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Brigid Bergin: It's All Of It on WNYC. I'm Brigid Bergin. Now, now that we've talked about some of the best day trips to take this summer, we're going to wrap up today's show with a conversation about the role that body language and nonverbal cues play in the dating scene. Recently, a new viral flirting technique has become one of TikTok's latest obsessions. It's called the Triangle Method. The triangle method hashtag has over 50 million views on the social media video app, mostly content creators explaining why the technique is effective. The technique is simple. You start by looking at one of the person's eyes, then you quickly shift to looking at the person's mouth, followed by glancing at their other eye, forming what's called the golden triangle. Our next guest is here to offer some tips for how to send a signal to a date without even saying a word.

Maybe you're thinking about how to exude confidence in your stance or show that you're open to romance with someone new. Our guest, Julie Krafchick, is a technologist and researcher of human connection and relationships. She co-hosts the Dateable podcast. Julie, welcome back to All Of It.

Julie Krafchick: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here on this topic.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, I am so excited because listeners, we want you to be part of this conversation. Have you heard of the triangle method? What do you think about this as a flirting technique? How successful do you think the triangle method is? Are there any flirting tricks you've learned or picked up while dating? What's a technique someone else has tried maybe while on a date with you? Did it work? Why or why not? Have you ever tried to show someone you were interested using nonverbal cues but came off maybe a little awkward? What happened after? We want to hear. It's just us. Safe space. Give us a call. Shoot us a text. The number is 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can tweet at us or DM us on Instagram @allofitwnyc. Okay, Julie. Overall, it sounds like making eye contact is at the heart of the triangle method. Why do you think people have become so fascinated with this technique lately? Why is it blowing up TikTok?

Julie Krafchick: In today's world, everyone is looking for that hack, that tip, that technique, whatever they can do to fast-track to the end. I think a lot of it is just the world we live in. We live in a very on-demand society with everything. They can get an Uber, you can get food delivered to you at the touch of your fingertips, so anything that will enable. A lot of people are facing challenges with dating, so this is a solution and people love solutions.

Brigid Bergin: This pattern dubbed the golden triangle, what is the significance of the golden triangle? Where does this formula come from?

Julie Krafchick: You know what? The core of it is eye contact. This has been around forever. I remember over a decade ago having a similar type of-- It just was called something different, but it was the glance or how do you maintain eye contact for 15 seconds, which debatably might be a little too long, especially if you're across the bar or somewhere from a stranger. This is the tale as old as time, in my opinion. It's just rebranded into something that people can quickly grasp. I think the triangle method, I'm glad that people are at least being conscious of body language. The only downfall is that sometimes people can get too in their head when focused on a method like this.

Brigid Bergin: I should note that one of the keys that people talk about with this method is not lingering too long on any one of the three points, [laughs] which might be strange if you started just staring at someone's mouth. How could remaining fixated on any one point for a while communicate something else to the person that you're interested in, not quite what you're going for, perhaps?

Julie Krafchick: Eye contact is pivotal. You can notice if someone is not giving you any eye contact and it makes it feel like they're not interested in you or what you have to say. That being said, on the flip side, like you were saying, if you're focused on their eyes or their mouth for a prolonged time, it can get really awkward and people can feel like, "Oh, is there something in my teeth?" or, "Is there something wrong that's going on?" I think people are always so self-referential so when something happens, you always wonder, "Is it about me?" opposed to the other person trying to impress you.

Brigid Bergin: Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. 50 million viewers have watched this TikTok video about the triangle method. If you are one of them, call us. Tell us what you thought of it. Do you have questions? Do you have objections? Perhaps you think that this isn't the best way to go. We want to hear your stories of connections. Are there other ways that you think are better for connecting with someone? We've given you lots of suggestions today about places to go. Now we'd love to hear your stories about how you are connecting with a date, any non-verbal cues that you've tried maybe successfully, maybe not so successfully. We want to hear it all. Give us a call at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also tweet at us or DM us on Instagram @allofitwnyc. Now, Julie, let's talk about asking someone out. Let's say you're interested in someone you've just met recently, but you're not sure if the person is interested in you. Do you think it's appropriate to try the triangle method with that person or would it just be weird?

Julie Krafchick: I think at the core of it, yes, is the eye contact, but sometimes just being more direct is actually going to give you the answer you want. We're so looking for signals all the time. Signals are great because they can actually show interest, but there's also a lot of reading between the lines. While I'm a huge proponent of eye contact, being approachable, a big thing too is how are you standing towards this person. Is your body language facing them? Are your arms crossed? That's a big difference of coming off as either open or closed off, but in all doubt, just ask. That's the end of the day, the easiest part of it. We're so afraid to have these conversations that we often resort to these methods.

Brigid Bergin: Are there circumstances where you would suggest someone really avoid using this method? Are there places where the triangle method is really inappropriate?

Julie Krafchick: Probably at work if you have a work crush. [laughs] I actually read somewhere that it's supposed to be the reverse triangle for professional contacts.

Brigid Bergin: Interesting.

Julie Krafchick: Instead of looking at the mouth, you're looking at the forehead. That being said, I feel like it's a little risky, and especially if you have interest in someone. I'm not sure if the right approach at a work environment would be to give these lingering eye movements and staring at someone's mouth for a prolonged time.

Brigid Bergin: We are talking about the triangle method and other stories of dating and flirting. We've told you where to go. Now we want to talk about how to meet people. I'm speaking with Julie Krafchick from the Dateable podcast. She's a co-host. Let's go to Rachel in Manhattan. Rachel, thanks so much for calling All Of It.

Rachel: Hi there.

Brigid Bergin: What is your--

Rachel: Hi.

Brigid Bergin: Hi.

Rachel: Do I just say-- [laughs] I want to tell you guys, if you're going to be looking at somebody's lips, be about to kiss them. Otherwise, you look like a serial killer. It's crazy. It's scary. Don't do it. Just don't.

Brigid Bergin: Rachel-

Rachel: Do not be creepy.

Brigid Bergin: -had you seen or heard of the triangle method before we described the idea of someone looking at your eyes, your mouth, your eyes?

Rachel: I hadn't. I am very TikTok and baby millennial, so I'm surprised that I haven't. No, but it makes sense as somebody who's actively dating.

Brigid Bergin: [laughs] Well, we appreciate your response and your feedback. I suspect you're not the only person who has questions or concerns about this method. She said she was actively dating. Rachel, let's talk for a minute. After you've been flirting with someone, is there an appropriate time to ask someone out without being too forward? Julie, can you hear me?

Julie Krafchick: Oh, yes. Oh, sorry. I thought that question was for Rachel.

Brigid Bergin: I apologize. I think I said that. [laughs] That was my fault.

Julie Krafchick: No worries. I think it sets it up really nicely. The more of an out you can give someone, the better in case they're not interested too. Just saying, "I've really enjoyed our time together. Would you be down to get a drink on Friday night?" That is something that it's not forced. It's more consent-based. You're allowing someone to say no or even if you are unsure of their situation, just asking, "Are you dating right now? Are you looking to date?" and even prefacing and saying, "I would love to meet and hang out with you more, but if you're not interested, all good." Giving people that out is very important.

Brigid Bergin: Asking someone out can be really nerve-wracking. Is there any suggestions you have about how you can project confidence in your stance or just not show that you're nervous as you're trying to ask someone out?

Julie Krafchick: Yes, easier said than done, but just remembering that the right person is going to want to be with you. If that person says that they're not interested, we always take things so personally, but a lot of the times, it has nothing to do with us. It could be where that person is, or even if they didn't want to date you, it doesn't mean that the next person isn't going to want to, and there's someone amazing right around the corner. The best way to have confidence is ultimately to know the value that you bring. At the end of the day, we can't trick people into falling in love with us with the triangle method.

Yes, it could be an indicator and I'm all for it in the sense that at least it gets people to give eye contact and make their intentions semi-known. I think ultimately, you have to say your intentions to really make them fully known, but the alternative of just not trying which we see somebody daters do, at least this is a trying to put people out there and get them into situations where they can be open to someone either taking the advancement of their eye contact, or them being in the situation that they can take it to the next level by asking.

Brigid Bergin: We have to talk about some of these first-date ideas. This story was new to me today. I was reading about a screenshot of a conversation between a 26-year-old woman and a potential date that's been circulating all over Reddit and Twitter. In that text exchange, the woman rejects the idea of an ice cream date, meeting at an ice cream parlor, because it didn't feel intentional enough. I like ice cream. How do you feel about ice cream as a potential first date idea? Does this show intention?

Julie Krafchick: This actually made it to our Facebook community. It was posted and had very polarizing views because, like you Brigid, and I also like ice cream and I would have been super excited about an ice cream date. That's where we are today is that there are so many definitions of what dating is and what dating means. What's intentional, what's not, and everyone expects the other people to follow their rules. We talk about communication and relationships. It's core to relationships, but we never talk about communication in dating. For whatever reason, we get so many emails all the time from our podcasts of, "I'm afraid to say something. It's only been a couple of weeks," or, "We only went on a date or two, I don't want to say anything." In my opinion, the best time to have conversations opposed to making interpretations of this person's not being intentional is the beginning.

Let's say, you for whatever reason felt the ice cream date was not intentional, I think you could say something like, "Hey, I actually would love to spend a little longer on a first date to get to know you better, ice scream feels like it might be short," and then see what they say to that or whatever your qualm is about the ice cream date. Making that more of the central focal point opposed to just ice cream isn't intentional.

Brigid Bergin: Yes. For listeners who didn't follow that, that was new to me today. That date did not happen, just so you know. That date got shut down. Listeners, we want to get you in on this conversation. We are talking triangle method, a flirting technique, blowing up TikTok, but we're talking dating in general. We have a real expert here in Julie Krafchick, from the Dateable podcast who can help answer your questions. We've given you lots of ideas about places to go. Maybe you want to do a little flirting when you get there. Well, here's someone who can give you some suggestions for how to connect. I will admit, on a date trip to Coldspring, I did meet someone on Metro North train. So you can say hi to your seatmate. That's one way to meet people. I don't think there was a triangle method involved. [chuckles] Let's talk a little bit more about ideas for first dates, that really allow you to connect with someone, Julie. Any suggestions there?

Julie Krafchick: This actually goes back to body language, but there are studies that it's easier to connect when you're sitting side by side with someone than face to face. It lowers the barriers a bit. It makes it a little more comfortable. Of course, it's great making eye contact but being across the table, it almost feels like you have to maintain it the entire time which can feel awkward, where if you're side by side, of course, you turn over from time to time, it's not like you're staring tunnel vision across from you. You're having a conversation, but also it sets you up to have other indicators of interest in terms of physical touch too. It's a lot easier to give someone like a gentle tap if they say something funny, versus if you're across the table, you have to reach across the table. That'd be very awkward. I think dating is like a whole series of these small interactions that build upon each other. When you're making that big plunge, at the end, it doesn't feel like it's coming from left field.

Brigid Bergin: That I guess, would be great for movies, concerts, anything where you're engaging in an activity together that perhaps you're watching, but you're not sitting across from each other at a table in a restaurant with roses and whatever, and having to stare at each other the entire time.

Julie Krafchick: Yes. The only downside of movie and concert is that it's not really set up for conversation. That being said if you can have something that you go to a show, and then you also have a follow-up that you can actually have that time to have the conversation, then that could be something that's a good date.

Brigid Bergin: Yes. Outside of the triangle method, there are a number of nonverbal cues used to communicate your interest in someone. What are some of the common mistakes that people make in how they present themselves on a first date?

Julie Krafchick: Yes, it's that first seven seconds. There are studies from NYU of that's all it takes to make a first impression. A lot of times, especially if you're meeting on a dating app, or this is the first time you're meeting in person, those first seven seconds are so key, so you can actually see the vibe of the other person. Being friendly. In the past, it was always a hug was the universal first date meet. In today's world where touche is a little more, just openly discuss, maybe it's even saying like, "Are you good with going it for the hug," or before you're actually meeting up, say, "I can't wait to meet you and give you that hug." Something that gives a little more of that consent, so you're not coming in cold, but anything you can do to just make someone feel at ease, and that it's warm, it's approachable, that's the best way to set yourself up for success.

Brigid Bergin: It sounds like maybe, a handshake might be awkward, a hug might be better, but it's all about making sure that you're really on the same page with the person.

Julie Krafchick: Exactly, and not being closed off. I think that's the number one mistake people can make of body language, of the arms crossed, or slouched down, anything to show that you don't really want to be there, and with eye contact too. We actually had an expert on our podcast about body language. She was mentioning that when asked, people would guess it's really like 60% of the time, you should be making eye contact, but if you ask someone, the range would be anywhere from 30% to 90%, which really shows that people, it's all relative to what they think. There's not a universal number, but she did say anything under 30% feels like you're not interested, and anything over 90%, feels invasive. That should be saved for the first kiss. Going in, for that. That's when you want to dial it up a notch.

Brigid Bergin: Let's go to Toniann in Oaxaca. Thanks for listening. I know you're from New York, but thanks for listening while you are not here right now.

Toniann: Yes, hello. I was just going to add that it is possible to make a plan with somebody without exchanging contact information, which I have appreciated [inaudible 00:18:52] people who have given me a place and a time and say, "This is where I'll be at this time. Feel free to join." It gives you an out. Also, you avoid looking at someone's Instagram for like five hours before you meet them. It's more open, the option to not go, the option to go, I have appreciated that.

Brigid Bergin: Oh, that's so interesting. It's reminiscent of what we were talking about earlier this hour, being a little more unplugged, and just saying a date and a time and a place to meet and showing up. Maybe, maybe not. Let's go to Tim in Nassau County. Tim, thanks so much for calling. You have to keep it a little quick.

Tim: Sure. Thanks. I'm wondering if what is being talked about is intended to be a gentleman asking a woman out or a woman taking the lead and asking a man out because there was a comment earlier where you had said, "An ice cream date request wouldn't go down with me." Since you're female, it sounded like, "Oh, if a man asked me that," but on the other hand, I'm thinking if you wanted to go out with that man would you say, "Hey, let's go out for a drink," or is it always about a woman? Are the concepts being discussed now always about a woman responding to a man?

Brigid Bergin: Tim, thanks so much for your question and just to be totally clear, we were talking about a story on the internet about a couple discussing an ice cream date, but Julie, do you want to jump in there with do these dating rules apply to non-heterosexual relationships?

Julie: It's 2023. Anything goes at this point? It is definitely not a given that the hetero man needs to ask out a hetero woman. Absolutely all for women taking control and like you said, this is not just hetero relationships. Everyone has these insecurities when it comes to asking someone out and it's not relative to one group.

Brigid Bergin: Just in our last few seconds, Julie, if you want to show consistent interest in someone, even if you know them well, what is your recommendation there?

Julie Krafchick: Just consistent follow-up. In today's world, everyone's afraid to make those moves, but the more you can just show that you're into someone and not in a creepy way, but just being there to listen and be that person. Everyone at the end of the day wants to feel seen and heard. The more that you can engage when you're out and stay present, don't be on your phone, ask questions about them and really try to get to know them instead of just going through the motions. We see so many daters trying to go through the motions to get to the relationship, but just staying present and meeting the person for who they are.

Brigid Bergin: Julie Krafchick is the co-host of the Dateable podcast. Thank you so much for joining me.

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