Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. There's a lot going on this weekend, and on tomorrow's show, we're going to highlight two things, Pride and local beaches. I'm going to be off doing Full bio, so David Furst will be sitting in the chair for me. Be sure to listen up and call in, and share your favorite beaches. Plus, tell us what your Pride weekend plans are. That's in the future. Right now, let's take a trip back to school with a new play called Trophy Boys.

[music]

Alison Stewart: A group of prep school seniors is gearing up for the final debate. It is going to be an epic showdown. They are ready to take on a girls' school, and they are sure they're going to crush it until they see the subject. They have to debate that feminism has failed women in the affirmative. They have an hour to come up with an argument. Now, if that enough, they find out there's a rumor about one of them that could have repercussions. The play is four people in one room. Four nonbinary and female actors are playing these hyped up teenage boys.

Trophy Boys was written by Emmanuelle Mattana, and she says in a note in the program, "Gender is learned, which means it is also taught with this brand of masculinity inhabited on stage by non-CIS male bodies. My hope is that it can be revealed for what it is, comical, absurd, and ultimately a disturbing performance." Trophy Boys has toured all over Australia, and it's made its way to the Manhattan Theatre Club. It'll be there until July 27th. Joining me now is the writer of the play and one of the actors, Emmanuelle Mattana. Nice to meet you.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Hi, thanks for having me.

Alison Stewart: Also, Louisa Jacobson, who is playing Jared. It's a big week for Louisa because you can see her in the Gilded Age as well as Materialists. Nice to see you, Louisa.

Louisa Jacobson: Nice to see you, too.

Alison Stewart: All right. You were a debater.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Unfortunately, yes.

Alison Stewart: Before you wrote this.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Yes.

Alison Stewart: What do you remember liking about debate?

Emmanuelle Mattana: I think debating was so great for me as a young teenage girl because I was so political, I was so argumentative, and it gave me a space where for eight minutes, I got to be uninterrupted and have people listen to me, but also have a space where I got to learn about things that really mattered. I was learning about current affairs and politics and things that aren't normally a part of the curriculum, and getting this really broad education that was about things that mattered to me, firstly, but also was about how to argue and how to speak and how to think. I think those are all things that have really stuck with me, even if debating itself was maybe a bit gross.

Alison Stewart: What was your experience with debate, Louisa?

Louisa Jacobson: I have no previous experience with debate.

Alison Stewart: None?

Louisa Jacobson: None.

Alison Stewart: This was a new world for you?

Louisa Jacobson: Yes. I had observed it as a high schooler myself at Poly Prep Country Day School. There was a debate team there. I knew what the guys were like that did it, but I was never a part of it.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Which meant that when we started rehearsals, Danya Taymor, our wonderful director, got us to do all these practice debates. Louisa says that she hasn't done debate before, but she's really very good and very competitive all of a sudden.

Alison Stewart: What makes someone a good debater?

Emmanuelle Mattana: The ability to think fast, to be articulate, be commanding, be convincing, and maybe also cynically, which this play hopes to highlight, the ability to really convincingly argue things you don't necessarily know enough about or even believe.

Alison Stewart: What did Danya Taymor have you debate? Do you remember?

Emmanuelle Mattana: Do you remember the organ donation one?

Louisa Jacobson: Oh, yes. The organ donation [crosstalk].

Emmanuelle Mattana: She got us to do really messy things. That was fun.

Alison Stewart: That must have been hard.

Louisa Jacobson: It was hard, but it was also so playful. Those practice debates were just-- the stakes felt really high. You only had a little amount of time to prep some answers, and it was silly, so it felt playful. Actually, I was surprised at what we came up with.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Yes, we were really smart.

Louisa Jacobson: I sometimes forget that I can do that because I'm not challenged to do that that often anymore, with my phone taking away all my brain cells.

Alison Stewart: That's the conversation. When did you realize that debate would be good fodder for writing a play?

Emmanuelle Mattana: I pretty much stopped debating straight after high school. Then, back in Australia in 2021, there was a really high-profile MeToo case against our Attorney General, who was basically on the way to become prime minister. That MeToo case was a historical case from when he was 17 and at a high school debating tournament. The woman who made those accusations, Kate, came forward, but then subsequently took her life before they were able to be made public. This play really was a tribute to Kate and to all those high school debating tournaments that I went to that I saw were just like that exact tournament.

I was 20 when I started writing the play. I had always joked when I was younger with my friends who did debate that we definitely knew all of the men, the boys who were going to become the leaders, and we thought that was a really funny joke until we realized it probably wasn't. I think for me it was a reckoning of going, "Okay, well, I saw all of these boys' behavior up close and I knew something was deeply wrong when I was a teenager, and now maybe with the distance, I can put words and thoughts to what I experienced. How can I turn it into comedy? How can I reclaim it? How can I literally put on these boys' shoes and step into them and say something?"

Alison Stewart: We are discussing the play Trophy Boys, which is at the MCC Theater through July 27. My guests are Emmanuelle Mattana and actor Louisa Jacobson. Let's listen. This is a clip from Trophy Boys. This is a point when they find out what they're going to have to debate. Let's listen, and we can talk about it on the other side.

Speaker 4: We can't argue that.

Speaker 5: Yes, ethically.

Speaker 4: I just don't believe that.

Speaker 5: I can't argue something I don't believe.

Speaker 4: You realize that's literally what debating is, right?

[laughter]

Speaker 4: I love women.

Speaker 6: Yes, sure, right.

Speaker 4: They'll think we're bad people, though. Bad men.

Speaker 6: Not in this political climate.

Speaker 4: I don't think this means what you think it means.

Speaker 6: You'll look really bad.

Speaker 4: Like the zeitgeist.

Speaker 5: We also just won't win it.

Speaker 4: We can't. Not against our sister school.

Speaker 5: Because they're like feminism women.

Alison Stewart: Like feminism. Like women.

Emmanuelle Mattana: They're like feminism women.

Alison Stewart: Louisa, why did the idea of debating feminism-- It's both funny and horrible for these boys at the same time. What do you think of that idea of giving boys this idea of debating that feminism has failed women?

Louisa Jacobson: I think if we're thinking about boys who are living in 2025, and not just boys, honestly, we're all very careful now about what we say and aware that if we say the wrong thing, we could be totally socially ostracized. I think that that's something that's definitely on Jared's mind, and I think there's also, for him, a conflict of interest because he loves women and supports them. I think that he could never conceive of arguing on the side that feminism has indeed failed women because it would seem like a betrayal.

Alison Stewart: How did you come up with the idea that it was going to be feminism that they were going to debate?

Emmanuelle Mattana: It's funny, I knew a lot of self-proclaimed feminists in high school who walked one walk and talked another talk. I think that the hypocrisy was always really glaring to me, and I think it was always going to be that topic. I always wanted to unpack what was behind men who said all the right things, but that didn't reflect in their behavior. I think what's been really interesting since the inspiration and since I started writing it is we've actually had this real backlash to MeToo, where originally men, I think, were trying really hard to be perceived as doing all the right things, and now they can say whatever they want and still become president.

Alison Stewart: Louisa, how would you describe Jared, the character you play?

Louisa Jacobson: Jared is a soft boy, jock artist. He's got so much riz.

Emmanuelle Mattana: He loves his mom.

Louisa Jacobson: He loves his mom, he loves his girlfriend. He wants to do the right thing. He wants to bring integrity to all of his endeavors. He wants to be a superhero. He wants to contribute something good to the world. I really believe that about him, but he's young, I think.

Alison Stewart: Did you know many Jareds in your life?

Louisa Jacobson: I knew so many Jareds. I still do. I think that's what made it relatively easy to step into that role. Lots of Jared that I both still have in my life and love, and then some that I really will never speak to again.

Alison Stewart: Scott's played by, is it Esco Jouléy?

Emmanuelle Mattana: Esco Jouléy.

Alison Stewart: Thank you. His dad's a lawyer. He can be a bit aggro. David is played by Terry Hu. As a team manager, he can be a little manipulative in a situation. Then you play Owen.

Emmanuelle Mattana: The wonderful Owen.

Alison Stewart: Owen wants to be president one day.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Absolutely, and he will be.

Alison Stewart: He could be. What is important to Owen in the moment?

Emmanuelle Mattana: Being the voice of his generation, being correct at all times, and most importantly, winning the debate at all costs.

Alison Stewart: Does he believe he can win the debate?

Emmanuelle Mattana: Of course, he can. He can twist anything, and he's the smartest in the room.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to trophy boys.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Oh, no.

Alison Stewart: This is Owen explaining how they might win the debate that feminism has failed women.

Owen: My time begins now. Central argument. Feminism has failed women when it is not intersectional. The pillars of first and second wave ideology, the fundamentals upon which modern feminism were built, were designed for white and middle-class women. The movement has been unable to adapt on a profound intellectual, political, spiritual level to inherently become intersectional because of said roots, and therefore, in failing different intersections of women, feminism has failed all women. We identify the most vulnerable stakeholders in the case. LGBTQIA+, WNBA, Body Inclusive, BIPOC, and then when the girls can't address them, we win.

Alison Stewart: Is Owen an evil genius, or is he just an example of how anything can really be argued?

Emmanuelle Mattana: I think for the sake of the show, you'll have to come along and find out.

Alison Stewart: When you were writing it, though, what were you thinking?

Emmanuelle Mattana: I don't think he's evil. I think the thing is that when I was writing this show, I wanted to write with so much compassion for the boys. I have a younger brother who's 16 and is truly the love of my life. I think the thing that's important when we have all these conversations about feminism is the way that actually patriarchy is affecting young men, and it's denying them their ability to be emotionally expressive, to feel their feelings, to connect intimately with other people. I always wanted to be at the heart of this for us to show that we really, really do care about them and that they're victims just as much as women are.

Alison Stewart: Louisa, what have you had to observe about boys to play this part?

Louisa Jacobson: What have I had to observe about boys to play this part?

Alison Stewart: How they get excited. I'm just curious about-- I have a 17-year-old son. I recognized him in certain aspects of the show.

Louisa Jacobson: Yes, for sure. I think, to me, what's the most interesting is their behavior under pressure. I'm not going to be very articulate about this, but their good intentions. At least the ones that we are playing, they're not out here trying to cause harm. I think what's interesting to me is that moral dilemma or the dilemma that exists within them of wanting to win and wanting to be ambitious, but also wanting people to like them.

I think right now there might be this feeling among young men where they're like, "I'm such an easy target." Which is a funny thing for me to say, but they might feel like scapegoats or that there's a target on their back, and they're like, "Who's going to hold me and comfort me even through my mistakes?" I think there's a desperate need for love and acceptance in young men, particularly teenage boys. I have so much love and respect for them, even though they can cause a lot of harm unknowingly. I think the thing that interests me the most is the shift.

There's this shiftiness in young men. I've kept an eye out for teenage boys as I walk through the streets of New York, and there's this nervousness, or they're constantly moving something. They're moving their legs, they're shifting their shirts, they're looking around. There's a restlessness that I also have tried to capture in this particular play in this context. Where does that live in Jared's body, and is it activated by wanting to win and wanting to do well, both at the same time?

Alison Stewart: You have a change in director. You toured Australia. Now you have Donya Taymor, Tony Award-winning Donya Taymor. She's great. The Outsiders, John Proctor is the villain. She came by to talk to us about that. First of all, what was it like to give your play over to a new director?

Emmanuelle Mattana: It's been an absolute joy because Danya is a genius and has so much empathy for all of the characters, such a deep understanding of the show, and so much bravery. I think I knew as soon as we met and talked about the play that it was in safe hands.

Alison Stewart: What did she change?

Emmanuelle Mattana: We've totally readapted the whole play to be set here. Originally, it was obviously set in Australia, and that means that a whole bunch of cultural references are completely shifting.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Emmanuelle Mattana: We've changed a lot of dialogue. A lot of the references we make to specific men, specific MeToo cases, are all completely new. There's also just been a real cultural shift, which has been fascinating to navigate, and she's been such a guide through it all.

Alison Stewart: What piece of advice, Louisa, did Danya give you to help you reach your full Jaredness?

Louisa Jacobson: Oh, gosh, there are so many pieces, it's hard to pick one. I think something that she said to all of us was that, particularly me and Scott, because I think we come across as the not-as-smart ones. She said, "These boys aren't stupid." I feel like that seems obvious, but it's such an important piece that we have to always remember.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Louisa Jacobson: I always go into every project that I do, trying to have so much respect for every character that I play. I certainly didn't want Jared to come across that I was judging him in any way. That piece of advice helped. Then she always says too, when we feel a little lost on stage or if we're off the train, she says, "Just stay with the boys. Your boys are going to keep you grounded and present." That's been so helpful as an actor. If I suddenly become very aware of my performance and stop being present, I will just make eye contact with Scott or Owen, or David, and I'll get right back on track.

Alison Stewart: We're discussing the play Trophy Boys, playing at the MCC Theater until July 27th. My guests are writer and actor Emmanuelle Mattana and actor Louisa Jacobson. All the characters are nonbinary and female. This was always the case.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Why?

Emmanuelle Mattana: I think, for me, I'm really interested in understanding the ways that gender is a performance. It's something that gets put on, and I hope that there is an invitation in the show that if you see we can put it on, maybe you can also take it off. That there are things we don't need to hold on so tightly to, and that maybe a lot of this is constructed, and we can liberate ourselves from it. I hope that there's joy in that. For me, like I said, I think gender is a bit of a scam, but I also think that there's joy to be found.

I think, also drag kings, especially, it's such an underappreciated art form that I think a lot of people don't know what to do with it when they see femme people dressing up as men and possibly lampooning them. It's been really exciting to step into that space and watch how us, as performers, I think, are learning to take up space because of that.

Louisa Jacobson: Yes, absolutely.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting. I saw some of the clips of the Australia version, and it's more comical in some way. The costuming is different. Tell us a little bit about that.

Emmanuelle Mattana: I think something we really discovered throughout this production has a lot to do with comedic sensibilities here versus back home. I think back home, we grew up on a diet of Kath & Kim and Summer Heights High and those sorts of shows where we have a lot of love and empathy for the clown, and that no matter how big and silly things are, we can see truth in them. Whereas something that we've really worked on here is building so much more truth into the characters, shrinking them down. That has been really fascinating.

I think back home, our boys, they perhaps started as bigger caricatures, or there was perhaps more of a joke to be found in what does it mean if we walk on with a terribly drawn-on moustache and giant oversized blazer? Whereas here, I think we're actually just boys, and that's been really exciting that people have gone, "Oh yes. A few minutes in, I forgot that it was drag. I was just watching boys."

Alison Stewart: There are moments in the play which seem like fantasy a little bit. You dance around like you're in the club. You've got some moves, by the way, Louisa.

Louisa Jacobson: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: What does that moment mean for you as an actor? Is it fantasy? Is it who Jared is thinking in his head? That moment in the play?

Louisa Jacobson: Sure. That moment is when we are doing a silent brainstorm. Really what we were working with with Danya was like, these boys are getting horny on how smart they are and the brilliant points that are coming to their minds in this moment during their brainstorm and they're just getting off on it, but I also think it's just a wonderful moment of-- because the first half of the play can hold that camp element, whereas the shift in the second half doesn't. I think it's a wonderful moment to lean into the joy of drag.

Just to speak on what Em was saying, I think historically, people don't really understand how to receive drag kings or drag in this direction. It's been really interesting to recognize that we are actually, with this show, batting up a little bit in that sense, in terms of digestibility for an audience. We're just not as used to seeing women or nonbinary people dressing as men as we are seeing queens everywhere. I think what does that have to do with? I don't know. It's an interesting question. I'm like, "Why?" Sometimes I'm like, "Maybe it's because historically as a society, we don't take women as seriously. They're the butt of the joke, and so to lean into that with queens, it makes sense that that's more funny and more digestible to people. We can make fun of women.

Emmanuelle Mattana: I think it's threatening.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Emmanuelle Mattana: I think I want to also acknowledge that what we're doing isn't necessarily easy, and I hope that when people see the show, they can come to it with a curiosity about what does it mean that actually as female or trans or nonbinary bodies, we're on stage doing this? What does it cost us to inhabit masculinity? What's it an invitation for? I really hope people can meet us there and get curious about what we're actually saying rather than freaking out at us in blazers and ties.

Alison Stewart: It's interesting because the action takes place in one room. That door closes, and we are all in that room together. What does the action do for you as a writer? What creatively does it do for you as a writer to put all the action in one place?

Emmanuelle Mattana: I think I'm really interested in what happens behind closed doors. We talk so much about locker room culture and about the things that we don't get to see often. I think so often now what we're seeing with MeToo and all these really high-profile cases is that powerful men protect other powerful men, and that so often we're not privy to this. For me, I guess I was interested in, "Okay, well, what send-up can we do of what is happening behind closed doors, and how exciting can that be that that's a pressure cooker when no one comes in, no one leaves, they're stuck dealing with the thing for an hour?"

Alison Stewart: We're not going to say what the thing is, but there comes a moment when they turn on each other at one point. Why did you want this show to take a little bit of a darker turn?

Emmanuelle Mattana: Because I think as a society, we don't know how to have these bigger conversations. I think I started writing the show as a comedy about men dealing with feminism, and then I realized that we-- I'm very happy to name. What we're actually talking about in the show is we are talking about sexual assault, and we're talking about the fact that men don't get held accountable for their actions, and that what starts as something really light is actually a much bigger conversation.

What I'm interested in with the turn from comedy to drama is what do we let men get away with when we thought they were harmless boys? What do we laugh at and, in so doing, actually enable it to continue to happen, and how do we as a society begin to have those conversations that are challenging and difficult? My hope is that laughter is part of that.

Alison Stewart: Louisa, when people leave the show, go have a drink, have a cup of coffee, what do you hope they talk about? What questions do you hope they bring up to one another?

Louisa Jacobson: I think I hope that the conversation is less about what do you think happened? How much can I speak about here? I don't want to give away anything.

Emmanuelle Mattana: All of it. Go crazy.

Louisa Jacobson: I want it less to be about a whodunit and more a contemplation on what are the ways that we do a disservice to ourselves and to young boys in society. Does social ostracization-- Did I say that right? [crosstalk] Cancel culture, does that actually help in terms of making men feel safe saying the wrong things, or does it make it worse? What are ways that we can hold men accountable more? There was one day we were rehearsing the show, particularly the end, which is a jarring moment, but I had all these emotions that started flooding up after that.

I think I just realized that I wasn't alone in terms of my experience with consent or lack thereof, experience of my friends. It just hit me that, unfortunately, it's all too familiar among way too many young women and nonbinary people. I hope that people also come away from this feeling seen and held. All those things.

Emmanuelle Mattana: My favorite quote is that art should comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable. I think that's really what this show is doing. We're trying to speak some truth to power, and we're also trying to show up for female and nonbinary people and let them know we're here for them.

Alison Stewart: The name of the play is Trophy Boys. It's playing at the MCC Theater over on West 52nd until July 27th. Emmanuelle Mattana and Louisa Jacobson, thanks for being here.

Emmanuelle Mattana: Thank you for having us.

Louisa Jacobson: Thanks so much for having us.