[music]

Kousha Navidar: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Kousha Navidar, and it's time for this.

[MUSIC - Charlie Smalls: Ease on Down the Road]

Kousha Navidar: Ease on Down the Road is one of the classic numbers from The Wiz, and here it's performed by cast members in the current revival on Broadway. The Wiz is a musical spin-off of The Wizard of Oz. The original production first opened in 1975. A few years later, the show was adapted into a movie that starred Diana Ross, Lena Horne, Michael Jackson, Richard Pryor, just to name a few. The movie quickly became a staple for families, especially Black families, around the country.

The show is in the midst of a revival right now with an updated book by Amber Ruffin. Of course, there are the catchy songs that are guaranteed to get you moving, and they're sung by some stellar talents, and we are so happy that some of that talent has eased on down Varick Street to WNYC today, right now live in studio.

With me to talk about their revival of The Wiz now on Broadway at the Marquis Theatre is Kyle Ramar Freeman who plays Lion, director Schele Williams, who is the director, obviously, and we might be graced by Nichelle Lewis a little while into the interview, who performs as Dorothy. We're going to have a full cast here. It's going to be a party. Kyle, Schele, thank you so much for joining. Welcome to WNYC.

Schele Williams: So happy to be here.

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes, yes, yes.

Kousha Navidar: Schele, welcome back to WNYC. We talked just a few weeks ago-

Schele Williams: We did.

Kousha Navidar: -about another musical that you were working on. Let's talk about Ease on Down the Road. Let's dive right into it. We heard a clip of that song, the cast singing it. It's one of the most popular songs of the show, and the first time we hear it, the audience instantly perks up. Schele, why do you think this song is such a hit specifically for musical theater?

Schele Williams: It's that bass line, that ba-dum-bum-ba-dum. The moment you hear it, you just start moving, like you can't sit still. That is what the whole show takes you on this musical journey that allows you to dance and sing, and make this show your show. You get to be yourself inside our theater when you come see it.

Kousha Navidar: Absolutely. I saw it a few weeks back, and I definitely had that sense of the audience being a part of the show.

Schele Williams: It's a party. Yes.

Kousha Navidar: It's a party. Kyle, what do you notice about the audience when that song kicks in when you're on stage?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: They start to clap. I'm like, okay, everybody's in, everybody knows this. It's just fun to watch the audience instantly recognize something, and then enjoy it along with this. Sometimes they sing with us, but I love the song because yes, it's a catchy beat, but it's words that I can live by don't you carry nothing that might be a load, and sometimes life can be a load.

[laughter]

Things are difficult. I find it useful to just honestly say that to myself because a lot of times in life you got to ease on down the road, do the hard things, but also have fun along the way. That's what the song reminds me of.

Kousha Navidar: Roll with it.

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Roll with it, baby.

Kousha Navidar: Roll with it. How many times per week do you think you sing that song, Kyle?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: 500, 2,500 times.

[laughter]

I don't know. It's been a lot. We went on the road first, so that was a 13-city tour. That was over 100 shows, close to 200, on the road. Then now we've been on Broadway for the past two months, so a lot. A lot.

Kousha Navidar: You know that bass line by heart.

Kyle Ramar Freeman: It doesn't get old. Usually--

Kousha Navidar: I was going to ask.

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Shows like the music is like, okay, we've been doing it for a while. Honestly, it is so good that I am not tired of it. It is instant joy when we get to sing it. I'm happy for that. Very grateful.

Kousha Navidar: Do you feel like you need to do anything to keep your performance fresh, maybe on Ease on Down the Road specifically, or is it just that when the music kicks in, you can't help it?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: The music is always fun. Sometimes it seems like you have to find new ways of just making it exciting, but the music is why I love the music. No, that's never old for me. I'm always happy to sing it. Sometimes I do quirky, fun things in my scene work. Schele may say, okay, pull it back, baby. That's fun.

[laughter]

Kousha Navidar: Schele, can you give an example of that? When's the last time you told them to pull it back a little bit?

Schele Williams: No. I tell you what's really beautiful, especially when you get to do a show on the road before coming in, is that the cast gets to breathe inside it and make discoveries, and it's wonderful. There's always time when you want to ebb and flow and you discover, and you go, okay, a little less of this, a little bit more of that. Inside of it, you always want them to find the newness in it. To always be present and available, and allow it to grow in an organic way.

Kousha Navidar: As a director, how do you cultivate that environment where that newness and that breathing can happen? Is there specific things that you do, a certain ethos that you bring to it, certain exercises that you do over the course of preparing?

Schele Williams: Well, there are certain parameters that you have within a scene, which is like, this is what we need to accomplish. This is what we know is our true north in this. These are things that we know that your character can and can't do. There are rules and guidelines that you have to work within, but inside that, you have the ability to play and grow. The more that Kyle has played the Lion, the more he's learned about the Lion, it's gotten in his bones. There's beautiful playfulness that happens that all feels very right every night. They all do. As they get to know each other, they have a beautiful relationship, our Tin Man, Lion, Scarecrow, and Dorothy. They're good friends on stage and off, and that makes the show better, because you really do believe that they love each other, and they really do. It's a gorgeous thing to watch.

Kousha Navidar: Kyle, when did that relationship really start to come out? Was it like that from day one, or did you feel doing the show together over and over again really brought out that informative sense of these are folks that I understand and I can perform with and I trust?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes, doing the show and learning how people work and approach how they work over time that helps, but honestly like going out, eating, talking about boyfriends, talking about humiliating stories that you've [laughs] experienced, like the human things when you talk about life and experience, that is what makes it special on stage.

It's the magic that happens offstage. It's the fact that I know Nichelle is super quiet and cute, but she's a quirky girl, she's very goofy, and those moments pop out in Dorothy in the show. It's fun to tug at those things in those scenes because you know it's in there, and then she can bring that to the moment or the character. It's really the things that happen offstage. It's the catching the flights that we had to catch early in the morning. It's just all of that stuff that makes the magic on the stage beautiful, and then finding the rhythm.

Schele Williams: Do you remember this? Do you remember when we were in rehearsals early on with Nichelle, and every time she laughed, she would cover her mouth?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes.

Schele Williams: She was like, she was very shy, and she'd cover her mouth, and I remember saying to her, I want you to be unapologetic about your joy. Watching her over time, now I don't even think she would think to do it, but for the first month or so, every time she would literally always cover her mouth when she laughed, and just watching her blossom during this period of time, these guys just swooped her up. They immediately were like, "Come on girl, we're going to lunch, come on." She had no choice. [laughs] They just enveloped her.

Kousha Navidar: It is a tight-knit cast and crew, and it sounds like very much a trusting one as well, which I'm sure is such a lovely arena in which to play in that the playfulness that you were talking about is really great.

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes, it's us four, so.

[laughter]

We got to build that chemistry. They're great humans, so it's easy to have fun with them, and everybody is kind and everybody works hard. Also, their talent is amazing. I'm just astonished. Nichelle is the most consistent performer ever. Avery is that way, who plays the Scarecrow. Phillip Johnson Richardson, who plays the Tin Man. Everybody's super consistent. Yes, I'm a friend of theirs, but I'm also a fan of just their ability. Nichelle sings in the rafters, and she would beat herself up and be like, it doesn't sound good, and then you have a standing ovation at the end of the show. If you sounded bad, we would know, baby.

[laughter]

The audience would let you know, but yes, she's super consistent, and that is what I'm amazed by because this is not an easy task to do eight shows a week and uphold a legacy, and everybody who knows The Wiz are going to come in and wait for that moment at the end of the show where Dorothy sings the big song, and she nails it every time.

Schele Williams: Every time.

Kousha Navidar: Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking about the Broadway revival of The Wiz, which is running now at Marquis Theatre. We're here with Kyle Ramar Freeman who plays the Lion and the director Schele Williams. Kyle, you mentioned legacy, you play the Lion. I want to get into the legacy of the Lion a little bit, and the talent that you bring to it. The audience just loves you. I got to know, how the heck do you manage to perform in that costume every night? Are you just sweating through the whole thing?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes.

[laughter]

The costume is actually much-- It would have been a hotter experience, but I expressly showed that it was going to be hot. She was like, "Well, we're going to change that. It won't be as unbearable." Thank God, she stepped in. It's still hot, but that's what I signed up for. I have a beard. I have a wig. It's kind of heavy. I've also lost some weight during this role. [chuckles] That's interesting, too, but it's fun. Like when I'm ever going to be a Lion who gets to wear what I'm wearing every night? It's super fun, claws on my feet. It's a fun costume to put on.

Kousha Navidar: How did you approach the physical humor and the physical embodiment of the character, because it's such a huge part of the way that you play it?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes. Well, he's a Cowardly Lion. I just imagined a toddler. [chuckles] Usually, kids think whenever they play, whatever they're imagining themselves to be, they're fully committed to that. Whatever I was going to do with the Lion, I was just going to be fully committed. He's a playful person. He's a bit vain. He loves his hair. He loves to keep his nails together.

Then I drew inspiration from Ted Ross, who did it on Broadway originally, and then, of course, in the movie, and their little tributes that I do a specific walk that is Ted Ross's, but approaching it, I just didn't think about all of that, I just thought to have fun and to go with my instincts, and see what my scene partners give me, and that informed how I reacted to them. Then once I dug into just the journey and the arc that I wanted to build with the character, things just flourished. I'm naturally goofy and funny and quirky.

Schele Williams: And fearless.

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Fearless. [chuckles] I do a lot of footwork, which my ankles pay for it from time to time, but I just have fun. That's how you have to do these things. It's like, I'm not going to take it so seriously, that I'm focused on not the right thing. I just had fun, played with the people that I was in the scene with, and then things just grew in rehearsal, and then we had the tour. Things just evolved over time, and I found different quirks that I could take from other great performances that I saw. Things that I do with my hands and faces that I make, I just grabbed all those things and created what you see.

Kousha Navidar: Schele, I'm going to ask you to talk about Kyle like he's not in the room for a second. He talks about that sense of play being so important to what he brings to the character of the Lion. Is that what really stood out for you when you were thinking about casting this with Kyle specifically? What else does he do that you really appreciate about his work?

Schele Williams: What's so great about Kyle? I remember in the audition, Kyle came back for the audition, and I was like, "I just want you to play." The first time everybody came in, they wanted to be perfect, and I didn't want people to be perfect. Perfect is not human. This show needs to have expansive imagination, and an embodiment of something that makes you remember your childhood and long for it and fight for them.

I remember in the audition, I was like, "Just have fun. Just play. Imagine that we're not here." He opened up and just showed a side of himself that was so unbelievably brave, that made him perfect for the Lion. It's interesting that a person who is supposed to exhibit no courage, needs to be the bravest of all.

Kousha Navidar: Well, it's interesting it's that toddler idea that you're talking about, right? That culture.

Schele Williams: Yes. It's showing that vulnerability, right? It comes through in such a beautiful and joyful way, and everybody falls in love with the Lion. It's wonderful.

Kousha Navidar: You mentioned how a big part of this for you was unlocking the imagination, which reminds me a lot of being a child and playing. Were you a child when you were first introduced to The Wiz? Do you remember?

Schele Williams: Yes, I was seven years old.

Kousha Navidar: Tell me sorry about that.

Schele Williams: I was in Dayton, Ohio, and my mom took me to see the national tour. Although we saw shows, I remember seeing lots of shows, but I remember The Wiz being the first show that made every molecule in my body change. It was the first time that I saw a show with an all-Black cast, that I saw a girl who looked like me, that I saw a story that I knew, but I had never been included in.

As a child in the '70s, having seen all the Disney movies and all the fairy tales, there was never anyone Black in any of those. It was always a story that I was always looking on the outside looking in. I was never looking in a mirror. For once, I was the little girl on that stage, trying to get home, meeting friends. I realized that theater could be a place for me, that I had belonging in that space. The Wiz changed everything for me. Then my senior year in high school, I played Dorothy in The Wiz. This is my third time around this [chuckles] show. Every time this show has touched my life, it has changed my life.

Kousha Navidar: Wow. That is such a fundamental element of what you have chosen to do professionally.

Schele Williams: Yes.

Kousha Navidar: Years later, they offer you the chance to direct it. What was your first reaction when you got that call, or when you knew that this was next on plate for you, next on deck?

Schele Williams: I was shocked because I didn't know that they were even doing. Somebody was always doing The Wiz. We were always like, "Oops, what's coming back? Okay." When I got the call, I said, "Are you serious? What's your timeline? What are you talking?" They said, "We want you to do it." It was a straight-ahead offer. I was like, "Okay." I said, "Okay, well, I definitely want to do it." Then I hung up the phone, and I felt this pain in my stomach, where I was like, "I'm terrified", which is such a good feeling because you want to do work that scares you. You want to do something that really challenges you.

It took me some time. I said, "Give me a little time to really think about the show, think about the approach." The original production was really entrenched in the '70s, and so really thinking about how to make The Wiz feel right for this generation. I have two daughters that are 12 and 13, and I wanted this to be their wiz, but I also still wanted it to be my wiz, and I still wanted it to be my mom's wiz. I wanted every generation to feel belonging in this piece.

Amber and I did a lot of discussion about how to create a wiz that felt timeless, that honored every version, there are like Easter eggs of the book of The Wiz, the original, of The Wizard of Oz, of The Wiz, the movie. There's all little bits all through the show that allow whatever entry point you have into this story to be real and right and true for you, while hopefully taking you on a new and exciting adventure that we've created.

Kousha Navidar: Can you talk a little bit about how you bridge that generational gap? How you thread that generational needle? I heard you say things like Easter eggs, but also that you have two daughters and you want to introduce new elements that are for them. What does that look like specifically, new elements?

Schele Williams: Well, the core value of the show is, the show is about belonging. That's universal and timeless. The new elements of the show, I was introduced to this show, they came to me in 2020. It was two months after George Floyd's murder. I was thinking a lot about what the future of my theater-making was going to be as a director and things that I knew that needed to be fundamentally important.

One of the things that I knew was that I never wanted to have a Black man on stage without them being entrenched in community. I didn't want to have a Black man on stage ever just singing and dancing, and being in any way, shape or form, disposable. It was really important that each one of them had a backstory that showed that they had purpose, that they were people that loved them, missed them, that they had things that they wanted to accomplish in their lives, like the Scarecrow, that they had family, that they were a part of something.

That was something that's very small, but also incredibly impactful because what we do on our stage is impact what happens on our streets. It's important to me that as we're weaving in something that is new, we are always thinking about the impact that it has beyond the curtain coming down.

Kousha Navidar: That's really well said. Listeners, if you're just joining us, we're talking about the Broadway revival of The Wiz, which is running right now at Marquee Theater. We're talking with Schele Williams, who was the director, and Kyle Ramar Freeman, the Lion. We're talking about that sense of community. Community is at the core of the audience experience.

I think whether you have seen The Wiz once or whether you saw it once on VHS like me before, or my fiancée, now my wife went with me who had grown up on The Wiz, very similar to what you're talking about Schele, and just knew every single line to that show. The audience is in it with you. There's a lot of clapping, laughing, responses from the crowd at certain moments, people are singing along. Kyle, what is this kind of audience feedback live in the moment give you as an actor?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: It gives me energy, because when you do two-show days, [laughter] it can be exhausting. Also, Black people express joy with volume. That is always it feels good. As a performer, you can't beg for people to laugh, but it always feels great when they do. I love an audible response. I love the clapping. I love the "Mmm-hmm, all right, Dorothy, come on." The talk back to, I just love it. We've had many of those performances because Black people, they love seeing us being on stage and being celebrated, and with the show, when people watch it, I think they're our friends. They're a part of the troop too. When we make it to Emerald City, there is an applause when those gates open because they are rooting for us to get to The Wiz.

It just feels like one big party with the audience a lot of the times because in their minds they're on this journey with us and they are friends with us, and that's beautiful that the show can give that to them.

Kousha Navidar: As you started doing the show and you got that feedback in the moment, did it adjust your performance at any point? Is there a specific moment where you thought, oh, I should hype up this element of the Lion, or let me pull this back because it's going to get the laugh a little later on? Anything specific in your performance that you adjusted?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Sure. When you rehearse--

Schele Williams: It's just me going clapping, clapping, clapping. Ha ha ha ha ha.

[laughter]

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes. We're like, "Oh, this is great. This is funny." We're amongst ourselves. Sometimes the audience will surprise you, and they're like, "We don't think that's funny." You guys thought it was funny. Yes, there's a lot of adjusting that happens because now you're doing it with people who have never seen this show yet. Yes, there are things that I pulled back, that I amped up. My timing changed slightly because I got a better laugh with this line if I said it this way versus that way if I paused for that. The audience informed a lot of how I'm playing the role just so that they get a full experience the way that they deserve.

Kousha Navidar: How about the choreography? Because JaQuel Knight choreographed the show. He's been a frequent collaborator with folks like Beyoncé. What has the experience been of acting out JaQuel's choreography? What about it works for you?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: JaQuel is from Atlanta. He is from the South. He has a way of moving that just makes you want to move. I was a fan of JaQuel before I even started to work with him, so I knew exactly who he was. I knew exactly what he contributed to pop culture, so I was excited to do the choreography that he put into the show. It is just fun choreography to do. Our Ease On Down the Roads are fun.

He gave us a choreography, of course, but he allowed us to implement ourselves and have a bit of freedom, especially in the Ease On Down the Roads. Well, the one that I join in. That's always fun when a choreographer can see what you contribute and let you breathe in the choreography that they've created. What he does I grew up doing. I don't do it as well, but I recognize it. That's different for Broadway, what he brings, because he comes from the Beyoncé's and the Megan Thee Stallion's, and all these people, all these other pop artists. It's a fun thing to get to do every night.

Kousha Navidar: I want to make sure that I touch on Emerald City, which I think brought up a few minutes ago. I want to dive into it a little bit. Dorothy's journey leads all the way up to Emerald City meeting The Wiz who's played by Wayne Brady. His entrance gets one of the most enthusiastic applauses of the night. Schele, as a director, what did you know you had to get right about our introduction to Emerald City and The Wiz?

Schele Williams: Well, you spend the whole show talking about it, so there has to be some grandeur to it, and it has to feel a little bit magical, but it also has to feel like a little bit off, so that the audience's buildup has overhyped it in their brain. If you really thought about it, it is not as amazing as you think it should be. It really is 90% you and 10% us, and that's what we realize he is. He is 90% what you want him to be and 10% truth. There was just a little bit of, how are we creating something that gives you a false sense of grandeur, but also is always telling you two stories at one time?

Kousha Navidar: When you went to Wayne Brady to think about how that sense of 90% versus 10%, was there something specific you told him in his approach or something that already really worked that you wanted to bring out?

Schele Williams: Yes, we talked about how, and each one of the, we call them the heroes, the Lion, Tin Man, Scarecrow, and Dorothy, that he has a different tact with each one of them. That he looks at them, sees where they're vulnerable, and then finds the language and the pace and the cadence that speaks to what their need is. He deftly does that with all of them. If you're an actor or you're a director or you're really watching, you go, "Oh my gosh, he's completely different with that person.

He gets to Dorothy and he's like, "I'm going to take you on a little journey." He separates her from the crowd, has just a one-on-one, talks about his story. He really changes his tactic completely with her. He appeals to the Lion's vanity. He appeals to the strength of the Scarecrow, and talks all about the Tin Man. He props them up in ways that they feel like they need it. It's very interesting and very smart the way he plays it.

Kousha Navidar: Putting all of this together, Kyle, one of the last questions I want to ask you, what do you hope is the message that people walk away with? Is it that sense of community? Is it that sense of having a party, knowing how to ease on down the road? What is it that you hope folks walk away with?

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Yes. Don't carry anything that might be a load. Also, there is beauty in being strange. It's okay to feel lost. As long as you are able hopefully to find people who are like you, who may not always fit in, who have their own set of challenges, who are awkward like you, find the people who support you and love you and will uplift you and will get you to the place that you desire to be that holds you accountable, that just keep you grounded. Dorothy encourages the Lion to keep going. I know this was scary, but we are here with you, and we can do this thing together. Hopefully, that's what people can take away from this show, is that find a community, find the people who support you, and do the thing scared anyway.

Kousha Navidar: Sometimes you just need an adventure to show you what you're made of, which was one of my favorite lines from that show. We have just under a minute left, but Schele, I understand you have a new book that just came out.

Schele Williams: I do.

Kousha Navidar: It's Your Legacy Begins: First Words To Empower. Can you tell us quickly a little bit about it?

Schele Williams: Yes. It's a prequel to my original book, Your Legacy: A Bold Reclaiming of Our Enslaved History. This book, it's the first words to say to a young child, the first words of intelligence, of grace, of integrity. It's words to imbue them that they have great purpose in this world and they are going to do great things.

[music]

Kousha Navidar: We've been talking about the Broadway revival of The Wiz running now at the Marquis Theatre. We've been here with Kyle Ramar Freeman, who plays the Lion, and director Schele Williams. Thank you both so much for joining us.

Kyle Ramar Freeman: Thank you.

Schele Williams: Thank you.

 

Copyright © 2024 New York Public Radio. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use at www.wnyc.org for further information.

New York Public Radio transcripts are created on a rush deadline, often by contractors. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of New York Public Radio’s programming is the audio record.