Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm grateful you're here. On the show tomorrow, an hour devoted to Toni Morrison in honor of the 30th anniversary of her receiving the Nobel Prize. We'll hear about the Princeton University Art Museum's exhibition that pairs Morrison's writings with work by sculptor Alison Saar. Alison Saar will join us to discuss, and we'll talk to the curator of Toni Morrison's Site of Memory, an exhibit that includes more than 100 never before seen objects from Toni Morrison's career, including things like the drafts of Song of Solomon.

In our Big Picture series, recognizing Oscar nominees who work behind the scenes, we'll speak with the Oscar-nominated duo who brought old Hollywood to life in Babylon set designer, Florencia Martin, and set decorator, Anthony Carlino. That is in the future. Right now, in the present, a new film that examines masculinity, family, and expectations. [music] Bruiser is a new film that examines expectations and family dynamics through the lens of a Black teenager spending a boring school break at his humble home after a year as a scholarship kid at a PWI fancy boarding school. It's called Bruiser.

The film follows 14-year-old Darious, whose mom, Monica, is kind and warm, but whose father, Malcolm, is no-nonsense and wound-tight. That said, he is trying to make sure Darious is set up for the best possible life. Darious and his father find themselves at odds with one another when another adult male figure enters their lives. Porter, played by our next guest, Trevante Rhodes. Porter is chill and strong, former military, living off the grid a bit, and a welcome source of advice for the kid who starts to follow Porter's lead rather than his parents.

Yes, the two adult men in the story have history. The tension between the two role models is built up until the very end, leaving Darious torn. A Variety review calls the film insightful and universal in so many ways and says, "Bruiser builds to a massive brawl that in a different kind of film would be the main attraction." The director, Miles Warren, has other priorities than sensationalizing violence between Black men in a movie that is instead preoccupied with where such aggression comes from. Bruiser premiered at the Toronto Film Festival and starting tomorrow, you can stream it on Hulu.

Actor Trevante Rhodes is nominated for an Independent Spirit Award for best-supporting performance for this film. You know his work from Netflix's Bird Box and, of course, the Academy Award-winning Moonlight. Trevante, nice to meet you.

Trevante Rhodes: How are you doing? Glad to meet you.

Alison Stewart: Also, joining us is screenwriter and director, Miles Warren. This is his debut feature film. Miles, hi.

Miles Warren: Hi, thanks for having us.

Alison Stewart: People may know the story and for folks who don't, this came from the origin story. The genesis of this was a short that's very different in-- but the DNA is the same between the short and Bruiser. When you first started to make this short, when did you make it, and what was your original goal as a filmmaker?

Miles Warren: I shot it in 2019. The feature script was actually I started writing it with my co-writer Ben Medina when we were at Wesleyan. The script had started first. Then when I graduated, I wanted to show it and show that I could distill the themes from the feature into a nice little bite-sized short film and so in 2019, we shot that, and then it played at Sundance and South by Southwest. We started getting some traction. From there, we were able to get the feature going.

Alison Stewart: Trevante, when did you come into the process?

Trevante Rhodes: About two years ago. I guess about a year before we got everything going.

Alison Stewart: Did you watch the short or did you just come straight into it?

Trevante Rhodes: I did.

Alison Stewart: Oh, you did. What did you think when you saw it?

Trevante Rhodes: I loved it. I won't say the reason why I did the piece, but I was definitely one of the beautiful additions to why.

Alison Stewart: Miles, people are thinking, how do you go from a short to a feature film? What's the journey?

Miles Warren: It's a really interesting thing because I'm one of those people that think it's almost a different medium, a short film. You have to tell a story to small bite-sized little moment that you can't do the same things. I think with a short film, it's less about endurance and a sprawl in scale and more about just getting the theme, getting the visual intention, and showing some small little human connection. With the feature, it's this long marathon of a process to film.

With a lot of moving pieces and a lot of wonderful people involved, yes, the feature was just about shaping these two figures in this young boy's life and how they shape his development. That was the most important thing for the feature as opposed to the short.

Alison Stewart: Trevante, let's talk about building your character. There's obviously a lot of history between Porter and Darious' father, Malcolm, but it's not-- the film one thing I really like about it is it shows us, it doesn't tell us. I'm really curious what the conversations do you have with Miles about that history and how you two come together to show us a little bit of that history without telling us.

Trevante Rhodes: For me, my relation to Porter is very deep because I feel exactly as Porter is in a lot of situations in a lot of ways. One of which being that need to be detached, that need to not be dominated in a lot of ways. That's just something that I really gravitated towards because that's how I live my life in every facet. Yes, dropping into that was really therapeutic. It was really easy and fun, and just hopping in the space with Miles, and really we didn't really have much dialog about what was needed because everything was really on the page.

He's such a great writer. It was really just there, and I just had a, again, just jump in the space and be a vessel.

Alison Stewart: Miles, Porter has a serious look about him. Is that in your writing? Is that part of the conversation between you and your costume designer and Trevante? Because it's a look and it telegraphs a lot.

Miles Warren: No, it's in the writing, for sure. Then there's some stuff that comes from the costume designer and tray, like the motorcycle jacket was something that we found on set. Yes, the tattoos was inspired from, I guess, a little bit from The Place Beyond the Pines, the Ryan Gosling's character with all those tattoos and the mysterious drifter who has the story written on his body. I'm working with, I think, one of the best actors working today, Trevante Rhodes. What he does so incredibly is show through his face.

This is a man with such mystery and such history. When you see Porter and when you see Trevante portray him, you see it all in the eyes, the way he looks at Darious, the way he-- all the unspoken things. To me, all the esthetic things aside, I think those little moments, those quiet moments in Darious and Porter that Trevante plays so incredibly, I think is that really makes the character.

Alison Stewart: Trevante, you're super jacked in this film.

[laughter]

To say the least. We got the leather jackets. What's the detail about Porter's look that telegraphs something about him that lets the audience know a little bit more about him?

Trevante Rhodes: I think more than anything-- I guess esthetically, it's more just his demeanor, his swagger, and the way he just moves through life, again, freely and unabashed. I think that's something that really gives you a perspective of who this person is that I really do love.

Alison Stewart: When Porter first meets Darious, Trevante-- Oh, I don't want to do a spoiler. We might have to do a spoiler. [chuckles] When he first meets him, what's going through his mind that is not said?

Trevante Rhodes: I'll say it's a flurry of emotion. It's love, it's confusion, it's a little bit of anger for his inability to be a strong enough man to have been there. Yes, I'll just leave it with those three.

Alison Stewart: All right, I'm going to do the big spoiler because it's not even that spoiler. It comes early in the film. It comes early in the film. It's part of the story is that we discover that Porter is Darious' biological father. Let's listen to a clip from Bruiser. This is a moment when Porter, who went AWOL on the family, is asking Darious' parents, Malcolm and Monica, out for dinner to apologize for his behavior in the past. He really wants to be part of this unit again. This is from Bruiser.

Porter: First, I just want to start by saying I apologize for all the stuff I put us through as kids. That was all my fault. I went up to that. You know where you're at now. We're grown men now. It's all about Darious. It's real good to see you, Monica. You too, bro.

Malcolm: Why did you come back? I mean, why come back now?

Porter: You know, man, six years in the Air Force. No time out of Vegas. Just trying to find my way. Everything just led me back here. Let me back home. See you guys and Darious, my family.

Alison Stewart: That's from Bruiser, my guests, a writer and director, Miles Warren and actor, Trevante Rhodes. Miles, when you were writing this character of Porter, does he want to be a dad or does he want family?

Miles Warren: That's a great question. I think he wants all of it. I think he wants both. What's so fascinating about him is he's someone who is, in my opinion, so genuinely looking for redemption to redeem himself, to be accepted, to be let in, which I think is a very noble thing that he's earnestly trying to do. When he gets shut out, I think that's what drives him to these other places that he goes. I think he wants to be back part of a group of people that actually care about him and take care of someone that he hasn't been there for because he's been bouncing around and living this lifestyle that's left him feeling a bit empty.

Alison Stewart: Darious is played by Jalyn Hall, who was so good and so lovable as Emmett Till in the movie Till. Here he's like on the other side of being a selling teenager and all of that comes. They're not the most fun people to be around sometimes. Mumbling profanity under his breath and disobeying parents. Yet, we, as the audience, still want something good for this boy. He's a young kid. He's a kid. What did Jalyn bring to this role?

Miles Warren: Jalyn just brings this incredible, incredible intelligence. I think emotional intelligence, acting intelligence. He's someone that understands what the movie is. It's a complex movie that I think it takes a lot of attention, for Jalyn to know who Darious is and why he's playing it was really special. Yes, that character alone is also, I think, very personal in the sense that it's a little bit of me when I was growing up and a little bit of that angstiness. Jalyn and I developed this very close relationship because of that. I don't think he's used to it, I guess, a director who's maybe only 10 years older than him.

Somebody saw me on the first day, he's like, "Oh, you're the director?" "Oh, yes." I know the language. I've been there. It's pretty raw for me. I'm not that far removed from that age. To be able to, I think, talk to him about it and speak his language in that way, I think he really appreciated. We built this rapport that really, I think, helped the performance and helped the movie.

Alison Stewart: Trevante, what was something that you got out of working with a younger actor, somebody in the beginning time of his career? As much as you work with somebody younger and you're like, "Oh, yes, that's what this is about," or, "Oh, that's an interesting way to look at it."

Trevante Rhodes: I think really, Jalyn is just really a very wise young man. It was really just-- I won't say it was like speaking with a peer, but I would just look at him sometimes and he would just have this depth of understanding that was so impressive to me. It was really more just about being impressed that that generation is, or somebody at least in that generation is that quality of person. That was what I took from that.

Alison Stewart: Is he like the folks used to say, he's an old soul?

Trevante Rhodes: He is, without a doubt.

Miles Warren: Yes, he is.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Miles Warren. He's the co-writer and director of the film Bruiser. Trevante Rhodes is one of the stars. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It. [music] This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guests this hour are writer and director, Miles Warren and actor Trevante Rhodes. We're talking about their film Bruiser, which will be available on Hulu starting tomorrow. This film is so interesting. It's a lot about masculinity, but there's a whole other conversation going on about the American dream and how to achieve success, especially as a Black American.

Miles, what did you want to explore about what parents, particularly Black parents, middle-class Black parents, and I don't mean middle class necessarily as socioeconomic, what they want for their children?

Miles Warren: Yes, and I really like that. I think the idea of Malcolm's character is this Black, excellent American dream-reaching man who owns his business and wants to control these things in his life after maybe having an upbringing that has felt a little uncontrollable. I just wanted to put that in a character and show that person as a human and someone who's trying really hard but also flawed. I don't think I was maybe trying to say anything too grand with that other than maybe not doing a movie that's rooted in maybe Black poverty or all of that those kind of movies.

Root something that is set in a middle-class area, and he sends Darious to this school that's a little above their means, a private school. I think the stakes actually become more interesting because Malcolm has something to lose. Monica, too. They have a family unit secure and they're sending classes and the stakes feel higher when Porter comes in. There's a threat to that. I really just wanted to use that in order to bring the tension and the stakes to a different level.

Alison Stewart: Trevante, what does Porter offer this young man that he either isn't getting from his parents or he doesn't know how to get from his parents?

Trevante Rhodes: Well, for one, an ear as well as understanding and maybe guidance in a way that is more attuned to who he is naturally.

Alison Stewart: Porter just sees Darious.

Trevante Rhodes: He understands him.

Alison Stewart: I'm curious now that you said that he understands him. Is part of that just that biological connection you have with somebody?

Trevante Rhodes: I think so, yes, in reference to the work, but I just understood Jalyn as a young man as well. I really love how Miles put that together. Yes. Good job, bro.

Alison Stewart: There's a line when Malcolm says to Darious that he should stay focused and take his lumps. What does that mean exactly?

Miles Warren: I think Malcolm's a man with many sayings, many phrases. I think that's one that stuck with him for a long time. I think it's just the idea of it's the classic, you're a young Black boy and just keep your head down, do what you need to do, and don't worry about anyone else, and worry about yourself. That individualist attitude that I think Malcolm is just trying to instill, which he thinks is the right way to go, which I don't necessarily agree with. I mean, I don't necessarily not agree with. I think it's a good lesson to give. It's just the way how rigid it is for Malcolm, I think, ends up becoming the problem for Darious in certain scenarios.

Alison Stewart: I want to play another clip from Bruiser, and this is where we get to get a real sense of how the energies are different in these two men of Malcolm and in Porter. Darious has left after a bad argument with his dad, Malcolm. He seeks out Porter. Porter takes him to a carnival. He doesn't exactly return him on time. That is not good. Let's take a listen to Bruiser.

Porter: I like spending time with you. I want you to know me, want you to know who I am. Obviously, I want to know everything I can about you.

Darious: I get it.

Porter: I'm cool, huh?

Darious: You're okay.

Porter: Oh, just okay?

Darious: Okay, you're pretty okay.

Malcolm: Darious, what the hell were you thinking? What is wrong with you? You know we're waiting over there? Why aren't you taking up our phone calls?

Porter: Right, my bad.

Darious: I didn't see him.

Porter: We were having fun, we're playing games and stuff.

Monica: That's not okay. Why would you think that's okay? Let's go, Darious.

Alison Stewart: Why would Porter think that's okay, Trevante?

Trevante Rhodes: That's my son, what do you mean? No, just because, man, they were spending time together and it was sometimes, you don't need to always do what you're told. Sometimes people don't know what's best for you. Maybe you know what's best for you.

Alison Stewart: He wants Darious to see that?

Trevante Rhodes: He wants Darious to see that.

Alison Stewart: Even though Miles even this is obviously an intimate family drama. There's a is a sense of a thriller in it because you know something's coming, you know there's going to be-- and you're not sure when it's going to happen. Is it going to happen in the next half hour? Is it going to happen to the very end? How did you think about the pacing of this film, and how did you think about, I don't want to say playing with, but that the audience will have a sense of anticipation?

Miles Warren: Yes, Ben Medina, my co-writer, and when we were writing, we always knew we wanted to start it off as this very-- Almost a funnel of a movie where it's very this broad kid comes back and it's open and playful and there's no sense of plot. Then Porter comes in and the movie slowly tightens and tightens and tightens until it becomes this top thriller. We were always aware of genre and ways to portray these two men trapping each other in their emotions or bring that out by using these thriller elements or even like some horror elements and ratcheting up the tension.

Some influences were The Night of the Hunter or stuff like Cape Fear, these gothic southern movies about Americana, the South, and those ideas of the enclosing boxes that these two men put themselves in. Using that to drive us towards the end of the movie.

Alison Stewart: We've talked about, Trevante, how Malcolm and Porter are so different. What's similar about them?

Trevante Rhodes: Well, aside from their love or Darious, I'll just say, I also think in a lot of ways, Malcolm, not even in a lot of ways, I also think that Malcolm is someone who also doesn't want to be dominated. That need for control of their own situation, their own life I think something that they both really have in the--

Alison Stewart: I kept thinking Miles, they're two sides of the same quarter.

Trevante Rhodes: Absolutely.

Miles Warren: To me, that's why also why I wanted to make themselves visually and visually different because I wanted to show how two very different people with incredibly different ideologies still have, but they came from the same place. They still have the same type of anger and this same type of problems that build up in the end and then obviously the ending, they almost become the same person. It's the idea of the two sides of the same coin, ultimately having to live on the same physical quarter.

Alison Stewart: Malcolm is the guy who you think he bathes in a suit, he bathes wearing a tie. He's that guy.

Miles Warren: Exactly. Porter is someone who's-

Trevante Rhodes: No clothes.

Miles Warren: -walking around shirtless in a swamp, but that's also how they've gotten through their past. They've become very specific types of people in order to change their lives, in order to find meaning, and in order to find their worth. A lot of people have to change themselves aesthetically in order to find themselves in that way.

Trevante Rhodes: Nature and nurture.

Miles Warren: Exactly.

Alison Stewart: Miles was the ending, always the ending?

Miles Warren: The ending was always the ending. That was actually one of the first things that Ben and I were talking about back in the day in 2016 when we started writing this in the dorm room, we were-- the vision of this clash between these Titans, these two men, these two Black men more specifically, which brings with it a lot of baggage and ideas. That was always what I wanted to see. I wanted a young kid on the sidelines of that, having to make a decision, and having to see that and what is he going to do, but the ending of it was one of these things that I just had to do and had to get to.

Alison Stewart: The name of the film is Bruiser. It's on Hulu as of tomorrow. I've been speaking with one of its stars, actor Trevante Rhodes, and co-writer and director, Miles Warren. Thanks for the time.

Trevante Rhodes: Thank you.

Miles Warren: Thank you so much.

 

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