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Alison Stewart: This is All of It, on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. A new film explores the artistry of one of the most influential and enigmatic living creatives in the fine arts world today. It's titled The Melt Goes On Forever: The Life and Art of David Hammons. Hammons rose to prominence after the 1965 Watts riots, as part of a Black artist collective in LA, before moving to New York City in 1974.

In the film, we hear about the large-scale public sculptures and installations Hammons became known for, such as his 1986 piece called Higher Goals, a piece made out of five 20 to 30-foot tall telephone poles, covered in a mosaic of bottle caps, with a basketball hoop at top. Then there's The Flag, where he swapped out the red, white, and blue with Black, red, and green, to represent Black liberation.

Hammon's work, both bold and provocative, provides a critique on American society and the elitist art world that sought the artist out for his work. The record price for Hammon's work at Auction is just over $8 million for an untitled work that was sold in 2013. Pulitzer Prize-winning culture critic Wesley Morris wrote about the film for The New York Times, observing Hammon seems like the victor in his attempt to satirize not so much the transaction of art for dollars, but the covetous, oblivious, entitled nature of certain transactors.

The Melt Goes On Forever: The Life and Art of David Hammons, the filmmakers join me now to talk about the movie. Judd Tully is the producer and director of the film, as well as Harold Crooks. He's the writer and the director. Welcome to the studio.

Judd Tully: Thank you.

Harold Crooks: Thank you very much, Alison.

Alison Stewart: Judd, what was your first exposure to Hammon's work?

Judd Tully: That would've been at the Exit Art Show in Soho, and that was 1989. It was described in the film by Stuart Anthony, who was working there. Basically, you walked into this dark, huge room, sound from different boom boxes hidden behind the tops of what were grand pianos, and then this train running on a track. That was very overpowering, but for me anyway, the piece that made the biggest impression was this circular sculpture of discarded thrown-away wine pint bottles, with labels Night Train, or Thunderbird.

Since I lived on the Lower East Side and was on the Bowery at that time, that was a very common thing to see on the street. Hammons, that was his material.

Alison Stewart: Harold, when you think about Hammons as a person, what makes him an intriguing subject for a documentary?

Harold Crooks: Well, it was important for us that our film be about the art and times of David Hammons, not the life and times. This is not a biopic, this is a film about an artist who is unprecedented in American art history. There was never a David Hammons before, and there will never be again. There was something utterly unique about his career. Part of that uniqueness is a mystique that surrounds him, that has to do with a practice that is conducted through rumor, through mystery, through non-availability, and invisibility.

It was very important to us, out of respect for his astonishing practice, his influential practice, that we respected the idea that he had moved, from being the ultimate outsider to the ultimate insider, by surfing the tsunami of money that was flowing into the art market without ever being co-opted. The thing is, we never got into the private life. We weren't interested in private, in the same way that David has reportedly said that he was never interested in meeting his jazz heroes, of which he had numerous.

He was interested in their music, and our film is really devoted to David against his times and his influences, who influenced him, and who he has influenced.

Alison Stewart: One of the things I've loved and I found fascinating, and I think there could be a whole film about this is at one point, he has a gallery show, and he doesn't let them know what he's going to do until just right before. When you think about-- Why was that an important story and what does this let your viewer understand about David Hammons?

Harold Crooks: Well, basically, the context, though, of a gallery, a New York gallery, a Blue-Chip gallery, a very famous gallery that was most notable for showing the works of Mark Rothko, Yves Klein giants, Willem de Kooning. Usually, an exhibition like that, devoted to a single artist, would have a press release prepared before, a checklist. Everything. The dealers that are interviewed in the show were completely in the dark.

A lot of palpable tension develops, and that, I think, is also part of David Hammon's mystique practice, that he's able to pull this off without someone calling and say, "The show is canceled," or something to that effect. He has a built-in drama, and along with it, a beauty, because there's a huge surprise.

Alison Stewart: In that sense, also, it was interesting that on some level, these gallery owners and these dealers knew that this was the right thing to do. They understood, on some cellular level, this is going to be okay, because David Hammons-- At least something's going to be okay.

Harold Crooks: Also, they understood that it was the only way that it could happen, because-- One of the final chapters in the film is titled David's Rules, and this is the other reason that I say it's an art practice and an art career without precedent in American art history, because he's able to lay out the rules by which even the most powerful art institutions. There's a wonderful anecdote, that's very illustrative of that.

David was invited, as the story goes, or as legend goes, to participate in a number of Whitney Biennials, which is the pinnacle for American artists. He declined to participate, and then when he finally agreed to participate, it was on the condition that they not exhibit a piece of his, but a painting that he had, by Miles Davis. I think on top of that, he didn't even want Miles to be accredited on the Wall. It's a career that is utterly astonishing and important, because the film is more than about the art world.

It really is a commentary on America, in so many ways. It explains why two of our executive producers, one is Lisa Cortes, who's a cultural force in her own right. She's now rolling out a new film on Little Richard, that premiered at Sundance. She and Drake's Dream Crew Entertainment Company are also on board, as producers. For them, they believe that this is a story that should be very widely seen, and beyond the world of art world Aficionados.

Alison Stewart: We had Lisa on for the Little Richard documentary. It's such a great film, but we're here to talk about your film. The Melt Goes On Forever: The Life and Art of David Hammons. My guests are Judd Tully and Harold Crooks. They're the filmmakers. Judd, I have a clip, which I want to lead to, but I would like you to explain the title of the film, which will lead nicely into the clip.

Judd Tully: Sure. During one of the interviews, it was describing this piece that David Hammons did on the street, in 1983, at Cooper Union, downtown Manhattan, alongside a number of street peddlers selling things, dead of winter. Hammons had laid out this small prayer rug, with a lineup, in a very specific formula-- Not formula, a drawing of snowballs, different sizes, very precisely made, literally of snowballs. It was referred to as The Blizzard Ball Sail.

There was a huge blizzard at that time, in New York City. Anyway, the story goes, the melt goes on forever, is that the snowballs, the drawing, continues. It's not just when you're seeing it on the street, looking down, wondering what's going on here, you're not seeing it as it decomposes. It's a joke in part, and it's a conceptual piece. He's a conceptual artist. It's amazing that we managed to find someone who actually bought one of the snowballs.

Alison Stewart: That's the clip we have, independent curator Anna Kustera. Let's take a listen.

Anna Kustera: One day, I was walking towards St. Mark's place, and was passing Cooper Union. There were a few vendors out on the street. I saw this one vendor. What caught my eye was, he had all these snowballs arranged perfectly on this carpet. He said that it was a snowball sale. I said, "Oh, well, that's interesting." I ended up buying one, maybe for $1 or $2. He really did not engage very much with me. I really thought, "Oh, well, I'm helping a homeless man here."

I took the snowball, but there was something that really caught me about it. I did buy one. I put it in a plastic bag. I lived in Queens at that time, still with my parents, and I put it in our freezer. It stayed there for six months, didn't even think about it until my mom asked me, "Can I get rid of this?" I said, "Sure." Many, many years later, I realized who that was, that it was David Hammons.

Alison Stewart: There's so much wit behind that. Who did you know you wanted to approach for this film, Harold?

Harold Crooks: Well, I think that given that it is a film that is made without David's participation, we wanted to be sure that we had a diverse and eminent lineup of participants. Artists, curators, art historians, critics, did I already say that, et cetera, et cetera, and our ability to access that is really explained by Judd's 40 years in our journalism, in the city, in which he has developed personal and professional relationships with many of the artists, and others from David's community, including--

I would like to mention Dawoud Bay, who, for at least three decades, photographically documented David's performances and his work. This allowed us to have this really eminent lineup of participants in the film. That was our goal, and we were able to enlist all these people, of this diverse range of participants, to give voice to the meaning and significance of David's career.

Alison Stewart: Judd, what kind of questions would you like people to think about after they see the movie and they go for a coffee or a glass of wine? What would you like some of the conversations to be about?

Judd Tully: Well, most importantly, just to reflect on what David Hammons has created and brought to the world, a world that, really, you would only be lucky enough to see his work if you happen to pass it by on the street early on, or later in exhibitions, or at one of his works at an auction, and to learn about someone who's not known outside this elite art world, or in art schools. I've--

Alison Stewart: I have to dive in, because we're going to run out of time, I want to make sure people know the name of the film. The Melt Goes On Forever: The Art and Times of David Hammons, the filmmakers are Judd Tully and Harold Crooks. It's a beautiful film, you learn a lot about art and art history by watching this film. Thank you so much for sharing your movie with us.

Harold Crooks: Thank you, Alison.

Judd Tully: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It.

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