Alison: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. In an exhibit titled Blacklisted: An American Story, the American government targeted the film industry in 1947, accusing some of the country's most talented actors, directors, and writers of being communists or communist sympathizers. Anyone who didn't cooperate would find that the doors of Hollywood were closed to them. Recently, Good Night, and Good Luck on Broadway tackled these same issues, and in fact, the New York theater was proven to be a haven for those targeted.

The exhibit features photographs, objects, paintings, and films. You'll learn how the FBI started reviewing films for communist messaging. One poster shows that It's a Wonderful Life was found to "represent a rather obvious attempt to discredit bankers." The exhibit makes the point that what was in the past is not always over, and it asks, "What does this time teach us about today, and what warning should we heed?" Anne Lessy is a curator of history exhibitions at the New York Historical, and she joins me now to discuss. Hi, Anne.

Anne: Hi. Thank you so much for having me.

Alison: Before we start, I just want to tell our listeners, I did not misspeak. It's the New York Historical is the new name of the institution formerly known as the New York Historical Society.

Anne: That's correct.

Alison: Congratulations on the new name.

Anne: Thank you.

Alison: Why is it important to revisit this chapter in American history?

Anne: I think this show is such an important opportunity to get to explore a very challenging and often painful moment in American history. This is in the direct aftermath of World War II. Many in the film industry had been working with the War Department to create films that would really support the mobilization and support for the war. The tide really turned very quickly, and many who had been so involved in that patriotic effort suddenly found themselves scrutinized for their personal political beliefs and associations.

Alison: The exhibit starts in 1929, the stock market crash.

Anne: Yes, we do briefly talk about the First Red Scare, Emma Goldman's deportment for being an immigrant activist, and just establishing the history of Red Scares. We look at the Great Depression and how this economic crisis motivated some people to look for new solutions to solve economic and political problems.

Alison: All right. I'm going to ask you to do a little history lesson for us. Tell us about the origins of the House Un-American Activities Committee, HUAC.

Anne: [laughs] You did great. There was an earlier iteration before the war, and it actually did target the Federal Theater Project, and was very suspicious that alleged communists were involved in this federal arts program. Then it's work paused as everyone focused on the war effort. Then in 1947, it was revived with this particular mission of looking for communist propaganda in Hollywood film.

Alison: Communist propaganda? What did that mean?

Anne: [laughs] I think that's a great question. There was never really any evidence presented of subversive messages embedded within Hollywood films. What it became instead was delving into people's past and present political allegiances, who they associated with, and their personal political beliefs.

Alison: What was the fear? What was HUAC trying to get out of people?

Anne: I think that's a great question. Some believe that it was an opportunity to elevate themselves as politicians. This was a very popular story covered breathlessly by the press and radio, and eventually television. This was a period where the Cold War was ramping up, and there were a lot of fears of growing Soviet power around the globe. For many, it was also a chance to reassert a more conservative vision for the country. They were suspicious of New Deal programs, and the upheaval of both the Great Depression and the World War II.

Alison: Was it in a case of them weaponizing patriotism for the country?

Anne: I think that's an excellent way to describe it. Really, it was a contest between who was being the patriotic American? Was it those who resisted these invasive questions and fought for their First and Fifth Amendment rights, or was it the committee members who were investigating possible communist ties?

Alison: We're talking about the exhibit, Blacklisted: An American Story. It's about how the government targeted actors and artists based on their alleged subversive political views. It's on display at the New York Historical now through October 19th. Why was the film industry and artistic expression at large, why was it so important to HUAC?

Anne: I think that's a great question. I do think, once again, the power of film became clear during World War II. The way that the government harnessed it to promote the war effort, I think, made people more aware of this mass entertainment and its power and how it connected with audiences. I think some people feel that the visibility of successful Jewish Americans also made it a target. There were avowed segregationists and antisemites on the committee, and so their racist and antisemitic viewpoints may have also informed it. There had also been a lot of labor unrest in the film industry during the 1940s, and that may have also made it a target.

Alison: Were other fields in their view, music, literature, in HUAC's view?

Anne: Yes. They didn't get the same industry-wide scrutiny, but eventually, television and radio would also adopt blacklists. You would see in the larger Red Scare, authors being targeted, such as Langston Hughes, with evidence such as a poem, as being allegedly subversive. There were also labor unions were placed under scrutiny. A number of organizations were blacklisted out of existence, particularly that dealt with peace, antifascism, racial justice.

Alison: How did it work? How did HUAC work? What happened? Did you get a call? Did you get a letter? How did it work?

Anne: You got a subpoena from Congress, and one of the things that we try to walk through in the show is how different this is from a trial. You don't have the opportunity to cross-examine your accusers, you don't have the opportunity to review evidence, and really, there's such an uneven platform. Most of the witnesses that they deemed unfriendly or accused of being communist sympathizers weren't even allowed to read their statements, whereas witnesses who were supportive of HUAC's mission were allowed to speak at length.

Alison: Was there much resistance within the government, HUAC, at the time?

Anne: I think that that's an excellent question. I think that, initially, President Truman did seek to push back some of the more conservative changes and proposals coming out of the Congress. I think, ultimately, the anticommunist fervor gained so much power that it really started to overwhelm both politics and culture in the 1950s.

Alison: I'm getting a message here that says the chair of HUAC was, for a while, a Republican congressman from New Jersey?

Anne: Yes.

Alison: J Parnell Thomas?

Anne: Yes.

Alison: Tell me about him.

Anne: The most interesting thing is he determined that he would revive HUAC, that he would make the film industry its target. He did not last long because he was found to have engaged in financial misconduct, and ironically, ended up at the same prison as some of the Hollywood Ten who would be incarcerated for refusing to answer his questions.

Alison: You brought me to my next question.

Anne: [laughs]

Alison: Tell me about who the Hollywood Ten were.

Anne: This was a group of 10, primarily screenwriters and a director. They had the misfortune of being part of the group of 19 that were initially subpoenaed, and a number of them, really just, in some ways, bad luck were ended up being the first speakers. They were really committed to refusing to answer the questions about their political affiliations. They did not want to answer, "Are you now, or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?" They didn't want to answer the question about guild or union membership. They had all prepared statements to try to express their belief and patriotism, their belief in rights and protections, and many were silenced and not permitted to read their statements.

Alison: There's a great picture of the 10 of them headed up the stairs.

Anne: Yes. There's a number of incredible images, but that one is very powerful. They were held in contempt of Congress. They made appeals through the judicial system. There was a composition change at the Supreme Court. By the time their appeal had reached the Supreme Court in 1950, the composition had changed, and the Supreme Court declined to hear their appeal. Their conviction was upheld, and they were sentenced to up to one year in prison, and they had already been publicly fired by the film industry.

Alison: Tell me about the Waldorf Conference and how that relates to the Hollywood Ten. Y

Anne: About a month after the initial hearing, there was a secret convening at the Waldorf Astoria Hotel, primarily of studio heads in the film industry, and many had more liberal backgrounds, even in their own testimony, had really stressed that they weren't interested in prying into people's personal lives. They cared about the end result, the product. There was also concern that any adoption of a blacklist would be against the law because it would be industry-wide, and you'd have different companies colluding. In the end, they decided to voluntarily adopt a blacklist, saying that their mission was to protect the film industry and keep the business thriving.

Alison: Why did they capitulate so easily?

Anne: That's an excellent question. There are some figures who were involved, who had been friends with and worked with the Hollywood Ten, but I think they felt the political and cultural pressure. The newspapers were relentlessly poring over this story. I think they hoped it would ease and calm the Red Scare, and instead, it probably fanned the flames.

Alison: How did blacklisting affect the kind of stories that were told in film?

Anne: I think that's an important question. Many of the films, as you referenced, the FBI started reviewing films and writing reports. There was a real discouragement against social dramas that explored social problems, so issues such as antisemitism, for example, Gentleman's Agreement or Crossfire, film noir. There's another John Garfield film called Pride of the Marines that was criticized because it showed and depicted the struggles of veterans trying to readapt to civilian life after the war. These were seen as unpatriotic and was very much discouraged.

Alison: You had different people reviewing the films. Who were the people who were viewing the films for communist behavior or antipatriotic behavior?

Anne: You had the committee staff and members going through materials, you had the FBI doing many investigations and providing information to the committee. Then you also had other groups coming into the lives of creatives and artists who were part of the film industry. The veterans organization, the American Legion, was very active and published its own lists. Many people will be familiar with Red Channels, which was compiled by retired FBI agents and listed in-depth any possible communist tie by many creatives, and it would include things like your newspaper subscriptions, any single event you may have attended that championed peace.

Alison: Did the blacklisting just impact the Hollywood industry, or did it bleed out into other causes?

Anne: It definitely bleeded out into other causes. Certainly, the federal government faced a purge during this time. We saw labor unions also are forced to purge communist members and sign affidavits. There are also a series of organizations, such as the Civil Rights Congress, that worked on racial justice and veterans group that were scrutinized and really blacklisted out of existence, because once you had been tagged a subversive organization, it was incredibly hard to move forward, and people were very frightened of the potential consequences of being labeled a communist.

Alison: What are some of the films that people might think of that were really affected by HUAC, and about them going after the Hollywood and the blacklist?

Anne: That's a great question. I guess for me, I think about one of my personal favorite films, Roman Holiday. It was written by one of the Hollywood Ten, Dalton Trumbo, but after he had served his time in federal prison in Kentucky, and he had to write it under a pseudonym. He asked a friend to serve as a front. He wrote the script but couldn't get credit for it, couldn't be paid at his previous rate, and it took decades to get that actually corrected. You had to work in secret and forego any recognition of your work.

Alison: It won the Oscar, right?

Anne: Yes, it did. It really took a campaign decades later. Four decades after the release of the film, he was finally recognized as the writer.

Alison: We're talking about the exhibit, Blacklisted: An American Story. It's on view at the New York Historical. I'm talking to Anne Lessy, assistant curator of history exhibitions. Let's talk about theater. Broadway and theater, they never adopted a formal blacklist. Why did they chart a different path than the film industry?

Anne: I think that's an important question. It seemed as if in the post-World War II era, the government was less interested in theater because it wasn't a mass entertainment. There also were no corporate sponsors that they needed to placate. We see that the New York theater community and Broadway became an important space where you could produce critique and social commentary about the Red Scare.

Perhaps most notably, Arthur Miller's The Crucible is seen as an important commentary comparing the 1950s Red Scare to the Salem witch trials. Also, working actors who couldn't hide under a front or a pseudonym developed theatrical projects. Some would perform for the Union Theater 1199 or other sympathetic, smaller audiences just to try to keep making ends meet, but also to stay creative.

Alison: Did actors leave Hollywood for New York?

Anne: Yes, many did. Many had New York ties. Many were from New York, so it was a return, but they were shut out of not only the film industry at that point, but also radio and television.

Alison: How did the blacklist end, and when did the studio start to back away from it?

Anne: There's no moment where it definitively ends. We look at a few different moments where its cultural power is punctured. Many people point to the 1960 release of Spartacus. Dalton Trumbo had written that film. Kirk Douglas was the star, and his production company produced the film. He insisted that Dalton Trumbo be recognized for his work. It was such a popular and critical success. Even the following year, John F. Kennedy crossed an American Legion picket line to see the film. That also helped to break the blacklist. You saw, over the course of the 1960s, some being able to return to the entertainment industry, but some, of course, never had that opportunity and really barely survived the Red Scare.

Alison: Did the government ever officially acknowledge or apologize the damage done to blacklisted individuals?

Anne: No. I think that it's important to realize that a figure such as young Richard Nixon, when he was a member of Congress, was on HUAC. In six short years, he became a US senator and then vice president, and as we know, later became president. Ronald Reagan was president of the Screen Actors Guild and was seen as very sympathetic to the anti-communist campaign. Obviously, he went on to have a very successful political career.

Alison: What long-term impact did the blacklist have on Hollywood and its relationship with the government?

Anne: I think that's a great question. I think that we see that the impulse is that Hollywood would rather self-regulate rather than wait for the government interference, but it will respond to popular and political pressure. I think that there was a great discomfort with addressing social dramas. You see film noir start to fade. Some of this is taste changing, but it's also, I think, an effect of the blacklist as well. The ways that certain kinds of progressive liberal left coalitions and political activity was really put to bed, that people were afraid of joining in loose coalitions and aligning with anyone who might be tagged a communist.

Alison: I want to ask you about the exhibit a little bit. What's an artifact in the exhibit that you really believe is powerful?

Anne: We developed for our show a map about the reach of the Red Scare that captures a nationwide map that details local and state and regional hearings. It was important for us to recognize that ordinary people with no celebrity, no ties to Hollywood, were also impacted. I will say we also have a beautiful costume of Lauren Bacall. It's a costume she wore in How to Marry a Millionaire, the film she made with Marilyn Monroe.

She's someone who initially had really wanted to defend the First Amendment, formed a committee with other members of Hollywood, but they really backed down once the Blacklist is adopted and retreated from those positions, wrote publications. Her husband, Humphrey Bogart, wrote in Photoplay magazine, "I'm no communist." We see how quickly the ground shifted, and potential allies felt they had to retreat and retract.

Alison: Something I did want to mention, and I should have mentioned earlier, was how did the Lavender Scare, how is that factored into the blacklist?

Anne: Around 1953, President Eisenhower announced a purge of gay and lesbian individuals from the federal government. I think that this is an example of how Red Scares they keep having to produce more enemies within, whether it's communists in the film industry, gays and lesbian individuals, and federal workers, that there keeps being new enemies that have to be investigated, and it has really opened the gateway to very invasive intrusions and investigations and surveillance of your personal life, your personal relationships, your own ideas and associations.

Alison: It's interesting because the word communist is being tossed around a lot today. This is Donald Trump last year on the campaign trail.

Donald Trump: I think that we're hitting a nerve. I think this is a different kind of a race. All we have to do is define our opponent as being a communist or a socialist or somebody that's going to destroy our country.

Alison: When you hear politicians, any politician, calling people communists today, what does that bring up for you as a historian?

Anne: I think it's so important to engage in critical thinking about, how do we treat political dissent? If you hold an unpopular position, should you be punished? Are you banned from your chosen profession? What kind of consequences should you face? I think that, honestly, it's always important to be thinking about our democracy, how to make sure it's healthy and robust, and also how can we collectively best protect our freedoms and rights.

Alison: What's your favorite thing in this show, which you'd like people to spend a few more minutes looking at?

Anne: I would say there is a beautiful pamphlet created from 1947 by the Civil Rights Congress, and it's called Thought Police. We use one of the images as our signature images. It shows police officers who are covering ears, eyes, and mouth of individuals. I think that really captures that idea of policing thought.

Alison: The name of the exhibit is Blacklisted: An American Story. It's on display at the New York Historical now through October 19th. My guest has been Anne Lessy, assistant curator of history exhibitions at the New York Historical. Thank you so much for coming in.

Anne: Thank you so much for having me.

Alison: Coming up on Monday's show, the upcoming season of the New York Times podcast, The Retrievals, continues. It's look at women's pain. C-sections are one of the most frequently performed major surgeries in the world. Why do so many women feel pain during them? Host Susan Burton joins us for a preview. That is All Of It.

All Of It is produced by Andrea Duncan-Mao, Kate Hinds, Jordan Lauf, Simon Close, L. Malik Anderson, Luke Green, and Pilar Belendez-DeSha. Megan Ryan is the head of live radio. Our engineer is Juliana Fonda. We had help this week from Shayna Sengstock. Our interns are Francesca Bossi and Sam Schmea. Luscious Jackson does our music. I'm Alison Stewart. I appreciate you listening, and I appreciate you. I'll meet you back here next time.