[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. It is such a joy to be with you. A reminder, our March Get Lit With All Of It Book Club is happening in a little over two weeks. We are reading Anita de Monte Laughs Last by Xóchitl González. The novel tells the story of two women, a once-famous artist named Anita de Monte, who died tragically and has been mostly forgotten and Raquel, the student who decides to research Anita for her senior thesis, but the deeper Raquel digs, the more she starts to wonder if her own story is starting a mirror Anita's.

New Yorkers can download a free e-copy of the book thanks to our partners at the New York Public Library. Join us in person on Thursday, March 28th at 6:00 PM for a conversation about the novel with Xóchitl Gonzalez. Tickets are free, but you have to reserve them in advance. For more information, head to www.wnyc.org/getlit and happy reading. That's in the future. Right now, let's get this hour started with the documentary, Remembering Gene Wilder.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: We're going to kick off this hour with the musical stylings of Dr. Frankenstein and his abomination.

[MUSIC - Dr. Frankenstein: Puttin' On the Ritz]

If you're blue, and you don't know where to go to

Why don't you go where fashion sits?

Puttin' on the Ritz

Different types who wear a day coat

Pants with stripes and cutaway coat, perfect fits

Puttin' on the Ritz

Dressed up like a million-dollar trouper

Trying mighty hard to look like Gary Cooper

Super duper

Come, let's mix where Rockefellers

Walk with sticks or umbrellas in their mitts

Puttin' on the Ritz

Kousha Navidar: [laughs] If you don't recognize it, that's the iconic Puttin' On the Ritz scene from the film Young Frankenstein starring and written by Gene Wilder. It was his writing debut. He had already earned a name for himself as Leo Bloom and Mel Brook’s The Producers, and as Willy Wonka. Gene Wilder would go on to bring a realness, a real sweetness to some pretty absurd comedy roles and over his career, he'd become one of Hollywood's most beloved actors.

Wilder died in 2016 due to complications from Alzheimer's disease, but now, a new documentary called Remembering Gene Wilder brings us into his storied career behind the camera and in front of it. Let's talk about the film and about Gene Wilder's life and work with documentary filmmaker, Ron Frank. Ron, welcome to the show. Thanks for joining us.

Ron Frank: Thank you, Kousha. Great to be here.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, we want to hear from you. When you think about Gene Wilder, is there a performance of his that you remember? What are your favorite lines of his or scenes that really make you appreciate his range? Or maybe you were lucky enough to see him on stage at some point. Text us, give us a call. Here's our number, 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. So Ron, how well did you know Gene Wilder's story before you started this project and when did you decide you wanted to make him a subject?

Ron Frank: Well, my history goes back to when I was a teenager and I saw him on the big screen. The first time I saw him, he was hanging upside down in a jail cell, and that was Blazing Saddles, couldn't get over his hair. His hair was wild. I have wild hair too and it intrigued me that a guy like that could make it on the silver screen. I've always been interested in Gene and The Producers, Young Frankenstein, and Blazing Saddles, probably my favorite films of his, as well as The Frisco Kid.

The inception of this came about because of our wonderful executive producers, David Knight and Julie Nimoy, Julie being the daughter of Leonard Nimoy. I had worked with them on a film about Leonard and we decided-- it was actually David and Julie's idea to work on a film about Gene Wilder. The Wilders and the Nimoys were friends so that's how it started.

Kousha Navidar: In the beginning of the documentary, there is a story about Gene Wilder being told that him making his sick mom laugh would help save her life. I found that part very interesting. I think viewers would really appreciate knowing, how did his mother's illness shape him as a comic actor?

Ron Frank: Well, Gene was always a big fan of early television. That would be Sid Caesar, Jerry Lewis, the comedians, and in movies, Charlie Chaplin was a big idol, Laurel and Hardy. That's how he grew up. When his mother had a heart attack, the doctor informed Gene, "Don't make your mother angry. You might kill her. Try to make her laugh." Now, that's a serious burden to put on a young kid, but that's how he started. He tried to make her laugh and he quite succeeded. From there, he got into acting. He knew at an early age that he wanted to be an actor. Then that took him to New York, Broadway, and eventually to movies.

Kousha Navidar: What does the beginning of his acting career look like before he meets Mel Brooks?

Ron Frank: He was doing Broadway shows. He was in a Broadway show called Mother Courage with Anne Bancroft. That was his latest. He had done a few others before then, but more or less always as a supporting actor. In Mother Courage, which closed, he met Mel Brooks for the first time because Mel was dating Ann Bancroft. He met Mel backstage. They had a wonderful meeting.

Mel was at the time writing a wonderful script called Springtime for Hitler, which eventually became The Producers. He saw immediately when he watched Gene on stage in Mother Courage, he saw immediately that this guy is my accountant, the role that would be played with Zero Mostel, this guy is Leo Bloom and he knew it immediately. That's how they started their relationship.

Kousha Navidar: We're starting to get some calls coming in. Let's go to Joan in Manhattan. Hi Joan.

Joan: Oh, hi. I'm a fan of a movie that no one ever mentions, and I don't know if anybody saw it, but the 1970, very early film. It was called Quackser Fortune Has a Cousin in the Bronx. He plays an Irish guy who is madly in love with Margot Kidder, I think it was, an upper-class woman. Part of the plot is that she's a wealthy woman and he's madly in love with her and she's just playing with him. She doesn't take him at all seriously.

His other problem is that he makes a living in a very strange way. This takes place in the '30s, I guess, and there are lots of horses in the street. He scoops up the poop of the horses and he sells it to farmers for fertilizer. Now there are very few horses left and he's considering moving to the Bronx where he has a cousin, but he comes up with a very clever way of making a living, which I won't tell you. You should watch the movie. I don't want to spoil it, but it's a very funny, and very poignant, and very moving movie.

Kousha Navidar: Joan, thank you so much. I had not heard of that one, but Ron, I'm assuming that you have heard of that movie.

Ron Frank: I did and I watched it. It is a wonderful movie, very charming. Gene did a lot of these low-budget independent films in the early '70s. That film, The Little Prince he did was another one. He did Start the Revolution Without Me with Donald Sutherland. We went through most of it, almost all of his films, and it was tough to select. You can imagine how hard it was to select excerpts and which clips we would show.

We thought about it, but that was one that we did not choose. Several of the other independents, we didn't either. We didn't have Gene to talk to, to go into detail about what that experience was like. Quite frankly, he didn't elaborate it in his autobiography. We used his autobiography, which he recorded as an audiobook as the storyteller so Gene is heard in first person throughout the film.

Kousha Navidar: One of the movies that does come up that you mentioned too before is The Producers. We have a caller who'd like to talk about that. Paul, from Essex County. Hi Paul, welcome to the show.

Paul: Hi. How are you today?

Kousha Navidar: Wonderful. Thank you.

Paul: Yes, getting back to the original Producers of 1967, it's the scene where [unintelligible 00:09:39] takes Bloom’s security blanket and Bloom launches into this mini breakdown, "My blue blanket." I can't even mimic it, but it was a quote that I've been using since an adolescent. It carried over to my kids. They're now adults. It was a way for us to break tension- -or to maybe remind the kids about how silly some important thing might be, just repeating it in almost Bloom fashion, “My blue blankie,” and then mumbling off into gibberish. There are some close in Blazing Saddles, but I'm pretty sure we can't use those on the radio. Everything's context, but I do have to say, if I had one, it would be my blue blanket.

Kousha Navidar: Paul, thank you so much for that call. It was a pivotal movie. Ron, I see you're about to say something. Go ahead.

Ron Frank: Yes. That scene actually is what got the movie financed. Mel was pitching the movie to Sidney Glazier, who was the financier and one of the producers of the producers. Sidney said, “Read me this script.” Mel read him parts of the script. When he got to that scene, Sidney just exploded in laughter and said, “That's it, we're going to make this movie.” That's what sold it, the blue blanket.

Kousha Navidar: Paul, thank you so much again for that call. Talking about that blue blanket, I think for different generations, there are different parts of Gene Wilder's career that just last and really affect you. I know for folks that are from my generation, Willy Wonka played a big role. How did Gene Wilder put his own stamp on one of his most iconic roles, Ron?

Ron Frank: Well, Willy Wonka, it's interesting. Gene played Willy Wonka in a mysterious almost a sly way, but joyful. There was always a mystery element with Gene. We interviewed Peter Ostrum, who plays Charlie Bucket, the young boy in the movie. The movie didn't do well when it came out. It actually died in the box office. One of the main reasons why we speak about it today is because of VHS and DVD. Many generations got to know the movie because of that. It didn't do well. The reason why some say it didn't do well is because mothers thought it was too harmful to children because kids disappear in that movie. Again, this is the early '70s, mothers just didn't take their kids to that movie.

Kousha Navidar: We've got a clip from Gene Wilder's Wonka that really shows his range, how he can go from zero to screaming madness, alluding to what you're talking about with mothers being worried. Let's listen to a bit of the boat ride down the Chocolate River.

[MUSIC - The Wondrous Boat Ride]

There's no earthly way of knowing

Which direction we are going

There's no knowing where we're rowing

Or which way the river's flowing.

Is it raining, is it snowing?

Is a hurricane a-blowing?

Not a speck of light is showing

So the danger must be growing

Are the fires of hell a-blowing?

Is the grisly Reaper mowing?

Yes, the danger must be growing

For the rowers keep on rowing

And they're certainly not showing

Any signs that they are slowing

Kousha Navidar: That was pretty intense. We just, in fact, got a text from a listener saying, “I remember watching as a kid. It was so intense after he, Gene Wilder, had been so mean to Charlie and I'll never forget that moment where he put his hand over the gobstopper and says that line.” Huge range here, Ron, right? Do you think Gene was always trying to make people laugh or more?

Ron Frank: It's interesting. Our writer, Glenn Kirschbaum, found an analogy, a connection with that scene and Gene's earlier life. Gene was drafted in the army and he chose to-- well, he was positioned here in the United States, in Pennsylvania, in a psychiatric hospital. He spent time working in a psychiatric hospital. He claimed, and he told us this in his autobiography, that that was a learning experience for him. The madness that he saw influenced him and his range.

We saw and Glenn saw the connection between something like that and particularly in Willy Wonka. He has madness in almost every one of his movies. As Mel Brooks said, he could burst like a volcano. That was one of the moments that we thought would show his range and also demonstrate where it came from.

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar. I'm talking to Ron Frank, the director of Remembering Gene Wilder. Listeners, we love seeing your texts and your calls coming in. We want to know when you think about Gene Wilder, what's a quintessential performance he gave that springs to mind? You can call us or text us at 212-433-9692. Or you can hit us up on our socials. We're @AllOfItWNYC. We have a caller now, Ron, who I think might have a personal story that'd be super interesting. Robert from Bergen County. Hi, Robert.

Robert: Hi, good morning, guys. How are you?

Kousha Navidar: Good. How are you?

Robert: Good. Hey, back in 1990, I got a call and I was asked to become the personal driver assistant to Albert Walsky on a film. I was told I was going to drive around with him and we're going to pick up costumes and stuff from Saks 5th Avenue. He says to me, “Okay, now I want you to go over to the Paramount Building and I want you to meet Mr. Gene Wilder on the 30th floor, I think it was, and get his hotel key and tell him I need the three suits back.”

I head on over. This is Gene Wilder I'm going to meet, a huge fan of his. I get to the 30th floor and I get to this receptionist and she says, ''Well, they're doing a read through right now in the room.'' I said, ''Okay, how long should it be?'' I waited for almost an hour. During that hour, I heard barrels of laughter coming out of the room, female laughter, male laughter. I later find out that they take a break after an hour and one of the voices sounds very familiar to me. It's a deep throaty laugh. It's a laugh I knew I should know, but I couldn't place it.

They open the door after an hour and Christine Lahti walks out, she takes a break and then I see Leonard Nimoy walk out from the room. I'm a huge Trek fan and I guess something, I don’t know, deep down inside of me recognized the laugh. I realized I listened to him laugh for almost an hour. It was one of the most wonderful and disturbing moments of my entire life. Then I chatted with Gene Wilder and he just had everybody, I guess, rolling during the read through. Wonderful, kind, gentle man. Gave me his hotel room keys and I got his suit.

Kousha Navidar: Wow, Robert, thank you so much for calling in, for sharing that personal story. Ron, that makes me wonder, was Wilder's personality different behind the camera? It sounds like he was a joy in so many aspects.

Ron Frank: Everybody has told us off screen, he had a very calm demeanor. Gene's widow, Karen Wilder, told us that he was a guy who really listened when you talked to him. He was both wonderful on screen and off. He just focused on you and was a true friend to the people that knew him.

Kousha Navidar: We just got a tweet from a listener at Ophelia Rose who says, “I was at the gym and they have those little TVs and I didn't have headphones, but Young Frankenstein was on TV. I was on the elliptical and I literally fell off cracking up even without sound because the movie is just so good and I know it by heart.” We played a clip from that movie right at the top and Ron, it's a great time as any to talk about this movie because it's a pivotal one in Wilder's career. His behind the camera debut comes when he starts to write Young Frankenstein. Where in that script do you think we see evidence of his fingerprints and the kind of person he was?

Ron Frank: That's an interesting question, but I will say, the clip that you played was a scene, Puttin' On the Ritz, that was the only dispute that Mel, who directed the movie, Mel Brooks and Gene wrote it together with Mel, but that was the only dispute that they had. That was Gene's idea to do this. He wanted to demonstrate the monster's capabilities to a bunch of stuffy old scientists and Mel said, “No, we're sticking to the Boris Karloff original. We want to be original here, that's out of place and everything.” Mel finally relented because Gene believed in it so much and Mel conceded that it's probably the best thing in the movie.

Gene's character, I think, has certain volatility, he goes off the wall as a volcano, particularly when he says, “Give my creation life.” That's a very famous scene. Alan Alda tells us that he had this very calm demeanor when he's talking to Marty Feldman, who played Igor, about whose- -brain he put in the monster. He said, "No, I'm not going to get angry," he's very calm, but you can see him rise up to a state of anger, which brings audiences to extreme laughter every time we screen this film.

He had that range. Everybody also, the other thing on the set is everybody was trying to control their laughter. They broke up. Mel had to do so many takes because people were just laughing and ruining the takes.

Kousha Navidar: To your point about sparring with Mel Brooks, it would be pretty daring for a debut writer to spar over that scene given the stature of Mel Brooks. Why do you think it was so important for him to keep that scene in?

Ron Frank: Well, Young Frankenstein was Gene's idea. He actually wrote it while he was working on Blazing Saddles and other films and I think he was very passionate about it. He went up to Mel and said, "This is what I'm working on. What do you think?" Then he told Mel, "This is what I want. I want to write it with you and produce it with you, but I don't want you to be in it," he told Mel, because Mel, of course, was in Blazing Saddles.

I think all in all, he succeeded. The two of them just worked brilliantly together. Ben Menowitz in our movie tells us that they were a team like Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers. They were just close and fed off each other, and that's how they worked. I think, as I said, Gene was very passionate about the script. He had a certain vision about it, but gave over the directing job to Mel. They did get a nomination, or it may have even won, I can’t remember, for best screenplay at the Oscars.

Kousha Navidar: We have time for just one more caller. Let's talk to Stella in Brooklyn. Hi Stella. Welcome to the show.

Stella: Hi. My question is, Gene Welder was also married to Gilda Radner, who's also a great comic, performer. I just wondered in your research what you found out about how they influenced each other's work and the impact of that relationship on Gene.

Kousha Navidar: Thank you so much, Stella. Ron, go ahead.

Ron Frank: They fell in love on the movie Hanky Panky and Gene-- I think Gilda was at the time not very happy in her marriage. Alan [unintelligible 00:22:55] tells us this story. He knew both of them very as did his wife Robin. They fell in love and got married. They had a nice marriage for five years. There were difficulties in the marriage. It wasn't the easiest marriage in the world, I think, not just because Gilda was sick, that was challenging for both of them, but Gilda had entered the marriage with a series of problems, I guess you would call it.

She had a drinking problem and she was also bulimic, and Gene helped her out through all of it and he rose to the occasion in terms of helping Gilda through her illness. He did incidentally establish Gilda clubs to help other people that were going through cancer, ovarian cancer for women in particular.

Kousha Navidar: Stella, thank you so much for that call. Ron, as we're wrapping up, what do you hope people take away from this film?

Ron Frank: This film, these are challenging times right now. Some people have told us, is it right to show a film with a Jewish angle to it? Not particularly Jewish, but now, given all the news and everything, and we believe that it is. It's a good time to know that we can still laugh. That's what this film does. This film helps us laugh. There's some emotional moments too. It's the experience of life, if you will. We feel that it's a good time to break away and laugh at life, laugh with Gene and Mel. That's why we're quite proud of the film.

Kousha Navidar: The film is Remembering Gene Wilder. We've been talking to its director, Ron Frank. Listeners, thank you so much for sending us all of your messages. Continue to do so on social if you'd like. What's your favorite Gene Wilder moment? Our handle is @AllOfItWNYC. Ron, thank you so much.

Ron Frank: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

 

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