[MUSIC-Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It from WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in SoHo. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. We have an exciting announcement about our Get Lit with All Of It book club event. As you know this month our author is celebrated novelist Tananarive Due. We are reading her acclaimed new novel The Reformatory, a New York Times notable book of 2023.

It tells the story of a young Black boy named Robert who is sent to an abusive reformatory for boys in Jim Crow era Florida after he kicked the son of a wealthy white man. He was defending his sister Gloria, but the move gets him sent to the Gracetown School for Boys. Once he's there, Robert realizes that he's able to see the ghosts of boys who have died at the school.

The terrifying man who runs Gracetown wants Robert to help him hunt these ghosts or else, but the ghosts do not want to go quietly. Tananarive Due will be joining us for a live in-person event at the Stavros Niarchos Foundation Library on February 28th, so mark your calendars and get your tickets now. E-copies are available to borrow, thanks to our partners at the New York Public Library. Today we're excited to announce our musical guest, banjoist and fiddler, Jake Blount.

[MUSIC-Jake Blount: Didn​’​t It Rain]

Knock at the window, knock at the door

Cryin’ brother, can't you take a couple more

Brother said, well, your wallet looks a little thin

If you can’t pay, you'd better learn to swim

Water risin' (In the mornin')

Water risin’ (At noon)

Water risin' (In the evening)

Keep a-risin' all day long

Keep a-risin' all night long

Tell me, didn't it rain, a-rain, a-rain, children

Alison Stewart: Jake Blount is a performer and scholar whose work explores the Black and indigenous roots of string band music and melds it with afro-futurist themes and even modern genres like hip-hop. He's also a celebrated fiddler and former recipient of the Steve Martin Banjo Prize. Jake Blount will join us to talk about his work and perform at February 28th event alongside author Tananarive Due.

For tickets and links to borrow the book, head to wnyc.org/get lit and also follow us on Instagram @allofitwnyc for book club discussions and information. Happy reading and I will see you on February 28th at the library. Now that's in all of our future. Let's get this hour started in the present with a new play Between Two Knees.

[music]

Alison Stewart: The history of what was put upon indigenous people from the Wounded Knee massacre in 1890, to the Wounded Knee Occupation of 1973. Well, it doesn't necessarily seem like material for comeknee, but in the hands of the intertribal sketch group, The 1491s. This traumatic story becomes a super maximalist and surreal comedic romp through American history. Between Two Knees, yes, that is a reference to both Wounded Knees as well as a saucy joke, focuses on three generations of one indigenous family.

Isaiah and Irma meet at an oppressive Catholic boarding school for native kids, and they team up to fight back, literally fighting off some nuns with nunchucks. From there, the play follows the couple and their descendants through wars and hardships, but there's plenty of humor along the way as we are guided through the story by a guy named Larry, played by our guest, Jud Gauthier. We meet ridiculous hippies who have transcended race man. George Washington, there are prophecies, loud rapping, 31 wigs, 300 props, Disney princesses, mountain wolves, a bison, a rapture, and a really big explosion.

Between Two Knees was written by The 1491s, including our guest, Bobby Wilson, who is also written for Reservation Dogs, alongside fellow 1491 member, Sterlin Harjo. It played at the prestigious McCarter Theater in Princeton, New Jersey this time last year. Right now, it's running at the new Perlman Performing Arts Center through February 24th. I'm joined now by Bobby Wilson, who by the way is going to be performing stand up tonight at PAC NYC. Hi Bobby.

Bobby Wilson: Hi, what's up.

Alison Stewart: Hi. Also, as I said, Jud Gauthier, who plays Larry, is with us as well. Hi, Jud.

Jud Gauthier: Hello.

Alison Stewart: Hello. Bobby, and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, this is the first play The 1491s have written?

Bobby Wilson: That's correct, yes. First and only.

Alison Stewart: All right. For first and only, it's big, it's got a lot going on, it's got scope, it's got scale, it's got characters, it has more than 100 costumes. Why did it make sense to go so big?

Bobby Wilson: I never thought about the word maximalist until you said it on this show today and that's really what it is. I come from a family of hoarders, so it makes sense that it's stacked wall to wall with all the junk that we could find at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival who originally commissioned this play. Go big or go home. Everything that our combi troupe of five Indians do tends to be as big as we can make it.

Alison Stewart: Jud, what was your reaction when you realized how big, how maximalist, how surreal this whole project was going to be?

Jud Gauthier: Well, I think initially I didn't have any idea it would be produced to that [unintelligible 00:05:21] degree that it is now. This is my first stage production work. It was amazing to arrive at OSF and then get into the theater space and see the stage. The level of production value that was being put into it it's amazing. My first thought was, "Just wow."

Alison Stewart: Bobby, if someone's not well versed in native history, you will learn something from this show. When you all were writing it, how much was education a part of the project and how did you gauge how much exposition to include?

Bobby Wilson: The play was commissioned through a fund called American Revolutions, and they funded several plays, I think, and I might be misquoting, but I believe since the '80s they've done several different plays over those years. One of the stipulations is that what they wanted was for playwrights to interpret American history. Being one of the few indigenous writers that they had tapped in the span of that commission, we thought it would be so much fun to come up with our own version of American history through the lens of a single-family in between massacres and uprisings.

Alison Stewart: Jud, on the stage, you walk around the stage, you address the audience, you can see people. From your observation, what is a line or a piece of history or a moment that really seems to sort of you can see a surprise in someone's face or that sense of like, "Oh, wow, I don't know this, or I should be thinking about this." Is there a moment in the show?

Jud Gauthier: Yes. I think there's a lot of those built into the show. Personally, I like to be backstage and watching the monitor and see my other co-stars out there doing their thing. Sometimes I wish I could see what the audience's reaction is to some of the stuff that happens that other people do. For me, it's always the opening monologue because I deliver it right to the audience and I can see everyone on all sides, and it's pretty subversive, the opening monologue. Just seeing the faces go from expectant to, I can pretty much gauge individually who's going to be into it and who are going to have to work really hard to get on our side with the work. That opening monologue for me is a real important point.

Alison Stewart: It just brings up an interesting thing, Bobby. That's the idea of it's funny and then there's funny, there's poignant. I'm not going to give anything away, but there's one scene which you're laughing, you're laughing and then there's this tragic reveal. It comes, boom, like a hammer. When you were writing this, how did you think about the balance between those comedic moments because you guys have the funny, and then these really hard tough moments?

Bobby Wilson: A lot of folks over the years have asked myself and my comedy troupe, what is indigenous comedy? Because that's the thing that comes up all the time. We had a lot of time to think about it and really it is that. It's born out of a lot of the tragedy and the resilience. Folks like to be like, "Oh, yes, dark humor is what it is," but it's a little bit more nuanced than that because the reality of your situation, of our situations as indigenous people creeps in.

When we talk about history, we know, and we knew while we were writing this piece that most of our audience is going to be coming in like the vast majority of Americans who we've met with very little knowledge of who indigenous people are. They predominantly think they know who we were based on what they've been taught in school, which that ain't their fault. I don't expect everybody to look out and learn everything there is to know about Indians.

Most of it is, dang, it's really messed up what happened to you people. Ah, it's such a shame what they did to you guys. A lot of times in spaces outside of the Indian community there's folks who just simply have never met a native person in their whole life, and they've been wondering, "Where are you guys at? What have you guys been up to?" This play makes fun of what we've been up to for 100 years.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Bobby Wilson and Jud Gauthier. We are talking about Between Two Knees, which runs through February 24th at PAC NYC. Jud, you're one of the only people in the show who plays a consistent character straight through.

Jud Gauthier: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Larry's our guide. What do you see as Larry's role in this piece?

Jud Gauthier: It's funny, early on I was at OSF in order for myself, is almost like a trick I played on myself to be comfortable on stage, is that I imagine the entire audience was just my nieces and nephews. I was the storytelling uncle around the fire just guiding them through. Then later on in the season, speaking with someone after a show, they used the word 'a born killer.' I was like, "Okay. Yes, I could see that." I'm really trying to channel some of the comedy legends in my mind, indigenous and otherwise.

Groucho Marx comes to mind, Charlie Hill, Gary Farmer. For me that, character, Larry, like you said, he's not only is he the storyteller, but he is also molding the story as it happens. I have much more involvement with the other actors in the second act, so it's almost like Larry is being blended into the ensemble more so. Then the further we get into the play, Larry is not necessarily losing control of the story, but like I said, blending into it. It's just really interesting work, and it's an interesting way to tell a story and to be a part of on stage.

Alison Stewart: Bobby, there's a joke early on in the play about how hard it is to cast the show. Like, "Hey, we find as many indigenous people, and that is so hard that one of the members of the cast is Korean." Is that true and something you had to write in, or is that necessarily, or was that part of the original script?

Bobby Wilson: It's always been a hope that we could make that joke work with somebody. Thankfully, James Ryan, our Korean Hemsworth comes in clutch for that one.

Alison Stewart: He gives a big John Cena energy to me.

Bobby Wilson: Yes, big time. [laughs] He's hilarious. He's fantastic. All of these characters, we pretty much knew who we wanted to cast and molded the characters around our original cast who is performing at the PAC. That joke about not having enough Indians to cast is really born from casting non-native people historically in native roles. You had, what was it, Burt Lancaster played fricking Jim Thorpe. Then you even go as far up as Twilight, where they cast a non-native person to play the lead indigenous werewolf, Jacob. I can't remember his name right now, but you know what I'm talking about. Taylor Lautner, that's his name.

Jud Gauthier: Taylor Lautner.

Bobby Wilson: Yes. That comes from that is not-- and with the tropes and the stereotypes, we like to not necessarily reinforce them, but remind people and then take them back and exploit that for our play.

Alison Stewart: What was one you knew you were going to go for? What trope?

Bobby Wilson: Oh, well, the Indian burial ground, we had to do that somehow. It's not a horror film, but every Stephen King we grew up with, everything's got this weird Indian burial ground background thing. Not spoiling it for anybody, but there is a pet cemetery in the show.

Alison Stewart: Jud, this show has so many costume changes and wig changes and set changes, and you're a bartender, a space creature, a nun, what's going on backstage? Take us back a little bit to behind-the-scenes, what you have to go through during the course of this play.

Jud Gauthier: Yes. One of the cast members, Rachel said early on, she's never acted on Saturday Night Live, but she imagines the backstage traffic patterns and timings that we have backstage are very similar to that. There are certain spots in the play where I have a minute and 10, 15 seconds to change costumes and get back out on stage and pop in Bugs Bunny style in a different entrance, things like that. Backstage is a bit madcap, and it's almost another show going on backstage compared to what's going on stage because we all like to play and have fun.

We're at work, we're working really hard, we believe in the work, and we like to have fun. The backstage we try to keep it light and be very inclusive with our crew and have them bring them in on the hijinks and the Tomfoolery. Sometimes it is just basically the alchemy that happens out on stage is very much influenced by all of the personalities and sensibilities that are helping mold it backstage. Backstage is intense for sure.

Alison Stewart: We're talking about the play Between Two Knees, which is running at PAC NYC all the way downtown through February 24th. I'm speaking with co-writer and member of The 1491s, Bobby Wilson and Jud Gauthier, who stars as Larry in the show. Bobby is doing standup tonight at 7:00 PM and 9:30 at PAC, the Good Medicine Comedy Festival. Bobby, tell us a little bit more about when The 1491s first formed, and what were the goals initially.

Bobby Wilson: The 1491s we all knew each other separately. Three of us are from Minnesota, and two are from Oklahoma, Sterlin Harjo and Ryan RedCorn. I met those guys down in Santa Fe, New Mexico in 2010. We became really good friends that night. We stayed out till 2:00 in the morning, we slept in the same bed, the three of us. We got breakfast. I got invited to one of their weddings. It was crazy. Now their kids all call me uncle years later.

They've had their long and storied histories with screenwriting Sterlin in particular in the same cohort as Taika Waititi at Sundance film a long time ago. The four of us spent a decade touring all over Indian country. Been to every single reservation on Mother Earth in that good way, so many Indians, [laughs], and told so many jokes on those stages. That's how we came together and that's what kept us together was laughing and having a good time, and being invited by Indians from everywhere to come and perform.

It's been really beautiful and it's the trajectory that has led us to creating this piece Between Two Knees. We originally really didn't want to write anything for theater. It seemed like a lot of work for the five of us to do. We had done 100 videos or something like this for over a decade, posted them all on YouTube. We had done a bunch of live sketch shows. The theater was offering some really great support with their residencies, bringing us together from across the country to have this creative shared space for weeks at a time.

We were like, "Yes, let's do it. Let's put our heads together, come up with something long form." From there, immediately, while we were in rehearsal for that Sterlin Harjo sold Reservation Dogs to FX and started writing the pilot for that. Migizi, who's our other co-writer, was getting ready to go off to Canada to cover set on this historic epic drama for Nat Geo. We were all ready to take off with this thing. From Between Two Knees, there was a huge turning point in our comedy troop, and then also in our personal and individual careers as writers and artists and folks like that.

Alison Stewart: Jud, what do you hope audiences walk away talking about or thinking about after the show?

Jud Gauthier: I hope that there's, for one, a learning that happens about like Sheila's line in the play about how comedy can help heal trauma. Like Bobby said, indigenous comedy has been referred to as dark comedy or gallows humor, but I feel like we have a big open-air lab going with that show every night. Really the influence of the audience, it makes a big difference, who's in the audience for us when we're on stage. Because we're in the three-quarter thrust, it's the audience can see each other, and there's reactions, a whole array of reactions that happen.

If we have good laughers in the audience, for one, people who are open heart, open mind, they can help us tell the story to other people in the audience who might be reticent about laughing at those tragic circumstances that we portray. Like Bobby said, I also come from a family of hoarders, myself too, and indigenous people hang on to stuff because we have to. We have that sort of, I would say it's like parental responsibility I feel that my parents were activists in the '60s and '70s. It's almost like a mantle being passed down to me for me to portray that on stage. I try to definitely take that responsibility seriously, and nothing is more serious than comedy really.

To me, anyhow. I hope the audience walks away with a little bit of a understanding about the intergenerational idea that the play is trying to put across. How this has been going on for centuries, really, The deep knowledge that the play has is in the fact that we can laugh at things, we can bring you right to the verge of tears with things, and then bring you back and have you laughing. 10 seconds later, it's almost like that laugh, healed that trauma you just experienced. I hope that in a small way, audiences experiencing that walk away with a feeling of familiarity with a little more familiarity with American history in terms of it coming from the facet of Native American understanding.

Alison Stewart: Between Two Knees is running now through February 24th at PAC NYC. I've been speaking with Jud Gauthier who stars as Larry as well as Bobby Wilson. Co-writer Bobby is doing stand-up at 7:00 PM and 9:30 at PAC, the Good Medicine Comedy Festival. Have a great show tonight.

Bobby Wilson: Thank you. [chanting]

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