that it has a memory for her with her child.

Steve Karmen: Yes, absolutely.

Alison Stewart: It's not just about the product. It's about a time in their lives.

Steve Karmen: That's right. When she sings it to her child sitting on her knee at that point, or being cradled in her arm, and this has become something that maybe puts the baby to sleep, it makes a difference. Later on in life, as he has heard it, all of a sudden, he recognizes this is what mommy sang, and I see it being sold on that counter.

Alison Stewart: I want to play another one of your fabulous jingles. This one people will know right away. I'm just going to play it. I'm not even going to set it up. Go for it.

[MUSIC - Nationwide Insurance commercial]

Who can you call on for better insurance?

Who can you call nationwide?

Who can you count on for blanket protection?

And know that you'll find peace of mind?

Call Nationwide

Cause Nationwide is on your side.

Alison Stewart: Steve, I feel like you take us on a journey with that one.

Steve Karmen: We're all getting old out here, Alison, you know? Talking to Tubkid. What? No. Well, Nationwide, believe it or not, I believe is the longest-running campaign in the history of television. I wrote that in 1967. As you note, there's a whole lyric there, and people used to advertise with a full lyric. Now you see products and they come up with one cute line, and then they sing it, and they think they're hitting home runs. Again, I am in favor of something that will sit back in the back roads of your memory and allow you to remember something in a nice way. That's how they sell a product.

Alison Stewart: Let's take another call. Rachel calling in from Nyack. Hi, Rachel. Thanks for calling in. You're on the air with Steve.

Rachel: [sings]

I look for the union label

When you are buying a coat, pants, or dress.

Steve Karmen: Pam pa-ra pam-pam-pam

Rachel: [sings]

Remember somewhere

Your union’s sewing

Your union's sewing

[laughs]

Steve Karmen: [vocal percussions]

Rachel: How could you forget that one?

Steve Karmen: Send a picture. Leave a picture by the door. We'll call your agent.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Let's talk to Tessa who is calling in from Brooklyn. Hey Tessa?

Tessa: Hey. How's it going?

Alison Stewart: Going great. Are you going to sing for us?

Tessa: Yes. I'm an '80s baby, so cinnamon gum was really popular. I'm going to do the Big Red Gum jingle. Okay?

Alison & Steve: Yes.

Tessa: [sings]

So kiss a little longer

Stay close a little longer

Make it last a little longer

Longer with Big Red

That Big Red freshness lasts right through it

Your fresh breath goes on and on

While you chew it

Say goodbye a little longer

Make it last a little longer

Keep your breath long-lasting freshness with Big Red

Boom

[laughs]

Steve Karmen: That sounds wonderful.

Alison Stewart: Tessa.

Steve Karmen: Where do you remember hearing that?

Tessa: Oh, definitely on TV. I was partially raised by TV, and I'm now a commercial director, so it's like this big full-circle thing.

Steve Karmen: That's great.

Alison Stewart: Tessa, thank you for calling in. Steve, what was your first jingle? Let's go back to that. What was your first jingle?

Steve Karmen: I call it the first hit that I had. After doing a lot of little low-budget things and background scores, that's how you start. You write the background score for something. The first real hit I had was,

You can take Salem out of the country

But you can't take the country out of Salem

Cigarette advertising was legal then. In those days, there were three networks and a couple of minor stations in each town, and when you got something on a network, the whole country heard it. The ability to reach people then was so much easier than it is today. You Could Take Salem Out Of The Country was my first big hit with that. Then someone called me-- I love the stories because someone called me and said, "Hey, you're the guy that wrote Salem, right?" "Yes," I said. "Would you like to write for Budweiser?" "Of course." The first thing I wrote for Bud was a campaign called Bud is the King of Beers, But you know that. It ran until 1970, and then they wanted to change the campaign. Then I wrote;

[sings]

[vocal percussions]

When you say, Bud

You said a lot of things nobody else can say

Pum pum

When you say, Bud

It became a huge hit, and it ran for Budweiser for almost 15 years. We changed the lyrics, [sings] for all you do This Bud's for you, but the same melody. Advertisers don't do that today. Now they want a little cute phrase. I call it the Munchkin song. You'll forgive me. Liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty, liberty. Some people may like it, God bless them, but to me, that's not real solid advertising. It's been running for a couple of years. They drill it into your head anyway. If you really want to advertise, to me, the best mechanism is music. The reason is that music reaches everybody. If you do the right kind of thing, you can make a living from this.

Alison Stewart: As proven by the long and illustrious career of Steve Karmen. He is the king of the jingle. Our phone lines are full, so we're going to take a quick break. We're going to line up some more jingle singers. We'll have more with Steve Karmen after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. My guest is Steve Karmen, the composer, the admin, the king of the jingles. He's written so many of the jingles you've heard throughout your life. He is joining us as well as you listeners who are calling in with jingles that still stay with you. Steve, let's take some more calls. Let's talk to Melissa, calling in from Mineola. Hi, Melissa.

Melissa: Hi. Good morning. How's everybody doing this afternoon?

Alison Stewart: Great.

Steve Karmen: [sings]

It's a long way to Mineola

It's a long way to ride

It's a long way to Mineola

Seven stops past oceanside

I met my girlfriend out in Mineola

Steve Karmen: I'm blowing the lyric here.

[sings]

And she was my bride-to-be

Now I live with her in Mineola

And her family lives off me.

Steve Karmen: Whatever. Anyway. Next.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: You were serenaded, Melissa. All right, hit us with your jingle you love.

Melissa: That was amazing. Thank you so much-

Steve Karmen: Thank you.

Melissa: -for that. I really appreciate it. My earliest, I think, remembrance of a commercial is, the best part of waking up Folgers in your cup.

Steve Karmen: Yes. You know what made that great? Because they stuck with it. They had different video from time to time, but they stuck with that idea. It was a beautiful melody, and it worked in 30 seconds. Today, I challenge you to recognize things that have lasting value. It just doesn't work today. I think advertising creative people are lazy. What they want today is to pick up a pop song someplace and they figure they got it, but that was a wonderful-- What is the line? Last drop in your cup? Is Folgers in your cup.

Alison Stewart: Is Folgers in your cup. Let's talk to Eileen from Weehawken. This goes along with coffee in the morning.

Eileen: Hi

Alison Stewart: Hi, Eileen. Go.

Eileen: Hello. Yes, morning. You're talking about the cereal I call in with although I want to give a shout-out because you're the [unintelligible 00:20:19], Steve. My '80s New York City stuff comes back to House of Grossman. [sings] One look and you know the House of Grossman. Also Food Emporium, but anyway, I called with two cereal commercials from the probably early '60s late '70s. One is, the kids today, they don't know Pig Latin anymore, but if they've been around when I was, they would have learned the original Froot Loops song, which was;

[sings]

Crispy and the delicious day

for breakfast and for acking snay

made with real fruit, avor flay

Oot-Fray oops-lay.

Eileen: That was Froot Loops sung by Toucan Sam. No, not Tou-- Anyway, maybe. The other was to the tune of, I believe it's from The Nutcracker, and you referenced other jingles that had been put to pre-existing themes, was for Crispy Critters, which was basically animal shapes, alphabets, the oats cereal. A stampede would go across and the theme was; [sings]

The one and only cereal

that comes in the shape of animal.

Eileen: That was the little Crispy Critters thing.

Steve Karmen: You have a wonderful voice. Serious. Have you pursued this professionally?

Eileen: Well, I am a songwriter and my most lucrative opportunity came writing English language teaching songs for some Oxford University Press publications. They were jingles of a sort, so yes. Anyway, I know I've been embedded. Salem, I was your sweet spot, and I'll go out with--

Yum, yum, yum, yum,

yum, yum, yum, yum

Yum, yum, yum, yum, yum.

Steve Karmen: That's right.

Alison Stewart: [laughs] Thank you, Eileen.

Steve Karmen: I'll tell you an out-of-school story. I had been offered through my career to write for cat food. Don't hold it against me, but I don't like cats. We've had dogs in our house, but a cat is not friendly to me, and every time I did a demo for cat food, I never got the job. It was just I don't like cats and it showed in the writing.

Alison Stewart: I want to read a text to you, Steve. It's really interesting. This someone has texted, "I am blind, and I have fond memories of the era of the jingle. Today, there's usually no dialogue or jingle that even mentions the product. There's just music that plays for a short while and you have no idea what that was all about. My sighted husband tells me that it's sometimes difficult to figure out even if you're looking at the screen."

Steve Karmen: Bravo, my super compliments to the person who wrote that. That is the truth and it's coming from the consumer. This is what people don't recognize. They see some quick line on Saturday Night Live, and they say, "Hey, that'll make a great commercial for this." They put it in and it's one laugh and you're gone. That's why, again, I defend the music part. Music is everything. It's the universal communicator. Wow, that's a wonderful, wonderful comment. Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Love that comment. All right. We're getting a bunch of texts, which means I'm going to have to sing them, which makes me-- [laughs] okay, I'm game.

Steve Karmen: Okay, go.

Alison Stewart: This one says;

[sings]

I can bring home the bacon

Fry it up in a pan

and never let you ever forget your man, Angelie.

Alison Stewart: That smelly perfume.

Steve Karmen: [sings]

And I'm a woman, W-O-M-A-N,

Do it again [vocal percussions]

Steve Karmen: Listen, Alison, don't laugh, but when I used to present, I wrote something and I would go to the editor's house where he had a moviola, they call it. They ran the film through it and you could watch it and cut the film, or whatever. I would sing along with what I had written just acapella. I would go Wrigley's Spearmint, [sings] gum, gum gum [vocal percussions] rhythm [vocal percussions], that kind of rhythm. Gum gum, gum, gum [vocal percussions]. I would make sound effects.

Alison Stewart: Love it.

Steve Karmen: One of my producers used to call me Ganga Chin. That became my nickname because we played something [vocal percussions], to make the sound of like a conga drum.

Alison Stewart: Let's take some more calls. Kevin from Morristown. Hi, Kevin.

Kevin: [sings] [foreign language] That's all I can remember.

Steve Karmen: The English lyric was, for Schaefer, put them on the map. Schaefer is the one beer to have when you're having more than one. That is a solid advertising line, and I don't know what happened to Schaefer beer, but obviously, business did not follow the strength of the commercial. We live in the era of someone becomes successful and a bigger company gobbles it up.

Alison Stewart: All right, we're going to throw the skunk on the table right now. Line nine, Lin. Okay, Lin, just do it.

Lin: Hi.

Alison Stewart: Just do it.

Lin: This is an earworm for me.

[sings]

1877 Kars4Kids

Donate your car today.

Steve Karmen: [sings] K-A-R-S, Kars4Kids. Now, here's my gripe about that. It's wonderful. Number one, it's public service. It represents a charity, so that you can't knock that part, but the production of the first spot was the last line. It's sung by a kid, donate your car today. The kid sounds like he's got to get his teeth straight. Donate your car today. Every time I hear it, I change the station.

Alison Stewart: I have to say, for doing due diligence, that there is some sort of trademark issue with another organization with Kars4Kids, so everybody--

Steve Karmen: Is that so?

Alison Stewart: Yes, so letting people know.

Steve Karmen: Forgive me. I was not aware of it.

Alison Stewart: No, we're just letting people know. Some folks wanted to know, and feel free to just say mind your own beeswax, want to know about royalties and the business model of this?

Steve Karmen: Remember when you played Nationwide before, and I told you it's been running for 300 years? Well, that was my first real getting into the big time. my music was going to represent Nationwide Insurance. The advertising agency was Ogilvy & Mather in those days, handed me a contract and I was right from the farm in the Bronx. I looked at it. He said, "Sign here,", and I signed it. I got paid, I think if I recall, $2,000 to write the Nationwide campaign, and all the lyrics that went through. I always wrote my own lyrics.

Then it started to go on and on. I did all the arranging, the musical arrangements behind all the commercials for at least 10 years, but they would not pay me a royalty. They would not allow me-- It used to be the way singers work. The composer would sing on the job. If he sang on the job, he got a union royalty, but on Nationwide, I got zilch and it's still-- People say you must be very angry and I said, "No." This campaign taught me that if you want something, you got to fight for it. Advertising composers do not get any kind of royalty whatsoever. Unless they sing on the commercial.

All of my colleagues used to get out there and be in the vocal group, and it qualified some. I knew people who made literally $1 million a year, but if they did not produce the spot, they could not hire themselves as a singer. What I did after Nationwide, I went to a friend who we worked at a major theatrical agency. His name was Peter Kelly. He's gone now, but he's the man that changed my life. He got together with a couple of agency managers and lawyers, and came up with a contract where I did not have to sing to get a royalty. We worked out a certain schedule, and I would get paid when it was played. This was earth-shaking, and I had to fight my entire career.

I got along fabulously with the creative people. When it came to the business managers and the lawyers, they hated me. I wanted my own contract and I use my own contract ever since. I promise you, Alison, I turned down some really heavyweight products, because they wanted to own the copyright and I said I wouldn't do it.

Alison Stewart: We've had so many calls. We can't get to everybody. We've gotten the Löwenbräu commercial. We got the McDonald's commercial, Texaco jingle, so many, but we can't end the segment without talking about I Love New York. What's the backstory of I Love New York?

Steve Karmen: My mother is very happy. I Love New York happened in 1977. If you have memory back that far, there was a great headline on, I think, it was either the Daily News or the New York Post that said, "Ford to New York, President Ford to New York, drop dead." The governor at that time was Hugh Carey, and he wanted to come up with an advertising campaign to make it so that New York sounded what it is. It's probably the most sought-after location and for people to come on vacation. There's Broadway, there's everything that is New York that you think about.

I was asked to write a jingle for it, and I think they paid me $2,500 to do the demo, meaning the production cost and for musicians and singers and I think I used the forty-piece orchestra and I had eight singers, big production. I made zero on it until they bought it. Then when it took off, particularly the Broadway commercials, it became iconic immediately. You cannot possibly plan for something like that. This is one of those magical things that just happened. Governor Carey proclaimed it as the state song in 1980. Alison, you don't have to stand up, but you're talking to the only living state song composer.

Alison Stewart: I'm standing up right now. They see me in the studio.

Steve Karmen: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: I salute you, sir.

Steve Karmen: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: Thank you.

Steve Karmen: I Love New York it's been great. I know you're pressed for time but what has happened with that, it is the first time that a municipal government of any kind ever advertised. The Broadway commercials, and it was a very first commercial where one guy says, "I live in Brooklyn but I love New York." It became what New York is, iconic

Alison Stewart: Thanks to everybody who called in and sang. Thanks to everybody who texted and a huge thanks to Steve Karmen. Steve, so great to talk to you.

Steve Karmen: Thank you, Alison, and thanks to your listeners too. I had a fabulous time. You got to get a thirty-hour show and then we'll start to talk about the real stuff.

[MUSIC - Steve Karmen: I Love New York]

You're planning a long vacation

or just a day or two

You're finally on vacation

You're wondering what to do

You want, some place that's different

You want, some place that's special

You can have a great vacation in New York

And you say, I love New York

(It's a kind of magic)

I love New York

(And is such great city)

I love New York

(We can all go camping)

I love New York

(Because is so exciting!)

New York is different, you know

New York is special

You can have a great vacation in New York.

 

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