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Announcer: Listener-supported, WNYC studios.

David Furst: This is All Of It. I'm David Furst. Alison Stewart will be back later this month. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. We are happy you're here. It's September, which means at least two things, kids are heading off to college and there is a new slate of TV coming out. We'll speak to a couple of friends of the show, Matt Lundquist of Tribeca Therapy, and Vulture TV critic, Kathryn VanArendonk. Plus two new children's books, one written by the daughter of a nanny and another from the actor behind film's most famous nanny, Mary Poppins, Dame Julie Andrews joins us alongside her own daughter. That's all on the way. Let's get started with a question. Where does the best pizza come from?

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David Furst: The words pizza and New York are practically synonymous. However, things can get a bit tricky when it comes to finding and debating the best slice in the city. The debate can get hot, but there is great pizza all over the city, various crusts, sauce recipes, and cheese. Not just in New York City, there are many who say that the Garden State of New Jersey is the true pizza state. Who can forget Connecticut and their New Haven-style of eats? Well, Nikita Richardson has been spending a lot of time contemplating and tasting-

Nikita Richardson: Studying.

David Furst: -studying pizza. She's an editor for the New York Times, Food section. She also writes the Times Newsletter, Where to Eat: New York City, where she travels around the five boroughs trying new dishes. Every year she writes a State of Pizza edition, the newest of which just came out a few weeks ago. For the next installment of our Small Stakes, Big Opinions series, we are talking pizza in the pizza state with Nikita who joins us now. Welcome.

Nikita Richardson: Hi. Happy to be here.

David Furst: I say small stakes, but I don't know. Pizza doesn't sound like small stakes to me.

Nikita Richardson: I think that blood may be shed over this issue.

[laughter]

David Furst: That is not small stakes. Listeners, we would like to hear from you. Now is the time to shout out your favorite slice in the city. Maybe it's an institution that has been around for years or a place that's open into the early morning hours when you're coming home from a night out, or maybe it's a newer restaurant that has opened. Call or text us, 212-433WNYC, that's 212-433-9692. You can reach us on social media @AllOfItWNYC.

Maybe you're listening in New Jersey, Connecticut, Long Island, Upstate and have a favorite pizza place, let's hear it. 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692. Nikita, I said that you write the Where to Eat: New York City newsletter for the Times. You wrote in the newsletter that pizza in New York is a lot like calculus and this one scene from Mean Girls. First, let's take a listen to the scene.

Speaker: That answer is incorrect. Now we are in a sudden death. If Ms. Heron can answer this problem correctly, we have a winner

Ms. Heron: Limits, why couldn't I remember anything about limits? Limits, that was a week Aaron got his hair cut. Oh God, he looks so cute. Okay, focus, Katie. What was on the board behind Aaron's head? If the limit never approaches anything, the limit does not exist. The limit does not exist.

Speaker: Our new state champions, the North Shore Mathletes.

David Furst: The limit does not exist. Please explain, how does New York Pizza, Calculus, and Mean Girls all fit together?

Nikita Richardson: Essentially that New York is never not interested in more pizza. The new, you'd think, well, we've probably hit peak pizza, but there we'll never achieve the peak because it is unreachable. Truly across the city, you have your old school places that have been around forever and doing just defer those types of places that have been around have been doing it for decades. Yet new producers, new people get into pizza every year and we haven't hit maximum pizza. People are still interested. They still are looking always if somebody says they have the best slice, people are curious to know what that is and why they think that's the best slice because it's a really cutthroat game out there. [laughs]

David Furst: Every year you do this State of Pizza, which means you just get to go out and eat pizza for a living, which sounds pretty awesome.

Nikita Richardson: It could be worse.

David Furst: It could be worse. This is your second year doing it. Overall, what did you notice about pizza in New York this year compared to last year? Any trends?

Nikita Richardson: I think that a lot of what we're seeing now in terms of pizza is that a lot of people got into making pizza during the pandemic. We are seeing another new generation of pizza makers who hone their craft at their houses and are now deciding to expand that out. I mentioned one of my favorite pizzas I've had this year was Chrissy's Pizza, which is eventually going to be open in the East Village in the old space that held Superiority Burger. This guy, Chris Hansell, he started making it in his Bushwick apartment and then got just insanely good at it to the point where the rapper action Bronson had to stop by for a few slices.

Now this pizza, it's only through pre-orders right now that are very long sold out, but when it officially opens, it's going to be a certain amount of pies a night, very almost exclusive, but it's not meant to be exclusive. They just have a very small-- it's three people who run the whole operation and then they're in a very small space. Then there's a whole crop of people who are making pizza at breweries. The New York Times restaurant critic, Pete Wells, wrote extensively about this and about all the exciting pizzas coming out of essentially Breville ovens or Unis, which are very fancy oven that allows you to make professional-style, quality pizza at your house. They're popping up a lot of times at breweries.

The reason that that was possible is because last year, the state made it legal for food operations to actually work inside breweries. It used to be the food truck would be outside the brewery limits, but now they can be inside. It's given birth to some huge crop of very eager, very creative makers who put all style like white halal sauce onto their pizzas and really chefy ingredients like Quince Jam, that type of stuff. It's really opened up the world to what can be on a pizza right now.

David Furst: You mentioned very eager and I think we have some very eager listeners right now. A lot of calls and texts coming through. Brothers Pizza on Staten Island gets a shout-out. Open since 1975. Cash only. Says here, best white pizza in all of New York City.

Nikita Richardson: Love white pie.

David Furst: New Jersey, getting into the game early here. Let's hear from Tina in Elmwood Park, New Jersey. Thanks for joining us on All Of It today. Do you have a place you'd like to recommend?

Tina: Yes. Lodi Pizza in Lodi, New Jersey. The best, best pizza place.

David Furst: What's your favorite?

Tina: Their sauce is delicious.

David Furst: The sauce is delicious.

Tina: I love the sausage pizza.

David Furst: The sausage pizza is the way to go there. That is Lodi Pizza?

Nikita Richardson: Lodi is not that part of the city.

Tina: Lodi, New Jersey. Yes.

Nikita Richardson: That's a 40-minute drive. We can all go there.

Tina: Now, very good, very good. The sauce is what makes them too. The sauce is very delicious.

David Furst: Okay. Well, thank you very much for that recommendation, Tina. Another New Jersey caller, Dianne, in Red Bank, New Jersey. Tell us about what you would recommend.

Dianne: Hey, I have to give a shout-out to Federici's in Freehold, New Jersey. My hometown, as well as Bruce's, and they have the best pizza, thin Crust, pepper, all of them are wonderful. Family-owned and run since the early 1900s, and they're the best I've had in 50 years.

Nikita Richardson: That's awesome.

David Furst: We heard the magic word in there, crust, right, Nikita?

Nikita Richardson: Crust, yes.

David Furst: Perhaps the most important factor of a pizza is the crust. What do you think about crust? Where do you come down on its importance to a good slice?

Nikita Richardson: There is a camp of pizza making that essentially thinks that the crust that you create is pretty much your blueprint. Whatever's going to be on there is almost whatever compared with how delicious your crust is going to be. There's people who are doing sourdough crust, using poolish, they're using the way that it's expanded corn meal, all those different ways of achieving a crust. I personally prefer-- I love a nice crispy crust with the end piece though being very tender and airy. I just like a pizza that has high structural integrity. [laughs]

David Furst: Wow, we're getting very scientific today.

Nikita Richardson: I know. Some people would say that's well-done pizza, but I don't really mind it. I don't like a floppy slice delicious. I love a fold. I was taught to fold at the tender age of six, but I really do love a crust that can hold its own. Love that. I think it's so good.

David Furst: Now, you mentioned the fold. Can you describe your fold, how you manage it?

Nikita Richardson: I try and do a one-hand fold because you can't have both hands be messy. You just have to really manipulate that, whichever hand you're holding it in, to bend it from the outside. Then you have to do a lot of management if the pizza starts to slip. You have to make sure that your bites aren't so much that you end up getting sauce all over your shirt.

David Furst: Now, you're not talking about a straight fold in half, right? You're talking about--

Nikita Richardson: It's a straight fold, but if there's a lot of cheese and it's a little loose, you're going to lose some of the insides to the floor. I think it's a lot about making sure you have a good fold in one hand and bite management.

David Furst: We don't want the floor to win.

Nikita Richardson: No.

David Furst: Okay. Let's hear from Ben in Brooklyn. Tell us about what you would recommend. Thanks for joining us today.

Ben: Hello. Is this me?

David Furst: Yes, it is you. It is Ben. Hello. Welcome to All Of It.

Ben: Hi. How's it going?

David Furst: Great.

Ben: Well, I was in Brooklyn for 25 years, but actually I can't say I'm in Brooklyn right now. I'm from Manhattan, so I've had a lot of old-school pizza in my day. There's a place that doesn't get a lot of love. I think it's called Sacco. It's on 54th and 9th Avenue.

Nikita Richardson: Nice kitchen.

Ben: It's a real old-school slice, thin crest, perfect. Everybody should go there. There's a newer place that I also like on Amsterdam and 80th in the last couple of years that opened up. It's called Made in New York. They do great slices there too as well.

David Furst: Ben, thank you so much for those recommendations. We have a lot of calls and texts still to get to. Before we get too far away, it's one thing to have a slice of pizza and it's another thing to have a drink with that slice. What is your preferred beverage to have with a slice of pizza?

Nikita Richardson: I think it depends on the environment. I think wine, a good natural wine, goes so well, something light and airy that's not going to-- because pizza naturally is a little heavier, so you want something that's a little effervescent, bubbly that is going to really compliment a pizza. We have a wine critic at the Times, Eric Asimov, and he says Etna Bianco will go really well with most pizzas. He actually loves this place out in Ridgewood Queens called Decades Pizza. That's I think less than a year old. It hasn't been around a ton, but they have great pizza, but they also have an amazing wine program.

If you want to really marry the two, they work together but also love a brewery. Beer and pizza are like peanut butter and jelly in a lot of ways. One of my favorite place is called Grimm Ales and the Artisanal Ales. They're out in East Williamsburg area of Brooklyn. They're the ones who opened up a New Haven-style pizza place called Lala's Brooklyn. They're serving beer with those cracker thing crust of pizza.

David Furst: Well, join this pizza discussion. If you want to call us, the number is 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. You can also reach us on social media @AllOfItWNYC. What makes a great slice of pizza in your eyes? Is it the crust? Is it the flavor of the sauce? Maybe a certain topping? The number, 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Tell us about Decades Pizza in Ridgewood. Speaking of beverages, you write that this is the place to go if you "are deadly serious about natural wine and Margarita pizza."

Nikita Richardson: Like I was saying with that, it's very creative standard, delicious pizza. If you don't know much about natural wine, these are wines that are advertised as being low intervention, not using sulfates, that kind of thing. Really I think that the thing that distinguishes them is how light and body they are and how well they interact with food. Decades is not the only people who do this. Ops in Bushwick has been doing that for a really long time. Leo Pizza also in Williamsburg, they've been doing that for a while. Ops and Leo are owned by the same folks. That marriage is more recent but really, really nice. I think that if you haven't tried that combination, you would certainly love it.

David Furst: We're getting a lot of calls and texts. One text coming in, "Trenton-style tomato pie is an art form in itself. Trenton, New Jersey." This listener's favorite is from Papa's from Robbinsville, New Jersey. They make a special pie with a layer of yellow mustard between the tomato sauce and the crust that gives it a certain tang. "Family-owned since the 1940s." That's Bob in Allentown, New Jersey, contributing that information. Can I shout out one Maruca's Tomato Pies in Seaside Heights, New Jersey, another great New Jersey institution?

Nikita Richardson: I think the connection we're all seeing here is that Jersey's pizza is fantastic because of the tomatoes that Jersey famously grows. That has been such a boon. New York pizza needs Jersey tomatoes. Let's not turn our noses up at it. The tomatoes that they grow in Jersey are fantastic, and so many pizza makers I've spoken to love those tomatoes. They're the only tomatoes they'll use. Chrissy's uses Jersey tomatoes and they never put their sauce in the refrigerator because they feel like it makes the tomato sauce go off.

David Furst: Well, I'm being told we have to pull ourselves away from the pizza for just a moment here on All Of It. The calls, we'll get to much more of your calls in just a moment. You're listening to All Of It here on WNYC.

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David Furst: We are talking pizza with Nikita Richardson here on All Of It on WNYC. Nikita writes the Times Newsletter, Where to Eat: New York City and editor for the New York Times Food section. We are taking your calls. Right now, let's hear from Melanie on the Upper West Side. Hello. Welcome to All Of It. Melanie, are you there?

Melanie: Yes. Hi. How are you?

David Furst: Hello. Is there a pizza you'd like to bring to the discussion today?

Melanie: Absolutely. I'm going to bring my pizza into the discussion. During the pandemic, we were running fundraisers out of our home pizza oven on our property in Upstate, New York. We decided to take our business mobile or create a business. Now we have a vintage restored horse trailer. I learned how to weld to do the fabrication. My husband does all of the dough from scratch. We use food from our garden or local farms up in the Catskills, and it's called the Pizza Box. We've had great success and we love it because it really is a community event, so it's delicious.

Nikita Richardson: How can people learn more about you?

Melanie: Well, you can go to the Pizza Box, New York, everything's spelled out. That's our website. From there all our socials are connected. Most importantly, we believe in using local farms and local agriculture. We're just proud of the whole farm-to-table aspect of our business, and we do a lot of charity work up in the Catskill as well with it. It's a side project. We still have our day job, but it's been super successful and very rewarding. The Pizza Box, New York.

Nikita Richardson: Nice. This goes right to my point. Infinite pizza.

David Furst: Infinite pizza and really doing it from scratch there. Let's hear from Max in Long Island. What would you like to talk about?

Max: Hey, how's it going? Actually, I wasn't going to mention this, but a similar story to your last caller where the pandemic really kicked the pizza obsession into high gear. We had a home pizza oven, an Ooni, and we were using it for pop-up events out of our apartment in South Slope for a while. That was fun. Then we moved Upstate and our favorite place is probably Ollie's.

Nikita Richardson: I love Ollie's. Yes, so good.

Max: That's the spot. If I had to choose, it's really hard to narrow down the best places in the city, but I guess if we had to choose, it'd be Scarr's Pizza in for a slice in Lower East Side. Then if we want Neapolitan and some natural wine, which is what you were chatting about earlier. We have to go to Ops.

[laughter]

Nikita Richardson: We are aligned.

David Furst: I saw a lot of knowing nods.

Max: [unintelligible 00:19:22]

Nikita Richardson: We are mentally aligned on pizzas.

David Furst: A lot of knowing nods from Nikita here. You're familiar with a lot of these places.

Nikita Richardson: Yes. Scarr's down in the Lower East Side is from Scarr Pimentel and they actually just moved to a bigger location. It's right across the street from their old location. That's been a, I would say, food media-beloved place for a while now. Scarr's really, and I should know Scarr's is Black, so there isn't a lot of sometimes diversity within this-- in the world of pizza. It's really cool to see what he's done and how he's really perfected the art of the pizza that he makes. Then Ops is mentioned, and Ollie is up in the Catskills region, as was just said, and it is just a really nice pizza shop. They also do good antipasti and other dishes but really, really warm environment. I spent my President's Day weekend there a few years back, and it was one of my favorite places I stopped by.

David Furst: If you'd like to join the discussion, call us 212-433-WNYC, that's 212-433-9692. Right now, let's hear from Harold in Englewood, New Jersey. No shortage of strong opinions. Harold, I think you have a strong opinion to bring us today.

Harold: Yes. Good afternoon. Two things. I haven't been there in about 40 years, but Totonno's, I know it's still there. Totonno's, Cropsey Avenue in Coney Island, the best crust pizza I've ever had, and I'm a native New Yorker. I'd like your guest to talk about water as the main ingredient in pizza because you could take the same ingredients in New Jersey, the same ingredients in New York, and just replace New Jersey water with New York water, and I believe that New York water would make a better pie than New Jersey water would.

Nikita Richardson: That's also connected to the bagel argument, right-

Harold: Yes.

Harold: Yes. [crosstalk]

Nikita Richardson: -which has been said that the reason that we have these good things is because New York City water is the best water on earth. I love New York City water. It's one of my favorite things on earth, but the water here is coming from beautiful mountains Upstate. What we have is water that is very un-messed with, actually. That is what is giving our crusts and our pizzas that cleaner taste that you're not getting all those different ingredients thrown into it. I feel like there's people who would argue about it, but I agree, because I do know our water is great, so how could it not make our pizza equally great?

David Furst: There it is, the water argument is a strong one. We have a question for you. Les in Long Island, hello. Welcome to All Of It.

Les: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. My wife needs vegan, gluten-free pizza. There is a pizza place on Long Island, Three Brothers Pizza, that we frequent, but I was curious if Nikita has any recommendations for the city or the five boroughs for gluten-free vegan pizza.

Nikita Richardson: Not coming immediately to mind, but there are definitely a lot of places that will-- There's actually a website that I've found. If you look up gluten-free NYC, and they will tell you all the restaurants in New York City that they know work with people who are gluten intolerant. I think that's a really good resource but not coming immediately to mind. I apologize.

David Furst: That's a great question, though. Thank you so much for joining our discussion today on All Of It. Let's hear another call. This is Mel, welcome to All Of It, calling from Westchester, is that right? Hello, Mel. Welcome to All Of It. Do you have a pizza recommendation for us today?

Mel: Oh, definitely. Although I'm in Westchester right now, I grew up in Queens. I used to be a devotee, I should say, of Gloria's in downtown Flushing, which closed many years ago, but Amore, which is a half a mile from Citi Field, I think it's run by the people who used to work at Gloria's, and it's fabulous. I agree with what your guest is saying in terms of the water and the dough structure. I hate extra cheese on a pizza because I think it makes it guppy and makes it more difficult to eat.

Nikita Richardson: Agreed.

Mel: I've been watching some of the videos that one guy who does One Bite Only, I think it's called [unintelligible 00:24:20] I agree with him. The structure of the pizza, does it gloop? Does it not gloop? To me, it's the structure of the crust and the taste of the sauce that does it all for me at Amore's.

Nikita Richardson: Yes, I hear that. There's always going to be preferences. I think when you're a teenager, you love a gloopy pizza, and then maybe you grow out of it a little.

David Furst: Nikita, there are all kinds of toppings that are acceptable on a pizza. What are your preferred toppings?

Nikita Richardson: I love pepperoni cups, the kind that curl up. You can get these at Paulie Gee's, and they curl up, and then oil just collects in them. I think that is so good. I did not like pepperoni growing up, but now I love pepperoni. This is apparently a very controversial opinion, one I didn't know was controversial, but I love clam pizza. I wrote last year about Andrew Bellucci Pizzeria in Astoria, Queens. Unfortunately, Mr. Bellucci passed away earlier this year, quite suddenly, but I had his clam pizza, which he would have freshly shucked clams brought in from Connecticut every day.

You had to give 48 hours' notice before you could get the pizza, but it was a beautiful, beautiful pizza. Herbs, the clams, every slice came with its own lemon wedge. I love a clam pie, which is technically a white pie with clams on it but love it. Some people will say, "Clams don't belong on pizza." I have to disagree vigorously.

David Furst: Vigorously, I like that. We have time for just a couple more calls. Let's hear from Sue in New Jersey. What would you like to talk about?

Sue: The Pizza Club in Edgewater, New Jersey, has fabulous pizza and a fabulous view of New York City with floor-to-ceiling windows facing the west side of Manhattan. You get the combination of great pizza, homemade sauce, and a view of Manhattan without the traffic.

Nikita Richardson: Love that.

David Furst: All right. Gabrielle in Brooklyn, you have a recommendation for us as well. Gabrielle, are you with us? Welcome to All Of It.

Gabrielle: Yes. Hi, how are you?

David Furst: Great. Did you have a pizza you wanted to recommend, maybe some substitutes for dairy?

Gabrielle: I do. I can't have dairy, and so I order from Pizza Emporium in Marine Park. They have really great pizzas anyway because they've got a delicious crust and really good sauce, but if I order it with pepperoni and basil, it's just really, really, really good.

Nikita Richardson: I love that combination. Actually, just hearing you speak unlocked a memory to me that if you want vegan pizza that is probably gluten-free, Screamers Pizza in Brooklyn. I'm glad I'm hearing this now.

Gabrielle: Really?

Nikita Richardson: Yes, Screamers Pizza.

Gabrielle: Awesome.

David Furst: Thank you very much for that.

Nikita Richardson: To the previous caller, I hope you heard that.

David Furst: We have another answer for that as well. Robyn in Harlem calling up with some more information on a gluten-free pizza. Welcome.

Robyn: Thank you. I want to give a big shout-out to Unregular Pizza in the East Village. It has the best pizza that I have had in many years, just for all kinds of different varieties, as well as a superb vegan gluten-free margarita pizza.

Nikita Richardson: Nice.

Robyn: I served it to friends and students, and they can't tell. I've done a blind taste test, which has real dairy and gluten, and which doesn't, and they can't tell. It's that good.

Nikita Richardson: Thank you so much, Robyn. That's an amazing recommendation.

David Furst: All right, and Simon Close, with All Of It here, also says Two Boots, his suggestion for vegan gluten-free. You know that place as well?

Nikita Richardson: Yes. Two Boots is all over, but it's been a long-time staple around the East Village. It used to be next to the Upright Citizens Brigade. Many people have eaten at Two Boots if you've been around there.

David Furst: All right, we have to take another call. So many of you calling in right now. Paul in Brooklyn, welcome to All Of It. Paul, are you there?

Paul: Yes, I'm here.

David Furst: Hey, welcome.

Paul: I'd like to thank you for taking my call. I'd like to give a shout-out to Elegante Pizza on 69th Street and 5th Avenue in Brooklyn. Naturally, their pizza is absolutely delicious. Everybody's calling in and saying that, but it's the way the pizza is made. The toppings nearly go to the edge of the pizza. They don't chip out. They put the cheese almost to the edge.

Nikita Richardson: Nice.

Paul: The pie is huge. It barely fits in the box, so each slice is a meal in itself and they make the most delicious Sicilian pie. The crust is not too thick and doughy and it's not too thin like a grandma. It's just right. We have a get-together almost every Friday where there are almost 10 people at times and everybody agrees that Elegante's pizza is the best around.

David Furst: Wow.

Paul: I'm not an owner or anything, but the fact that--

Nikita Richardson: Just a real big fan.

Paul: Yes, I'm just a big fan. The fact that their pie toppings go practically to the edge, it just makes the entire pie delicious. You have the people, "Oh, I'm not crazy about the end of the pizza." There's not much pizza left after everybody gets done with it.

[laughter]

David Furst: Paul, your fandom is on full display. Thank you so much for joining us today. I guess I could finish with one last, maybe the most controversial question, Nikita. That is, what is your thought on eating pizza, I'm afraid to even say it, with a knife and fork?

Nikita Richardson: Don't even mention it.

[laughter]

David Furst: I think I know where you're coming from.

Nikita Richardson: No.

[laughter]

Nikita Richardson: That's all I have to say about it, no. Use your hands, people.

David Furst: Use your hands, okay. Nikita Richardson, an editor for the New York Times, Food section. She also writes the Times newsletter, Where to Eat: New York City. Nikita, thank you for joining us, and thanks for the tips.

Nikita Richardson: Thank you so much for having me.

 

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