Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC Studios in SoHo. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here. On today's show, Sam Tutty and Christiani Pitts are the stars of the Broadway musical Two Strangers (Carry a Cake Across New York), and they will perform live in WNYC Studio 5. Plus, we'll continue our conversation with Oscar-nominated creatives who work behind the camera. Today, we'll speak with Autumn Durald Arkapaw, the cinematographer from Sinners. That's our plan. Let's get this started with the new film, Undercard.

[music]

Alison Stewart: Actor and comedian Wanda Sykes makes her dramatic debut in a new film called Undercard. She plays Cheryl 'No Mercy' Stewart, a former boxing champion and recovering alcoholic who is seeking redemption by training the son she wants abandoned. Set in the historic northwest Miami neighborhood, Liberty City, Cheryl coaches at Baba T's Boxing Gym, and she does her best to care for her young daughter. She's struggling, though, to make ends meet. After an eviction sets her back, she faces difficult choices in order to keep her daughter out of the foster care system.

That includes coaching her 22-year-old son, Keith, a fighter with a promising career, but who still resents her and her past life. Undercard has been on the festival circuit and won several awards, including Best Narrative Feature. It is now being released in theaters this Friday. Actor and comedian Wanda Sykes is here with me to discuss. Hey, Wanda.

Wanda Sykes: Hello.

Alison Stewart: Hello.

Tamika Miller: How are you, Alison?

Alison Stewart: I'm doing well. Also joining us is co-screenwriter and filmmaker Tamika Miller. Tamika, it's nice to meet you as well.

Tamika Miller: Nice to meet you. Thank you for having us.

Alison Stewart: Tamika, you've described working on this film, Undercard, as a labor of love for over a decade.

Tamika Miller: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Let's roll back 10 years. What was the original idea?

Tamika Miller: Well, what we produce is the original idea.

Alison Stewart: Oh, great.

Tamika Miller: Wanda said yes from the beginning, all those years ago, and I'm grateful for that. I always had Wanda in mind for this role. Even though she had not done drama before, I'd been a fan of Wanda for many years as a comedian, but I also was drawn to the fact that Wanda was a woman in the male-dominated field of comedy, and she had been slaying it for two decades at that point. It was that kind of vulnerability and fearlessness that I wanted in this role of Cheryl.

Alison Stewart: Wanda, what caught you in the script? What caught your attention and made you say yes to this project?

Wanda Sykes: It was well written. I loved the story. It was a bit daunting because, like Tamika said, I never played a drama before, and then to be number one on the call sheet doing it, I'm like, "Oh, boy." There was some hesitation. I even asked Tamika if Queen Latifah turned her down, and that's why it came to me. After meeting Tamika and having several conversations about it, I felt like I would be taken care of. I was like, "You know what, she's not going to put me out there and make me look bad or whatever." It was just the comfortability and her being so tenacious with, "Come on, you can do it." It just made me go, "You know what, let's go for it." Then it took us 10 years to get it done. [laughs]

Alison Stewart: Tamika, this could be called-- it could be called a sports movie, it could be called a boxing movie. It could be a family drama. Why did you feel like a sports drama-- we'll call it a sports drama, felt like the right vehicle to tell this more subtle story about an estranged mother and son?

Tamika Miller: Well, as a writer-- I'm a director/writer. As a writer, I love to tell stories where women, particularly women of color, are at the center of those stories as multi-dimensional and multi-layered characters. There was a time in my life where I was a little obsessed with boxing as a workout. I was really spending a lot of time in a boxing joint, if you will, that this story was born. I had not seen yet on film this particular story, about a woman boxing trainer training a man. Boxing is the backdrop, but what's most important to me are these relationships and the idiosyncrasies that we tend to have and share in these one-on-one personal relationships.

It was important to me that this mother-son themes, mother-daughter theme, this trainer-fighter theme rang true and was really at the forefront. I just thought, "Use boxing as the backdrop."

Alison Stewart: Wanda, what's going on when we meet Cheryl 'No Mercy' Stewart? What's going on in her life?

Wanda Sykes: Oh, wow. She's trying to be a good mom. She's trying to provide for not just herself, but for her daughter, and she's trying to stay sober, and she's working on this. She's doing the steps, and a lot of the steps, part of it is making amends. She's also trying to do that with her son, Keith.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting, Tamika, what you saying earlier is about moms and their kids. They're like you're training your kids for the fight of their life. Even though you love them, but you are trying to train them, right?

Tamika Miller: Of course, of course. We see in Undercard, Cheryl has this sort of second chance with her daughter, Meka, that she didn't have fully with her son, Keith. She's really trying to reclaim her family, and she really wants a second chance with her son. Boxing is something Cheryl knows in and out, having been a former champion, and it's a way in, if you will, to her son.

Alison Stewart: We're talking to actor and comedian Wanda Sykes, about starring as a former boxing champion and recovering alcoholic who helps her estranged son get his boxing career back on track. Sykes joins me alongside Director Tamika Miller. They are here with me now to discuss their new film, Undercard, which enters theaters this Friday, February 27th. Wanda, how much did you know about boxing?

Wanda Sykes: I've been a fan of boxing since I was a kid. I remember listening to-- Back then, it was Cassius Clay, Muhammad Ali fights on the radio, so I've always loved boxing. Then I grew up in the DMV area, so everything was about Sugar Ray Leonard from the Olympics. I just love the sport. After meeting with Tamika, and I said, "Okay, I'm going to do it," the first thing she said was, "Okay, meet me at Wild Card." I had to go meet her at a very popular boxing gym in LA. She threw me in the ring, day one.

Alison Stewart: Girl, get in the ring. We're going.

Wanda Sykes: There was no deal. There was nothing. I just had to get comfortable being in that space, and I stayed with it, and I found a trainer, Cameron, and we worked out. I had to learn how to hold the mitts. Because a big part of it is I had to be comfortable in that space. I didn't want to think about lines and acting and not be-- I have to be also thinking about the environment. The environment had to be like a second skin for me. I loved it so much that I'm still doing it. I'm still working out and boxing. That's my workout now.

Alison Stewart: Tamika, what is a technical element about the sport that surprised you that maybe you wouldn't have known before making this movie?

Tamika Miller: Well, I had a lot of experience because I was working out. I was boxing. I wasn't getting hit. [chuckles] I had my own trainer at Wild Card Boxing Gym. I would go several times a week and do 10 rounds of a mid-workout. I, like Wanda, I also watch boxing, and so I understood the spirit. I was able to write the boxing sequences because I know boxing so well. I know the combinations. I didn't come to the script, or I didn't write the script with boxing being foreign to me. It was something that I knew something about. Again, more importantly, it was really about these characters and these themes that was really at the forefront for me.

Boxing was really sort of secondary, but a powerful secondary. Powerful character in itself that I could tell this story through.

Alison Stewart: There's also some Liberty City history included in the film.

Tamika Miller: Yes.

Alison Stewart: For example, when she takes her son to the train near the ruins of an old hotel. Let's take a listen. This is from Undercard.

Wanda Sykes: I mean, yes, it's a ruin now, but back then, this was the best Black hotel in all of Florida. Ali was good enough to fight Miami Beach, but he wasn't good enough to stay there at night. He and Aretha Franklin, Etta James, Sammy Davis Jr. Stayed here. Joe Louis, too.

Keith: Damn. All them legends?

Wanda Sykes: Oh, boxing royalty been through Liberty City, right where you standing.

Alison Stewart: Tamika, why was it important to include aspects of the history of the location in this film?

Tamika Miller: It was very important. What many people don't know is what that setting was. What that location was really about is the historic Hampton House. Back in the 1950s and '60s, when there was Jim Crow and segregation, Black celebrities and activists and icons, from Martin Luther King Jr., to Muhammad Ali, to Nat King Cole, they could go and speak and perform on Miami Beach, but they couldn't actually stay there. They would venture back to Liberty City, predominantly Black neighborhood, and stay at the famous Hampton House. That was my homage to that historic place.

Alison Stewart: Wanda, how long did the shoot take?

Wanda Sykes: Was it 20 days?

Tamika Miller: Less than 30 days.

Wanda Sykes: Yes, less than 30 days. We were moving, and our crew was incredible. [chuckles] I think it was after the first day and they saw, like, "Oh, okay. We're really doing this." Everybody was just moving. It was great.

Alison Stewart: Wanda, what did you like about independent filmmaking? Making films quickly.

Wanda Sykes: It wasn't a lot of sitting around waiting. When you know you're on a tight schedule and a tight budget, there's no room for being divas or attitudes or anything. Everybody was just really, I think, complementary to each other and just getting it done. I love all the female energy on set with Tamika at the lead and our cinematographer, Ana, who just set up just some incredibly beautiful shots, and the rest of the cast. Everyone was so supportive, and I felt like they were just cheering me on whatever I needed for a scene or whatever. We all wanted this-- We knew we had something special, and we all wanted it to be the best it could be.

Alison Stewart: Tamika, what do you get creatively about shooting in the independent style?

Tamika Miller: Well, shooting an independent film you don't have major studio monies, [chuckles] but this is a story that I co-wrote. My writing partner, Anita Cal, and I really worked hard on writing a story, a script that was authentic. The process of independent filmmaking is you get down and dirty you. It's really a labor of love. This film has been and is, and I was very passionate about it. I knew and know that it would resonate with people. I think everyone can see themselves somewhere in this film. Everyone. That's motivation, that's determination.

I also love being able to empower people. Wanda mentioned our cinematographer, Ana Amortegui, who is brilliant. She is a Latina woman. Having all these incredibly talented women, my production designer, woman, my costume designer, woman, my producers, women, is very, very powerful. It definitely, I think, makes a difference in how a set is run, particularly on an independent film.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with Actor Wanda Sykes and Director Tamika Miller about their new film, Undercard. We'll have more after a quick break. This is All Of It.

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Alison Stewart: You are listening to All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. We're talking to actor and comedian Wanda Sykes. It's her dramatic debut, starring as a former boxing champion and recovering alcoholic who helps her estranged son get his boxing career back on track. Sykes has joining me alongside Tamika Miller. They are here with me now to discuss their new film, Undercard, which enters theaters this Friday, February 27th. Wanda, there is not a person who will not say, "Wanda Sykes isn't funny." You are so funny. You drop some truth bombs when you're funny. [chuckles] When you're thinking about drama and comedy, what do they have in common and what differentiates them?

Wanda Sykes: I think comedy-- Well, the comedy that I enjoy doing and the comedy, I think, that resonates is when it's grounded in some reality. I think the comedy part is the joke, is the twist. Comedy is drama, but with the twist. I felt like, first reading the script, I was like, "Oh, I got a twist." It's like, "No, we're not doing that. We're not making this a comedy. It's a drama." It was really just staying in the straight lines, I guess, the setup. That's what it is. Drama is set up when the comedy is the punchline.

Alison Stewart: Tamika, Cheryl's ring persona is Cheryl 'No Mercy' Stewart. Where does 'No Mercy' come from?

Tamika Miller: No Mercy was when Cheryl was a champion; that was her nickname. She was really trying to come up out of her circumstances in Liberty City, and she was merciless. She was really determined. She got the nickname 'No Mercy' because she was so dominant in the ring as a boxer. That's where it sprang from on the page. Then, Wanda, you have something to add to that as well, correct?

Wanda Sykes: Well, as far as the 'No Mercy'?

Tamika Miller: Yes.

Wanda Sykes: Yes. The women-- Okay.

[laughter]

Wanda Sykes: I totally forgot that-

Tamika Miller: You were talking the eloquent-- To answer your question, now, that's really where it was born from. Just who Cheryl was as a boxer. Just relentless and determined to win and to fight. She had many battles she was facing in her life, outside the ring as well as inside the ring.

Alison Stewart: She has that big old tattoo on her shoulder, says, "No Mercy." Cheryl, she experiences historic making career, Wanda. It earns her a certain level of respect in the neighborhood, yet she's estranged from her son, Keith. What finally makes her willing to try again?

Wanda Sykes: I think it's just necessity, and it's also part of her character. She's relentless, and that's what you have to be as a boxer. I think that's a trait that just stayed with her. She doesn't give up. Now, she might slip in the sobriety part. I think that's how she falls, but she gets up and goes right back at it.

Alison Stewart: It was so hard. It's so hard at the beginning when she gets the joint. You're like, "Throw it away. Don't keep it. No, don't keep it."

[laughter]

Tamika Miller: That was, I think, most people's reaction. [chuckles]

Alison Stewart: Making amends is also a big part of Cheryl's recovery, and she has to own her own mistakes. Wanda, can you talk about the decisions you made as an actor, how to respond to Keith as he confronted Cheryl about her own shortcomings?

Wanda Sykes: I think it was she didn't feel like that-- she didn't deserve it. I put that way. Like, everything he said, she just had to accept. Like, "You know what, I have no defense, and I don't have any comeback, and I'm not going to make any excuses for it." I think in our nature, it's hard to be accountable and just say, "Yes, I did that," because I know deep down we're always always thinking, "Well, it's because of this is why I did that." There's always an excuse. I think that was a moment where she just had to say, "No, there's no excuses. Let him have his peace. Let him say what he needs to say," and her try to absorb it.

Alison Stewart: Tamika, it's interesting, and I think it's well done in the film that Cheryl's recovery isn't shown as just simple, straightforward process. How intentional was this on your part, and how did it show how others are affected directly by her actions?

Tamika Miller: Well, it was very intentional. I spoke to several people who are sober, who are in recovery, who are alcoholics, but who've been sober for 20 years and still go to AA meetings and still are present and there for other people who are maybe newer to sobriety. What is true is that life happens. Things happen, things that are beyond our control. When someone who is sober suddenly finds themselves in a place that has them slip, that is the worst. What I learned from my research was that that is the worst possible feeling someone can have. Just the slipping is a betrayal to themselves.

It was important to me that in the storytelling that I stay true to a lot of people's experience. I think it really hit home for a lot of people as a result.

Alison Stewart: We're talking to actor Wanda Sykes and director Tamika Miller. Their new film, Undercard, enters theaters this Friday, February 27th. I want to talk about acting and directing. Wanda, tell me something that Tamika did as a director that helped you on the set every day.

Wanda Sykes: Ooh. Well, I'll just say before we even got to set, I had shows in-- I think it was Palm Desert. Tamika was like, "I'm going to come to the show, but I also want you to-- We're going to have rehearsals," as she brought in Bentley Green, who plays Keith. We just did like little workshops. She just got us in a room together, and we did these exercises and not even bothering with the script much, just how we move together, how we interact. I thought that was the most helpful thing that she could have done, because leaving those two days that we worked together, we all had a sense of, "This is going to be good. We can get this done."

Then, on set every day, she always checks in. She checks in. She let us know what's going on and how we're feeling. Because when she says,"Okay, we got it," we have to trust that it's good and she's happy, because as actors, we're always like, "Maybe we should try it again," or, "Are you sure? Are you sure?" She was so confident with what we were doing and what she wanted, that it just helped move the process along and helped us with not having doubt.

Alison Stewart: Tamika, every director I've ever talked to has said being a director means making tough choices. You have to constantly make choices. That's what you do all day long. What was a tough choice you had to make on this film?

Tamika Miller: Well, the process of making an independent film is, I think, as Wanda said earlier, it's like we're moving. There's no 10 takes. [chuckles] As a director, though, historically, I am the kind of director, if I got it, I got it. I don't need to do too many takes. There are moments or times when my actor might want to try it again, and that's fine. That's fine. Well, let's do another take. If I know I have it, then I'm going to move on. For me, that's about moving the set along [chuckles] and just keeping the momentum of our day. We had a lot to shoot and cover in making this film, and it was important to me that we were able to move quickly at times.

Also, I wanted my actors to feel that they were safe and that I had their back. My hat's off to Wanda. Yes, she's number one on the call sheet, which also means Wanda is in every other scene. [chuckles] She is working nonstop, long days. Wanda showed up incredibly day after day after day. It was such an honor to work with her, and I would do it any day of the week. Just such a pleasure to work with. Wanda's very easy and really trusted the process, trust me. That's all a director can ever hope for.

Wanda Sykes: That's what they called me in high school, too, by the way.

Tamika Miller: What? Easy?

Wanda Sykes: Easy.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: Well, this answers my next question. Wanda, [laughs] it's your dramatic debut. Would you do it again? Do you think you'll do it again?

Wanda Sykes: Yes, of course. If the right project comes along and it speaks to me, of course.

Alison Stewart: Comedy still in the picture, please?

Wanda Sykes: Oh, comedy is always here. That's number one for me.

Alison Stewart: Thank the dear Lord. The name of the film is Undercard, which enters theaters this Friday, February 27th. My guests have been actor, Wanda Sykes, and director, Tamika Miller. Congratulations on your film.

Tamika Miller: Thank you.

Wanda Sykes: Thank you, thank you.