Tiffany Hanssen: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Tiffany Hanssen, in for Alison Stewart. So far this week, we've talked about New York City's best burgers, ice cream spots. Tomorrow will be pizza. Of course, today we're talking tacos, specifically the best tacos New York City has to offer. Immigrants from Mexico brought Mexican food to New York in the 1960s. In the '80s, more restaurants began to open up to respond to demand. Over the past 40 years, New York has expanded its appetite for Mexican food, specifically tacos.

Currently, birria tacos are the newest craze, but we're not going to just talk about those. We're talking about tacos writ large. The best tacos in the city. We have Luke Fortney from The New York Times here. Welcome back to All Of It.

Luke Fortney: Thank you for having me.

Tiffany Hanssen: Listeners, of course, Luke and I want you in on this conversation as well. We know you have thoughts about tacos. What's your favorite taco restaurant? Maybe something out of the way, not so well known, a place that maybe you wouldn't expect to find tacos, but have great tacos. Call us. 212-433-9692. 221-2433-WNYC. I think I'm going to start with just let's define a taco, because I feel like we could get down the slippery slope of let's define a sandwich. Like, is a hot dog a sandwich? I didn't even say that, listeners. We're not going to go there, but we should probably define what we mean by taco. We mean what?

Luke Fortney: I always thought a hot dog was a taco, for one.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, boy.

Luke Fortney: I know. We're already--

Tiffany Hanssen: He's throwing down the gauntlet.

Luke Fortney: We're starting off hot. A taco, in my mind, is a tortilla with some kind of filling. You have a tortilla either made with masa, corn, or flour, and then you have some kind of filling. We've seen all sorts of things get thrown in there, from cochinita pibil to pastrami.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Luke Fortney: Pastrami in a taco.

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes, pastrami taco. Shots fired, as our producer Kate says. Shots fired on the hot dog is a taco. You are from LA.

Luke Fortney: That's right.

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's just talk about the taco scene that you know from LA versus the taco scene here, and maybe just the Mexican food scene in general. Here's another area where people have very strong thoughts, which is about Mexican food in New York City. Just draw a comparison for us in terms of how you see the different scenes here.

Luke Fortney: I have to say, for one thing, I'm glad that this week, we're talking about tacos alongside things like burgers and pizza. That goes to show how far we've come. This is one of New York's most iconic foods at this point, but growing up in Southern California, I never thought much about great tacos. They were just always there. You go to Walmart, and there's someone selling $1 al pastor tacos that blow your mind. Then, after college, I moved here, started writing about food, and I was like, "Okay, to find a taco, I'm taking a 7 train to Jackson Heights in some cases." It just was more of a hunt, like pizza in LA. You have to know where to look a little bit.

Tiffany Hanssen: Do you think that's still the case? Still more of a hunt?

Luke Fortney: In LA or here?

Tiffany Hanssen: Here.

Luke Fortney: Here with tacos? No, I think you can walk down any block these days and find a taco worth trying. I mean, there are several within a half-mile radius of here.

Tiffany Hanssen: Listeners, we're talking with Luke Fortney here about tacos, in case you hadn't picked up on that. We want to know your recommendations for your favorite taco place. You can call us, you can text us. 212-433-9692. Luke, we got a text here from a listener. "Best taqueria I know, Los Portales on Broadway in Astoria." Our engineer, Juliana, says, "The fish tacos at Las Chelitas in Bensonhurst are great." We're already racking up the great recommendations here. You mentioned that it was a little bit of a hunt to try to find some of these places to find great tacos. Do you think that maybe because of that, or, I don't know, in spite of that, why does New York still get a bad rap when it comes to Mexican food?

Luke Fortney: I was really glad you said what you said at the top of the segment, which is that New York's Mexican restaurant scene is younger than most people realize. I mean, even 40 years ago, in the '80s, according to some studies, there was only a couple of dozen Mexican restaurants here, so it's easy to say, "Okay, the Mexican food scene here, the taco scene here is not good," but I think a more interesting way to look at it is just that it's young. We're seeing it get better every single year, the Mexican immigrant population here is getting more diverse over time, and you see more tacos in regional styles popping up.

Tiffany Hanssen: Are the different kinds of tacos really a regional style issue? Different things go in them, different fillings, different presentation. Is that all just drawn to a regional difference?

Luke Fortney: Yes. It's funny. Sometimes you have things like al pastor and adobada, two very similar kind of pork meats cut from this pig. There are differences, but some people might say the main difference is the name. Each region, though, of Mexico has different preparations of food. Carnitas are made one way in Michoacán. They're made another way in another state. It's very regional. Over time, we're seeing more and more of those preparations show up. What's interesting is we're seeing taquerias now devoting themselves to a single meat or a single taco.

Tiffany Hanssen: Taqueria means a place to go to get tacos.

Luke Fortney: Yes, that's right.

Tiffany Hanssen: I want to ask you about that, but just to, I don't know, get back to this a little bit, because I'm obsessed with what we're calling tacos, apparently. You said it's like a tortilla, right?

Luke Fortney: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. Can I describe for you the taco that I grew up on?

Luke Fortney: Oh, cool. Yes. Where are you from?

Tiffany Hanssen: I was born and raised in Iowa.

Luke Fortney: Okay. All right, let's hear it.

Tiffany Hanssen: It starts and it ends with the grocery store. It has the hard-- I know. You can laugh. It's okay.

Luke Fortney: I'm cracking up.

Tiffany Hanssen: It's the hard thing.

Luke Fortney: The yellow--

Tiffany Hanssen: The yellow hard thing that has ground beef in it with the El Paso seasoning on it. Then they came with those little packets and shredded lettuce and shredded cheese. Ta da.

Luke Fortney: Did you eat them on Tuesday night?

Tiffany Hanssen: Just for a revisionist history, I'm going to say yes. That was what I thought a taco was until I moved to New York City. Then it was like-- I can't imagine, had I moved to Los Angeles, what my anticipation of what a taco would be. If I said to you, "Luke, let's go out for some tacos tonight," we're talking about these little soft things, right? Pork, beef. I'm a vegetarian. Vegetables?

Luke Fortney: Yes. Vegetables. Sure. My mom is a vegetarian. We just did a newsletter on meatless dining. I wouldn't say tacos are her first pick when she comes to visit from California, but there are good meatless tacos now.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. By meatless, you don't just mean, like, "Let's put something that looks like meat in there." You mean, like, "Let's do mushrooms." What's a great place for those?

Luke Fortney: Cariñito in, I guess you would call that Greenwich Village, is a newer restaurant that we had in the newsletter. It's from Mexico City, and they make a really, really great vegetarian taco with eggplant. That's the--

Tiffany Hanssen: Smoky, kind of.

Luke Fortney: Yes. Of course, you could say it's not authentic, but I think that we see people are bending the rules a little bit more over time. When I look around, there's a lot of Mexican-- I'm half Mexican myself, but I see a lot of other Mexican people there with smiles on their faces.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, that's a good sign.

Luke Fortney: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. We have a recommendation here. Chavela's, I'm not probably saying that right, in Crown Heights. You're nodding in that way of like, "Isn't she cute?"

Luke Fortney: No. No, I've actually never been there.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, good. Okay.

Luke Fortney: Can they tell us what street it's on?

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. We'll ask, and then we'll keep moving ahead, and hopefully, we can circle back to that. This listener refuses to share his family's favorite taco joint to avoid making the lines even longer. There are lines at some of these places. Where have you seen the longest lines lately?

Luke Fortney: Oh, man. Okay. For a long time-- Okay. Now, the longest line right now in New York City is probably at Santo Taco. This is in Nolita. It's got to be the most talked-about taqueria in the city right now.

Tiffany Hanssen: What are people going in for?

Luke Fortney: They go for this-- Here's another specific preparation. They're known for a spit of meat, twirling, like a shawarma that you'd cut or a gyro. It's like a steak, al pastor preparation, but they shave it really thin, put it in the tortilla. It almost looks like a piece of beef jerky. It's so good.

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, interesting.

Luke Fortney: It's so good, yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay. Lucy in Brooklyn has got a good recommendation here for us, I think. Hi, Lucy.

Lucy: Hi. I might also want to include a little pushback on the legacy of Mexican in New York City. In the 1990s in Spanish Harlem, I worked on a moving truck, of all things, after taking a break from teaching, and we would pull up to taquerias that had everything. I spent a lot of time in Mexico before that, or some time in Mexico, and it was delicious. You could get goat tacos and all kinds of tacos, and pork in three different preparations. I don't know if that's still there, but we've got roots. Thank you.

Tiffany Hanssen: Yes, thank you. We love the pushback. Excellent. All right. We have a couple of other texts here, too, Luke. "I'm sure this is too obvious, but I'm still going to say Los Tacos No. 1. The, oh, my gosh, adobada?

Luke Fortney: The adobada, yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: What is that?

Luke Fortney: Oh, man. Los Tacos No. 1, I know this is going to cause all sorts of feelings, but--

Tiffany Hanssen: Oh, we're just doing it.

Luke Fortney: Los Tacos No. 1 is, for a lot of people, their favorite taqueria, I think, in the city. They have a number of locations now, but this was the first taqueria here, maybe other than Taco Mix uptown, that I was really proud of, and someone from maybe California would come, and I'd be like, "Hey, here's this great adobada taco that still to this day is so good." It might not beat the one I had at the Walmart parking lot growing up in Southern California, but it's so good. It's so good.

Tiffany Hanssen: That's good.

Luke Fortney: Just rich, fatty-

Tiffany Hanssen: That's a good recommendation.

Luke Fortney: -porky.

Tiffany Hanssen: Here's a text. "So excited for LA's Tacos 1986, their first NYC location, opening today in the West Village on Cornelia Street. I guess they know where you're going for lunch.

Luke Fortney: Isn't that crazy, though? We're at the point now where an LA taqueria sees us as worthy of opening here. I find that kind of interesting.

Tiffany Hanssen: Well, I mean, I would hope so.

Luke Fortney: Finally, we're getting our due.

Tiffany Hanssen: [laughs] I would hope so. Somebody says, "What about shrimp and fish tacos?" Not to be overlooked.

Luke Fortney: Not to be overlooked. There's a great octopus taco. Not what you said, but also swims or slithers up in Greenpoint and in Jackson Heights at Mariscos El Submarino. A really great spot. Really great spot.

Tiffany Hanssen: You mentioned Jackson Heights a couple of times. One of the things on my list here is, in Jackson Heights, Tacos El Lobo.

Luke Fortney: Tacos El Lobo.

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's talk about that. Why do you like that?

Luke Fortney: I love them. They are one of several carnitas specialists now in the city, where they do serve other things, but the main attraction, what you see most people eating there, is just pork. Every part of the pig you can imagine. You can get the ear, you can get the head, you can get the brain. That's my favorite way to order it.

Tiffany Hanssen: What?

Luke Fortney: I see you making a face.

Tiffany Hanssen: Wow.

Luke Fortney: The pig brain, yes. The seso.

Tiffany Hanssen: Okay, I might need a minute.

Luke Fortney: We'll go there after this.

Tiffany Hanssen: I might need a minute. Okay, but I wouldn't have to get that, though.

Luke Fortney: No, there's so many other-- You could just get a pork shoulder, for example, and you'd just have as good of a time.

Tiffany Hanssen: We have, let's see here, "Tortilleria Mexicana Los Hermanos in Williamsburg. They have the best birria taco."

Luke Fortney: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: What is that? What makes a birria taco? I mentioned it.

Luke Fortney: Yes, you mentioned it.

Tiffany Hanssen: Like I knew what I was talking about, yes.

Luke Fortney: I was totally convinced. This is the taco trend that's gripped the city for the last couple of years. It came from Tijuana up through LA, and then made it over here. My number one rec for this style of taco is probably going to be Birria-Landia. This is a taco truck with a couple of locations, but what you can expect is an orange crunchy tortilla stuffed with this soft stewed meat. It's a great textural contrast.

Tiffany Hanssen: Is part of the appeal at some of these places that they are hand-making their tortillas? Do you expect that at this point?

Luke Fortney: Yes, I expect some sort of handmade element. Either they are putting it on the grill-- With the birria tacos, they dip it in the fat and then griddle it until it gets crispy. You could do it that way, or you could make the tortillas by hand if you have the space. I think that really adds to a taco.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. Let's talk with Sheila in Manhattan. Sheila has a recommendation. Hello.

Sheila: Hello. Yes, I have two places. One is La Casa Del Taco in Washington Heights, which is a hole-in-the-wall that I've never seen a really good taco in Washington Heights. That is it. Also, in Coney Island, there's this alley between-- One is called Doña Zita. The other one, I don't know the name of it, but the fish taco is ridiculously good. It's a little expensive, but it's like the whole fish is in the taco. Then the other thing is that New York has never been LA because LA is Mexico, and New York is not Mexico. New York wasn't Mexico until the '90s. In the '90s, that's where Mexicans came. I was born and raised here in the '70s.

My family is from Central America. There were no Mexicans, barely Central Americans, of course. My mother made tortillas from scratch until the '90s, when Mexicans came and started selling them in bodegas. That's the deal. That's why we'll never beat LA, because we're not Mexico, but yes, there's a lot more Mexicans since the '90s, but they would act like there was always Mexicans here. There never was. Anyway.

Tiffany Hanssen: Sheila, I love it. Okay. Thank you for all the opinions and the recommendations. I'm curious about one of the things Sheila touched on here is this notion that things pop up, go away, come back, change locations. A lot of the places that we might give recommendations to are pop-ups.

Luke Fortney: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: Why is that? Is it just easier, and the taco is a really good thing to be able to do in a small space if you don't have a huge kitchen?

Luke Fortney: One thing about a pop-up, which is a business that roams around the city, might appear at a bar, serve a menu for one night, is you can really experiment with ideas. If someone's like, "I don't know if people are going to like pig brain tacos." You can go to a bar in Bed-Stuy and serve them out of the backyard and see if it resonates. You can, in that way, fine-tune ideas. Some of these businesses, some of these tacos are things that New Yorkers, for the most part, are trying for the first time. I do see people testing a lot of ideas in that way.

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's see here. "Best taco experience in the Hudson Valley, by no means authentic Mexican, but delicious variety. The restaurant is such a well-oiled machine, albeit sometimes loud. Hudson Taco, right on the river in Newburgh, they have Korean beef tacos." Fusion's a thing.

Luke Fortney: Yes, fusion is a thing. I hadn't had a good fusion taco maybe ever, but in a long time, until that place I mentioned with the eggplant earlier, Cariñito in Greenwich Village, they do a Mexican-Thai fusion taco thing, and really pull it off. It works so well.

Tiffany Hanssen: I have them on the list here. Are they a pop-up?

Luke Fortney: Yes, they're here until January or the end of December.

Tiffany Hanssen: Is there hope that they're going to stay or find a permanent place, a permanent home?

Luke Fortney: I think with a lot of these businesses, I've noticed that people-- One thing that I hear from these restaurant owners is that they're surprised by the outpouring of support. They come here, they're like, "Okay, let's see how it goes." Then they end up staying because people are just like, there's this taco fanaticism now in the city, and people really take a lot of pride in it.

Tiffany Hanssen: Let's get one last call in here before we have to bolt out of here. Let's take George in Brooklyn. Hi, George.

George: Hi. How are you?

Tiffany Hanssen: Good. You got a recommendation for us?

George: Definitely. Carnitas Ramirez, East 3rd Street in the East Village. There's no place like it. I love fusion, but this is not fusion. It's like carnitas like nobody does, and it's got a diagram of every part of the pig that they cook, and it's delicious.

Tiffany Hanssen: Delicious. What do you think, Luke?

Luke Fortney: Oh, man, that place is the best. It almost feels like you walk up, you got the steam table of all the meats. I didn't learn enough Spanish growing up, even being Mexican, but you learn new vocabulary every time you're there. A new part of the pig. You've got to say it to eat it.

Tiffany Hanssen: It's a vocabulary lesson while you're there as well.

Luke Fortney: Yes.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right. If we're going out for tacos tonight, Luke, where are we going?

Luke Fortney: For us, I think we should go to Carnitas Ramirez or their other restaurant, Taqueria Ramirez.

Tiffany Hanssen: All right, we got it. We've been talking with Luke Fortney, who works at the New York Times. We've been talking about none other than the best tacos in New York City. Tomorrow, it will be pizza, the best pizza in New York. I anticipate, Luke, there will be a lot more feelings about that as well coming up tomorrow when we talk about the best pizza in New York City. Luke, thanks for coming in.

Luke Fortney: Thanks for having me.

Tiffany Hanssen: I'm Tiffany Hanssen, sitting in for Alison Stewart today. I'll be back tomorrow, and we'll talk then.