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Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC Studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. As you just heard in the NPR newscast, the fires in Los Angeles County are still not under control. This is really personal for many of us. Even if you don't have friends or family in California, you may want to know how you can help. We've linked to some places on our Instagram account, courtesy of the LA Times. Head to @allofitwnyc for some options.

I also wanted to mention some programming notes. I'm very excited about this. On tomorrow's show, Fernanda Torres will be here. She won a Golden Globe for her role in the Brazilian film I'm Still Here. She will join us along with director Walter Salles. That is in the future. Now let's get this hour started with some travel ideas.

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This year is the 20th anniversary of The New York Times travel series Places to Go. The Times has just released its latest issue of 52 places to consider visiting in 2025. They are destinations as far as Sydney, Australia, Benin City in Nigeria, and Toyama, Japan. Also, the recommendations they consider nearby places like Concord, Massachusetts, Detroit, and even museums in our very own city of New York.

Stephen Hiltner is a writer, editor, and photographer. He works on the 52 Places to Go list for The Times. Hi, Stephen.

Stephen Hiltner: Hi there. Thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: So glad you're here. We're going to talk to our listeners about where they plan to travel in 2025. First, I have to ask you about the anniversary of Places to Go, of the series. It took one year off during the height of COVID but how has your team reflected on the anniversary this time around?

Stephen Hiltner: We published our big annual list this year. We, also, the week beforehand, published a little bit of a retrospective that looked back at these last 20 years. We actually dug up all of the previous lists. We went through them one by one. We actually used AI this year to chew through all the data. We reflected on all of the ways that travel has changed over the last 20 years that are also reflected in the list. To be honest, it's pretty dramatic.

When the first list came out in 2005, there was no Google Maps, there was no Twitter. There was no such thing as travel influencers on Instagram because Instagram didn't exist. The world of travel has really changed. Our list itself has really changed. It was an interesting exercise tracking how much travel has changed over these last 20 years through the lens of this New York Times list.

Alison Stewart: What differences did you notice about the kinds of destinations people wanted to travel to?

Stephen Hiltner: One of the things we've noticed is obviously sustainability now is a much more important issue for a lot of people. We also find that travelers are interested in connecting with each other on social media groups to travel and find inspiration from like-minded travelers. Also just we use our smartphones now. Smartphones, by and large, didn't exist in 2005. The iPhone hadn't come out yet. Everything about the way we approach travel, the way we plan travel, the way we actually travel, so much of it has changed in these last 20 years.

We also note interestingly in that piece that the number of travelers internationally has almost doubled in that time period. Between 2005 and 2025, I think the number of international tourist arrivals has gone from something like 800 million to something like 1.4, 1.5 billion. It's been a huge increase. If you feel like there are places around the world that are a lot more crowded than they used to be, it is very true. Overtourism is another big issue that lots of countries and lots of cities are dealing with-

Alison Stewart: Oh, yes.

Stephen Hiltner: -and are trying to find solutions for. We take all of that stuff into account now as we pull together these lists. Overtourism, sustainability are two of the things that are front of mind for us as we're compiling this list every year now.

Alison Stewart: Ah, maps, remember those? [chuckles] It's a pretty good thing.

Stephen Hiltner: [chuckles] Exactly.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, let's get you in on this conversation. Where do you want to travel in 2025 and why? Is it someplace far away or is there somewhere close by that you've never been to? Call or text us at 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Maybe you want to travel solo. Maybe you want to go with friends or with family. We would love to hear 212-433-WNYC. 212-433-9692.

Before we dive into the list, how did your team go about selecting the destinations this year?

Stephen Hiltner: We rely on our contributors, our freelancers, our staff writers, our photographers, correspondents all over the world. This list takes us many, many months to put together. I think in about late August, early September, we send a note out to all of our contributors and we say, "Let us know where you think people should travel to in 2025." We get several hundred responses, several hundred submissions from all of these writers and photographers. Then, there's a group of us on the travel desk at The Times. We get into a big conference room, and we have many, many meetings, trying to winnow down this very large number of submissions into a tight list of 52 places.

The most important thing for us is finding a reason to be there in 2025. That might be a new museum. It might be a major exhibition. A city or a country might be celebrating a major anniversary. A place might be newly accessible because of a new train line or a new airport. We look for reasons, really to go this year in particular. Of course, we also take into account that people travel for all kinds of reasons so we want places where people can relax and disconnect, we want places where people can experience history and culture. We've got several places this year where people can enjoy adventure sports, whether it's skiing, hiking, or bicycling. We really try to keep all that in mind. It's a little like putting together a great big puzzle. We try to get every part of the world represented, and we try to give a little bit of something for everybody.

Alison Stewart: All right, let's dive in. At number one on the list is Jane Austen's England. Oh, Mr. Darcy, will I find you there? Where exactly in England will one go if they want to revel in the world of the Pride and Prejudice author?

Stephen Hiltner: I was so happy that we chose this as the number one location. This was my personal favorite. It is the 250th anniversary of Jane Austen's birth. Jane Austen, of course, being the celebrated British novelist who wrote Pride and Prejudice, Sense and Sensibility, Mansfield Park, Emma. There are several places in South West England where she was born and where she worked and wrote that are celebrating this anniversary. The Jane Austen House. There are places that are in Winchester. The Winchester College has a new statue where her final resting place is. In Bath, there is a Jane Austen Centre. There are all of these festivals, celebrations marking the anniversary of her birth.

The photograph for this location is just my favorite. It's this stunning estate called Stourhead. It is the site where one of the major scenes in a 2005 film version of Pride and Prejudice was shot. If there are any film fans out there, there are plenty of places in South West England that have been used as locations for Jane Austen film adaptations that we just love. It's such a beautiful part of the country. It is obviously historically very significant. We think of this as a place that is an expression of The New York Times values around travel journalism. It's such a textured location because of cultural, historical reasons, and it's really a wonderful place to visit this year.

Alison Stewart: Well, this makes me question your sensibility because on your list you have The White Lotus, Thailand. Obviously, that's in reference to the HBO show. How would one go about traveling to those White Lotus, Thailand?

Stephen Hiltner: The place in particular that we single out in this year is this island called Koh Samui,. I visited there maybe 15 years ago. It is the site that the new season, which is airing in February, was filmed at. It's a popular place in Thailand, it's not the most popular place. We expect, as has happened with the last two seasons, that this area is going to see a ton of attention this year based on the popularity of this show, White Lotus. Thailand has very high ambitions this year for their tourism numbers. They're trying to hit, I think, something like 40 million international visitors. I think there's a pretty big sense in the travel industry that this show is probably going to help them get closer to that number just because of its popularity. It's an exciting place to be.

Alison Stewart: My guest is Stephen Hiltner. He's writer, editor, and photographer for The New York Times Travel section. We are discussing the latest edition of The New York Times, 52 Places to Go. We should mention, it's the 20th anniversary of this series. We're also taking your calls. Let's talk to Marilyn, who's calling in from Chelsea. Hi, Marilyn, you're on the air.

Marilyn: Hi, Alison. Thanks for taking my call. I am calling with a tip to go to the south of Costa Rica for a gorgeous eco resort called Luna Lodge. It's right next to pristine national park, the Corcovado. From that lodge, you can make the most beautiful excursions to this park. There's tour guides who can spot animals from incredible distances by just seeing an ear somewhere in a tree. The food that is served at Luna Lodge is organic and mostly grown on the premises. The other guests are wonderful, committed to nature, to adventure. That will be my plug for Luna Lodge.

If I could, Alison, I would like to add one more.

Alison Stewart: Okay.

Marilyn: On Koh Samui, which your guest Stephen just mentioned, the island in Thailand. I was just there in another eco resort called Kamalaya, the home of the lotus. It's astounding. It's so beautiful, right on a small beach with the most amazing wellness treatments, the most beautiful nature, divine Thai food. That's my second plug.

Alison Stewart: I want Marilyn's life. That sounded great. This is a text we got. "I plan to travel to Spain and France this year. Main reason is to bicycle and watch professional bike riding." This is another text, "Vienna to Istanbul by train." Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Where do you want to travel in 2025 and why?

I love that you have New York museums on your list. It's a good reminder you don't need to travel too far to have an amazing time. Why did you decide to make specifically New York museums a destination?

Stephen Hiltner: 2025 is a huge year for New York museums. There are four major museum re-openings. After a five-year refurbishment, the Frick Collection is reopening in April with first four spaces and a huge suite of galleries. That is a very exciting museum reopening that a lot of people are excited about. Just 10 blocks north of that, the Metropolitan Museum of Art is reopening its Michael C. Rockefeller Wing in May. Another major museum, the New Museum is set to make a splash with its new extension which will double its exhibition space. Finally in the fall, the Studio Museum in Harlem, which has been closed since 2018, is opening a brand new enormous building. It is really a big year for New York museums.

I love you brought up the point that people can travel in their own backyard. Part of the reason that we recommend places all over the world, we have readers all over the world. A lot of the places we hope for most readers somewhere will be relatively close. You don't have to jet set all over the world to find an exciting place to be. Hopefully, the list will have a place that's relatively close to where you are.

Alison Stewart: Another American destination you mentioned is Asheville, North Carolina. It was one of the cities most devastated by Hurricane Helene. The federal government just announced this week it's awarding $200 million to the city of Asheville to aid in its recovery. Answering the question for most people have is, "Why would I visit Asheville this year seeing that so much of it was destroyed?"

Stephen Hiltner: This, honestly from our experience, was an interesting-- This was a place that we had on the list before the hurricane. In early September somebody had singled it out to us as a really exciting destination. The hurricane hit in late September. We took it off the list out of consideration actually thinking that it wasn't a place that people would want to go. Actually, what we heard from a lot of residents is now that they want visitors. Obviously, so much of the city was devastated by the flooding. Parts of the city were not devastated. There is a beautiful YMI Cultural Center that's reopening this year after a major renovation that people are very excited about.

A lot of people are trying to bring back visitors. There's a really great food scene. We single out this amazing restaurant called Good Hot Fish. Basically, we heard from the local community, they want responsible visitors to come and visit their town and enjoy what they're rebuilding and what has survived.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Deborah on Line 1. She's calling in from Highland Park. Hi, Deborah. Where are you going?

Deborah: Hi. Well, we're hoping to go to Milan, Italy in September, October this year. I have a friend that was an exchange student from Sweden who lives there now. When we were 16, we did some traveling together. I'm 54 and haven't seen her since. Hoping to do that and visit the Dolomites. If you have any tips for anything to do in northern Italy- I've never been to Italy- I would love to hear those.

Alison Stewart: Love that she mentioned it. I believe the Dolomites are on your list, right?

Stephen Hiltner: Yes. Actually, Milan is on our list as well. Pop over to newyorktimes.com and read through those two entries. You're going to find a ton of great stuff to do there. Obviously, the Dolomites are just stunningly beautiful. Milan is a very exciting place for art and design this year. There's a ton of stuff going on that you should be excited about and that you'll really love.

Alison Stewart: Our guest is Stephen Hiltner from The New York Times. We're discussing the latest 2025 edition of The New York Times, 52 Places to Go This Year. We want to know where you are traveling for 2025. 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart:

[00:15:55] Speaker A: You are listening to All Of It. on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Stephen Hiltner. He's a writer, editor, and photographer for The New York Times Travel section. We are discussing the 2025 edition of The New York Times 52 Places to Go This Year series. By the way, it's the 20th-anniversary edition of the series. We are taking your calls. Where do you want to travel in 2025 and why? How did you decide where you wanted to go? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. All right, we've hit my bucket list. I've always wanted to go to Greece, Stephen, where are you suggesting I go in Greece?

Stephen Hiltner: This year I'm excited about this entry as well. So many people who go to Greece stick to this itinerary that we call Athens and the Islands. You fly into Athens, you spend a few days there and then you hop on a plane or a ferry out to one of the beautiful islands. We're recommending something different, in part because Athens is itself dealing with some overtourism issues, as are many of the small islands there. There is a brand new hiking trail, a 500-mile hiking trail that is in development right now. We expect that parts of it are going to be done this year. It is this beautiful trail that takes you through the Pindus Mountains from the Albanian border to the coast of Delphi.

We recommend visiting Delphi. It's a city that has some beautiful archaeological sites and is immensely important historically. It is also the southern terminus of this new trail that would show visitors a completely different side of Greece and hopefully help alleviate some of the overtourism in some of the places that are visited by too many people.

Alison Stewart: Let's go to Africa. Now you have Kilifi, a town on the coast of Kenya. What are the main attractions in Kilifi?

Stephen Hiltner: I love this item as well. It was recommended to us by Declan Walsh, who's our chief Africa correspondent based in Nairobi. What's really exciting is if you visited Kilifi, Kenya, you're going to get to see a town that's really in the early stages of becoming an exciting place to visit. Not long ago, most people would have sped past this sleepy little coastal town, in part because of this dance party, this party called Beneath the Baobabs. The popularity has really drawn people in.

What's also happening is during the pandemic, musicians, artists, digital nomads left Nairobi and arrived in Kilifi, and set up a really interesting community there. There's a new international school. You'll see kids running down the dusty roads as tourists amble by. You won't see any sprawling resorts, you won't expect a lot of luxury but it's a really interesting place now to see a tourism town in early stages of development.

Alison Stewart: Let's take another call. This is Heidi in Manhattan. Hi, Heidi, thanks for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Heidi: Hi, thanks for taking my call. I wanted to give a shout out for traveling to-- for very specific purposes, which, in my specific case, I have a group of friends that I follow Bruce Springsteen around the world with. Through doing that during this tour, the last year and a half, two years, I've been able to go to Ireland and the UK, to Sweden a couple of times, and some other countries where I just added on a few days to visit. It's a really great way to see a place because you've got a purpose to go. You can do touristy things, food things, all the things you want to do, but then you've got this wonderful event that is tying you there.

Also, it's a really great way to meet new people. I can't say that strongly enough. I've made some of my best friends waiting in line to get into the stadium at a concert in Sweden or in Ireland, wherever I was. I just really want to give a shout out for that.

Alison Stewart: Thanks, Heidi. We appreciate the call. Let's talk to Albert in Maplewood, New Jersey. Hi, Albert. Thanks for joining us.

Albert: My pleasure. Thank you for taking the call. Been to Italy many times. Twice in, I guess it was 2022. Once to Rome right after New Year's Day, there was nobody there. It was 50 degrees, clear blue skies. Then we went to Venice later that year. This year we went to the island of Ischia. All right, Capri is where the tourists go. Ischia is where the locals go. We have friends in Rome and Ischia. We spent a week there.

This year, 2025, back to Rome, it is a jubilee year for the Catholic faith. It happens once every 25 years. We have a friend who is now the superiority of his order in Rome, and he is very, very facile and tells us what churches to go into. We have several famous restaurants. One of the best pizza places we've ever gone to is Gaudi. G-A-U-D-I; Goudi.

Alison Stewart: All right, Albert, I hope you have a wonderful trip. Thank you for calling. Stephen, I was going to look on your list. [unintelligible 00:21:08] Rob made me think of it. There's a city that I've been to. I've been there many times, and it's Amsterdam. It's on your list at number 26 but they're having a really special year in Amsterdam.

Alison Stewart: Yes, they really are. They're celebrating their 750th birthday. There are tons of events all across the city. There's a major expo there. They're having a 9-mile-long street party. It's a great year to go. They're really going to be celebrating.

Stephen Hiltner: Let's talk to Adele from New Jersey. Hi, Adele. Thank you so much for calling us. You're on the air.

Adele: Hello. I'm a senior, age 83, and I walk without a cane or assistance, but I slow walk. I'd like to take a trip across the country in the United States by train. Do you have any information? I probably would need a sleeper and safety is a big issue.

Alison Stewart: How is train travel across the United States, Stephen?

Stephen Hiltner: We've run stories in recent years about people who have taken and tracked long-distance trains across the United States. Some of them have these really phenomenal observation cars where most of the train car is made of glass. You get to sit in these comfortable chairs and look out and watch the country roll by. I would really recommend you look into it. I have never done it myself. I am very much a road trip guy. I have been stunned by-- There was one photo essay in particular that we ran maybe a year or two ago about a young woman who traveled across the country by train, it just looked absolutely stunning. I don't think you can go wrong there.

Alison Stewart: You have a couple of cities in the States that we haven't talked about yet. New Orleans is on the list and Washington.

Stephen Hiltner: Yes. Both are very exciting places to be. Obviously, New Orleans is still sort of reeling from this latest deadly attack there on New Year's Day, but there's a lot going on this year. They're hosting the 11th Super Bowl the city's hosted, which ties them, I think, for the most of any city in America. Also, mentioning Amtrak, they're restarting services to the city so you can actually travel into New Orleans on the train, which is really exciting. There's just, as is always true in New Orleans, a lot of exciting food developments going on there. Lots of new restaurants, really amazing ways to eat your way through that wonderful city.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Philomena from Westchester. Hi, Philomena. Thank you for calling All Of It. You're on the air.

Philomena: Hi, good afternoon. Well, my husband and I have a bucket list to see all states in the United States. This spring we plan to finish up with the last three; Kentucky, Mississippi, and Oklahoma. We haven't figured out what we'll do in each state, but we've had the good fortune to having been to many of the places that people have mentioned; Greece, Italy Ireland, and such. Looking forward to finishing the bucket list this year in 2025. All 50 states.

Alison Stewart: Love it. Thank you for calling in. John from Jackson Heights has a question for you. Hi, John.

John: Hello. My wife- probably shouldn't be saying it- but her big 50th is coming up this year. She is of Norwegian descent, and in fact, has some cousins in Norway. She really wants to go and try to meet her cousins for the first time over there. I was curious if you had any good suggestions for things and places to go in Norway.

Stephen Hiltner: Yes, absolutely. Actually, there are two places on the list this year in Norway. The one that I'm really excited about is the Lofoten Islands, which is a really remote archipelago. We recommend it as a really wonderful place to see the aurora borealis, the Northern Lights. 2025 is expected to be a really great year for solar activity. This archipelago has 5 main islands 100 miles above the Arctic Circle. It really is the ideal place to see the Northern Lights.

If you're more interested in culture, we recommend this place this year called Kristiansand, Norway, which is a coastal enclave that has really evolved into a cultural hub. There are beautiful new museums there, stylish bars, performing arts centers. Depending on whether you're interested in nature or whether you'd like to have some culture, maybe you can plan a trip and visit both, but both are on our list this year.

Alison Stewart: All right, let's finish off with Japan. The Japanese government estimates that more than 33 million people visited the country in 2024, a growth rate of over 30%. You're not talking Tokyo. You're not talking Kyoto. You're talking about a place that means rich with mountains in English. Where are we going?

Stephen Hiltner: We have two places in Japan this year, but the one that I was really excited about was this city called Toyama. We have a really great journalist, Craig Mod, who writes for us and photographs for us about Japan. This town, Toyama, is a place that most tourists wouldn't know about. It is sort of the gateway to the Noto Peninsula, which on one side is the Japanese Alps, on the other side is the Sea of Japan. There is a stunningly beautiful museum there that also contains a public library. I really recommend hop over to newyorktimes.com just to see the video of this stunning, beautiful building. There are lantern festivals there. There is an amazing culinary scene. It's just a place to go in Japan to avoid the crowds and see a part of Japan that most tourists are not going to visit.

Alison Stewart: What is your highest travel priority in 2025 for you, Stephen?

Stephen Hiltner: That is a good question. I'd like to find a place where I can disconnect for a while, I think. Some of these long-distance hiking trails that we recommend are really appealing to me. Put the phone away, get away from the screens, get out in nature for a little while, and really reconnect with the world a little bit.

Alison Stewart: Stephen Hiltner is a writer, editor and photographer for The New York Times Travel section. Thanks for sharing the list with us.

Stephen Hiltner: Thank you so much for having me.