Alison Stewart: This is All Of It. I'm Alison Stewart, live from the WNYC studios in Soho. Thank you for spending part of your day with us. I'm really grateful that you're here today. Just a reminder, in less than a week, we will be discussing our latest Get Lit with All Of It Book Club pick, The Dream Hotel. It's by Leila Lalami. Later in the show, she'll give us a preview of it. It is so good. I read it in two sittings. I'm listening to now. Such a good book. The event is happening next Tuesday, May 6th, and our special musical guest will be Imal Gnawa. Get your free tickets now by going to wnyc.org/getlit. That's wnyc.org/getlit. I hope to see you in person on Tuesday at 6:00 PM at the New York Public Library.

On today's show, we'll talk about how to have difficult conversations with friends, how to decode wedding dress codes, and we'll talk about the Debt Gala, an event that blends fashion and protest. That's the plan, but let's get this started with the Tony Award nominations.

[music]

Alison Stewart: This morning, Tony nominations were announced. It was a crowded season this year with 42 shows eligible for nominations and 14 new musicals competing. Audra McDonald became the most nominated performer in Tony history for her role in Gypsy. Cole Escola wore those bratty curls all the way to a nomination for Oh, Mary!, and a few big-name stars like Mia Farrow and George Clooney also received nods. Joining me now to discuss the nominations is Vulture and New York Magazine theater critic Jackson McHenry. Jackson is also the author of the newsletter, The Stage Whisperer. Nice to see you, Jackson.

Jackson McHenry: Thanks for having me. It's an exciting day.

Alison Stewart: It is an exciting day. Hey, listeners, we want to hear from you. What's a show or a performance that really blew you away this Broadway season, or what's a memorable experience you had at the theater, either because something went really right or really wrong? Our Phone number is 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can call in, you can join us on the air, or you can text to us at that number as well. There were 42 eligible shows this year. That seems like a lot. Last year, there were 37. Why do you think it was such a crowded season?

Jackson McHenry: I think it's a combination of factors. It feels like it's a moment where things that have been germinating since the pandemic have gotten to the stage, and it was also just especially this spring, a time when a bunch of Hollywood actors were doing theater. I think it's partially related to changes in that industry. It's a good time to go out and try something else. There was just a lot of people coming into New York doing things. The Box Office has been up, and it's been very full, which meant also that it's been very competitive. Been exciting to see what's made it through.

Alison Stewart: Were there any shows that you were surprised to see not nominated at all, or only get a few nominations?

Jackson McHenry: I think one of the big notable omissions is Othello, which was Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal, speaking of very big names, who were not nominated at all, the show was overlooked. The show, also, having seen it, was not entirely successful, even though it's been selling tickets for a lot of money. I think there was a little bit of old-fashioned theatrical snobbery of, "You can't kind of come in and carpet bag your way to more recognition here." Also just a testament in their category, you have people like Daniel Dae Kim, who came in for Yellow Face last fall, who was amazing, lots of Cole Escola, George Clooney, who is of course George Clooney, who still got a nomination and is getting good recognition for Good Night, and Good Luck. It's just a sign that you can't coast in in a season this busy.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about Best New Musical. The nominees are Buena Vista Social Club, a story about the Cuban Revolution. Dead Outlaw, based on a true story of a corpse. Death Becomes Her, a movie that was turned into a musical about a Faustian deal for youth, Maybe Happy Ending, two robots fall in love, and Operation Mincemeat, another true story about a plot during World War II. Those are my elevator pitches. That list of musicals, what do they have in common?

Jackson McHenry: Operation Mincemeat is also about an operation where they used a human corpse to fool the Nazis. It's been a very big season for corpses and death in an odd way.

Alison Stewart: Death Becomes Her, too.

Jackson McHenry: Death Becomes Her, and Floyd Collins, which is a musical revival, is about a man who gets stuck in a cave. There's a lot of ruminating on the afterlife. What's exciting is it's a real range of inspirations and genres. Maybe Happy Ending was originally produced in Seoul, and it's come to New York in a new production. Buena Vista Social Club is using the music from the Cuban group. Dead Outlaw was a tiny show off Broadway last year that has transferred right under the wire. You get to see a lot of different-- Operation Mincemeat is just very British in its humor and sensibility. There's a real platter of different options here.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Randy. Hi, Randy. She's calling in-- Randy, he/she/they?

Randy: Hi, it's Randy. It's a she. I'm calling to say that Buena Vista Social Club was a gem. You cannot stand. Sit in your seats. The music is so incredible. Of course, it's all about the music. You must love this Afro-Cuban music to see the show. The play was thin, well-acted, however, but the show was exhilarating. I feel that Audra McDonald in Gypsy gave me the chills. Her performance, like all of her performances, was absolutely out of this world. I was surprised that Gypsy was on TDF so early. I was surprised more people didn't see it, but if she's still in it, I highly suggest it.

My only quasi-negative comment, I adore George Clooney, I love everything he stands for politically, I love him in every way, and I love Good Night, Good Luck, the movie. I thought it was just an absolute gem. However, I do not think he deserved a nomination for Best Actor. That's said with love, but anyway, he was nominated because he's George Clooney. He was nominated because of the meaning of the play. It's almost demeaning to him, I think, to nominate him for Best Actor. Anyway, that's just me. Love the theater. Thanks for taking my call.

Alison Stewart: Randy. Thanks so much. You got a little bit of competition there as a critic, I think.

Jackson McHenry: I know I got some real analysis going on. Thank you, Randy.

Alison Stewart: I'm speaking with-- Oh, go ahead.

Jackson McHenry: Oh. I was just saying, as someone who has watched, for instance, Cole Escola since they were doing YouTube videos and parodies of Bernadette Peters, it's so wonderful and wild to me to see that they are in a race, essentially against George Clooney, for that Tony. What a range of people that are in the theater. It's great.

Alison Stewart: I want to talk to you about Best Musical Revival. The nominees are Floyd Collins, Gypsy, Pirates! The Penzance, the Musical, and Sunset Boulevard. Conventional wisdom would say it's probably between Gypsy and Sunset Boulevard, the latter having won several Olivier Awards in London. Can you make the case why each one should win, or do you think there should be an outsider? Do you think it'd be one of the other two?

Jackson McHenry: I think it's an interesting race between Gypsy and Sunset, really. I don't necessarily think that Pirates has the heat. Pirates, it was its only nomination. Floyd Collins, potentially, but it's been a more muted reception. That musical has an incredibly gorgeous score, but it is a very particular niche thing. I think with Gypsy and Sunset, it's so much mirroring the race between Audra McDonald and Nicole Scherzinger in Best Actress, which is also incredibly tight.

The feeling is, I imagine, there's a little bit more enthusiasm for Sunset as a production as a whole. It had a nomination for its director, Jamie Lloyd, who really reconfigured it. There's a lot of screens, and Gypsy didn't seem to have that enthusiasm in the nominations. George C. Wolfe, its director, wasn't nominated, but that could also put more of a glow, specifically on Audra, as this is the emissary. She's figured out how to do her take on Mama Rose. It's such the summit of musical theater roles, but I think there'll be a lot of weighing back and forth between what she's doing and what Nicole's doing and what these productions are doing, reinvestigating these pieces.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to a bit of Audra McDonald from our interview from earlier this year, where she tells the story of how she came to play Mama Rose in Gypsy.

Audra McDonald: It first came to me, not in any official capacity, but a friend of mine, late Gavin Creel, who just passed away this fall, a very dear friend of mine, was over at our house for Thanksgiving about it eight years ago. When he walked in, he said, "Honey, I want to talk to you about something." Then after dinner, he dragged me into my garage and he's like, "Honey, okay, here's what I talked about. I think you need to play Rose in Gypsy. I think you need to do it. You just need to do it. It should be a Black woman. It should be a Black woman. It should be you. You need to do it. You need to do it." He just had had a vision and was just absolutely determined.

That's what got the ball rolling. Then conversations began shortly after that with the estates to make sure that they were interested, and they were. Stephen Sondheim was alive at the time, and he said, "I think that's a brilliant idea." Then it took a while to figure out who the right person to direct it was. I knew in my heart that it needed to be George, and the estates agreed. That took eight years, but here we are.

[laughter]

Alison Stewart: That was Audra McDonald. I'm speaking with Jackson McHenry, theater critic for Vulture and New York Magazine. We're talking about the Tony nominations, which were announced this morning. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What's a show or performance that really blew you away this Broadway season? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. We got a really interesting text. It says, "So many worthy shows were left in the cold, though. Swept Away and Real Women Have Curves at the top of the list. Both should have gotten more love. Real Women Got Curves was nominated for Best Original Score with Dead Outlaw, Death Becomes Her, Maybe Happy Ending, Operation Mincemeat, and Real Women Have Curves."

I really enjoyed that show. I enjoyed the music in that show. I was excited that they got it nominated for Best Original Score. How do you think the music played in that show? Why was it so appealing?

Jackson McHenry: I think the show is so much about balancing exuberance and the context of these characters, these immigrant women in LA, and finding the exuberance in their lives, which is what that music has to accomplish. I think it's hard for a show like that that is opening right at the end of the season amid so many other things to stake a claim and get the attention. That can be very hard. I think similarly, with that text, with Swept Away, it was opened in I believe December, late last fall, and didn't have a great success at the Box Office and closed. That is also hard to remind people of.

It's tough to figure out exactly when to situate your show, when to enter into the race, and hope that you get the buzz that can build into something. It's just a tough industry.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk about Best Play. English about English as a second language and what that means. The Hills of California, four daughters reunite after their mom passed. John Proctor is the Villain, a modern take on The Crucible, ‍Oh, Mary! Mary Todd Lincoln wants to be a cabaret star, and Purpose, a family of a civil rights leader has lots and lots of secrets. Again, a really crowded field this year. What do you think of the final selection?

Jackson McHenry: I think it's a pretty solid selection. I think they did their job well of highlighting a range of interesting pieces. Hills of California is a classic, Jez Butterworth, the playwright, coming in from England, doing a big saga built around Laura Donnelly. English is already closed, but it was a beautiful piece about mostly women in Iran learning English and the complexities of what it does to have to learn another language and think in another world, and ‍Oh, Mary!, which has just been a delightful continuing hit of the season as well as Purpose, which is just great to see Branden Jacobs-Jenkins, his mind at work. He's such an interesting writer.

I don't know if it was the most successful piece, but it is so wonderfully cool to see him working stuff out. Then John Proctor and the Villain, led by Sadie Sink, which is about high school girls learning the Crucible and then their relationship. I think it's wild that it feels like John Proctor and ‍Oh, Mary! have taken the lead in this race, and neither would necessarily be what you think of as the contentional Tony frontrunner.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Mike from Parsippany. Hi, Mike, thanks for calling, All Of It.

Mike: Hi, good morning. Thanks for taking my call.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear it. Let's hear your vote-- What do you want to say?

Mike: Oh, I'm sorry. The best play this year, I believe, for my opinion, and probably the last couple of years, with the exception of the Kit Kat Club, is Operation Mincemeat. I have a bit of a bias with the accent, you can probably tell, but the play was a bizarre concept. It's strange to put that into a musical format, but they did an amazingly good job. The actors, superb. The songs, I'm not a musical fan for the most part, but the songs made sense to me as a more drama type person, and the story just flowed amazingly well on what was considered a sparse, spare set that worked again, very well.

I'm amazed at how well they put the strange story together to turn it into really quality entertainment. The ending, recognizing and memorializing the person who was behind the actual story, who was unknown until, I guess, the 1990s, was spot on. It was beautiful. It was great.

Alison Stewart: Thank you so much. We appreciate your call. We're going to talk about Best Actor in a Musical. The nominees are Darren Criss, Maybe Happy Ending. Andrew Durand, Dead Outlaw, Tom Francis, Sunset Boulevard, Jonathan Groff, Just in Time, Jeremy Jordan, Floyd Collins, and James Monroe Englehart, A Wonderful World: The Louis Armstrong Musical. I was psyched to see James Engelhardt get nominated. I got to say.

Jackson McHenry: It's a good moment of the nominators doing their job and being like, "That show didn't run, but he was given a good performance and we should recognize it." Though it does feel like Just In Time is so built around Jonathan Groff's fascination with Bobby Darin, who he's playing in the bio musical, that he's got a lot of momentum from that, but he just won a Tony last year. How much do we love Jonathan Groff? A lot, apparently. Then also, I think Andrew Durand carrying Dead Outlaw, Darren Criss, Maybe Happy Ending, and Tom Francis, who won the Olivier in London for his role in Sunset Boulevard, all also viable contenders.

Alison Stewart: Let's listen to another one of our interviews with Tom Francis from Sunset Boulevard, and this is him telling us about the big number he does, which includes him walking out in the street and the people he sees while doing it. Let's listen.

Tom Francis: In London, we had quite a few bridesmaids, which was an interesting one, but they got siphoned off. Sometimes delivery drivers, they look quite confused, and Uber Eats drivers. To be fair, you predominantly see most of-- You will see everything that I will see, but you normally see the reaction afterwards. I'll see the person being asked to move out of the way, and then the audience will see the confused look as a crazy man with a headset is singing Sunset Boulevard through the streets of New York.

Alison Stewart: Also, it's just you singing. That's what's wild. [crosstalk]

Tom Francis: If you're watching me, it does just look like I've lost it and I'm walking around singing Sunset Boulevard, but I've got the orchestra in my ears. To everyone else, it does look like I'm doing the song acapella.

Alison Stewart: Does technical difficulty-- Do voters consider that when they're voting for someone in one of these categories, the idea that he's got to walk across 44th Street?

Jackson McHenry: I think so. I think definitely there's a sense-- He's been doing that walk in the sleet, in the snow, in the rain. I think there's a lot of-- the showiness in performance becomes a big factor. To be fair to his competition, Andrew Durand in Dead Outlaw has to pretend to be a corpse for the back half of that show, and he is standing there stock still, seemingly not breathing, while he's being moved around. The character becomes part of various carnival entertainments as a corpse. I think there is a lot of, "Okay, how much are you doing? How much are you sweating? How much are you putting in the blood, sweat, and tears for all of this?"

Alison Stewart: Here's some more text, "Thought Dead Outlaw and Maybe Happy Ending were the most original shows I saw this season. Not the usual safe plots. Unique, unique, unique. Cole Escola, ‍Oh, Mary! was revolutionary on so many levels, especially in today's hostile environment towards queerness and Blackness. ‍Oh, Mary! was both a much-needed catharsis and a middle finger to fascism." This one says, "Sarah Snook, amazing heavy lifting." This one also says, "I am also very happy for John Proctor is the Villain to be recognized. I took my 13-year-old son to the show and I'm so pleased he's been able to see this and suffs. Also, Liberation was amazing. I hope it transfers."

Let's talk about Best Actress in a Musical. Jasmine Amy Rogers for Boop, Megan Hilty, Death Becomes Her, Audra McDonald, Gypsy, Nicole Scherzinger, Sunset Boulevard, and Jennifer Simard for Death Becomes Her. We already talked about Audra and Nicole, but we have both women from Death Becomes Her. They're both great in the show, they're both really funny in the show. What do you think is special about their performance?

Jackson McHenry: I think it's a remarkably balanced piece between the two of them. You get Megan Hilty who's known for Smash, she's been in a ton of things, and Jennifer Simard, who is wonderful in Company, Revival, and other performances, and they play off each other very well. They're doing the Meryl Streep and Goldie Hawn characters. Megan is the Meryl, and Jennifer is the Goldie. Jennifer has this incredible sardonic line delivery that's just so particularly her. Megan is perhaps a little bit more of the main character. She has this big breakdown. She's Madeline Ashton, the star.

It's wonderful that they're both in there. As tough as it is for the other women eligible in this category, we should say that Idina Menzel in Redwood and Sutton Foster would have both been potentially in there in a different season, as well as Helen J. Shen who is the newcomer discovery in Maybe Happy Ending. The fact that Megan and Jen are there is a sign that Death Becomes Her clicked with these people and their double act is working.

Alison Stewart: Let's hear one of the songs that they have together. This is Alive Forever.

[MUSIC - Megan Hilty, Jennifer Simard & Christopher Sieber: Alive Forever]

Mad, I forgive you, can we forget it?

'Cause I don't have the core strength

To hold on to grudges anymore

You make me crazy

Thanks for the praise

You're narcissistic

Well, you're sadistic, Hel

But here's my cold heart on display

Hold, I've got something to say

I know we're toxic

Yes, very toxic

But as the clocks tick, I realize

As time goes by

I'd rather be miserable with you, and I won't go away

I'll paint your ass

I'll help you stay

Alive

Forever

Alive even after the world that we've known is gone

When you need your face redrawn

You don't have to fear

I'll be here, now until forever

Alison Stewart: We're talking about the Tony Award nominations. My guest is Jackson McHenry, theater critic for Vulture and New York Magazine. Listeners, we want to hear from you. What's a show or performance that really blew you away on Broadway this season? 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. Let's talk to Zoe. Hey, Zoe, thanks for making the time to call All Of It. You're on the air.

Zoe: Oh, I love your show, and I love when you do theater stuff. I work on Broadway. I build props for shows. Dead Outlaw is my 59th show, and I love the show. It's hilarious. It's weird. It's pure storytelling without a lot of bells and whistles. The cast is terrific. We couldn't be happier that it's doing so well, and everybody just comes out smiling. It's all about death, but it's really funny, too. I want to mention Thom Sesma, who plays the LA Coroner. He has a Vegas number, and he is just over the top. It's his 11 o'clock number, and it blew the roof off the place. He got a huge response to that number. It was just wonderful.

Alison Stewart: Zoe, congratulations to you and the rest of the Dead Outlaw team. Let's go over a few things real quick. We talked about Best Actress in a Play. I'll list them. I don't know if we've talked about it because we already have. George Clooney, Cole Escola, Oh, Mary!, John Michael Hill, Purpose, Harry Lennix, Purpose, Daniel Dae Kim for Yellow Face, and Lewis McCartney, Stranger Things: The First Shadow. Best Actress in a Play, Laura Donnelly, The Hills of California, Mia Farrow, The Roommate, LaTanya Richardson Jackson for Purpose, Sadie Sink for John Proctor is the Villain, and Sarah Snook, The Picture of Dorian Gray. She was on earlier this week to talk about that. I was like, "Please put your feet up, please have tea, please take care of yourself."

Jackson McHenry: You talk about a role that has an incredible technical difficulty, doing all of the parts in The Picture of Dorian Gray, and timing yourself against your pre-recorded video, and working with the crew that helped manage all of the filming in that show, that is really a performance that you just watch and are exhausted by in the best way.

Alison Stewart: We got this text that says. "Gah! I'm so sad not enough people saw The Hills of California. Honestly, one of the best plays I've seen in my life, which is saying a lot.

Though I cannot decide between Laura Donnelly for Hills and Sarah Snook. Dorian Gray was also legendary." That seems like a tough category in my opinion.

Jackson McHenry: Yes, I think so. I think it feels like Sarah Snook has the edge just by dint of she is really carrying that show. The show is still running. There is the sense of her throwing her all into it every night, but it is really full, and it's wonderful to see someone like Sadie Sink, who's coming off of Stranger Things, which is a fun double thing happening. There's also the Stranger Things play, but she is committed to this really interesting play, and this part where she's fantastic. It's a very much an ensemble piece. She is the girl returning to the school after an absence that gets explained as the plot goes further. It's a wonderful group and it's great of her to join a show and be a part of the group.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Rita from Northport. Hey Rita, thanks for calling All Of It.

Rita: Oh, thank you for putting me on. I am so excited about Operation Mincemeat that I just had to call. I think it's going to become, if it's not already, a cult thing. I've heard of people seeing it 12 times. I've only seen it twice. It's Hamilton, it's Monty Python, it's Mel Brooks. Five people playing 50 different roles. It won an Olivier Award in London and all sorts of five-star things over there, and all the different ages are coming to see it. I see many young people as well. I took my 20-year-old grandson, he loved it. It's so funny and it's not like a real musical, but there are songs. They even have good voices. Terrific.

Alison Stewart: Thanks so much for calling in. "Have not laughed so much in a show as I did for Eureka Day. It was a blast." Let's also talk to Jennifer from Wantagh, New York. Hi, Jennifer.

Jennifer: Hi. I'm not a Broadway person. We just go and see what happens. We bought tickets for Sunset Boulevard and went in cold, and at first I was like, "What is going on?" It was so stripped down, and then it was like the best thing I'd seen in forever. It was art. It was a play. It was multimedia. They really leaned into the film noir. There were so many surprises, and I don't want to spoil it for people. They'll look it up, but it was amazing to go in and not know a thing. I was blown away. It was so incredible.

Alison Stewart: Jennifer, thanks for calling. Jackson, any final thoughts?

Jackson McHenry: Oh, my gosh. There's just so much to choose from. I love the caller shouting out Eureka Day, which is a play about a lefty California school debating its vaccination policy, which has only become more and more relevant-

Alison Stewart: It was so funny.

Jackson McHenry: -as time has gone on. It's so funny. Jessica Hecht, who is nominated for Future Actress in that is really wonderful in a intense portrait of a woman who reveals herself to be a vaccine denier. I think the Revival of the Play category is actually quite interesting because, without Othello in there, it's a lot of wonderful productions that are getting the glow.

Alison Stewart: Jackson McHenry is the theater critic for Vulture and New York Magazine. Thanks for joining us.

Jackson McHenry: Thanks for having me.