Title: Vegan Chef Charity Morgan's New Max Special, “Unbelievably Vegan"

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It. I'm Kousha Navidar for Allison Stewart today. Hey, happy food for thought Thursday. Every week, we bring you conversations about cooking, restaurants, recipes, flavor, you know, food, making it, enjoying it, appreciating the stories behind it. And today we're going to talk about a new HBO special featuring chef Charity Morgan.

Her focus is on plant-based cooking, particularly for people who are attached to meat-based dishes. She catered Miley Cyrus's wedding, and she has a meal prep business that caters to celebrities and even NFL athletes. That includes her husband, Derek, who's a former linebacker for the Tennessee Titans. Plus, she consults with restaurants on adding vegan options to their menus, which is the subject of the HBO special.

It centers on her efforts to convince the head chef of a Nashville soul food restaurant called Germantown Pub that there is room under the soul food umbrella for plant-based dishes. So joining us now to talk about the special called Unbelievably Vegan, which, side note, is also the name of her cookbook, please welcome Charity Morgan. Charity, hey, welcome to All Of It.

Charity Morgan: Hello. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

Kousha: Absolutely. It's a pleasure to have you here. And listeners, we're talking about vegan cooking, and we want to hear from you, too. If you're looking for some advice on veganizing a favorite meat dish, or you want to shout out your favorite vegan recipes, give us a call. We're at (212) 433-9692. That's (212) 433-WNYC. Or maybe you're looking to, I don't know, convince an avowed meat lover that plant-based food can be just as tasty. Or you're looking for some inspiration for your Labor Day cookout.

You want to keep it free of animal products, you have a question for chef Charity Morgan, give us a call. (212) 433-9692, or you can hit us up on Instagram or on X. We're at All Of It WNYC. Okay, Charity, so football fans might know your husband Derek from his tenure as a linebacker for the Titans, and he's a big part of the reason you turned your focus to plant-based cooking. Can you tell us about your initial journey into veganism?

Charity: It was something that I never thought that I would actually just wake up and say, "I'm going vegan." I tried that before, and I failed miserably. We'll talk about that if you want to know about it.

[laughter]

It's quite a disappointment.

Kousha: Oh, yeah?

Charity: But in 2017, when my husband decided that he wanted to try an anti-inflammatory diet and just lower the meat and the dairy, the things that were causing him inflammation. He had a meal prep service, and at the time, I was like, "No, I'm not giving up my fish, and I'm not giving up my cheese." And I was like a lot of people, I had all these barriers of what I wasn't going to do. And I watched him struggle. It was kind of sad.

I was like watching him try to eat someone else's food, and he's like, "This is horrible, but I'm going to get it down." Just because he had a goal, and his goal was to lower his inflammation. And it was strange because I jumped on because I felt sorry for him, not for me, but for him, and started preparing his meals. It was literally the first day of him sitting in the locker room and popping open his containers, and people are like, "Whoa, wait, that's not what we're eating. What are you eating?"

It became more of a conversation of this is what I'm eating. And, "Your stuff looks better than my stuff," is what his teammates were saying. And it quickly, I would be in the kitchen and, "Hey, can you add this person? And could you add this person?"

Kousha: And it just kind of snowballed from there.

Charity: It snowballed into one training day, 19 athletes later.

Kousha: Wow. And a business, a bona fide business. It sounds like started out of love, right? Love for your partner. That turned into a love of food.

Charity: Absolutely.

Kousha: And you have this system. Going to your business, you have this system I found quite interesting when watching the special of the three R's, which stand for replace, replicate, and reveal. Can you go into that system a little bit when you're consulting with restaurants?

Charity: Yes. Often people, when you say the v-word, they get so terrified, as if I'm asking you to change everything you once ever knew about food and taste and flavor and everything. So the replace comes in because often you're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's usually only one or two items that you're replacing for that dish. I mean, it comes down to one to two things. And I'm often pointing out, like, "Hey, gave me your grandmother's recipe." Well, there's only one thing we're replacing here, and it's just eggs.

Most people don't see it like that and then replicate. So how are we going to replicate this to achieve the exact same flavor for what you once knew as fried chicken, Caesar salad, cheesecake, whatever it may be. And then revealing, "Hey, this is what I did. I went in my lab, I created this, and let me know what you think."

Kousha: Listeners, we just heard from Charity about an approach to veganizing a menu. If you've got a question for chef Morgan or you want to talk about your own journey into veganism, give us a call. We're at (212) 433-9692. Charity, we have a couple of calls. Let's go to them. Chuck in Riverdale. Chuck, hi. Welcome to the show.

Chuck: Oh, hi. Chef Morgan, thank you so much. I'm a black man from the Bronx, and I love me some soul food, especially chitlins. But I'm on my journey. For the past eight years, I've been trying to veganize my meals. So I have a question about the ingredients because a lot of vegan products are very, very, very processed. And I was waiting if you have a solution to use ingredients that's not processed, more whole foods, whole ingredients for these meals trying to veganize soul food.

Kousha: Chuck, thank you so much for that question. There's actually a text here that echoes that exactly. How can we have a vegan but not processed lifestyle? Charity, I'm sure you hear this a lot, right?

Charity: Yes, I do. Thank you, Chuck, for that question. Just like you, I love my soul food. I actually double as being Creole and Puerto Rican. Don't take away my Latin food, and please don't take away from my soul food. You obviously don't have my cookbook because I talk about that. And in my cookbook, I often will give people a plant-based version of, "Hey, you can put plant-based chicken here."

Or if you don't want chicken, we're going to use jackfruit or we're going to use chickpeas. I talk about that a lot, and it comes down to, Chuck, one thing and one thing only. It's your spices, homeboy. This is soul food. We're not taking away the soul. We're just taking away the animal products. Soul food spices, it's just what it is. It's like using your grandmother's Cajun seasonings and don't forget them bay leaves.

And just putting that love for everything that you once know as soul food, just make it a couple tweaks. And I love that. Message me on my Instagram or on my website if you have a particular dish. I'm nine out of ten sure that I already veganized it for you, and I'll help you out.

Kousha: Chuck, thank you so much for that call. I think we've got another caller that's maybe looking for some tips. Jeff in New Rochelle. Hey, Jeff. Welcome to the show. Hey. Hey, Jeff, you there?

Jeff: Yes. Can you hear me?

Kousha: We're trying to get Jeff. Hey, Jeff. Hey, we can hear you. How you doing?

Jeff: Okay, great. Yes. I love my barbecued meat, but I've also had some great smoked vegetable dishes. And so I was curious what you might recommend in terms of vegetables and vegetable dishes that one could use on a smoker or a big green egg.

Kousha: Jeff, thanks so much. Go ahead, Charity.

Charity: Oh, my gosh. You went to my heart right now because I love smoking. If you watch that special on Max, it's actually a segment in there about smoking. So I'm on, you'll see on camera, I have JD, who's a phenomenal chef, that that's all he does in his restaurant is smoke. Smoke wings and all these delicious things. Outside of jackfruit, which you will see me smoking on the special. I love marinating first. This is a trick. You have to marinate it first and then smoke tofu. Thank me later.

I had actually an athlete say, "I'll eat anything you give me, but do not give me tofu. I cannot stand tofu." And I was like, "Okay." And I just threw it out. I marinated this tofu, smoked it, and I do this recipe called Smoked Caesar Salad. And I minced up, and then after I smoked it, I seared it. You didn't know what it was when it was all said and done. And that is his number one requested dish, and he had no idea it was tofu. I said, by the way, that was tofu. And he's like, "Okay, well, I got to stop saying, I hate tofu."

Kousha: Wow. So it went from something that he abhorred to his favorite, like you said. Jeff, thank you so much for calling. You know, Charity, you talking about subverting expectations or making people think in a different way was an unexpected draw for me when I was watching your special. There's this push and this pull we see in the special between the economics of running a restaurant and the personal taste of the head chef.

And you are really demonstrating a kind of a masterclass in change management and just leading people along to changing their expectations. Let's listen to a couple of clips from the special. Here's JD, who you mentioned, the head chef at Germantown Pub in Nashville when you first sit down to talk about vegan options at his restaurant.

JD: Look at me. Nothing about this body says Vegan. I'm not gonna be convinced. You got to convince me. You got to show me. This is built on swine. People come in here because they looking for those trifecta wings and them catfish nuggets. They want them juicy burgers with their big jalapenos sitting on top, something crunchy and greasy. And this is what people are looking for when they come in here.

Charity: I'm looking for the same thing.

Kousha: So at that point, you know, you're dealing with a tough customer. But here's what he sounds like after tasting some of your alternatives.

JD: That pickled red onion gives it another pop of freshness. And the vegan beer cheese. I'm shocked. You shocked me.

Kousha: So let's talk about how you not only convinced JD, but you shocked him. You have a very tactful way of dealing with skeptical chefs. You give them props. You leave them space to be surprised. It seems like you're careful to let the foods do most of the convincing instead of trying to justify with your words. So I'm wondering, what have you learned over the years of doing this, about change management, about leadership, when you kind of parachute into a restaurant that's asked for your help?

Charity: I find that often, us as chefs, we have a specific way that we're taught, and that is kind of the fundamental and the foundation of who we are as a chef. I was once there, and that's why I said that I failed in 2015 when I tried to go vegan, because I was taught the Le Cordon Bleu way of things, which is butter, heavy cream, this is the foundation. Outside of this, it's not real if you do it this way. We often need to understand that rules in the kitchen are meant to be broken.

And if you aren't breaking those rules, then you're not creating. Who told somebody to take an egg yolk and emulsify it? And it's one of the most iconic salads in the world, which is a Caesar salad. That took breaking a rule. And so with these chefs, like JD, it's about letting them know that, A, you can break a rule, and B, there's a world of possibilities of other things. And I like to show them by what they're already making.

So I'm not trying to change your language. I stick to their language. I'm not trying to teach you Chinese. Let's start with the language that you're speaking right now. And when I was taking JD's beer pub cheese. And I'm like, "Hey, we're doing it the same way. Give me your favorite beer." I want the beer that you're using. And I recreated his dish. He was like, "Oh, my gosh, I didn't even know this is possible."

Kousha: Yeah, it's like seeing them at eye level is what you're describing there, meeting them where they are really thinking about their perspective. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking to chef Charity Morgan, cookbook author, does meal prep services for celebrities and NFL players. Her special Unbelievably Vegan is on HBO. It's available to stream now on Max. We're talking about special considerations for some folks who really care about their diet.

We're talking about NFL players. Right? Folks who need high protein, who need to have a lot of energy, who are biggest eaters. I'm wondering what special considerations in terms of nutrition would you keep in mind for folks who are maybe more physically active than most if they want to partake of a vegan diet? Do you think about that?

Charity: I often do because my husband, he likes to eat high protein, low carbs. So we're filling up on a lot of whole plant-based options for his protein. So leaning more into the things that-- There's so much protein in plant foods and people often think that it's just only through animal products, but it's so far from true. Chickpeas and lentils. And it's not just protein. You're getting amino acids and magnesium and micro. We're talking about micronutrients as well.

And it's not always about the macros, it's about the micros too because your body needs minerals. It needs so much more to be able to be competitive. And as you can imagine, I'm not going to say the most, but who competes more than an NFL athlete? You're banging your body up. It's a head-on collision every single play. And when people realize that you can do it on that level of competition than any other level is kind of like, I'm not going to reduce it, but it can, you can achieve it.

Kousha: Yes. If the diet works in the NFL, it probably works for a lot of other kinds of folks who are doing all different kinds of activities.

Charity: Absolutely.

Kousha: Let's go to Kate in Connecticut. Hey, Kate, welcome to the show.

Kate: Hi, how are you?

Kousha: Good, thanks. How are you?

Kate: Good, thank you.

Kousha: Go ahead.

Kate: I love this clip because for those of us who are maybe not fully vegan, but have tons of food allergies, vegan food just tends to be easy and safe and flavorful and delicious. So I just wanted to kind of give voice to those people. And we have a lot of family that loves their barbecue and meat and all of their meat products and animal products.

But we tend to surprise them with vegan recipes at our house often because marinated tofu, like they said, and chickpea salads that taste kind of like a tuna salad, but not. It's a great thing to have so many recipes now that people can use and really enjoy their animal-free, plant-based foods.

Kousha: Kate, thanks so much for that call. I hear a lot of echoes of what you were saying Charity about even just surprising meat lovers with addition and letting them know, "Hey, this is plant-based." We've got a text here for a question. What would be a good way to replace the fat, smoke, and crunch of bacon in a vegan casino filling for tomatoes casino? So it looks like this listener is asking for alternatives for bacon, both in taste and in texture. What do you think?

Charity: It's all about your marinade. So when you're creating, whether it's using-- There's so many things that you could use as a bacon product. I've even seen people use rice paper. It's so much I love, love, love, love mushrooms and that the mushroom kingdom has so many different varieties. But it all comes down to your marinade. And I do not skimp on the fat when I am marinating. So whatever I use, I actually put like a good olive oil or avocado oil and make sure that's in my marinade as well so that when it's absorbing flavor, it's also absorbing fat.

Kousha: What are some top must-haves for you and your vegan pantry? Or if folks are starting out, what are some elements, some staples they should have in their pantry?

Charity: I have so many, but I have a whole pantry list in my cookbook. Here's a couple. I love nutritional yeast because it gives the cheesy flavor. I love some amino acids, whether it's like a coconut aminos. Soy sauce or tamari doubles well for that umami flavor that you need in meats. Acids. Acids are phenomenal. Stop running from acids. So often I will create a dish as I'm in the kitchen and I'm just like, "What is this missing? What is this missing?"

As I'm making it. Often it's missing an acid. An acid goes into those spices and it kind of allows them to open up, it blooms your spices. So using citrus, lemons, limes, oranges, a good red wine vinegar, or even a white distilled vinegar or a rice wine vinegar, don't be afraid of your acids.

Kousha: That's wonderful. It's no surprise, but I listen to these staples and I don't hear things that are processed. It seems like there's so many options beyond just what you might find in what is pushed in the popular vegan diet. I'm looking at the clock. There's this text that I wanted to get to because this actually applies to me a little bit because I love ice cream. I'm looking for ice cream alternatives right now. This is what the texter said.

So from the texter, it says, "Ice cream loving, type two diabetic Asian woman who is very lactose intolerant. What modifications can I make instead of heavy cream, condensed milk, and so much powdered sugar? I'm open to sorbet if there are no good ice cream alternates." Charity, what do you think? We got about a minute left.

Charity: Well, I love ice cream as well. There are so many choices right now in the grocery store. Every time I go, it's a new brand, try them and try them all. Turn it around and look at the ingredients and see if it fits your lifestyle and your diet. And if you are ever in Nashville, go to Coco's. Coco's is phenomenal. I'll put them over anything you can find in the grocery stores. Just such delicious stuff, and every day, it's like a new flavor. They are fun, creative, and super. It has that extra thick texture, that mouthfeel that normal ice cream does.

Kousha: Oh. So shout out to Cocos if you're ever in Nashville. Got to put a pin in it there. We've been talking to Charity Morgan, the chef, the cookbook author. Her HBO special is available to stream now on Max. It is called Unbelievably Vegan. And as we mentioned, she also has a cookbook with that same name, Unbelievably Vegan. Charity, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.

Charity: Thank you so much.

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