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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I am really grateful you are here on today's show. New York Times reporter, Ana Ley, will discuss the subway code and the social psychology of how to behave on transit. Yes, we'll take your calls. Then a blast from the past, the Bongos frontman, Richard Barone, joins us to preview an upcoming concert at Carnegie Hall that celebrates the sounds of Greenwich Village in the 1960s.

Musician James Blunt has both a new album and a new memoir. He'll join us in the studio for a listening party. We'll also discuss some of the real-life experiences he touches on in his memoir, from fighting with United Nations forces in Kosovo to his stratospheric rise to fame with his debut album. That's the plan. Let's get this started with a film recently named a New York Times critic's pick.

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Alison Stewart: The new movie, All Dirt Roads Taste of Salt, follows the life of a Mississippi girl/woman named Mackenzie, as she comes of age in the '60s and '70s. Just by hearing the film's title, All Dirt Roads Taste of Salt, you get the sense that you're in for a lyrical sensual story. It is in part because of our guest, the film's writer and director, Raven Jackson, well, she's a poet.

The plot isn't linear and the dialogue is sparse. The sounds [unintelligible 00:01:36] are often all we hear, yet we still understand what happens to Mackenzie, known as Mack, and to her friends and family through emotionally revealing scenes, whether it's fishing with her father or bathing as a child with her mother, kissing her childhood crush, or sitting on the porch with her sister, Josie.

The story plays out over roughly a 50-year period, all while immersing us in the rural South, punctuated with wooded trails and sprawling trees and riverbanks. All Dirt Roads Taste of Salt has been labeled a critic's pick by The New York Times, and The New Yorker says the film is the best debut of the year. Barry Jenkins is a producer on the film. The movie is currently in select theaters, and with me now is writer and director, Raven Jackson. Raven, nice to meet you.

Raven Jackson: Nice to meet you as well. Thank you for having me.

Alison Stewart: There's not a lot of dialogue in these scenes, which might be tricky for actors. What were your conversations like between you and your actors about the physicality of their performance and how to convey emotion?

Raven Jackson: Yes. It was a lot about, of course, the emotionality of each scene and where these characters are in their lives and their relationships to the characters in the scenes. I would make it clear I'm not someone who I like-- I don't like to rush, that there's time to explore and to explore in these scenes in between these characters. Also, I'm someone who trusts the body's ability to communicate without words.

I made that clear when talking with the actors. It's really a full-body experience. Of course, that's what the film is asking for, and so trusting just the detail of how long is somebody holding someone, how tight. I trust that, and that's something we talked a lot about.

Alison Stewart: Yes, the film is uncluttered, is the word I came up with, which lets us see things because it is uncluttered. What can be revealed about silence and a lack of dialogue?

Raven Jackson: That's a beautiful question. I often think that, yes, it might be silent, but silence speaks. I feel a lot can be revealed. I'm someone who I love details. Even when I'm thinking about a particular scene in the film where there are two characters, it's a wordless scene and there's an embrace that happens, technically, it's silent. They're not saying anything, but in that embrace, so much is communicated.

I think whether it's an embrace, whether it's a gesture, whether it's a glance, there's so much. Also, just the natural world, the soundscape of the natural world, there's so much communicated through that. That, for me, was a doorway into specificity of place. I think silence is loud often, and I like to explore that.

Alison Stewart: As I mentioned, you're a poet. How do you think your sensibilities as a poet influenced your work as a filmmaker?

Raven Jackson: I feel my interest in exploring form, that can certainly be traced back to poetry. My trust in not needing dialogue and leaning on image and leaning on the body, I believe, can be traced back to that. I believe my trust and emotion and feeling to get at the heart of it all, that can be traced back to poetry. I think poetry really gave me a lot of trust and the explorations I'm interested in doing in film.

Alison Stewart: What's the origin of the story? When did the idea first come to you? Where were you when it came to you? What were you doing?

Raven Jackson: It was a lot of seeds that came together rather than just one. I came off of a short film called Nettles that played with structure as well. It's a chapter short film that explores different moments in the lives of different girls and women. I knew coming off of that short film that I wanted to play with form in a longer-form project, and I wanted to create an emotional arc rather than a traditional plot-driven one.

I wasn't interested in plot point A, plot point B, plot point C. I really wanted to create a fluid experience of a life, one that would wash over the audience. There's a story, but it's asking for the audience to receive it in a different way. I knew that, and so I did a pitch deck for the project. A pitch deck, for those who don't know, it's a document that filmmakers create with language and images, speaking to what the film will be when it's made. I took a lot of photographs of places in the South, of family members, and to really, again, evoke the feeling that I'm aiming to evoke with the film.

A question I asked myself a lot was, "If our lives were to flood, what are the moments that would rise to the surface, and how would they speak to each other, swim within each other, or between each other?" That question was the guiding light for me. I just really knew I was interested in creating a fluid experience of a life that is close to nature and gives the profound moments of our lives, but also the quieter moments of our lives, equal weight.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing the film, All Dirt Roads Taste of Salt. I'm speaking with its writer and director, Raven Jackson. We see Mack, Mackenzie, at different stages in her life. It's four different actors who play her at some point. The key portion of the film is played by Charlene McClure as she grows older. Is this right that this is her acting debut?

Raven Jackson: That is correct.

Alison Stewart: That's amazing. She's also a poet by trade. How did you first meet her? How did you know she was the right person to anchor your film?

Raven Jackson: Charlene is actually someone I know in my life. She's a friend. As you mentioned, she's a poet. We were in the park one day and I just saw it. I saw there was something to explore here. Practically, [unintelligible 00:08:22] for that role plays late teens or early 30s Mack, and so I needed someone whose face held a lot of years, and Charlene has that to [unintelligible 00:08:32] play that age range.

Also, I needed someone who could express a lot without needing to say words, whose face could express a lot, and she has that. Once we explored for a while, it was clear that it was her. Yes, I saw it, and I trusted that, and we explored.

Alison Stewart: One of the ways that we identify Mack through the time is through her hair, her plaits, and the ribbons on the ends specifically. One of the things I got from looking at, and we see it from the back a lot, is that someone cares for this girl because her part is perfect and her braids are straight and even and tight and the ribbons are really bright. I know she has a bit of a hair evolution. How does her hair help tell the story of her?

Raven Jackson: Myself, Pamela Shepard, who's a costume designer, and Ikeyia Powell, who is hair department head, we talked a lot about how her hair, how the ribbons, the different colors could speak to the evolution of Mack throughout the film. When you see her at these different ages, it helps to ground the audience without underlining it. When you see her at her youngest age, you still see the two braids. When she's in the bathtub, it's like two little puffs. Then at around age seven, you see her with the two braids and you see the different color ribbons.

Then you see her in late teens with the two braids. Then it evolves eventually into loose two-strand twists. Then you see her with the twists in an updo in a scene. Then eventually at her oldest, you see her with one braid. I was thinking through, again, how can these different hairstyles speak to the same character. It was always the braids. The plaits were hers. It was hers to always show who she is in this world. Whereas, for instance, her sister, Josie, is usually loose as compared to Mack.

Alison Stewart: We meet the family. We meet mother, father, grandmother, sister, through all different phases of life and death. How does the title, All Dirt Roads Taste Of Salt represent the generational story you wanted to tell?

Raven Jackson: Well, the title comes from a conversation I had with my grandmother around the practice of eating clay dirt. For me, these characters are so close to earth. Also, the title speaks to water in that for folks who do practice eating clay dirt, it's after rain when the earth smells so rich that those who eat it are usually drawn to get some. The fact that the title says All Dirt Roads Taste Of Salt and that this character, we see the scene with Mack, with her mother digging for clay dirt.

For me, the salt is a bittersweet of it all. We all feel it all in a life. For me, that's what the title holds. It's also close to nature just like these characters are.

Alison Stewart: What do the generations-- what role do they play in Mack's life? The ancestors in the generations.

Raven Jackson: The film deals a lot with what's passed from one generation to the next and the ripples of that, and so it's everywhere. Yes, it's everywhere.

Alison Stewart: There's the idea, you said, that it's bittersweet because there's this one scene where Mack's parents are dancing, and it's very '70s. They're slow jamming, and they're very much in love, and she's looking up at them. Then a little bit later on, she talks to her mom, and her mom's like, "You do not speak until spoken to," with a stern tone. The idea that those two things can exist at once for Mack. The film is a lot about how that just is life.

Raven Jackson: Right. Yes, I wasn't interested in just showing one color of life. You know what I mean? Again, a life, we feel it all, sometimes closely together. For me, that scene holds that. I really wanted to be intentional about showing multiple colors of life. Because again, I'm interested in showing a full life, not just one shade.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing the movie, All Dirt Roads Taste Of Salt, with its writer and director, Raven Jackson. It is in theaters now. Your cinematographer for this movie was Jomo Fray. Tell us a little bit about the conversations you had for developing a visual style and a visual language for this film.

Raven Jackson: Yes. Shout out to Jomo Fray. He's amazing. Before talking about lenses or anything technical, we talked a lot about emotion and the emotionality of the film and allowed the technical to spring from that. We shot on 35 millimeter. Every day before set, we would read out with each other a 12-line manifesto we wrote together. One line was to be tactile, to have details. Another was, "Remember water, remember wind." Another was, "Stay close, stay wide."

Again, these are lines that just would get us in the right place to get on set and really find the images that we're looking for. Jomo and I actually worked on my most recent short as well. It was a joy to work with him on this film too.

Alison Stewart: I like that idea of a manifesto. Where did that idea come from?

Raven Jackson: Jomo. It was his idea to do it. I'm so grateful he mentioned that because it truly, truly was a great anchor for everything.

Alison Stewart: Well, yes, because you have to make decisions constantly as a director and it's important to come back to something.

Raven Jackson: Totally. I believe films tell you how they want to be made often. With this one, it was clear that it wanted to be elemental. There are some moments where I would think, "Oh, it wants this," or, "Maybe this will be interesting." It was clear that it wanted to be unadorned. To that point, yes, that manifesto was just a great thing to always circle because it was a reminder of everything.

Alison Stewart: Well, you have fire. You have the elements. You have water. [laughs] You have earth. I can't remember what the last element is, but you definitely stuck to the elements.

Raven Jackson: Air. I got air.

Alison Stewart: Air. Oh, you got them all. There's a lot of shots from behind. What interested you and Jomo about shooting your characters from behind, given there needs to be a lot of emotion? Most people, emotion comes from the face, but what is it about shooting from behind that was useful to you creatively?

Raven Jackson: For me, with this film, it was giving room to Mack's hairstyle. That was interesting to me, and again, allowing the audience to be able to track that. Also, again, I trust the body. I know eyes are right up there for me too, but I trust other ways the body communicates. A lot of it was the details of having that rhyme of Mack's hairstyle across different ages. As a throughline throughout the film, I wanted to capture that.

Alison Stewart: Did you have in your mind before, because the way the film is, is that you can be close up of hands in one era of Mack's life to another shot of hands in another era of Mack's life? As you said, it's not linear. When we remember stuff, we don't always remember it in chronological order. Was this something that you already had planned out, storyboarded, or was this something that happened in the edit? How did you know? What was your map?

Raven Jackson: That's a great question. The map, there was a map during the scripting stage, a map during production, and then a map in the edit. For a film like this, you have to allow it to evolve at the different stages. For a production, of course, I have my script, but I knew going into the edit that the film wouldn't necessarily be one-to-one with the script. You know what I mean? It's, I have to see what we have. There were some scenes where it's like, "Ooh, we just got way more motion than the script even." You know what I mean? It's a modular script.

Again, I'm interested in creating an emotional journey. Once I'm in the edit, it's like looking at the emotions and then think, "Ooh, actually maybe this, I call it different scenes with Mack at different ages, portraits. Ooh, maybe this portrait actually wants to live a little later in the film now. Maybe this portrait that I thought wanted to live all together needs to be split up to again, build that intentional emotional arc." There was a lot of that in the edit, sitting with the footage and listening to how to make the most effective emotional journey.

Alison Stewart: Have you been able to watch people watch your movie?

Raven Jackson: I don't always sit in. I have sat in a couple of times, but I have.

Alison Stewart: What did you observe?

Raven Jackson: One of my favorite things-- I don't want to spoil anything, so I'm not going to get too specific, but I love sound design and I was very intentional with sound. There's one moment in particular that I love to see if it affects folks in the way I'm hoping it does. That one moment in particular, I love to watch because, for me, that means, oh, these folks are in it. You know what I mean? In the film.

Alison Stewart: Where did you film this?

Raven Jackson: In Mississippi.

Alison Stewart: You did film it in Mississippi. How long did you film? What was your schedule like?

Raven Jackson: We filmed for 24 days. There was a moment where for a long time, I thought we would actually shoot the film in Tennessee, which is where I'm from, but we found the church location, Rose Hill Church. I saw it through Bill Ferris's photographs. Long story short, we ended up location scouting and shooting there and building production around that church.

My mother is from Mississippi, and so it was actually a gift to be in conversation with my own lineage in the making of a film that deals so much with different generations of a family.

Alison Stewart: Barry Jenkins was a producer on the film which, of course, you know him from Moonlight and If Beale Street Could Talk and Melancholy. I can't remember the--

Raven Jackson: Medicine for Melancholy.

Alison Stewart: Thank you. It's interesting because after I saw that I was like, "Oh, okay," because I'll be honest, I was like, "This is amazing. This movie got made," because this is not a here's the beginning, middle, and end, and here's our happy protagonist. What was the process like of getting it made?

Raven Jackson: It was really-- I pitched it with Maria Altamirano, who was on the film from day one and did Nettles with me. It was so important as we came into these rooms to be unapologetic about what the film is and is aiming to be. Truly, once we owned it 100% unapologetic, we got so much interest. Of course, it's not going to be for everybody and just being okay with that. If it's not for you, that's great, maybe the next one. It's okay.

I think once I owned it, I know what the film is and I know what my non-negotiables are with it, that eventually led to us meeting amazing collaborators like Barry and his team at Pastel and Adele Romanski and Mark Ceryak, who weren't afraid of the risks but excited by the leaps the film was asking to take. I'm trying to take as well as a 24, but I think with a film like this, it's so important to just deeply 100% know what it is and I did. Being able to get that across to build support was important, but I think being unapologetic about it was one of the biggest steps in the journey.

Alison Stewart: Well, that's a huge lesson for life.

Raven Jackson: Yes.

Alison Stewart: The name of the film is All Dirt Roads Taste of Salt. It is in select theaters now. My guest has been Raven Jackson, writer and director. Will you tell our line producer what that sound is of once we finish? Because the producer and I are dying to know. [chuckles]

Raven Jackson: Will do. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Thanks, Raven.

Raven Jackson: Thank you, Alison. Great meeting you.

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