Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. The Beatles still can find their way onto the charts. Last month, Anthology 4 by The Beatles appeared on the Billboard charts. The album is an addition to the recent re-release of the original Anthology project. Anthology was a documentary series and album from the mid-'90s, featuring then contemporary interviews with George, Paul, and Ringo, and accompanied by a triple album full of studio outtakes, unreleased tracks, and live recordings.

Anthology reinvigorated Beatlemania for a new generation. In this new re-release, another episode has been added to the documentary, and a new album of studio gems with an updated mix. Let's listen to an example. This is If I Fell with a bit of studio intro from John.

John Lennon: Yes, we're on. We're on the air, folks. Come on. If I fell in love with you-- what?

[MUSIC - The Beatles: If I Fell (Take 11)]

The Beatles: If I fell in love with you

Would you promise to be true

And help me understand

Cause I've been in love before

And I found that love was more

Than just holding hands

If I give my heart to you

I must be sure

From the very start

That you would love me more than her

Alison Stewart: Contributing editor Rob Sheffield reviewed the album and film for Rolling Stone, calling it a superb new collection. He's here now to walk us through Anthology. Hey, Rob. Long time.

Rob Sheffield: Hello, Alison. How are you?

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well. Let's go back to the '90s, get in the time machine. What was the purpose of the Anthology project, and how did it come together?

Rob Sheffield: Well, the Anthology documentary was something that had been languishing for a couple of decades. It started in 1970 when The Beatles friend and retainer and roadie and all around confidant Neil Aspinall started that documentary and pulled it together, but the four ex Beatles were in no mood at all [chuckles] to work on a collaborative project about their past. They'd just broken up, and they were sick to death of each other.

It sat on the shelf for a couple decades until Paul, George, and Ringo, the surviving three Beatles, went back to it in the mid-'90s, early '90s, and decided to tell the story their way.

Alison Stewart: There have been so many books about The Beatles, films about The Beatles, documentaries about The Beatles, but none from the band itself. What did the band want to correct or put out there from their perspective?

Rob Sheffield: Well, as they put it, this was their perspective. As Ringo said, you've heard the story from everybody, so why not hear it from us? The essential thing about Anthology is it's three very different perspectives, that The Beatles are three very different people who have this shared history. It's really the story of their friendship, the story of how they began in Liverpool, the story of their loss of John Lenn, and how that friendship survived in its tattered and battered forms through the years.

Alison Stewart: Listeners, as we discuss Anthology, we want your opinion on this hotly-contested topic for what we call Small Stakes, Big Opinions. What's your favorite Beatles album and why? Our number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Or even if it's not your favorite, what is the best Beatles album and why? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. If you've listened to or watched the Anthology project, tell us your thoughts as well. 212-433-9692. My guest is Rolling Stone contributing editor Rob Sheffield. You wrote Anthology finally rescued The Beatles from the '60s. How so?

Rob Sheffield: Well, so much of The Beatles' story had been told over the years in this really nostalgic, this was something that magical that happened in the good old days sort of perspective, and that reflected a lot of the experience of people who were Beatles fans in the '70s. By the '90s, there was a whole new generation of Beatles fans who just did not remember the '60s and couldn't relate to that sense of nostalgia.

For me and my sisters, we grew up in the '70s, and to us, The Beatles were not a band that broke up and was part of the past. It was part of pop music here and now, as The Beatles have always been. They have never faded into the past. Anthology recognized The Beatles as an ongoing thing that the world was was still madly in love with. It really broke that nostalgic way of looking at The Beatles, and it captured The Beatles as something unique that keeps happening and that we keep experiencing as culture goes on.

Alison Stewart: Yes. How did it attract a new generation when it first came out?

Rob Sheffield: Well, it was really strange at that time to see all three Beatles in the same room. As we all know, it was very difficult when The Beatles broke up. As we saw in the excellent Get Back documentary, there was a lot of tension at the end of The Beatles. After they broke up in late 1969, the four Beatles were never in the same room again, and John Lennon was killed in 1980. There was no chance of ever of them having a creative reunion or a personal reunion.

The Beatles who were in Anthology were still creative artists who, for the most part, were still making new music and still in their careers and had gone their separate ways as adults, but still had that history in common. It was so immensely moving to see them look back on their memories together, to see them sitting on the grass. My favorite scenes are at George's estate where they're sitting on the lawn and they're strumming guitars and singing songs that they remember from the old days, songs that they grew up singing, songs they wrote together. For a few moments, they're just friends sitting on the grass in the sunshine.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to the listeners. This text says, "It has to be The White Album, a perfect work of art that also chronicles a band falling apart." Let's talk to Mike in Paramus, New Jersey. Hi, Mike. Thanks for making the time to call All Of It.

Mike: Hi, Alison. First-time caller, long-time listener.

Alison Stewart: All right.

Mike: My favorite Beatle album by far is Rubber Soul. I think Rubber Soul was the beginning of what I call the second Beatle awakening and creativity, which opened the door obviously to Revolver, and then the third awakening, Sgt. Pepper. By far, I think Rubber Soul opened up the floodgates by far.

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling in. Call again. Paul is calling us from Ridgewood, New Jersey. Hi, Paul. You're on the air.

Paul: Good afternoon. How are you?

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well.

Paul: I'm 73 and a huge Beatles fan, as are my grandsons, which is absolutely amazing. I worked in an Alexander's department store in the camera department, I guess it would be in the '60s, and we had an eight-track tape of Abbey Road that we played constantly. It was in the wrong order from the album to fit in the four stereo tracks on the tape, and I never, ever got tired of it. It is one of my Desert Island Discs, so I'll put that out there. That medley on side two, there's nothing close to it in what The Beatles have done, and they've done some amazing stuff, but that is Abbey Road. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Oh my God. A, that you worked in a Alexander's. That's incredible. [chuckles] Robin asked you to put this into perspective for us because we had two Beatles fans on the air. How big a deal is this release, this new full album of Beatles takes for fans right now?

Rob Sheffield: Well, it's really a treasure trove if you're a fan. It's so exciting to hear them work together, to hear them so playful. I love that version of If I Fell that you played before where you can hear they're just goofing around, they're playing, and then suddenly they lock into the song, and it's so emotional and strange. Such a beautiful and weird song. You can just hear that they go from being playful boys to just totally locking in on the story they're telling.

Alison Stewart: There's an extra new documentary episode added to this Anthology release. What will viewers see in this episode?

Rob Sheffield: It's so moving. It focuses on the early '90s when The Beatles were starting to make Anthology. After having told the whole story together of The Beatles from the beginning to the band's breakup, we see them in the '90s when they're just getting used to each other's company, getting used to sharing these memories together. You can see the tensions that they have, but you can also see the love and camaraderie that they have. It's really moving to watch, with lots of previously unseen footage.

Alison Stewart: Let's take another call. Danielle on the Upper West Side. Hi, Danielle. Thanks for calling All Of It. It's a-

Danielle: Hi there.

Alison Stewart: - Small Stakes, Big Opinions. What's your favorite record?

Danielle: Hi. Okay. Rubber Soul was my choice, and I wanted to mention that tomorrow night there's a John Lennon tribute concert at Town Hall. There are tickets still available. It's held every year, sort of memorializing him. There's great people who perform at it, and people should come on out because I know there is tickets, and they reduced the price and everything. It's a great, great show.

Alison Stewart: Yes. Thank you for remembering him as well. This is that time of year when everyone remembers John. This text says, "My first Beatles record was Rubber Soul, which is great. Everyone talks about Sgt. Pepper's, but I really liked Revolver the best. That's where the experimentation really took off with Tomorrow Never Knows." This one says, "Revolver, my top album, because every single track is a side a hit." That is Penny from Westchester.

My guest is Rolling Stone contributing editor Rob Sheffield. We're discussing the newly-expanded Beatles Anthology collection which Rob reviewed. We also want to hear from you in our Small Stakes, Big Opinions series. What's your favorite Beatles album and why? The number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Rob, in the year 2025, what new details can still be learned about The Beatles from listening to this new Anthology and watching the documentary?

Rob Sheffield: Well, it's the story of a friendship that's gone on for, at this point, 60 years. Paul and Ringo are still alive, but they still have their memories of the other two, and it's really beautiful to see that bond. Paul was on tour this fall, and he was beginning his show with the song Help, which was a Beatles song that he hadn't sung since he was in The Beatles. It's really moving to see Paul in his 80s going back to a song that his best friend wrote when they were both in their early 20s and still trying to figure this friend out and still trying to make sense of this friendship.

It's just a really unique and beautiful lifelong thing, and it really comes alive in Anthology.

Alison Stewart: This is an amazing text. "My mother smuggled a Beatles White album from West Germany to the Soviet Czech Republic in the 1970s. It's her favorite album to this day." That is a great text.

Rob Sheffield: I love that.

Alison Stewart: We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

[music]

Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. My guest is Rolling Stone contributing editor Rob Sheffield. We're discussing the newly-expanded Beatles Anthology collection which Rob reviewed. We also want to hear from you. It's our Small Stakes, Big Opinions series. What is your favorite Beatles Beatles album and why? The number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Rob, in your review of the Anthology 4 album, you write, "If you love The Beatles, you definitely want to hear this new Baby, You're a Rich Man."

Now, we're going to listen to it in just a minute, but why did this song catch your ear?

Rob Sheffield: It's so funny. I just love that it's 1967, The Beatles are absolutely on top of the world, and you hear them in the studio, [chuckles] and John and Paul are just making jokes just to crack each other up. They're just two friends. No matter how much the world idolizes them, they're still two friends who grew up together and just love just making the stupidest jokes together. John calls out to the roadie, Mal, and asks them to bring them some soda pop and refreshments, and Paul says, "Yes, and if you've got some cannabis." John says, "Yes, please, if you got some cannabis, bring it on in."

They're just two boys laughing together, and that's what it always comes down to. It's beautiful.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a listen.

[MUSIC - The Beatles: Baby, You're a Rich Man (Takes 11 and 12)]

John Lennon: All right, let's hear some rhythm and soul from London now, please. Come along.

The Beatles: How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?

Now that you know who you are

What do you want to be?

And have you traveled very far?

Far as the eye can see

How does it feel to be one of the beautiful people?

How often have you been there?

Often enough to know

What did you see when you were there?

Nothing that doesn't show

Baby, you're a rich man

Baby, you're a rich man

Baby, you're a rich man too

You keep all your money in a big brown bag inside a zoo

What a thing to do

Baby, you're a rich man

Baby, you're a rich man

Alison Stewart: Let's go to John, who's calling in from Montgomery. Hey, John. Thanks for calling All Of It.

John: Hi.

Alison Stewart: Hi.

John: Good to talk to you.

Alison Stewart: Sure.

John: Well, I'll tell you a little bit of my story. I graduated from high school in '62, and that was still in the end of the doo-wop era. Then, there was The Beach Boys, and then all of a sudden, The Beatles burst onto the scene. I bought my first album. I'm not even sure if it was Meet The Beatles!, but I still have it, along with every other album on vinyl. Each album broke the mold from the kind of music that preceded it. I just can't come up with a favorite because each one was so magical, brilliant. I still believe they were geniuses. I was very slow to try out cannabis, by the way, but it's all their fault.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: John, thanks for the call. Let's talk to Mike, who's calling in from Brooklyn. Hey, Mike. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Mike: Hey. How are you? Easily, easily my favorite Beatles album is The White Album just because it seems as if they sort of broke through-- because I think they went to India to get that album together, and especially The White Album because of John Lennon's song, when he sings about his mother, his mother who died, Julia. That's the reason why, for me, The White Album is easily the best album The Beatles ever made. That and the continuing thing of Bungalow Bill, "Hey, Bungalow--" I like that too.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Thanks for calling in. Did you want to respond, Rob?

Rob Sheffield: Oh, wow. He is so 100% right about Julia. That is one of the absolute most beautiful moments of John Lennon's career or anything any of The Beatles did. What a song.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Sally, who is calling from the Upper West Side. Hi, Sally. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Sally: Well, I'm one of your older listeners. I'm in my 80s. I have a much younger brother who would come up to New York, and we felt he was too young to go to concerts by himself. I went to a lot of rock concerts, and I could not understand why in the world he thought this was good music, but Sgt. Pepper made me a fan. I think a lot of us from the classical tradition suddenly realized that these were great musicians. I still listen to it over and over.

Now that I've heard this program, I'm going to hear some of these other recommendations because my brother has all of them, and he'll send me copies. Sgt. Pepper, Lucy in the Sky With Diamonds is just perfect, along with many of the others.

Alison Stewart: Thanks so much for giving us a call, Sally. Rob, Giles Martin is one of the brains behind The Beatles re-releases. He's the son of the original Beatles producer, George Martin, and he improved the quality of the recordings. He used what is called a demixing technology. What does it mean to demix a song? How does that work?

Rob Sheffield: Well, it was devised by Peter Jackson and his Wingnut Films team for the Get Back anthology in 2021. The Get Back anthology was such a revelation because those were such muddy recordings, and it involves going in and isolating the individual elements of the sound. There was this famous conversation that nobody could hear that John and Paul had in a coffee shop because there was too much noise around it, and they were able to isolate all the different elements in the sound. They were able to go and find John and Paul's voices with a microphone hidden in a flower pot on the table in the cafeteria.

It was really amazing. The world could hear this conversation for the first time, and Giles does that with the audio in the new Anthology. In the live recordings of The Beatles, which were drowned out by screams at the time, he went in and demixed the sound so that we can now hear all the individual instruments and voices in a performance like The Beatles at Shea Stadium. We're really hearing that clearly for the first time ever.

Alison Stewart: In your review you wrote that you like-- [laughs] This is so funny. You write that George is "a master of bitchy one liners".

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Tell us a little bit about snarky George.

Rob Sheffield: Oh, I love snarky George. He is so funny and so mean. There's the great scene in Get Back where Paul has brought in the new song I've Got a Feeling. He's playing it, and John is singing along, "I've got a feeling," and it repeats the chorus, I've got a feeling. You just hear George say, "So is this one called I've Got a Feeling?" There's a lot of that in the new one.

There's a great scene in the new episode nine, never seen before from the new Anthology episode, where George and Ringo are making fun of Paul for always hustling them into the studio and making them work so hard. George says, "You'd run out of beauty competitions to judge," and Paul is really defensive. It's really funny when he says, "Look, I liked being in The Beatles. I liked making music with The Beatles. I'm not ashamed of that." It's just funny how with their very different personalities, that they're able to have fun making fun of each other.

Alison Stewart: This is a funny text. It says, "In the '70s, I was the manager of a record store in Scottsdale, Arizona. I will never forget the day a quartet of young teen girls about 16 came in and were flipping through the albums. They got to The Beatles section, and one of them pulled out one of the LPS and asked her friends with absolute incredulity, "Paul McCartney was in a band before Wings?"

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Dale from Connecticut. Hey, Dale. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Dale: Thank you. Thank you. I'm an older listener, like Sally. I'm in my late 70s, and I heard The Beatles living in southern Spain as a teenager [chuckles] on Spanish albums,-

Alison Stewart: Oh wow.

Dale: - probably the first one that came out, and immediately fell in love. Really, for me, it's the way the music was mixed, and he was just speaking about this, because so much of rock and roll, the voices became percussion with a tune, but with The Beatles, it was always the stories. As they matured as writers, it just got better and better. Sgt. Pepper and Strawberry Fields, I'm tied between those two, that were the writing and the stories and the emotions you hear, like Bob Dylan, when he went metal, you still heard him because the music was mixed properly, so the voices were on top.

Then, much later, I worked as a-- I've been working as a bartender most of my life, and I worked at the famous old Hotel Bel Air. I would leave George and Harry Nielsen sitting at the piano, the baby grand in the middle of the bar, shut the bar and lock the door. It was a hotel, and the off-duty LAPD detectives would keep an eye on him.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Wow. Wow. Thank you for calling, by the way. Michelle from Washington Heights. Let's get you in here, Michelle.

Michelle: Hi. Can you hear me?

Alison Stewart: Yes, you're on the air.

Michelle: Oh, great. Hi. My name is Michelle, so obviously I have a connection to the song. My parents were huge Beatles fans, and they named me after the song Michelle. I don't know what age I was, maybe one or two, when they gave me the album as a gift. I was young. I had it as far back as I can remember. When I was little, I had a Mickey Mouse plastic record player, and I played the Rubber Soul album constantly. My favorite song as a child was Norwegian Wood, even though Michelle was on the album.

I now have a music student, 17-year-old, she's a composer, and she loves The Beatles. It's just going from generation to generation, which is amazing.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much for calling in. Rob, I want to get one more question in for you. Anthology 4 debuted in the top 10 of five different [chuckles] Billboard charts. What do you think that says about the role of Beatles in contemporary music?

Rob Sheffield: It's amazing. The Beatles are always part of our lives, always part of our dream lives. It's wild that for so many years, people thought that The Beatles would be forgotten, that they would fade away into the story of the past, and it just never happens. I love all the people telling stories about their children and students and grandchildren who are crazy about The Beatles. I have the same experience with my nieces and nephews. It's something that just isn't stuck in the past. It's not something that happened long ago. The Beatles just made something permanent that still touches our hearts.

Alison Stewart: My guest has been Rolling Stone contributing editor Rob Sheffield. Rob, thanks for joining us. We really appreciate you being a voice for The Beatles.

Rob Sheffield: Thank you so much.