[music]

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. You two are going to be trouble. This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for sharing part of your day with us. I'm really grateful you are here on today's show. We have a music theme going through today's show. The band Ok Go will join us in studio to perform live. We'll learn about a documentary-- Woo. We'll learn about a documentary about promoter Ron Delsener, interesting.

Gracie Lawrence: That's so cool.

Alison Stewart: Ron Delsener presents. Yep. We'll celebrate the 25th anniversary of Aimee Mann's album Bachelor No. 2 for the latest installment of our series, Silver Liner Notes. That's our plan. Let's get this started with some Bobby Darin.

[music]

Alison Stewart: The new musical Just in Time begins with Jonathan Groff on stage. I don't mean Jonathan Groff as crooner Bobby Darin, the subject of the musical. I mean Jonathan, Jonathan. He's there to let us know that he is a Bobby Darin super fan. He's there to tell us the story of a powerhouse performer, Bobby Darin, a crooner, an award winner, a man who lived in the present because he had an illness that could take his life. Jonathan goes back and forth between being our narrator and being Bobby Darin with all the charm and the talent.

Jonathan's co-star Gracie Lawrence steps into the shoes of Connie Francis. Connie is a star in her own right and once was Bobby's creative and romantic partner. Now, if Gracie's name sounds familiar to listeners, it's because you've heard her on our air before performing with her band, Lawrence. Both Jonathan and Gracie are Tony-nominated for their performances in Just in Time, which follows Bobby's rise to fame, his family drama, and his untimely death at age 37. Just in Time is running now at Circle in the Square through July 27th. Joining me now, you've heard him already, it's Jonathan Groff. Hi, Jonathan.

Jonathan Groff: How's it going?

Alison Stewart: It's going forward. Hi, Gracie, how are you?

Gracie Lawrence: I'm good. I'm so happy to be here.

Alison Stewart: I'm so happy to have you back. Welcome back.

Gracie Lawrence: Thank you.

Alison Stewart: You start the show as Jonathan Groff. You come in, you address us as the audience.

Jonathan Groff: Yes.

Alison Stewart: How did that creative decision come about?

Jonathan Groff: We started developing this show almost eight years ago now, and in my research and books that I read about Bobby and interviews and things, everybody said he was this Grammy Award-winning recording star, he was this Oscar-nominated actor, he's a prolific songwriter and producer. By all accounts, he was at the height of his powers when he was at the center of the floor of a nightclub. People would say, like Sammy Davis Jr. famously said, "The only person I won't follow is Bobby Darin." When we were thinking about creating this show, Alex Timbers, our incredible director--

Alison Stewart: He's great.

Jonathan Groff: Great, amazing, and a pro, especially at transforming spaces. We wanted to create the environment of a nightclub, which we have at Circle in the Square. There's cabaret, seating at tables. We walk through the audience. Gracie and I do a scene sitting at a table with audience members. We wanted to recreate the nightclub in honor of the spirit of who he was. Then I asked years ago at the start of the development of the writing of the project, if I could start the show as myself so that there would not even be the artifice of character between performer and audience. That felt like spiritually the best way to honor who he was and what he did to a room.

I begin the show as myself in the first few minutes to create that invisible thread between performer and audience member. Then I'd snap my fingers and become him. We all go on the ride together. When the audience members are sitting in the cabaret tables, they're not playing extras at the Copacabana in 1958. We honor the present moment. Here we are right now in 2025, and let's all go back in time together and experience the story of his life.

Alison Stewart: Gracie, why did you want to try musical theater?

Gracie Lawrence: Oh my gosh, it wasn't even a thought, like such a conscious decision of like, "Oh, I want to try musical theater." It was, I had done so much musical theater as a kid in school, and I had done a lot of acting. I had been on Broadway as a 12-year-old in a play, and I obviously have a band, Lawrence, and have done music my whole life. It just seemed like a very obvious marriage of a lot of my interests. I also want to point out that your radio voice is so sultry, Jonathan.

Jonathan Groff: Oh my God, Gracie.

Gracie Lawrence: You're talking in this, like, "Hey."

Alison Stewart: He's got his NPR voice.

Gracie Lawrence: [crosstalk] It's gorgeous. Anyway, just a thought.

Jonathan Groff: I like knowing new ways to make you excited.

Gracie Lawrence: It was thrilling listening to you talk. Yes, it was just very organic. I knew Alex Timbers, and he reached out to me with this opportunity, which is so unusual. I've usually had to beg for every job I've ever had. It was such an obvious yes.

Alison Stewart: Jonathan, when you come on stage, this popped into my head, I thought, theater kid in all the best sense of the word, right?

Jonathan Groff: Yes.

Alison Stewart: You're a theater kid. What does that mean to you to be a theater kid?

Jonathan Groff: Oh, my gosh. This is one of the things that I really connected about with Bobby Darin is when I started researching him as we were developing the show, and I looked at clips of him on YouTube. This is a primal performer. This is not a person. This is not a guy that is just singing songs. This is a guy that is living through his songs. I watch all the time old clips of Barbra Streisand and Judy Garland, and it mean in modern time watching a lot of videos of Beyonce, these mostly female performer. Gracie Lawrence is an incredible. I'm not even saying that to make you lol.

Alison Stewart: Sure, she's got a great voice.

Jonathan Groff: Gracie Lawrence is a primal like-

Gracie Lawrence: Thank you.

Jonathan Groff: -once-in-a-generation talent performer.

Gracie Lawrence: Stop.

Jonathan Groff: I watch clips of these people like Gracie, like Beyonce, like Judy, like Barbara. Oftentimes it's female performers that I'm drawn to as a homosexual. When I'm watching clips of Bobby Darin, here's one of the few male performers that is giving me that energy. He had this heart condition when he was eight years old. He was told he was going to die by the time he was 16. Later, he died at 37, like you mentioned. He performed because he had this need. I think that theater kid energy that you're talking about is like when people and I really relate to this. This is what you saw, I think, is like, "I have to be out there."

When we do the show at night, it's like being on drugs for me. I say at the end of the show, I bookend. I start as myself, and then I'm Bobby Darin for the show, and then I end as myself in the very final moment of the show. I say doing this, meaning standing here, connecting with the audience, is when he felt the most alive. Honestly, same. I say it about myself, and I feel that it's electric being out there.

Alison Stewart: Gracie, what is something that you didn't know about being in a musical that you now know, that you didn't really understand until you lived through it?

Gracie Lawrence: Kind of everything. I said this to Jonathan earlier, I just did this small cabaret show the other night, and it was really intimate. At this point, my band is playing in venues that are bigger than the cabaret show that I did and bigger than the theater that we perform in every night. I think something that didn't really occur to me because as a kid when I thought about Broadway, I thought, "I'm sure those are the biggest theaters there are because it feels so massive."

I think something I'm discovering while I'm doing it is actually how intimate of an experience Broadway is. Specifically, our theater is a fairly small Broadway theater. We've been lucky enough to have it be so packed with people every night who are like-- I don't know if foaming at the mouth is the right term, but so excited to be there, and you can feel everyone breathing together. I think something that I'm discovering is how intimate a 750 capacity theater can feel and what that does to a room and how to interact with it. That's been surprising to me.

Alison Stewart: My guests are Tony-nominated actors Jonathan Groff and Gracie Lawrence. We are talking about their musical, Just in Time, which is appearing at Circle in the Square. You said you watched Bobby Darin on YouTube, probably read books. What was his relationship like with his mother? Wink, wink. Because that seemed to be such a strong relationship.

Jonathan Groff: Yes, turn off the radio right now or put it on mute. Don't turn it off. This is a little spoiler alert about the story of his life. It is his life and we talk about it in the show. He grew up thinking that his mother was his mother and his sister was his sister.

Alison Stewart: You know where that goes. [unintelligible 00:09:31]

Jonathan Groff: You know where that-- Yes, okay. We'll just leave it at that.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jonathan Groff: Yes, there's a big family secret that was revealed to him in his early 30s and he had a big mental breakdown. Was never the same after that. The woman that he believes to be his mother when he was a kid was a huge influence on his life because he was born frail. He had rheumatic fever three times by the time he was eight. He was born with a weak heart and the doctor said he wouldn't live to be 16. He's growing up. His crib was a drawer in a dresser. This is how poor they were growing up in East Harlem. He, because of his frailty, he was unable to play with kids on the street. He was unable to do sports.

He spent a lot of the time in the four walls of his tiny apartment with Polly Walden, who he thought was his mother. She played him Al Jolson records, and she was a vaudeville star back in the day. She played him Al Jolson records, she taught him how to sing, she taught him how to dance. This classic American songbook music, they got him a drum set, ended up becoming not only his life's work and his life's passion, but it's what saved him as a child. It's what gave him life, I think, all the way until his final breath when he was 37. That was first given to him by Polly Walden.

Alison Stewart: What research did you do into Connie Francis?

Gracie Lawrence: A lot. I also watched a lot of interviews and a lot of videos of her singing, because I wanted to take some inspiration from her vocals, but not do an impression. I read her book, Who's Sorry Now. We also had access to this amazing documentary. There's a lot. I think what's been interesting about it is that especially for women in that time period, at the height of her career in the late '50s, you're seeing, when they're performing, it's hard to tell exactly who they really are, because I think that that's still obviously a thing as a woman and as a performer. Like, "How much of yourself are you revealing when you're performing?"

I felt it especially with Connie, because her performances are very manicured, and that was the style of that time. Her arms would move in very specific ways. She wasn't as expressive or wild in the way that Bobby got to be, but she still was a very emotive singer. Trying to figure out who she was behind the scenes when she wasn't performing was a really exciting challenge. I think a lot of it actually comes from interviews of her later in her life when she's older and she's able to reflect and be honest about the person who she was when she was 19, which is the age that we're depicting in the show. It's been like a puzzle piece game to put together who she was.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to you singing from Just in Time. This is when you bring down the house. This is My First Real Love.

[MUSIC - Gracie Lawrence: My First Real Love]

Alison Stewart: My God, Gracie.

Jonathan Groff: So good. Who is that girl?

Gracie Lawrence: [unintelligible 00:13:21] Exciting.

Jonathan Groff: So good.

Alison Stewart: This is a good question for both of you. How did you approach singing and performing and feeling without doing an impression? Who wants to go first?

Gracie Lawrence: I really took my cues from you because I remember we did a workshop last summer, and the first question I had when I walked in was I didn't really know what the spirit of the show was yet. Obviously, so much of it was on the page, but it could have been taken a few different directions. I think the first question I asked you was like, "Are you doing an impression?" I don't want to speak for you, but the answer was, "No. I'm trying to evoke the spirit of Bobby Darin." It's why you're also starting the show as yourself, to create that connection.

I really started with just copying Jonathan and deciding that if that's what he was doing, it wouldn't make sense for me to be doing an impression. It would feel very tonally confusing in the show. I think what I'm trying to do is find little moments or mannerisms or vocal-- Yes, little tidbits of her vocals that feel organic to me and actually are the connection between us. Take those and make sure I'm doing those things in the show. Then the rest of it is really playing a version of myself as well. I think everyone in the show is doing that.

Jonathan Groff: Yes, when Gracie joined the workshop last summer, it was like such a solution to what we always wanted the tone to be of the show. I'm serious, because we talked from the very beginning about wanting in our show to have one foot in the past and one foot in the present. We wanted to honor what came before us and honor the history of that time and the music. We also wanted it to feel present because Bobby Darin's magic was the present moment. This is why telling the story of his life in the context of a theater piece feels so spiritually correct with who he was, because his soul vibrated at the highest vibration in the arena of live performance.

In addition to that, you listen to Splish Flash and Mack the Knife and Dream Lover and If I Were A Carpenter all next to each other, and it sounds like four different people because he was such a chameleon as an artist. This, years ago, when we were developing it, opened up an opportunity for me because I felt like, "Oh, I don't have to do a Bobby Darin impression vocally because he sounds so incredibly different in all these different styles."

This is also why it's such a joy to honor him with this musical, is I think not everybody knows that that is all the same artist because he was really ahead of his time. This is before Cowboy Carter. This is before pop stars were known for jumping genres. He was doing that in the late '50s. He was really ahead of his time in a lot of ways. I think Bob Dylan is quoted to saying, "I thought Bobby Darin was crazy doing all these different things. I found him really frustrating, and then I realized he was a genius." I'm paraphrasing this quote.

It's really exciting to be able to reflect and look back and celebrate the artistry of this person. Then he was also-- He started as a drummer. I'm imitating or trying to evoke what he did physically trying to tell the beats of his story. Then I've listened to him so many times. I'm trying to celebrate his rhythm and his phrasing in the songs and celebrate his musicality, and even taking songs like La Mer and turning it into his version of Beyond the Sea, or taking this song, Mack the Knife, that he made this incredible, earth-shattering arrangement of. We're trying to honor his handprint that he had on his interpretations of songs as opposed to doing a carbon copy of an imitation.

Gracie Lawrence: Can I ask you a question?

Jonathan Groff: Yes.

Gracie Lawrence: I feel like in years to come, whenever we're sadly no longer doing this show.

Jonathan Groff: Yes.

Gracie Lawrence: I feel like there are things in Connie Francis's voice that I will just-- are now in my bones. There's certain phrasing that she has of falls or cries, like, "Ooh". All that stuff that I didn't really do before the show. Do you have Bobby Darinisms that you feel like you're going to sing that way for years to come?

Jonathan Groff: A thousand times. Yes. I'm still watching clips of him.

Gracie Lawrence: Yes, absolutely.

Jonathan Groff: I'm still like-- Because he really-- and Connie Francis as well. These were geniuses.

Gracie Lawrence: Totally.

Jonathan Groff: These are genius. The well is endless. Because of YouTube now, you can look. I'm still pulling stuff from him now and putting it into the show every night.

Gracie Lawrence: We text them to each other.

Jonathan Groff: Exactly.

Gracie Lawrence: This is so you.

Jonathan Groff: Yes. Even the way he moved and the way he expressed himself and just-- Yes, I'm eternally inspired by him.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to Jonathan Groff as Bobby Darin singing Beyond the Sea from Just in Time.

[MUSIC - Jonathan Groff: Beyond the Sea]

Alison Stewart: The crowd goes wild. The crowd is wild at this show. I saw this woman, you danced with her. I thought she was going to put you in her pocketbook and take you home.

Gracie Lawrence: Yes, she should have.

Jonathan Groff: She did.

Alison Stewart: It was a wild.

Jonathan Groff: This is me coming live from her pocketbook.

Alison Stewart: It was wild. She was an older woman. She winked at you, she carried on. It was something.

Jonathan Groff: It's been spiritual. I have to say I've never had the experience, the gift of being able to do a show in the audience. We are literally in the audience walking around them. Another way we're trying to evoke the memory and honor who Bobby Darin was. He would kiss people on the cheek, he would dance with them, he would spin them around, he would improvise with them. We're doing all of this as well in honor of him. What's really sweet and really gets me is we've got 80-year-olds in the audience that are tears. They're smiling and the tears are rolling down their face, because it's bringing them back. It's bringing them back.

It's such a profound gift to be able to deliver that to them. On the flip side, last week I danced with an 8-year-old girl in the front row in the audience. It's like 8 to 80, this music still slaps. To be able to experience that elation with the crowd it's unlike anything I've ever experienced before.

Alison Stewart: It's funny, I wrote myself a note because when I was there, there was a kid holding a sign that said, "Hi, dad." I was like, "Jonathan's a father. They kept that quiet." Then I realized it was your song.

Gracie Lawrence: We have something to announce.

Jonathan Groff: Yes.

Gracie Lawrence: That's why we came on here.

Alison Stewart: All Of It.

All Speakers: All Of It.

Jonathan Groff: It was Max--

Alison Stewart: Was so cute.

Jonathan Groff: Yes. Who played one of the Frank Juniors in Merrily We Roll Along. He had a sign that said, "Hi, dad." Which I saw at the very end during the curtain call, and it wrecked me.

Alison Stewart: It was so cute.

Jonathan Groff: It was so cute.

Alison Stewart: How do you feel about the audience? They seem to just really want to grab a hold of Bobby Darin.

Gracie Lawrence: Yes.

Alison Stewart: How do they feel about Connie Francis?

Jonathan Groff: Oh, I mean, go on.

Gracie Lawrence: Yes.

Jonathan Groff: It's big.

Gracie Lawrence: I feel like-- When you were talking about how diverse the ages are in our audience, it made me think about how Jonathan announces, and this is Connie Francis in the show. Sometimes, depending on where the age is leaning of that particular show, it's a [sighs]. Oh, like a big recognition.

Alison Stewart: Oh, interesting.

Jonathan Groff: Then, for some younger audiences, they might not be as familiar with Connie Francis. I feel like it's such a privilege to be able to be that introduction for some people to who Connie Francis is. Of course, she's going extremely viral right now, which I think is the coolest thing ever.

Alison Stewart: On TikTok.

Gracie Lawrence: On TikTok, which-

Alison Stewart: It's great.

Gracie Lawrence: -I think she just gave an interview where they were like, "Did you know you're going viral on TikTok?" She's like, "What is that?" I was like, "Go off. That's perfect." I think it's such a privilege. I feel this connection with the audience to either do right by their knowledge of this person or to introduce them to this person. It also made me think about how, like-- not to make this about my band, but my band has this-- Our audiences are often full families, grandparents and grandkids. I feel so lucky that my career thus far has been this thing that appeals to a lot of different age groups. I think it's such a great thing. I take a lot of pride in having music and performing music, whether it's in the show or with my band, that can reach a lot of different audiences.

Alison Stewart: Had you heard of Lawrence before?

Jonathan Groff: No.

Alison Stewart: You'd never seen them?

Jonathan Groff: No. This was my introduction to Lawrence.

Gracie Lawrence: So sad. That's so sad for you.

Jonathan Groff: It is all the years I could have been enjoying it. It's like now, in retrospect. I have to say, too, that Lea Michele's mom, Edith Sarfati, who grew up on Arthur Avenue, came by herself to see the show, because she was like, "My brothers pretended to be Bobby Darin in the living room. They grew up in the Bronx. My brothers would dance around and pretend to be Bobby Darin." She was like, "Connie Francis is our Italian goddess." She was so excited to see the show. She was like, "I have to come. I'm going to come by myself. It's a religious experience."

She came. She brought a cannoli from Arthur Avenue. She came backstage into the dressing room that I'm in. She met Gracie, and she was in tears. She was like, "You did it. You did her justice."

Gracie Lawrence: Such an honor.

Jonathan Groff: "You did it for us, for all of us that worship her. You're doing it. You're like you--" She's only going to call Gracie, Connie from now on, for the rest of Gracie's life.

Alison Stewart: I've got something special for you. When Lawrence came in as part of our Woodstock celebration, do you remember this?

Gracie Lawrence: Yes.

Alison Stewart: You performed Joe Cocker's With a Little Help from My Friends to be able to get Joe Cocker.

Gracie Lawrence: Yes.

Alison Stewart: Let's play a little bit.

Jonathan Groff: Oh, yes.

Gracie Lawrence: Oh, my God.

Alison Stewart: We play this. When we're having a bad day, we pull this out.

Gracie Lawrence: Really? That's so cool.

Jonathan Groff: Oh, let's hear it.

[MUSIC - Joe Cocker: With a Little Help from My Friends]

Jonathan Groff: Oh, my God.

Alison Stewart: Your thoughts. Your thoughts.

Jonathan Groff: Just like-- I'll say it again, once in a generation. Gracie Lawrence, come on. Clyde as well. It is like they are timeless and everything. I'm obsessed. I'm literally obsessed.

Gracie Lawrence: I feel the same way about you. I think it's why we connected with each other.

Jonathan Groff: We're obsessed with each other.

Gracie Lawrence: We're obsessed with each other.

Jonathan Groff: I'm standing there with Gracie, it's like what we just heard. You're like, "Oh, my God." Where it's just an undeniable thing. She's dangerously good because that clip you played earlier for singing in My First Real Love. I'm on stage with her, and she makes it look so easy. It's like impossible what she's singing, but it just flies out of her with the greatest of ease. It's so unbelievable.

Gracie Lawrence: Oh, my God.

Alison Stewart: We are in the countdown to the Tony Awards.

Jonathan Groff: Yes.

Alison Stewart: It was announced this morning that the cast of Hamilton will be performing at the Tonys. Are you going to be a part of that?

Jonathan Groff: Was it announced this morning?

Alison Stewart: It was, yes.

Jonathan Groff: I don't know if I'm allowed to say.

Alison Stewart: Oh, come on. It's all over Instagram, I think.

Jonathan Groff: Okay, yes, screw it. I'm in it for a second, for a hot--

Gracie Lawrence: I'm in it.

Jonathan Groff: I'm in it for a hot second.

Alison Stewart: That must be exciting to think 10 years ago.

Jonathan Groff: Yes, it's crazy to think.

Gracie Lawrence: You look exactly the same.

Jonathan Groff: I look exactly the same.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: What are you looking forward to about Tony night, Gracie.

Gracie Lawrence: Watching Jonathan being Hamilton.

Jonathan Groff: [laughs]

Gracie Lawrence: I mean, so many things. My draft. No, I'm excited about a lot of things. It's like such a dream come true to be in any way associated with this community. This is a new thing for me. I did, in some ways, start in it as well. It was like my first job was on Broadway, and it was so meaningful to me. It changed my life. It told me what I wanted to do with my life. I think being welcomed back in this way, I'm just thrilled that I am going to be in that room. I've said this a million times. I was like, "I just wanted to be someone's plus one."

Honestly, I was like, "Jonathan's definitely going to get nominated. I'll just try to be like, 'Hey, can I come with you?'" Yes. I can't believe that I'm there, and I don't have to beg you for a plus one.

Alison Stewart: This was a really big year for Broadway. This was a really-- Why do you think it was such a big year? Is it post-COVID? Do people want it back? Do they want live performance back?

Jonathan Groff: Oh, wow. I couldn't speak to why. I don't know enough about-- I know that this is monetarily the biggest year Broadway has ever had.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Jonathan Groff: I can only speak for me personally that, like exactly what you said. I did Merrily We Roll Along last year and then went right into this show back to back. Another show right in a row. It's because it's like oxygen. I think in this, our show, just in time, really speaks to this. There is just something that happens in a dark room when the lights go down and you're about to-- It's like magic time. The lights go down, and it's-- We were talking about this actually before we went on air. This very primal, special thing that happens. It's a very basic human need for storytelling, of performers telling a story to an audience and hopefully holding up a mirror.

Certainly, with our show bringing a lot of joy right now in entertainment. It's like the last place where there's no cell phones. I mean, even in concerts, like we were at Cowboy Carter on Sunday Night, which was transcendent and mind-blowing. There's phones everywhere. In the theater, you put away your phone, and the lights go down, and we all collectively, performers, band, audience, we all go somewhere together. It's such a profoundly communal experience. I think, especially coming out of COVID, it feels even sweeter.

Alison Stewart: Just in Time is at Circle in the Square. I've been speaking with Jonathan Groff and Gracie Lawrence. Thanks for coming in.

Gracie Lawrence: Thank you.

Jonathan Groff: Thank you. Thanks for having us.