[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar in for Alison Stewart. Hey, thanks for spending part of Monday with us. I'm so glad that you're here. On today's show, we will talk about the new play Invasive Species. It's based on playwright and actor Maia Novi's, firsthand account of being hospitalized at a psychiatric hospital. She joins us to discuss, along with the director Michael Breslin and author Nicola Yoon, will be here her, her new novel. It's titled One of Our Kind. It's like what would happen if Stepford Wives met Get Out. She joins us in studio to discuss. That's the plan, so let's get this started with a debate about the best Pixar film.

[MUSIC - Randy Newman: You've Got A Friend In Me]

Kousha Navidar: When you hear that song, aren't you just filled with memories and nostalgia for the first time you saw Toy Story? Toy Story was my first favorite movie. I remember how old I was. I remember going to see it. I remember obsessing over the toys in real life. Toy Story is just one of the many beloved films within the Pixar universe, and the latest movie from the studio just released in theaters this weekend. It's Inside Out 2. It's the sequel to the successful originals. Stay tuned later this hour where we'll speak to a psychologist who worked on Inside Out 2 to help inform the characters of the story.

We're also going to talk to a writer from the movie, but for now, we're super inspired by Inside Out 2's release, and we want to try to answer, I think the ultimate question of our time, or maybe just this next half hour, which is what is the best Pixar movie and why?

To help us try to answer that question for the next installment of our Small Stakes, Big Opinions series, I'm joined by Will Leach, New York Magazine, contributing editor and Tim Grierson, of Film Critic. They ranked the best Pixar movies for Vulture, which seems dangerous-- there's some courage in this because there are some big opinions. On this side of the mic, at least there are both of you Tim, Will welcome so much. Thank you for coming. Glad to have you here. Hi.

Tim Grierson: Thank you for having us. It was easier when we first started the ranking. It was five, six, seven, eight years ago. With each new film, there's more and more debate and argument about what we got wrong, what we got right. I think one thing that's nice about Pixar honestly is that there are maybe five or six movies I think people would say are perhaps the favorite and best Pixar movie. Will and I know which one is in fact the best Pixar movie.

[laughter]

Will Leitch: Exactly. You're welcome.

Tim Grierson: I think in general, people are that passionate and sure about what movie is the best Pixar movie because they love it so much.

Kousha Navidar: We're going to hear and give you listening right now a chance to put in your own opinion in this debate. Let's hear it listeners right now, what's the best Pixar movie and why is it, Toy Story? Is it Wally? Is it Coco? We want your opinion. Tim and Will have their opinions, and they will express them and they will say that they're very right, and we'll go into that.

We want to hear what you think as well, so call us or text us. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692 or you can DM us on social or @allofitwnyc. We're also interested to hear just what movies you associate with your Pixar movie of choice. What memories do you associate with those movies? Maybe you think the best Pixar movie is one that you think is underappreciated and you want to say which one is underappreciated.

Give us a call. We're at 212-433-WNYC. That's 212-433-9692. As you both write in the article, ranking Pixar movies is like ranking your own children, but you had to decide. Will, let's start with you. What were some of the criteria that you used to judge each movie in order to come up with the rankings?

Will Leitch: A lot of this comes in-- you'll find a lot of their great movies. There was really a stretch between around 2000. Really from '95, really till about 2010, where they really just couldn't miss, and I think one of the things that's been interesting about updating the rankings in recent years they've missed more. [chuckles] It allows you to appreciate how lasting those old movies are.

Listen, there is a certain formula that they always reflect back to. I think you've seen satirists sometimes come up with weird concepts and give them funny little Pixar voices. There is a formula. I think as the years has settled in about a little bit, and I think in recent years there has been more of a reliance on that formula rather than an inventiveness of that formula.

You've seen more sequels, you've seen more going back to the well on things. Now, some of these sequels are quite good. Four of our top eight movies are Toy Story movies. [laughter]

Those movies are still working out pretty well. I'm glad to report with the people that you have on show the show later. We like the new one. The new one is a good sequel as well, but I do think that one of the-- sometimes it doesn't work. I think one of their worst movies was probably Lightyear, which was less a sequel and more a spinoff, and it felt like them trying to move product. I think you've seen in recent years as Pixar has become more a part of the larger corporate experience as opposed to something that was outside of it, decisions are being made more commercially than creatively, which is understandable.

That is how America often tends to work, but nevertheless, I think there was a pure period there at the beginning and toward the middle where they really could do no wrong.

Kousha Navidar: Then what are the criteria that you were using when you were like, "All right, we're going to rank these empirically," I guess even if it is based on opinion?

Will Leitch: It's not a recipe but certainly [chuckles] it's like, "Oh, that one had 66% too few laughs.

[laughter]

I do think that how these things you-- we do go back and watch these movies because you do want to for the record credit to you for having incredible taste when you were younger because Toy Story is a truly, truly great movie, but [unintelligible 00:06:48]

Kousha Navidar: Before you compliment me too much. I have some gripes later on, so you might want to save that, but for now--

[crosstalk]

Will Leitch: Perhaps your taste--

[crosstalk]

Tim Grierson: We're buttering you up now.

Will Leitch: Perhaps your taste has gotten worse since you got married. Who are we to say? The point is that generally speaking movies, they tend to hold up, but we could go back and try to watch these movies, and the ones that hold up really have that specific Pixar magic where they are about a very clear storyline where a lot of times in some of the new movies, they get lost in the, "We're going on an adventure, we're going on a journey," and the whole middle part is they're all off on a quest or something.

I think the best ones really have that purity where they appeal for kids. Obviously, these are animated films for kids, but they really speak to adults just as much, if not more so, and I think that's why you see Pixar movies that people watch as a kid, they actually become more beloved to people as they become adults than less.

Kousha Navidar: Tim, Will mention the Pixar formula that is so well known. It's almost satirized in some ways. Can you describe what that formula is a little bit?

Tim Grierson: Yes. I think specifically of the Simpsons episode where it was a refrigerator filled with condiments where they're basically making fun of the Pixar model. I think that the formula is essentially-- it's a world that you've never thought of because it's not real or it doesn't have sentient beings, but what if it did, and what if they could talk, and often the main character is a little insecure or needs a learn an important life lesson that maybe the audience can also learn.

Through an adventure that they go on, they will learn those valuable lessons that the audience and specifically younger viewers will also learn along the way. Now there's a lot of really great movies in the Pixar canon. They fit that model, but the less good ones you can go, "Oh, it's point A, then point B, then point C, then point D." You can see the seams a lot more easily, but that's essentially, I'd say the formula.

There will be laughs. There'll probably be tears, there will be hugs. The characters will tend to be not talking down to the younger viewers. They tend to be smarter than your typical animated fair.

Kousha Navidar: Folks we're talking with Will Leitch, who's a New York Magazine contributing editor, and Tim Grierson who's a film critic and we're here debating what the best Pixar movie is. They came up with a list that they put out and we want to know what you think, so give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Let's get into the debate a little bit.

I got some texts here that I want to read. Just going to go down the list. One of them says, "My daughter has seen Coco maybe 50 times during early COVID. She's often entertained us by delivering long stretches of dialogue." We have another one that says Ratatouille. We have another one that says WALL·E, The Incredibles is up, so there's a huge spectrum. I don't think there's been any Pixar movie yet in our list of texts that has been repeated once. We've already mentioned Toy Story, I want to dive right into the top of the list because there is of course the first Toy Story. Your number one pick, your second pick, your fourth pick and your sixth pick and your eighth pick, all four Toy Story movies cracked Your Top 10. Why does this Toy Story franchise as a whole stand up to all the other Pixar movies rather than just the original Toy Story? Will get us started.

Will Leitch: I think there is-- it was the first. This was the one that really launched the Pixar brand. It was funny to think now all everyone could talk about was like, "My animated movie made by a computer, well, I never." It seemed to be the vibe when the Toy Story came out and then it's so perfect on a story level, we talk about the formula. That formula is basically Toy Story formula. It turns out that all of your toys when you shut the door all have inner lives. They all interact with one another and they miss you when they're gone. They're afraid you're going to put them away. That is a very rich vein which to mine-- I think they've been able to do that consistently through all those movies.

Some people whatever movie you rank, I think they're all good. I think there was worries about Toy Story 4 specifically because it had been so long since Toy Story 3 and it felt Pixar was in a different place and maybe they wouldn't be as pure to those characters. It was very much a relief then that Toy Story 4 really still was powerful. One of those primary reasons is I think for all the sequels, all the sequel lies, all the corporate aspect of it, Toy Story is still the core property, the signature property. You could make an argument even it's Tom Hanks best roll. It's definitely Tim Allen's best roll.

Kousha Navidar: Sure.

Will Leitch: It certainly it could buy-- It is really pure to the whole Pixar experience, everything born out of there. I think even when they do sequels, there is a sense of this is, "We have to do right by these characters." Because they mean so much to Pixar in our manifestation of Pixar. All four of them are really good. They're still talking about doing a fifth and sixth, you don't want them to press their luck too much but so far they've all been very, very good.

Kousha Navidar: Tim, I find it very interesting that we talked earlier that sequels are hard to do for Pixar in some ways and yet so many of these sequels have cracked the top 10. Do you think that it's fair to have Toy Story sequels be so much higher than some original properties?

Tim Grierson: Yes. I would say so. I think also what we haven't discussed is that I think very much in terms of what your favorite Pixar movies are, they are based on the time that you saw them. Like for instance the text person who said that her daughter has watched Coco so many times. I think the age that you first see your first Pixar movies is so important. Will and I are both in our late 40s, we saw Toy Story at a moment where there was nothing like it and we were in college at that point and it blew our minds. I think that Toy Story for people who remember Toy Story at a formative time in their lives, it was nothing else.

We've been saying, there's something that is emotionally pure about all the Toy Story movies that I think for a lot of us who've grown up loving Pixar movies, Toy Story is Pixar. That is what every other movie is judged by. While there've been a lot of great originals since then like Inside Out like Monsters Inc, like The Incredibles for instance, Toy Story is still the thing do we hold up as the gold standard. Woody and Buzz and that relationship between those two characters I think to Pixar's credit, not only do they love that franchise, they take it very seriously. I always feel like when they make a Toy Story sequel, the core mission is, "We can't screw this up because this is the franchise of all the franchises that we've done. This is the one that people have as close to their heart as any of the movies we've ever made."

I think they've done a great job with each of the sequels expanding the idea of the original, which is how do we think of our childhood? How do we think of our childhood toys and how do we think about growing up and becoming adults ourselves and moving away from childhood? I think that's a thing that no matter what age you are, those movies speak to you in your life. Yes, they've had a lot of great originals but those sequels are really special. Those are really, really great movies too.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, what in your opinion is the best Pixar movie and why? Is it Toy Story? Is it Toy Story 2 or three or four? Do they all sit in the top 10 for you? Give us a call, send us a text. We want your opinion. We want to know why you think your favorite movie deserves to be the favorite movie. Give us a call. We're at 212-433-9692. That's 212-433-WNYC. Before we go to break, I want to bring down our first caller who I believe actually has Toy Story is one of their favorites. This is Charlotte in Larchmont, New York. Hey Charlotte, welcome to the show.

Charlotte: Hey, how doing?

Kousha Navidar: Hey.

Charlotte: Can you hear me [unintelligible 00:15:17]?

Kousha Navidar: Charlotte, you're breaking up. Can you hear us?

Charlotte: Yes, can hear you that right now.

Kousha Navidar: No. Charlotte, we're having some technical difficulties. We're going to have our engineers put you down for a second. We'll see if we can get you back. We're going to go to a break then. We're here with Will Leitch and Tim Grierson who are talking about what their favorite Pixar movies are. We want your opinion. Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. We're going to take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to get into some of the controversial opinions and I have a bone to pick with both of you. Strap in and get ready. We'll be right back.

[MUSIC - Luscious Jackson: Citysong]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar and we are talking about what in your opinion is your favorite Pixar movie. It's part of our small stakes big opinion series. Inside Out 2 just came out this weekend. We are inspired to know what the best Pixar movie in your opinion is. We're here with Will Leitch and Tim Grierson and we're here, our phones are open. Give us a call, send us a text. We're at 212-433-9692. I want to dive into some of the controversial pieces here. For me personally, I took an afront with how you ranked Monsters Inc. One of my personal favorites is Monsters Inc. Not only was I disappointed to see it land on 13th on your list, I think it's safe to say that I was outraged even incensed, my blood is boiling. Will, what do you have to say for yourself?

Will Leitch: Listen, Monsters Inc's a good movie. No one's against that. Pixar made a lot of really good movies like Turning Red, which is right above it is fantastic. Inside Out 2 very, very good. Finding Dory, Up. You you're telling me-- Are you telling me that all-- you're going to tell all the people that cry] of Up that your movie is better? This is the problem with Pixar is there's many good movies that everybody has one that we're really dedicated to. It's something we almost we prepare ourselves when we have this conversation. It's funny because Tim and I do this list. We do not actually-- We have to debate among ourselves.

Sometimes we do this list, we do not have the same brain. Occasionally Tim is off on things and I have to correct him. At a certain level you get passionate about movies and I think that Tim is actually a little higher on Monsters Inc than I am actually even in that regard. He's a little higher on other movies than I am. I think that's the thing about Pixar is people are passionate about the ones that they specifically love. Monsters Inc is a wonderful movie. I think the sequels actually fine too. I just think there's so many good movies that it's hard to see. You going to put that above Ratatouille, you're going to put that above any of the Toy Stories. I find that hard to do.

Kousha Navidar: Tim, I'm not going to say I'm angry. I think I'm just disappointed. What was it that was stopping? Because Finding Dory was higher on your list than Monsters Inc?

Tim Grierson: I'm assuming that you were disappointed when Will said that sometimes I'm wrong. Which I appreciate that you felt that way too. Monsters Inc has one of the very best final scenes in any Pixar movie. One of the absolute best. It was funny at the time that was my favorite last scene in a Pixar movie. I think it's the Billy Crystal question when you get to Monsters Inc. I think your mileage really varies with Billy Crystal in that movie because he is doing the patented Billy Crystal thing.

Sometimes I think it's a little too much. I think John Goodman is terrific in that movie. Billy Crystal may be a little bit less terrific in that movie. I am a big Finding Dory fan because I'm a big Finding Nemo fan. Andrew Stanton who did those two movies and also did WALL-E, Which we're big fans of. I think Andrew Stanton is the best pure filmmaker of the Pixar group, especially that original group of filmmakers. I think Finding Dory is really, really terrific as well. Because it does the thing that you want a sequel to do, which is to say, "Okay, we have this amazing world, we have these amazing characters.

What if we shifted the focus a little bit on one of the supporting characters, made it more about her and expanded her world." I think Finding Dory does that in a really, really great way while being almost as funny and almost as emotional as Finding Nemo. I'm pretty high on Finding Dory. Obviously the movie did very well but I think almost critically it's a little underappreciated because Finding Nemo is so beloved.

Kousha Navidar: Let's go to a call. We've got Kurt and Astoria. Hey Kurt, welcome to the show.

Kurt: Hi. I was just talking about the-- I think their finest movie-- I agree with everything you said especially about Finding Dory. The first 10, 15 minutes of Up seing that as a standalone film I think is one of their greatest works.

Kousha Navidar: Kurt, thanks so much.

Kurt: Just the story--

Kousha Navidar: Yes. No, go ahead. Go ahead.

Kurt: No, no, no. I was going to elaborate, but let your experts elaborate. I want to know if they agree.

Kousha Navidar: Yes, because this is-- well, Kurt, first, thanks so much for the call, but Up is a controversial choice some would say on your list here because you've got it at 10, which some might consider a bombshell choice. What's your defense for putting Up so far down? Will, go ahead.

Will Leitch: Listen, I agree with the first 15 minutes of Up. If the whole movie were the first 15 minutes of Up, I think you could make an argument it could be-- it's devastating. It's just this pure start to finish just kills you, but then the movie keeps going. The rest of the movie is still good. I think it's still a good Pixar movie. It just doesn't have that emotional heft. Whenever I talk to people about Up, they always talk about the first 15 minutes, and then they'll talk about the dog who is funny. The dog is definitely very funny in Up. I noticed they never talk about the kid. They never talk about the villain. They always tend to gloss over.

One of the things that's interesting about Pixar movies is they connect so emotionally with us that we actually think of the parts that we love so much and just forget sometimes about the stuff that doesn't work as well. When people talk about Up, they never bring up the-- they just push the parts out of their mind that's not as interesting or more of a traditional movie and just focus on the first 15 minutes, which are wonderful, but they're not in fact the whole movie. I think that's why we're so high on Up, but lower than I think what other people might think.

Kousha Navidar: Well, Kurt, I want to say thanks for calling and for giving some love to Up. I want to give some more love to Monsters, Inc. We just got a text and it says, "Agree with the host." First of all, thank you for this text. Agree with the host. Monsters, Inc. is way underrated. They used four A's in the word way. I put it top three. Much better than Ratatouille. We've also got another text here that I think is a nice segue. It says Cars, Paul Newman and the car talk boys. Great story as always and so imaginative. Brought an adult friend and said, "You're taking to animation." He stayed wide eyed the whole time. Now, let's go into Cars for a hot sec because speaking of sequels or a trilogy, as we did before, Cars 3 is last on your list. Tim, I guess Cars just doesn't do it for you.

Tim Grierson: It's very funny to think that when the original Cars came out, the critical consensus was like, "Oh, this is the first mediocre Pixar movie." That was seen as the first step down after the hits they'd had beforehand. We both liked Cars at the time, but we didn't like as much as Toy Story or even A Bug's Life. I don't like Cars 2. I really don't like Cars 3. I'd be curious what that person thought of the sequels because I felt with both Cars 2 and Cars 3 they moved away from the heart of the first Cars movie.

I think the original Cars, a problem that it has, is it's a little sweeter, a little gentler, it's not as funny. Also, I think that story was a little familiar at that time. It's basically Doc Hollywood is that movie, which is not bad, per se, but it was the first Pixar movie where people thought, "Oh, I know this story. It doesn't feel as original as their earlier movies." I think because of that, Cars has always been put down a little bit in the overall Pixar canon, but I have to say as someone who had a nephew who came of age around Cars, he loved Cars so much. He loves actual cars and loved that movie, but I don't think that that in terms of the individual franchises, I don't think it's as special, I don't think it's as funny. I just don't think it's as good as a Toy Story or an Incredibles or frankly even a Monsters, Inc.

Kousha Navidar: Well, let's go to the top movie on your list. To kick us off, we're going to talk to Chris from Garden City. Chris, welcome to the show.

Chris: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Yes, I was going to say my personal favorite, yes, is WALL-E. Don't get me wrong. This is super difficult to debate. It's just great because it's got such a fantastic commentary on our consumer culture. It's got one of the best visions of an apocalyptic future and also with the direction that we're headed with our smart phones and just becoming so plugged in. With my girls it comes to Toy Story 3 and Ratatouille. They just love those movies all the time.

Kousha Navidar: Chris, I'm going to pause you there just for time, but thank you so much for that and for bringing in your whole families perspectives on it. Real quick, I want to know, Will, for you what did WALL-E do that was so innovative and why number one on your list?

Will Leitch: It's number one. We really feel like we should get with the film number one our list. There is an ambition and Scope to WALL-E that really felt different, even almost aberrational. Obviously, Pixar is ambitious. They always try to do a lot of interesting things, but let's not forget, the first half hour of WALL-E is worthless. Everything is told, there's no dialogue, there's just music, but you understand this world immediately and you care about this little character.

Another wonderful thing about WALL-E that Pixar has never actually done that great at, it's such a great love story. It's a nice little love story, WALL-E. I find that movie emotional and romantic in a certain way while also being very, very funny, and yes, as the caller points out, doesn't necessarily make the best case for the human race sometimes in that movie, while still having that Pixar feel and that excitement. There's some great action sequences in that movie. I'm not sure. It's been 16 years since WALL-E and that still is the pinnacle, I think, for both me and for Tim.

Kousha Navidar: Well, we're running out of time, but I want to get one more caller in who has a rebuttal for the., I guess, entire system of ranking or at least their own perspective. Let's go to Esei in Manhattan. Hey, welcome to the show.

Esei: Hi. Thanks so much.

Kousha Navidar: Go ahead.

Esei: Can you hear me?

Kousha Navidar: Yes, hi.

Esei: Okay. 2020 lockdown, my husband and I were looking for something to do. We developed a rubric to rank every Pixar movie because I'll say I was a huge Good Dinosaur fan, and I did not find a lot of company in that. We created a rubric. We each rated in five categories, cuteness, prize actor, plot, lesson and characters. Each movie could get up to 50 points. We ranked them all. I will say we have not updated it since 2022, so we have a few movies to catch up with, but our winner 49 out of 50 points was Inside Out.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. There we go. Wonderful. Esei, thank you so much.

Will Leitch: That was terrific.

Kousha Navidar: That was terrific.

Will Leitch: It was awesome.

Tim Grierson: Good Dinosaur is a good movie. That movie is underrated. I completely, completely agree. I think it is overlooked unfairly.

Kousha Navidar: Well, we have some calls for Good Dinosaur out there that people want to give a highlight to. Before we close, I just want to read some more of the text because they are coming in. As a mental health professional I have to always vote for Inside Out. We have another one for Big Hero 6. We have somebody who says, "How do you criticize Up? Ha-ha-ha." Then we have somebody who says, Up is number one not Toy Story.

Then, of course, most Pixar movies are about workers and employees. Monsters, Inc. is the most obvious. Toy Story, Inside Out, WALL-E, all about trouble on the job. I'm going to take that one to say Monsters, Inc. is really good just so that I can feel like I have a win there. Then, of course, we have another one that says, "Well, you should do this for Dreamworks movie." If you guys want to come up with another list, maybe we can have you back on, but we're going to have to pause it there. Thank you all so much for your calls. We've been here with Will Leitch, The New York Magazine contributing editor and Tim Grierson, the film critic. Inside Out 2 just came out. In a second we're going to talk to some of the folks behind that, but for now Will, Tim thank you so much for helping us make a sense of such good stories.

Tim Grierson: Thank you for having us.

Will Leitch: Absolutely. WALL-E forever.

[00:28:20] [END OF AUDIO]

 

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.