David Furst: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm David Furst in for Alison Stewart, who is on vacation. This week, many of us are mentally out of the office because March Madness is underway. It is that three-week period when 128 college basketball teams, 64 men, 64 women, vie for a national championship. I'm not going to name names, but I will say that a casual walk around the station in recent days has revealed that many of us are working while also trying to keep an eye on the games. I will admit to being on a Zoom meeting on Friday while simultaneously watching Baylor vs. Mississippi State. It was a nail-biter. It didn't end well for my bracket, I will tell you.

Anyway, one of the fascinating things about March Madness is the way it has become a cultural phenomenon, sucking in people who don't usually pay much attention to sports. Here now to talk about it and to take your calls is sports reporter Priya Desai. Priya, welcome back to WNYC.

Priya Desai: Thank you for having me.

David Furst: Before we get to the cultural impact of it all, let's talk about where things stand. It is so great that we can have you on right now so that we can talk about St. John's moving on to the Sweet Sixteen after a triumphant weekend. Oh, yes, that didn't happen.

Priya Desai: It didn't happen. You almost got me there. [laughs]

David Furst: Things did not end well for the St. John's University men's team on Saturday. After an incredible regular season and winning the Big East tournament, the Red Storm fell to Arkansas in the second round on Saturday. What a year for the team and second-year coach Rick Pitino.

Priya Desai: It was such a fun team to watch and it was such a sad, sad loss. Probably, they busted a lot of brackets. Did they bust yours? Rumor is you're the bracket expert in the office.

David Furst: That is a dirty lie. I got lucky last year. No, my bracket has busted in a lot of different directions, not just because of St. John's.

Priya Desai: Same. I think a lot of St. John's fans are at least excited to have this now big-time basketball program because it's been a while. It did end in heartache, but it was a really fun run to watch.

David Furst: Incredibly fun. Meanwhile, the UConn men's team champions for the last two years, they lost a heartbreaker to the Florida Gators. The UConn women are moving on.

Priya Desai: Oh, the UConn women are moving on.

David Furst: It was kind of an easy win.

Priya Desai: Absolutely. Look, I have them in my finals against South Carolina. Not only have they always been a fun team to watch, they have a really great player in Paige Bueckers, who's probably going to be the number one overall pick in the WNBA draft. It's like so much exciting times for UConn and I love to see it.

David Furst: Well, listeners, we want to hear from you as well. Are you a new convert to March Madness and college basketball tournaments? If so, why? How did you get interested? Give us a call at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. You can also text us at that number. Let us know what you're watching and what you were surprised by.

At the beginning of the tournament, we usually see some upsets and surprises. Priya, looking back on the weekend, what's the latest? What were the biggest surprises for you?

Priya Desai: I think, unfortunately, the St. John's one was the biggest surprise. There weren't a ton of Cinderella stories, which is like always my favorite part of this. The largest Cinderella story was probably this small program called SIUE, Southern Illinois University of Edwardsville. Am I from Edwardsville? I may be. Not biased.

David Furst: Oh.

Priya Desai: When I saw that they got their first bid ever in the history of the school, that was really nice to see. They got completely trounced on by Houston. Still, you made it through to the big dance like that. That's such a thrilling thing to see. I think that's why even for non-sports people, March Madness is really fun to follow because you get to see a couple of underdogs and you see real emotion. Dan Hurley was in tears in the interview room after that loss.

David Furst: UConn's coach?

Priya Desai: UConn's coach was in tears. It's so intense. It's college. I think for some people also, they get a little bit of nostalgia from your college years.

David Furst: You have that feeling at the end of the game, too, where for the seniors and for a lot of the people who are going to be moving on, it's their last game if they lose.

Priya Desai: Yes.

David Furst: There's a lot of emotion in that moment.

Priya Desai: Seeing grown men cry. You know what? Nothing wrong with that. We all have emotions.

David Furst: [laughs] If you want to join the conversation, share your emotions. 212-433-9692. What do you think? Are the favorites still the favorites? Who do you see going all the way here?

Priya Desai: For men's, actually now, I fill out three or four brackets, to be honest. Michigan and Houston. Now, Houston is a big-time basketball program that I feel doesn't get a ton of respect. I have them in my final. Michigan, big surprise that they even made the tournament, so super excited for them. Although their football team won a national championship a couple years ago, so it's like, "Ugh, stop being selfish."

David Furst: [laughs]

Priya Desai: I think a really cool thing I will mention about the women's tournament this year is that they are going to get a piece of the media rights deals for the first time in the history of women's basketball. Men's teams, once you make a deep run into the Sweet Sixteen and beyond, they get part of the money. It's called a unit. This is the first time that the women's team is getting some of that money too from the NCAA, so it's a huge win for the women's.

David Furst: We're going to take a call. If you want to join the conversation, 212-433-9692. Charlie in Sunnyside. Welcome to All Of It.

Charlie: Hey, thank you so much for taking my call. I just want to shout out to both Ole Miss basketball teams. The men and the women's both have moved on to the Sweet Sixteen. I think it's going to be a big year for both. Hopefully, we move on to the Elite Eight. Also want to reference, I think it was 1998. I was nine years old. I was watching the Valparaiso versus Ole Miss buzzer-beater that is now known as the shot. Speaking of emotions and trauma from past NCAA brackets, I still have not gotten over that. I really hope that Ole Miss goes through to at least the Final Four. I'm from Oxford, Mississippi originally. Hottie Toddy.

David Furst: [laughs] Charlie, I am right there with you on last shots. I went to Syracuse when we lost in the finals to Indiana, but we're not going to talk anymore about that. We're moving on.

Priya Desai: Also because I'm from Indiana. I went to Indiana University.

David Furst: This conversation is over.

Priya Desai: [laughs]

David Furst: Charlie, thank you so much for joining. Speaking of buzzer beaters, I thought we were going to-- I was just going to say yesterday we haven't had any of those classic buzzer beaters this year. Then we saw the end of the Maryland-Colorado State game. Holy cow, that was an absolute classic March Madness finish.

Priya Desai: Then when you watch those kind of shots, you're just so excited even if you didn't go to any of those schools. Again, that's like my favorite part of supposedly being at work, but then also having a TV on and crouched around someone's desk and watching all those games.

David Furst: Yes, right? Those moments of crouching around. Have we lost a lot of those moments as a lot of us are working-

Priya Desai: Working from home?

David Furst: -from home.

Priya Desai: I was curious. I'm old school. I love in-office. Everyone around me is probably like, "No, we don't want to be in office." I like in-office for these kind of moments. I'm wondering if, yes, are they happening as much anymore now that we're all at home? How are people watching games, whether it's just them and their Zoom meetings?

David Furst: Right. I was caught-

Priya Desai: Were you?

David Furst: -during my Zoom meeting peering over the camera, so yes. I know it feels in these moments like everyone is watching, but is college basketball more popular these days, or has the NCAA just found ways to make us think that it is? The tournament always gets this huge burst of attention, but there are fewer people that seem to be paying attention during the regular season, at least to the men's game.

Priya Desai: I would say if they're not watching during the regular season, we have a lot more watching during these tournaments for two big reasons. NIL. You're seeing a lot of these players out and about in Allstate commercials. "Oh, there's Allstate commercials." You see them everywhere. They're doing a lot more national media, especially the women's program has gotten so much attention because of these NIL deals. People from Illinois and New York know JuJu Watkins, a player from USC, because she's everywhere, now that they're allowed to do NIL. I think you're going to get a lot more independent player fans because of NIL deals.

David Furst: All right. If you want to send us a text or give us a call, 212-433-9692. We have a text. Someone writing in to say, "My father played for the Kentucky Wildcats in the late '50s, and I have never missed a tournament. Kentucky's coach made history yesterday when he took a team to the Sweet Sixteen that didn't have a single player from last year's roster."

Priya Desai: That is really tough to do as a coach. I was quite shocked. Again, not in my bracket, so a little upset about that. Look, if you want to compare it to St. John's, you had a coach Pitino brought over a player over from his Iona team. He, last season, made it, but not really far enough. This year, they all cohesively got together. Still fell apart towards the end, I think because they're still very young and they still need time to gel. To see a Kentucky team do that, I need to know their secrets. I think every boss right now wants to know, how did you make that happen?

David Furst: It's so hard to do the way the game is these days, right?

Priya Desai: Yes, absolutely.

David Furst: Year to year. We have to take a very quick break. We'll get right back to this conversation. If you want to join in, send us a text. We have a text right now. Someone saying, "If you're reminiscing, my alma mater is St. Peter's." That's from John from Fanwood. Thank you, John. If you would like to send a text or give us a call, again, the number is 212-433-9692. This is All Of It on WNYC.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Ctiysong]

David Furst: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm David Furst in for Alison Stewart. We are talking about the cultural phenomenon known as March Madness with sports writer Priya Desai. If you would like to join this conversation, give us a call. 212-433-9692. Are you following the college basketball tournaments or maybe you're waiting for all of this to be finished? Maybe you're waiting for your family members to want to do something, anything else, anything other than this on the weekends. Again, give us a call. 212-433-9692.

Priya, we have a text here. Someone saying, "I don't watch March Madness, but I participate in Lent Madness, a fun program of the Episcopal Church in which saints vie for votes against each other until one wins the golden halo each year."

Priya Desai: This sounds like a movie, maybe. That's really cute.

David Furst: That's very fun. Maybe you come up with some alternate things to do during March Madness every year, let us know what those are. 212-433-9692. Priya, they don't get much attention, but I have to quickly mention the Division III tournaments and the fact that the NYU men's and women's teams both played for national championships on Saturday. For the second year in a row, the women won. They don't get a lot of big-time TV coverage, right?

Priya Desai: No.

David Furst: They're probably not heading off for professional careers in basketball. What is it like for these college students to have a moment like this?

Priya Desai: I think it, in some ways, is more special than maybe in some ways being a DI or DII player because you don't get scholarships in DIII. You don't get a ton of media. We got really excited because it was NYU and it was for the women's two years in a row. I'm hoping some of them will come out of this maybe with an NIL deal, something small. It's about players that really love the game and really love the student-athlete part of college. I think it was a really sweet story to follow.

David Furst: That's something that we can all relate to, a moment like that. We have a text here from someone saying they are a veteran theater teacher, and a few years ago, they found the UConn women's team super inspirational.

Priya Desai: Well, as far as their back-to-back-to-back championships, I'm assuming?

David Furst: Yes.

Priya Desai: Yes, me too. [laughs]

David Furst: Amazing. Here's another text. Someone saying, "I was never interested in basketball my whole life until I went to the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and shared a year with Michael Jordan."

Priya Desai: Okay.

David Furst: "I am to this day now a complete basketball convert. As your guest alluded to, the nostalgia wrapped up in college basketball, especially how it relates to Chapel Hill," as this person says, "is extraordinary." Duke fans can just close their ears during some of those comments. Duke can't cry this year. They're having incredible seasons.

Priya Desai: Oh, Duke. Look, I'm trying to not have too much of a bias here, but I really can never. Even if I know Duke has a chance of taking it all, I will not put them that far in my bracket. I am a certified Duke hater.

David Furst: Oh, here we go. All right. Well, there we go. If you are not a Duke hater, you can call in too. 212-433-9692. Let's take one of your calls. Jeff in Brewster, New York, welcome to All Of It.

Jeff: Hi. Thank you. I just wanted to say, I think you guys are wrong about how difficult it is to take a brand-new team far in the NCAA tournament, because, with NIL, it's easier than ever. There's no restrictions on transferring anymore. For instance, in Rick Pitino's case, he was able to buy Seton Hall's best player.

Priya Desai: Right.

Jeff: He had a donor come in that gave them millions of dollars, literally millions of dollars. There's no restrictions on even how much a player can get paid. Players are going to go where the money is.

Priya Desai: No, absolutely. I think what I was alluding to is the chemistry between all the players. To be able to do that right out the gate is pretty impressive. I think that was what we were talking about. You are absolutely right. The NIL has completely changed.

David Furst: Explain what that means, the NIL.

Priya Desai: Name, image, and likeness. Look, once upon a time, and Rick Pitino knows about this, if someone connected to the university or if anyone gave a player money to go to that school, you get pinged for that. In Pitino's case, first of all, the FBI was called, which I think everyone forgets. It was only 2017. They had to vacate a couple of wins. He then got fired and the pay-for-play stink was all over him, which is just ironic now because, through a series of court cases, students are now considered employees and they can get NIL money. That has changed everything.

David Furst: Still, it's hard to put together the chemistry that is a winning team.

Priya Desai: Oh, no, absolutely. I think that it's very difficult. This is pretty rare to see. I don't know if it's that common anymore, if I could disagree with your caller.

David Furst: Where does St. John's go from here? Yes, they put together a team in a pretty quick fashion, as he was talking about. They finished the regular season ranked number six in the nation, hugely successful. Where do they go from here? How hard is it for a team to get back to that level?

Priya Desai: They also were ranked the number one defense in the country, which is why I had them going pretty far. One, you got to find some players who can shoot threes successfully. I think that really, really caught up with them. Then it was the layup after layup that they were missing in the last game I was shocked to see. Did they get nerves moving on? I don't know what happened. As for Pitino, he's not really saying much right now. After the loss, he wasn't answering questions. He was in true Pitino fashion, which is "You saw what happened. You tell me what happened." You're like, "No, Coach, I'm the journalist. I'm asking you questions." I don't think he's going to have a lot to say until the tournament is over.

David Furst: Okay. 212-433-9692, as we consider March Madness. Let's hear from Keith in Irvington, New York. Welcome.

Keith: Hi. I just wanted to call in and shout out our favorite pizza place in Sleepy Hollow, New York, called Beekman Ale House. It's actually a cozy pub with pizza so good that we will leave our jobs in Manhattan and hurry home to Westchester, which I couldn't believe I'd ever say, to get pizza. It's some of the best pizza I've ever had. They do a March Madness bracket for four pizzas. They're constantly coming up with new ideas.

David Furst: Do you have to vote-

Keith: It's amazing.

Priya Desai: -on the best pizza? Is that the way--

Priya Desai: Wait, give me an example of a pizza team.

Keith: You vote with your order.

Priya Desai: It's the order?

Keith: Well, they have a bodega cat pie. It's pepperonis, and I forget-- We actually ordered the vodka slice with chicken cutlet on it and wish we had gotten a bodega cat. They come up with a pie of the week every week. Our favorite pie was the papi chulo, which was like mascarpone cheese, red sauce, and a pesto sauce.

Priya Desai: Okay, I'm starving.

Keith: Thin crust. It's amazing.

David Furst: Keith, we will have to check back in with you when this all wraps up to see who takes first in the pizza March Madness there. Can you shout out the name of the place one more time?

Keith: Yes. It's Beekman Ale House. You can check their Instagram to see the current-

David Furst: Of course.

Priya Desai: All right, sounds good.

Keith: -voting for their bracket.

Priya Desai: My stomach's growling.

David Furst: I'm voting for the bodega cat pie for sure. If you want to join the conversation, 212-433-9692. Artemis in Queens, welcome.

Artemis: Hi. Wow, I caught the end of a pizza discourse there. I'm into it. I'm hungry.

[laughter]

David Furst: Are you watching the games?

Artemis: I am not super tuned in to basketball. Recently, I've learned about some friends of mine that are involved in an organization here called Basketdolls, which is an all-trans women basketball league.

David Furst: Wow.

Artemis: It's for all trans people, but specifically centering trans women. Doll being a kind of in-community term for trans women, if you didn't know. It is so fabulous. It's so fun. It's so competitive. It's just a really beautiful community event. In a time when there's so much tension around trans people, especially trans women in sports, it's been a really beautiful space for trans folks to just play and have fun.

David Furst: Well, thank you so much for sharing that. Priya, just as we're wrapping up here, who's going to win it all? Can you give us a definitive answer?

Priya Desai: Houston.

David Furst: Both sides here, women and men.

Priya Desai: Oh, the women's going to be tough. I think South Carolina. If they get matched up with UConn, it's going to be a really, really tough game. There could also be matched up with Notre Dame. I don't know where to go with that one, but I've had my eye on Houston all year.

David Furst: You're pulling for Houston?

Priya Desai: Yes.

David Furst: I like it. That's who you want to win it all? Do you think they're going to do it?

Priya Desai: Yes, because I need to make some money.

David Furst: [LAUGHS] Okay. Well, Priya Desai, thank you very much as we're-- Oh, Luke, one of the producers on the show here giving a last shout-out for UConn, may have a connection, may have gone to UConn. He's pulling for the women's team. We'll see how it all goes.

Priya Desai: In one of my brackets, too, I promise.

David Furst: Okay. Priya Desai, thank you so much for joining us.

Priya Desai: Thank you.