Alison Stewart: This is All of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us, and thanks for being here with us during our penultimate day of our spring pledge drive. We really do appreciate it. Coming up on the show today, we'll preview the summer performance calendars for two cultural powerhouses, Little Island and Lincoln Center, and we'll spend the last half of our show talking about liberty. We will preview New York's WNBA team and we'll talk about a new exhibit at the historic Fraunces Tavern commemorating New York's role in the American Revolution. That is our plan. Let's get things started right now with an update on the Sean Combs trial.

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Listeners, we want you to know that our next conversation would deal with adult themes and sexual assault. If you feel like you need help, the National Sexual Assault Hotline the number is 800-656-HOPE. It is the trial that has everyone in New York talking. The federal trial of hip hop mogul Sean Diddy Combs began last week and included testimony from his former longtime girlfriend, Cassandra Ventura, known professionally as Cassie.

It continued this week with testimony from a former personal assistant, a male escort and Cassie's parents. Today is the eighth day of the trial. The case has been explosive in many ways. Combs has long ruled as one of the most influential figures in music. Just two years ago, he became one of a handful of black billionaires, but a lot has changed. He now faces five criminal counts involving charges of sex trafficking, racketeering and transportation for purposes of prostitution.

So far, the jury has seen a harrowing videotape, heard about parties called freak offs, and alleged incidents of violent behavior and coercion. If found guilty, he could spend anywhere from 15 years to life in prison. Sean Combs has denied all charges. Catherine Christian is a lawyer who once worked in the New York District Attorney's office on intimate partner violent cases. She's currently a partner at Liston Abramson. She's been following the case and she's here to give us a status update. Welcome to the studio.

Catherine Christian: Happy to be here.

Alison Stewart: People see Puffy sitting up there, this person, a music industry mogul, and they might not understand why he's being charged with racketeering. Could you explain to us why this is in part a RICO case?

Catherine Christian: Yes. Well, typically when you talk about racketeering cases, we talk about organized crime, the mob, the narcotics organizations, any criminal organization. Well, what the government is saying is, I still call him Puffy, that the defendant, Sean Combs, is part of and the leader of a criminal organization. The legalese is the government is going to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, or will prove, they hope, that the defendant Combs was the leader of a criminal enterprise that was engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity that affected interstate commerce. What is that in plain English?

Criminal enterprise was basically defined as individuals who work together for a common purpose. In this case, it's the defendant, Puff Daddy, it's his entities, his business entities, which includes Bad Boy Entertainment, and it's the people who work for him. His high-ranking supervisors, his security staff, his personal assistants and other employees. Those are the members of the criminal enterprise. Why is it criminal? Because they're engaging in racketeering activity. What is racketeering activity? Crimes. Not all crimes. Designated crimes under federal law. In this case, the government is saying he bribed people. Bribery.

He paid to have the tape that we saw, the infamous tape of him beating the stuffing out of his girlfriend. He kidnapped people. He engaged in distributing narcotics for some of the people for the freak offs. He engaged in arson. He allegedly blew up someone's car, the ex-boyfriend of Cassie Ventura. He engaged in obstruction of justice trying to convince witnesses not to testify. That's the racketeering activity.

What is the pattern? Under the law, a pattern means you have to commit two acts, two of those crimes for the purpose of the organization. That's the layperson's way of defining what racketeering activity is. That's what they say he did. He used his Bad Boy Entertainment, all of his entities and all of the people who work, not all of people, certain people who work for him in order to cover up for him, to puff up his brand, no pun intended, and to hide the crimes that he was committed.

Alison Stewart: It is said that this could take two months.

Catherine Christian: Yes. The prosecutors said there would be an eight-week trial. Their case. Now we have seven weeks left. People keep saying, oh, it was just Cassie and it's just about domestic violence. No. As we've seen, it's going to be witness after witness, document after document. That's the government's case to prove that this-- I also say if he's found guilty of the racketeering conspiracy or sex trafficking, he could face a life sentence. This is a very big, serious deal for this particular defendant.

Alison Stewart: If you're on his team, on the defense's team, what is your strategy?

Catherine Christian: Well, they have the only defense they have. Once that tape is there, they can't say don't look at it. All they can say is this is just domestic violence. We're not saying that's a good thing. It's horrible. He admits to that. Everything was consent. The lawyers have to say it is not a crime to get your freak on at freak offs. It's not a crime for kinky sex. It may sound disgusting to you, but people do that and it's consensual.

That's really the only defense they have. Then for every witness that they can to cross examine them and what's called impeach their credibility, make it seem to the jury that they're lying, or they're mistaken, or they just were not in a position to really testify accurately to what they're testifying to. That's the best defense and really the only defense that Sean Combs has.

Alison Stewart: This video shows him wrapped in a towel. He is chasing Cassie down the hall. He is beating her. How important is this video in this case?

Catherine Christian: It's very important. The defense says it shows domestic violence. What it shows, this is what the government will say, it shows violence. It shows sex trafficking by force. That's the charge. If you believe Cassie Ventura, she was escaping one of the freak offs. The freak offs are the sex trafficking. That's why it's so important. If you're a defense attorney, you want to minimize it and say it's horrible, it's horrible, but it's just domestic violence. If you're the government, no, it shows this man is capable of violence and it wasn't a slap.

If you've seen the video, he's chasing her, he's dragging her, he's hitting her, punching and slapping her. It's very violent. Does that mean that he engaged in sex trafficking and racketeering? No, but it's one piece of evidence to show this defendant is a violent person and lets the evidence roll out and we'll have one person after another to show that that violence was part of the sex trafficking.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with attorney Catherine Christian about the ongoing trial of Sean Diddy Combs. Last week we heard from Cassie. She told very graphic stories, disturbing stories of alleged abuse, things that she endured during the freak offs. How did this testimony set the stage for the prosecution for the next seven weeks?

Catherine Christian: Well, it set the stage and it's interesting, today and maybe tomorrow, the prosecutors are calling an expert, a clinical psychologist, and she's not going to Say that the defendant abused Cassie or that Cassie was abused by the defendant. That is improper. What she will is explain to the jury the dynamics of intimate partner violence. That's the term we use now. We move away from domestic violence. Why would a person stay with someone who's physically violent to them, emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive, why would that person stay? She will explain not why Cassie stayed, why did Puff Daddy do this? She'll explain in general terms how it happens.

I hear people say all the time, "If I get hit, I'm out the door. That'll be the first and last time." That is for most people, but for others it's not. This expert will explain the dynamics about how someone, if they're financially dependent, that's a reason why. Lack of self-esteem, that's a reason why. Physical intimidation, economic abuse, that's a reason why. Basically, you're traumatized, and you're coerced. It's a course of effect. There's reward and punishment. He's good one day and then he's bad the next. He gave me money. He took me to a premier. He gave me all this wonderful jewelry. He promised me a contract.

Then it's taken away. It's like a cycle. The government will have to make the jury understand that. There are going to be other witnesses testify who worked for him, who were also subject not to sexual abuse, but other abuse. There's allegations of forced labor, people being forced to work around the clock. Why would people like that stay? Again, financial dependence. Also, you want to be a music career, this is the person who can make that happen. Also, remember Cassie Ventura was 19 years old when she got involved with him and he was 37.

Alison Stewart: Well, you heard from her mother who detailed alleged abuse and spoke about Diddy demanding money to keep a sex tape from his daughter being released and took pictures of her. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, the defense chose not to cross examine her.

Catherine Christian: Very wise. They've already conceded that their client beat up her daughter, and so why would you cross her? She didn't talk about freak offs. She said, "My daughter was beaten. I saw the photos," they've already conceded that he's beaten her, "and I had to give him $20,000." They know that's true and believe me, the government knows it's true because they got the documents that show there was a wire and it went into the account of the defendant's business.

They can show that the $20,000 was put in a checking account. All that was documented. If I'm the defense attorney, I'm just going to, "Thank you very much. I have no questions." Because why belabor the point that their client tried to shake down the mother of the domestic violence victim?

Alison Stewart: My guest is attorney Catherine Christian. We are talking about the ongoing trial of Sean Diddy Combs. Yesterday the jury heard from David James, a former personal assistant. What was the significance of his testimony?

Catherine Christian: When you have someone on trial who's the leader of an organization, whether it's mob or narcotics trafficking, typically you have what we call flip people. Flip the underlings, the people who worked for the big person, the big fish. Why? To show the jury this is how the organization ran, and this is the type of boss this person was. This personal assistant, "The defendant stayed often at the Trump Hotel, which I believe is the one on Columbus Circle. He would send me to get supplies at the Duane Reade, which is right near there." He had a drug dealer. I think the person was called One Stop. That's where he got his drugs.

He let the jury know I worked for him for this amount of years, and this is how he operated. In other words, this is how he engaged in the sex trafficking. I saw him with guns. Once we went to Mel's Diner in Los Angeles, not the Mel's Diner from the Alice Show. We went there and I was with his security, D-Rock, that was one of the security people. We ran into Suge Knight, who was also a big-time music producer. Then when we came back home, went to where Puffy was. Suddenly guns appear, and they were going to go and confront Suge Knight. Then this personal assistant said, then that's when he had it.

What that shows, again, this is, again, the violence. This is someone who had ready access to firearms and was violent enough to want to confront someone with them. Now you can say this person is lying and I'm sure the defense will say that, or they will say that still doesn't show sex trafficking. He didn't go there. The defense will admit to any crimes that he hasn't been charged with or the statute of limitations have passed on.

That's very easy. If they try to, and this happens a lot, say this guy's a bum, he's a sleazebag, well, this bum and sleaze bag worked for your client all these years and did your bidding. That's always the negative for the defense. You want to make these people seem like they're horrible, but your client hired them, and he worked for this defendant who you're saying is innocent for years.

Alison Stewart: What are some of the important distinctions that we should keep in mind as we view this case in the next seven weeks as we're reading about it?

Catherine Christian: It is not a domestic violence case.

Alison Stewart: It's not. Despite what we've said, it's not a domestic violence--

Catherine Christian: Yes, Ms. Ventura and Mr. Combs' lawyers at least and Mr. Combs, he gave a video right after the tape was released. Mr. Combs, I think, did an Instagram video where he said he was ashamed and he was going to get therapy, et cetera. That's why in people's head, "Oh, he's on trial for that. How does that turn into sex trafficking?" That is not what he's on trial for. That is one element. That day in the hotel when she was allegedly escaping from the freak off sex trafficking, where he was caught on video beating her, is just one piece of proof that he was engaged regularly in sex trafficking.

He's charged with two counts of that. That he used his business and the people who worked for the business to engage in the sex trafficking, and he did it from state to state. New York, Florida, Los Angeles and California. That's the interstate commerce. He bribed people and he kidnapped people, and he committed arson, and he committed the sex trafficking and obstruction of justice. Those are the crimes. Yesterday and part of today was a special agent who's involved in human trafficking so you're going to hear about the search warrants that were executed.

Alison Stewart: In Miami, yes.

Catherine Christian: Yes. How they recovered the money shot or the high heeled pink shoes. The crime which shows the violence, the force, are the guns. The AR15s, the ammunition, the defaced firearms, the drugs that were recovered, the ketamine. Every day is evidence that the government will say shows the racketeering conspiracy. It's not a domestic violence case.

Alison Stewart: Is there a world where Sean Combs takes a plea deal?

Catherine Christian: He apparently was offered one before the case. We don't know what that was, to what charge, to what sentence, recommendation. It's always a possibility when someone is on trial you can plead. You can even plead guilty when the jury is deliberating. That's always a possibility. It appears he's not. This is the defense, but there's always a possibility. Defendants can plead guilty in the middle of jury deliberations with the consent of the court.

Alison Stewart: As someone who has worked on these types of cases, are they hard to win?

Catherine Christian: They are hard to win sometimes, but if you have a victim who's credible and a jury who understands and can say to themselves, "I would have never tolerated this, but I understand why she did." I'm saying she but there are men who are victims of domestic violence too. I understand why. She was 19. She was young. She was promised a album deal, and it didn't happen. He isolated her. He controlled who she could see. I understand why. When you're a prosecutor or a defense attorney, you take little nuggets out of testimony.

The best friend who said that she was also hit, and then that was it for her and Cassie, because Cassie didn't come to her defense, though she got paid, I think, $30,000, one line she said in her testimony was that she had looked over at Cassie and it looked like she didn't care if Puffy, or Diddy, came in and killed her. That to me, stuck out. That to me would be something I would say in summation as a prosecutor. Her best friend is looking at him like she doesn't even care if she's killed. That's why she stayed.

She reached that trauma, that she just became numb to it. It was an everyday occurrence, and that's just what her life became. If you as the prosecutor can convince them of that and all the other witnesses, they're going to talk about you heard from the security, you heard from this person, you heard from that person, are they all in a conspiracy against him, that's how you would get a jury to believe it. Now, defense will just look for one person and hope for a hung jury.

Alison Stewart: [coughs] Excuse me. My guest has been attorney Catherine Christian. She walked us through the ongoing trial of Sean Diddy Combs. Thank you for coming in and explaining all of this to us. We really do appreciate it.

Catherine Christian: My pleasure.