[music]

David Furst: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm David Furst in for Alison Stewart. Today, the Internet has put so much information at our fingertips. You can learn how to calculate the volume of a sphere or what the ancient Romans ate for breakfast, or you might just find out why exactly the lizard people are hell bent on poisoning the water supply. Okay, wait a minute. There are no lizard people. Unless we are careful about separating the bad information from the good while searching the web, we run the risk of stumbling into some wild rabbit holes and then re-emerging with some pretty outrageous beliefs.

A new podcast series from CNN called Persuadable explores the rise of conspiracy theories and why some people have come to believe the unbelievable. Let's dive into the psychology of conspiracy theories now with CNN senior correspondent and the host of Persuadable, Donie O'Sullivan. Donie, welcome.

Donie O'Sullivan: Hi, David. Thank you so much for having me.

David Furst: Talk about this podcast, Persuadable. You speak with experts who argue that it is not just about media literacy, it's also about identity and community, and the feeling that comes with the belief that we're one of the lucky few who are smart enough to see the truth even when the truth is completely bonkers. Can you set the scene for us here? How are we persuadable?

Donie O'Sullivan: Yes, absolutely. I've been covering conspiracy theories and false belief or superstitious belief for CNN for eight or nine years now. Obviously, we've seen many iterations of that, particularly during 2020 when it came to so much COVID denialism and vaccine skepticism, and vaccine conspiracy theories. Of course, also things like QAnon and election denialism. I'm a news reporter, so oftentimes we are jumping from one news story to the next or one conspiracy theory to the next.

What I really wanted to do with this podcast, Persuadable, was just really try and get at the human reasons that we all can believe crazy stuff. I think it's very easy to laugh at what people can believe because it sounds absurd. Really, once you get into it and you mention it there, people get a lot out of conspiracy theories. They find a lot of meaning. They find community.

David Furst: Tonie, you talk about things that people go through very real struggles and anxieties that can lead them to buy into conspiracies. You also compare some of that to your own mental health struggles. Can you talk about that? Why it's important to you to bring that into the conversation and the mission of the podcast, to talk about yourself instead of just this straight reporting?

Donie O'Sullivan: Yes. I believe that we all have irrational beliefs at times. We all have superstitions, we all believe things. Maybe not right now, but at certain times in our lives that we look back and say, "Wow, that's crazy that I believe that," or maybe you know somebody you love right now who believes something you say, "That's crazy." What really got me thinking in this way and about how I approach people who believe "crazy things" is the irrational beliefs that I can hold myself. I give the example of the JFK assassination, really the ground zero of 20th-century American conspiracy theories.

We found a group that was way beyond even the standard conspiracy theory when it came to JFK. It was a group of people who actually believed that JFK had not been assassinated, that he was in some way still alive. This group, which essentially turned into a cult with a quite charismatic leader, were showing up, were leaving their families, and were going to Dallas, going to the grassy knoll, waiting for JFK to come back. You look at that and you say, that is objectively nuts. Therefore, all the people who believe this must also be nuts.

I spent a lot of time with them, and I spent, more importantly, a lot of time with their families who had been left behind. What I found overwhelmingly is the people who were there, standing at the grassy knoll, waiting for JFK to appear. This was tied up into a wider QAnon conspiracy theory. It's a rabbit hole of its own. These were or are productive members of society. They have families, they have kids, they have jobs. Trying to understand what it was, what was the thing that made them click and go, "I'm going to engage in this."

As I spoke to these believers, I could see, we could have normal conversations, but you bring up JFK, and it's like something clicks, and you could see them, this is their thing. I have that, too, personally. Yes, I've suffered with mental health, anxiety, depression, OCD for a lot of my life. I can be perfectly rational about many things. If I'm going through an episode, sometimes that can last weeks or months, I see that switch go off in my mind too, when something triggers me. It was my way of trying to unlock the empathy and really trying to get to a place to see past the crazy beliefs and to understand why do people engage in this thinking.

David Furst: Absolutely, Tonie. The tone of your podcast, not at all a finger-pointing, "Those people are the ones that fall prey to ridiculous information." It feels much more of an inclusive, we are all at risk and need to be on guard.

Donie O'Sullivan: Yes. The funny thing about following this, frankly, again, it's fair to say these beliefs are bizarre, are crazy, or whatever way you want to describe them. From following this group that had gathered for months at a time, some of them in Dallas, they were having a great time. They had-

David Furst: There's a community.

Donie O'Sullivan: -[crosstalk] community, purpose, this idea that they understood something that the rest of the world did not. As I got to know some of them better, as I got to speak to their families more, all of them, all of the believers had gone through some tragedy or traumatic event. Whether it was early in their life or whether it was something more recent. It could be a death, a divorce, a lot of empty nesters, recent empty nesters engaging in this space. I think a lot of listeners will be saying, "Look, we've all dealt with stuff like that, but we don't believe that JFK is alive."

David Furst: Right. Oh, sorry, go ahead.

Donie O'Sullivan: No, no, but I think we just have to think about how we all process trauma and grief differently.

David Furst: We are asking you to join the conversation, by the way. If you or a loved one has been impacted by conspiracy theories, we would love to have you join this conversation. Call in to share what the experience has taught you about the relationship between beliefs, reality, and the psychology of misinformation. The number to call 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. We're speaking with Donie O'Sullivan, CNN senior correspondent. Emotions and trust versus facts. Can you talk about what convinces us to believe what we believe? I mean, some things you would think are very obvious based on things that we see and experience, right?

Donie O'Sullivan: Yes. This is, it's difficult to hear for a journalist, but from the psychologists we spoke to, it's not facts. Facts, feelings convince people more than facts do. I think you don't have to look too far in our national politics to see how it really is feelings that is motivating so much of what is happening in this country today. It is that-- I think 2020, I think we'll be studying, trying to figure out the fallout from 2020 for decades to come when it comes to false belief. Because that was a time, of course, where we were all isolated, where we were all searching for answers, and where most of us only had our screens, and social media.

It was a difficult time, difficult to accept that something that was disrupting our lives, as was COVID, was this random thing. Something that was out of control. A lot of people chose to believe that, no, this was a virus that was deliberately released into the world, that it was part of an evil plot. What we found in that also is that that is, as human beings, we can't handle randomness very well. We want to recognize patterns. It's part of our evolutionary biology. Even having this idea that there's some evil cabal or there's an evil people in the shadows that have control, as terrifying as that may be, that can be less scary than the reality, which is life and the world is messy and a lot of things happen at random, and there isn't somebody in control.

David Furst: We're talking about your CNN podcast, Persuadable, which explores the psychology of conspiracy theories. In the first episode, you hear a lot of Trump supporters telling you that your employer, CNN, is essentially untrustworthy propaganda, but then they actually open up to you. Can you talk about those conversations?

Donie O'Sullivan: Yes. I find that a lot, really. Of course, certain segment of the electorate, from listening to the president, are not fans of mainstream media, especially some particular outlets. What I've had the privilege of doing in my job over the last few years is just having long conversations with people and getting to, frankly, know a lot of people and knowing people who believe in QAnon and who believe that the 2020 election was stolen, but also trying to-- If I walk into those conversations and say, you're wrong, and I'm fact-checking you, and actually, you're foolish for believing that, that's going to be the end of the conversation. That's going to be it.

It's threading this needle, really, of saying, "Okay, let's accept that you believe these false things, but let's try and understand why." Not the, "Oh, CNN is bad, Trump is good." "What is this? What are you getting out of this? What are you getting out of these beliefs?" Oftentimes, it does go back to that sense of community, meaning, purpose. Also, a lot of times, a lot of people in this country are suffering. A lot of people have really bad lives. It's a tough time. The economy is tough.

People want to be able to point to something to blame, to say, "Well, there has to be some reason. It must be the people coming over the border. It must be shadowy forces [unintelligible 00:12:55]," that sort of thing again. Now, I think some people listening to this will also say, that's all well and good to try and have empathy for folks, but a lot of people who are down these rabbit holes, a lot of these rabbit holes are lined with homophobia, racism, antisemitism. I think a lot of listeners will say, it's very difficult for me to have empathy for a person who might subscribe to a set of beliefs that frankly questions and challenges my existence.

That's totally fair. I think that's something that I've also tried to explore is that a lot of people who go down these rabbit holes get deep into them before they realize that so much of what they are hearing and starting to believe are just tropes. A lot of people go into these things not so willingly, or they don't go in as hateful people, but they can become that when they get so into this.

David Furst: I want to take a phone call if you'd like to join the conversation, 212-433-9692. Talking about the CNN podcast, Persuadable. Richard from Dobbs Ferry, welcome to All Of It.

Richard: Hi. Thank you. I think this is a really interesting subject. I had a question, though, is occasionally I'll suffer from little bouts of depression. Then when you were talking about the JFK, the people that are hoping he'll come back, it just gave me a thought. I wonder if this might be a way to ward off depression, might be to have a belief in something that might give you hope that there might be something better out there, or a reason for maybe some of your problems. I wonder if your guests could comment on that.

Donie O'Sullivan: Absolutely. I think that is such a spot-on point. Thank you for sharing that you also experience things like this, same as myself. There is that. I think there is that some people turn to religion, it's organized religion or faith of some kind. A lot of these conspiracy theories, it's essentially faith structures, and some of them are designed and mirror centuries, millennia, old religion because they see that actually as a successful infrastructure for belief and for providing comfort.

I think you're absolutely right there. One thing, as we do talk about mental health in this, I want to make very clear that you don't have to have be clinically depressed or have a diagnosed mental health issue to believe in conspiracy theories. You don't have to have that at all. I think what I'm trying to come at it from is this point that, for me, this is my way of unlocking empathy. Some folks process trauma and deal with life by externalizing their irrationality, thinking JFK's alive. For me, as somebody who suffers from depression and anxiety, I will internalize that. I will blame myself. I will think irrational things about me. That's where I try to make that connection.

David Furst: We're going to have to leave it there. I have so many more questions. Thank you so much for joining us. CNN senior correspondent and host of the Persuadable podcast, Donie O'Sullivan. Thank you for joining us.

Donie O'Sullivan: Thank you so much.