Title: The Search for the Real Mavis Beacon

Alison Stewart: This is All Of It on WNYC. I'm Alison Stewart. A new film tries to unveil what happened to Mavis Beacon, or at least the woman who portrayed her, from the 1980 CD-ROM typing program, Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing. In the film. Two DIY detectives, Jazmin Renée Jones and Olivia McKayla Ross, search for the person who no one has heard from for decades, while asking important questions about her true identity, about the early use of artificial intelligence, representation in tech, and the program's impact on a generation of users.

Throughout their investigation, we also get a candid look at their journey as the two of them run into roadblocks, missing clues, and manage their own emotions and expectations. Seeking Mavis Beacon review for Variety described the film as thoughtful and says, "Bending the conventional rules of movie-making, Jones brings a fresh generational perspective to the project. Both she and Ross are young people comfortable with proliferation and dominance of technology in their lives to the extent that they make virtual heroes of symbols with their computers." Director Jazmin Jones and associate Olivia Ross join us now to discuss the new film Seeking Mavis Beacon. It opens in theaters this Friday. Jazmin, Olivia, welcome.

Jazmin Renée Jones: Thank you so much.

Olivia McKayla Ross: Thank you so much.

Alison Stewart: Listener, we'd love to hear from you. Do you remember using the software Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing? How did you find the program? What were some of your favorite games? When did you realize that maybe Mavis Beacon isn't a real person? Give us a call 212-433-9692, 212-433-WNYC. You can reach out on social media @AllOfItWNYC. Jazmin, where were you when you first encountered this program?

Jazmin Renée Jones: I was about eight years old, and I couldn't tell you if I first played it at home. My dad had purchased the game from Costco, but also it was involved in our computer operations third grade curriculum. I was getting exposed to Mavis Beacon's teachings both in an academic setting and in a personal home setting.

Alison Stewart: Jazmin, when did you realize that Mavis Beacon was a fictional character?

Jazmin Renée Jones: You know, I don't-- I wish, because I made a whole movie about it, that there was this, like, lightning rod moment where I was like, who is she? She's not real. What happened? I actually compare her to Santa Claus or I guess, you know, Aunt Jemima, where it's like, when you're a kid, you think these people are real. Then at some point between, like, your maturation, you come to the realization that this is not a real person. The first conscious question that I had about Mavis Beacon was in 2018 when I was like, wait, why was she Black?

It was that question that led me to Google. Then I realized that the woman who modeled for the game, no one had ever spoken with her. There was a lot of really interesting and salacious articles about her.

Alison Stewart: Olivia, you joined the project a little bit later on. What made you want to explore her story? Mavis Beacon's story?

Olivia McKayla Ross: I just really felt super connected to the idea of a mythical typing tutor, someone who was so proficient and confident on the keyboard of that archetype of a person being fake and kind of having this really exciting legacy. When I met Jazmin, they had been working on this project, and they presented the concept to my class. I was taking classes at the school for poetic computation. In class, Jaz spoke about, "You know, like, I've been working on this film. These are the ideas behind it." That was my first contact with Mavis Beacon, because I was born in the early 2000s, and so much of my learning how to type was just from being tossed in and, like, expected to type.

I took a few typing lessons in school, and I had a software on my personal family computer, but it was never anything so colorful as Mavis Beacon. It was really through that encounter with Jaz and going online, checking old forums, going on the Way Back Machine that I discovered this very rich and colorful world.

Alison Stewart: Let's give people a little bit of context. Mavis Beacon, the character, was born in the garage in Sherman Oaks, California, in a garage. It's more than three decades ago, but people believed, Jazmin, she was a real person. Tell us about some of the things you heard about Mavis Beacon sightings throughout the years.

Jazmin Renée Jones: Yes, there was this really fun Mandela effect that would happen where even the software developers, they've told us, when they would go to tech conferences, their rival company, different people would come up and be like, "Can't believe you got Mavis Beacon. We really tried to book her," or Mavis Beacon would be invited as a keynote speaker at different events. People just had a really hard time coming to terms with the fact that this Black woman who they had become very familiar with and had this parasocial-- I mean, limited parasocial relationship, but a relationship nonetheless.

People had found that to be a really tough pill to swallow. I also, I love Internet culture, meme culture. I think this idea of the critical fabulation around this fictional character is a really rich jumping off point to talk about how Black women, how marginalized bodies in general, are represented and consumed online.

Alison Stewart: Let's take a call. Brian is calling in from Ardsley. Hi, Brian. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Brian: Yes, hey, hi. How you doing? I just wanted to call in and share. I was born in the '80s, extremely old compared to the filmmakers here. But, Allison, you could probably relate.

Alison Stewart: Yes.

Brian: Yes, I learned to type with Mavis Beacon when I was in fifth grade, something like that. We had a computer lab at school, and for whatever reason, I went to the computer lab instead of recess, and I learned to type. Now, 30 years later, I'm a computer programmer.

Alison Stewart: Like the story. Brian. Thank you so much for calling in. We're talking to Jazmin Renée Jones and Olivia McKayla Ross. Their film is called Seeking Mavis Beacon. It opens in theaters this Friday, August 30. Olivia, the real woman on the cover of Mavis Beacon was originally a model from Haiti. How did she become the face of the program?

Olivia McKayla Ross: The actual story, as it has been told to reporters in the past, has been that the developers encountered her at a Saks Fifth Avenue behind a perfume counter and just were totally floored by how beautiful and elegant she was and offered her the position modeling for this game. They didn't have a title and name of the game yet. They just were really in the early stages of figuring out what things were going to be. Yes, they were taken by how, by the way she held herself and thought that she would be an excellent choice.

There are a few articles that talk about how, like, the length of her nails became a bit of an issue in terms of, would people believe that she was this fast typer as she said with, depending on, you know, how long her nails appeared? That's a detail that we were never able to confirm if it was true. [laughter] It seems very likely that it is not. Similarly, a lot of details about that original origin story are a bit debunked in the adventure that Jaz and I go on. The kind of foundational myth is that she was this, yes, checkout counter perfume saleswoman.

Actually, things get much deeper and much more rich as we continue to unfold little nuggets in the film.

Alison Stewart: Yes, Jazmin, in the film, you discuss how Mavis Beacon, as one of the few Black female characters in educational software. How important was that for you personally, and what did you want to investigate about that?

Jazmin Renée Jones: You know, as I was working on this film, I actually realized through other people's testimonies that I was like, "Oh, my God. Mavis Beacon was my first Black teacher." That's just so significant. You know, we always talk about how much representation matters, and I do think this film is about really unpacking how much does representation matter? For me, we had this family computer, and my parents could not teach me how to use it, and so I had this software, and that is what allowed me to communicate with other people, for better or for worse, you know, AIM.

I don't know if AOL Instant Messenger was the best place for a young person to be hanging out, but also just in terms of expressing myself. Beyond this project, both Olivia and I are practicing artists and artivists who spend a lot of time thinking about this idea of digital insecurity and our autonomy. Yes, I think Olivia has coined this term that we come to define in the film of a cyber doula or somebody who stewards a healthy relationship to technology. With that phrase, I was like, oh, my God. Mavis Beacon was my first cyber doula. She was my cyber doula, and she is the reason that I feel comfortable even making movies the way that I do today.

Alison Stewart: Let's talk to Claudia from Maplewood, New Jersey. Hi, Claudia. Thanks for calling All Of It.

Claudia: Hi, thank you for having me on. My husband was listening, and he's like, "Turn this on. You have to call." It was the late '90s, and I had been temping in New York City soon after graduating college. I've been hunting and pecking my whole life, and nobody had a problem with it. I had no trouble getting these longer term temp jobs in the city. Then my husband, he wasn't my husband yet. We were moving to London, so he'd go to grad school, and I had a six month work visa in which I was supposed to get a job. I went right to the temp agencies again.

Suddenly, my 45 words a minute really mattered, and I couldn't get a job, so I totally panicked, and I went, right after I got out of the temp interview, I went to a RadioShack in London and found Mavis Beacon. I guess it was probably on a disk. I took it home, and I just kind of went nuts with my effort. In about two weeks, I'm not even kidding, I'd almost doubled my typing speed because I'd freed my eyes. I went back and got a great temp job, like, right away.

Alison Stewart: Love the story.

Jazmin Renée Jones: I love this.

Olivia McKayla Ross: That is fantastic.

Alison Stewart: I do [crosstalk] Yes. I love this text we just got from somebody. "I'm 72. I use Mavis Beacon to learn to type as an adult." Congratulations to you as well. My guests are director Jazmin Renée Jones and producer Olivia McKayla Ross. Their new film is Seeking Mavis Beacon. All right, so there's so many different levels in this film. One of the big parts is you're trying to find the actor, the model who played Mavis Beacon. Let's listen to a little clip from the film. This is the two of you recreating a timeline for the possible whereabouts of Renée. She's the woman who plays Mavis Beacon, who originally portrayed her on the cover. Let's listen.

Jazmin Renée Jones: Let's just go through what do we know to be true.

Olivia McKayla Ross: We know the location where they met Renée L'Esperance.

Jazmin Renée Jones: We know that Les Crane walked in with Joe Abrams, saw Renée L'Esperance behind a perfume counter or near a perfume counter at Saks Fifth Avenue-

Olivia McKayla Ross: -and says, "You should model for my program, and I'm going to pay you $500." Sometimes Joe Abrams was present, sometimes Joe Abrams was not.

Jazmin Renée Jones: Once Les Crane died, it became Joe Abrams who was telling the story primarily of Mavis Beacon.

Olivia McKayla Ross: Joe Abrams said that when he last spoke to Renée L'Esperance, she was thrilled about the success and had started to be recognized.

Jazmin Renée Jones: I don't trust anything Joe Abrams says, but that would have been in 1996.

Olivia McKayla Ross: Yes.

Alison Stewart: That's a very telling subject. "I don't trust anything that Joe Abrams said." Jazmin, in the course of making the film, without giving too much away, how did you find the men who said that they hired Renée to be Mavis Beacon?

Jazmin Renée Jones: I mean, much like we find many things in this terrifying digital age, we found their contact information online. Actually, this is from early before you see a scene where we're able to confront them indirectly about some of these suspicions. Ultimately, I have to say, as a first-time filmmaker, first-time investigator, I have been so grateful for how they have cooperated with the investigation. This movie is full of very interesting characters. I think at the end of the day, we're getting-- Olivia and I are trying to get to the bottom of how truth gets made and how do you hold space for multiple truths?

You can hear in this clip that Olivia and I had our doubts. We had our doubts, and some of those were confirmed, and some of those were also broken open. I think this film is also about the human condition. I just love people, so even when I'm having these really intense interrogations, I'm also connecting on a human level with these people. It's a conundrum. I'm a Gemini. For any listeners at home, I'm a Gemini, so I'm always holding space for multiple truths of, like, I don't trust these developers, and I also am having so much fun talking to them about my favorite character.

Alison Stewart: Olivia, something really interesting about the film is that you were both central to the narrative. At time, we see your frustration, milestones in your life about what to do next after school, even disputes with the owner of the buildings that you have your space in. When did you realize that these elements outside of the search for Mavis Beacon would become essential to the narrative of this documentary?

Olivia McKayla Ross: I think for a while, we had always kind of had the idea that the documentary would need to be self-reflexive, that there are certain things that are, like-- I don't know if you or any listeners at home remember Louisa May Alcott writing Little Women. She has an anecdote where she talks about how she found difficulty publishing it because who wants to read a story about four little women living in New England? In reality, it's those kinds of heart-centered stories about the trials and tribulations that end up really, really connecting to people in a deep way.

We felt like in order for the film to really be a kind of offering to the actress, to Renée, who is someone that Jaz and I have a lot of really deep respect for and really admire, the legacy that she created through portraying the role of Mavis Beacon. In order for us to kind of be in right relation, we needed the documentary to be able to stand on its own two feet as a testament to that effort of searching and to be a holistic picture of who we were and who are the people that she would be in dialogue with if she chose to be a part of our project.

Alison Stewart: Jazmin, this film has a very specific aesthetic, has a really cool look to it. How would you describe the look of it?

Jazmin Renée Jones: You know, it's a neon noir. Structurally, Olivia's heard me make this comparison a million times, but, this film is birthed from the mind of somebody who is binge watching and kind of hate watching true crime documentaries while also, like, doom-scrolling on TikTok. It is maximalist, it is dense. I also like, you know, I love gritty, masculine noir movies, and I love painting with color. I think that when I call this thing neon noir, instead of playing with shadows, we're playing with color. Olivia and I were able to construct this little headquarters that is a mind meld for both of us in a dilapidated warehouse in West Oakland.

That becomes a bit of a central location and a conflict within the film. Yes, I think I'm properly crediting Mandy Harris Williams when I say, "The revolution will be irresistible." It's like we're really trying to make these didactic conversations around cyber feminism seductive.

Alison Stewart: The name of the film is Seeking Mavis Beacon. We've been speaking with its director, Jazmin Renée Jones, producer Olivia McKayla Ross. It opens in theaters this Friday, August 30. Thank you so much for your time.

Jazmin Renée Jones: Thank you. This is so much fun. To the callers, thank you. If you weren't able to speak, we actually have a hotline. Olivia, do you want to shout out our number?

Alison Stewart: Real quick.

Olivia McKayla Ross: Yes, we're 575-Seeking.

Alison Stewart: Thanks a lot. There's more All Of It on the way. We'll talk about a new podcast which explores the North Korea hacking of Sony Pictures.

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